Smithfield Horse Market

Cat Melodeon

mike kelly wrote: »

they can do pretty much what they want. Whenever there is a traveller funeral in a rural town, the gardai order all publicans to close until the travellers have left.

This is a load of rubbish. I live in a rural area with a large local Traveller population. The two pubs here have never closed for any funeral, settled or Traveller. Some pubs in other areas do close, but because of the fears/prejudices of the owners, not because of any Garda directive.

I used to live in D7 in the 90s and would go down to the market nearly every month just to hang out and watch the crack. What goes on there now is quite different to even 15 years ago, and it is certainly not all the fault of Travellers.

During the boom years, every Tom, Dick and Harry all over the country was getting a horse or pony. Many of these had no previous experience of horse ownership. Some bred from their animals, contributing to a glut of mediocre quality horse stock. When time got hard, they couldn't get anything for their horses and some just dumped them. Many of the horses abandoned in the past 3 years to forage for themselves or starve were not owned by Travellers but by settled folk with aspirations of joining the horsey set. Travellers have dumped them too, I'm not disputing that, but it's not restricted to them. The glut of horses created by irresponsible owners across society has contributed to the situation where any child can now pick up an animal for under €10.

The main difference I see at Smithfield is that there are way fewer genuine horse traders and way more scumbags who have horses simply because it's cheap to buy them and they can. I don't see why regulations can't be introduced (and enforced where they already exist) so that all owners have to be registered (same as the existing herd number scheme for farmers), all horses have to be licenced and hold passports/be chipped, and that ANYONE who does not comply will have their animal seized until they sort out the paperwork. It should not have to cost a fortune to get registration/licences, but individuals should have to show that they have the means to care for their animals.

As for the market, it should continue but the square should be cordoned off and only those traders who are registered and who are in possession of relevant documents for their animals should be allowed entry, with traders having to pay a fee to enter the same as stall holders at any other market in Ireland. This should not be too difficult to enforce. Why the DSPCA, DCC, Pavee Point, the ITM, the residents' associations and the Dept of Agriculture aren't working more closely together on this is beyond me. The horse market is a valuable tradition and should not be allowed to degenerate into the mess it is becoming.


And just on the point of Travellers ethnicity, they ARE a separate ethnic group whatever your opinions of that. I has been recognised by the EU (RAXEN) and by the UN (which has raised serious concerns about Traveller rights in Ireland), but recognition is consistently resisted by the Irish state as it would end up costing a lot of money. If Travellers' ethnic status was recognised it would hopefully contribute to getting rid of a lot of the casual bigotry that exists against Travellers in Ireland, would enshrine their rights in law and would hoopefully mean that those elements of Traveller society that actually do cause problems could be singled out and dealt with without tarring all Travellers with the deviant label.

R P McMurphy

I think the horse fair is only there since the 70s, before that it was a market for agricultural machinery or something dating to the 40s

Cat Melodeon

mike kelly wrote: »

next time, wear hula hoops ear rings

seriously, you were lucky they did not assault you. they have gone into rape and sexual assault in a big way in the last few years. find another route to the gym in future

WTF are you on about? There is a big difference between lads wolf-whistling and making lewd comments and actually assaulting and raping someone in broad daylight. I'd like to see a source that actually backs up your claim that 'they have gone into rape in a big way'. What a pile of bigoted horse manure.

maximoose

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Not every aspect traditional aspect can be sacrificed so that people who bought overpriced apartments in the boom can be in 180,000 grands worth of negative equity rather than 200,000 and not have to run into any undesirables while there nipping into fresh for some massively overpriced shopping.

What has that got to do with anything? You're making the assumption that everyone in this thread who is complaining about the market lives in the smithfield square apartments, and even then it's irrelevant.

I have lived in 3 different areas around Smithfield and I'm now quite far up Prussia street.. and the fallout from the monthly meeting is all over the place, not confined to the one square block of Smithfield. Walking into town today from the top of Prussia St. I was dodging horse Sh*te on the pavements from my doorstep all the way down to the quays. Call it "the biggest load of bull****" if you like, but I've had 4 years experience and I'm now a manure dodging pro... yes, it will be there for 2-3 weeks.

If the council cant shut it down they should at least have the means in place to clean up the mess afterwards.

Also... Fresh isnt that overpriced

mike kelly

on liveline now

mike kelly

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

WTF are you on about? There is a big difference between lads wolf-whistling and making lewd comments and actually assaulting and raping someone in broad daylight. I'd like to see a source that actually backs up your claim that 'they have gone into rape in a big way'. What a pile of bigoted horse manure.

what about all the rapes in southhill?

bitter_lemon

****ing knackers :mad:

Cat Melodeon

mike kelly wrote: »

what about all the rapes in southhill?

Post a link please. I'm not aware of there being a large number of rapes committed by Travellers in Southhill or anywhere else. I'll gladly retract my accusation of BS if you point me to the evidence.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Guys watch the ol' language eh!.

murrayp4

Does anyone actually know how long the fair has been held?
Some people say since the '70's while others say the last 200 years??

The Waltzing Consumer

murrayp4 wrote: »

Does anyone actually know how long the fair has been held?
Some people say since the '70's while others say the last 200 years??

From the Irish Times:

"The council has for more than a decade sought the closure of the fair, but it has been blocked by an ancient market right to hold sales on the land, asserted by horse traders. Smithfield was laid out as a market area in the mid-17th century, and from 1664 the site was used primarily as a cattle and hay market, but horses were also sold periodically.

Horses were sold on a regular basis in Smithfield from the late 1800s onward, but the horse fair in its current incarnation dates from the early 1960s, when the area was in a state of considerable dereliction."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0307/breaking16.html

JimsAlterEgo

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

From the Irish Times:

"The council has for more than a decade sought the closure of the fair, but it has been blocked by an ancient market right to hold sales on the land, asserted by horse traders. Smithfield was laid out as a market area in the mid-17th century, and from 1664 the site was used primarily as a cattle and hay market, but horses were also sold periodically.

Horses were sold on a regular basis in Smithfield from the late 1800s onward, but the horse fair in its current incarnation dates from the early 1960s, when the area was in a state of considerable dereliction."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0307/breaking16.html

change the law

mikemac

There are large areas in North County Dublin which are very rural. Fingal will own some of this land

I'm sure DCC own fields around the city too.
Find a site and ship the fair out there. I seem to remember a circus around the city but I forget exactly where it was, possibly out by Kilmainham I think.
Now there's a site just waiting to be used

R P McMurphy

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

change the law

Wouldn't need to change the law, just very strictly enforce existing ones to make it impossible to trade there.

I am definitely open to correction on the 70s date. Was just something I heard before by word of mouth, same with the agricultural machinery sales.

Monty Burnz

mike kelly wrote: »

u were lucky. If you had to give evidence against these fellows, they would make your life hell

It's their culture to have no respect fot the law and do whatever the hell they want, smashing up places and staging pitched battles. If you don't like it, you are worse than a Nazi.

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

If Travellers' ethnic status was recognised it would hopefully contribute to getting rid of a lot of the casual bigotry that exists against Travellers in Ireland, would enshrine their rights in law and would hoopefully mean that those elements of Traveller society that actually do cause problems could be singled out and dealt with without tarring all Travellers with the deviant label.

By what magical mechanism would this come about? I'm all for equality before the law - it's travellers that seem to have a problem with it.

Sunnyisland

As usual in Ireland we will wait until some one is killed before prober regulation & policing is brought in, Talking about closing the stable door after the horse bolts...........

Darlughda

mike kelly wrote: »

next time, wear hula hoops ear rings

seriously, you were lucky they did not assault you. they have gone into rape and sexual assault in a big way in the last few years. find another route to the gym in future

Post reported. Unbelievable that a Dublin City moderator has posted on this thread and not seen fit to even comment on this vile bigotry.

Monty Burnz

Darlughda wrote: »

Post reported. Unbelievable that a Dublin City moderator has posted on this thread and not seen fit to even comment on this vile bigotry.

To be fair, if it's bigotry (and the comment does sound ridiculous), the reason that it exists is in part because of behaviour such as...

..I only walked into the Square to head to the gym and had a group of teenager boys approached me (one on horse) and started making really crude comments (use your imagination) to me.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Darlughda wrote: »

Post reported. Unbelievable that a Dublin City moderator has posted on this thread and not seen fit to even comment on this vile bigotry.

Stop getting yourself in a twist.

The thread is locked and everyone's contributions to it will be looked at.

Next time you've a problem with how a thread is moderated in the DCF bring it to the moderators attention via a PM, your here long enough to know that.

Right the thread is opened again.. With a shot across your bows (everyone).

First off, this kind of language isn't welcome in the DCF - pity I can't ban for stupidity.

mike kelly wrote: »

next time, wear hula hoops ear rings

seriously, you were lucky they did not assault you. they have gone into rape and sexual assault in a big way in the last few years. find another route to the gym in future

Be very careful and never pull this crap here again.

The word 'Knackers' or 'Knacker'.. Its NOT a racist term, but it IS derogatory and causes offence to people using this forum

I'm as guilty as the next in using it in describing members of the traveling community. But I don't do it online where its liable to cause offence.

If you don't like how travelers behave there are other ways to describe their carry on without resorting to language which is liable to cause offence on the forum.

Right carry on, but if your going to post something which you think for a moment might cause offence - pause and think, because next time there's gonna be bannings from the forum.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Reopened and guys, READ THE POST ABOVE ^^.

cosmic

DCC have rejected the motion to ban it:

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-city-council-reject-motion-to-close-market-after-shooting-496348.html

John_Rambo

Traditions are great, I hate stifling health and safety laws, but lets face it, Smithfield is no longer a derelict site, it's evolved in to a populous living quarter. I don't think it's suitable any more for a market with large domestic animals and a minority of horse people who simply can't control themselves and seem to have no regard for anyone.

To the people who are sneering at residents and taking a tough sheet attitude, cop yourselves on with your "I'm all right Jack". The market is obviously not what it was years ago and residents deserve a quiet safe life regardless of what they spent on their home, regardless of what they owe, regardless of where they are from and wether they are renting, or paying a mortgage. Guns, slashhooks, shots fired, abuse etc... are not part of a market, It's not suited to a city centre.

Moving it to somewhere like the Phoenix park might be a runner, it could properly be corralled, it would be easier to clean up afterwards, there would be grazing, it would be easier on the animals, there would be less crowding leading less spooked animals, there could be galloping, trotting areas, maybe a one gate in, one gate out could give the animal welfare people more of a chance to vet what is going on.

As usual it's a typical situation where a few people ruin it for everyone.

Twee.

It quite very simply is not safe to have animals of that strength confined in a place like that. Is there access to running water? Are there regulations regarding who's going in and what they're bringing home? The treatment of horses and ponies in this country is appalling, to say the least. I don't mean just from the Traveling Community here, I mean in general. Search for Horse over in the Animal and Pet Issues forum here and you'll see lots of disturbing threads about their treatment. There needs to be a clamp down on horse ownership. They should require licenses like dogs. Having worked with horses in the past, they are not easy animals to keep, and certainly not cheap.

As mentioned above, Smithfield is now an urban residential area. It is not a market. No one should be made scared to leave their own home because a group of people have loaded in for the day. My ex used to live around the area and good lord, the state of the place on a Sunday night.

**** tradition. It's not just gun shots that startle horses. It can be any loud noise. People were seriously lucky that they didn't get trampled on Sunday. It's gonna be too late when they decide to do something about it. If the horses bolt, where can they go? Down the Luas tracks, into gardens, up North King Street? not good options.

If the DSPCA can't afford to be out there checking on animal welfare, DCC can't afford the clean up, and the members of this market can't keep it civil, respectful, safe and clean, well, then there shouldn't be a market.

Cat Melodeon

Monty Burnz wrote: »

By what magical mechanism would this come about? I'm all for equality before the law - it's travellers that seem to have a problem with it.

By enshrining the rights of minorities in legislation and by introducing anti-discrimination laws, it would send a clear signal that we respect the rights of minorities in Ireland. Members of minority communities would be able to take action against discrimination as it happened. Solid intercultural measures would have to be taken (such as changes to how we do education, implementing Traveller accommodation provisions that have been agreed upon but not enacted since the 1990s, changes in employment law) that would ensure that Travellers have access to the same opportunities as the rest of us enjoy. If you are in denial about equality of opportunity, you are in denial about the existence of a problem so you might as well not read any further. In fact, the second line of what you posted above clearly shows you are in denial.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm all for equality before the law - it's travellers that seem to have a problem with it.

The majority of Travellers are law-abiding citizens. This sort of remark stinks of bigotry and is typical of a racism-denier blaming the racialised group for acting in a way that deserves racism. And before you go off on one, I do not deny that the Travellers causing the havoc at Smithfield do not deserve to be prosecuted for their actions, I am simply pointing out that not all Travellers engage in this sort of behaviour. If you were to carry that through, then every single graduate of Blackrock College is a murderer, every single obstetrician is a mutilator, every single Irish person is a rapist or a drug dealer or a prostitute. You can't judge an entire society by it's bottom-most layer.

For those who don't believe that using derogatory language against a distinct group of people is racist, you have a conveniently narrow definition of what does and does not comprise racism. Different minority or marginalised groups become racialised through the words and actions of the dominant group in society. Thus Jews, although not a 'race' have been marked out and made different throughout history. The Irish are not a 'race', but their treatment in the UK in the 60s was typical of racialisation and racist behaviour resulted.

Anyone who takes the actions of a small number of people from any distinct group and accuses the entire group of being guilty of similar behaviour when that is patently not true is guilty of racism. This includes using terms that are acknowledged as being a derogatory description of that particular group, whether or not is is socially acceptable in your particular circle of acquaintances to use that term in other contexts. There is NO difference in using the word 'knacker' and using the 'n' word to describe blacks. This does not take away from the history of black oppression but it should cause Irish people to really look at themselves and their attitudes because this is the level you bring yourself down to when you buy into the sort of casual bigotry that leads to the demonisation of a entire community that has good and bad elements just like any other segment of society.

If you continue to refuse that being anti-Traveller is the same as being racist, have a read of the reports on racism against Travellers by the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism (http://www.nccri.ie/travellr.html) and the European Parliament Committee of Inquiry on Racism and Xenophobia. Of course, if your mind is already made up, you probably won't bother. It's uncomfortable reading something that might cause you to recognise yourself as a bigot and a racist.

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

By enshrining the rights of minorities in legislation and by introducing anti-discrimination laws, it would send a clear signal that we respect the rights of minorities in Ireland. Members of minority communities would be able to take action against discrimination as it happened. Solid intercultural measures would have to be taken (such as changes to how we do education, implementing Traveller accommodation provisions that have been agreed upon but not enacted since the 1990s, changes in employment law) that would ensure that Travellers have access to the same opportunities as the rest of us enjoy. If you are in denial about equality of opportunity, you are in denial about the existence of a problem so you might as well not read any further. In fact, the second line of what you posted above clearly shows you are in denial.

Sorry, I wanted to know how giving extra rights to travellers (rights that settled people don't have) is going to stop travellers continuing to behave as they do today - i.e. with no respect for many of the laws that everyone else has to abide by. You seem to have misunderstood what I thought was a fairly straightforward question. And can we please not have the usual '99% of travellers are law abiding' nonsense when we all know it's not true. I'm not saying that they are all bad, or that they are all bad because they are travellers, but a very large minority, or perhaps a majority, do not respect the laws of the land and cause continous problems to other law-abiding citizens just trying to live their own lives.

R P McMurphy

I wouldn't like to see it going to the Phoenix park. Should just enforce every piece of legislation going and have revenue officals there monitoring any sales and taking details and the tradition would quickly fade away

Monty Burnz

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I wouldn't like to see it going to the Phoenix park. Should just enforce every piece of legislation going and have revenue officals there monitoring any sales and taking details and the tradition would quickly fade away

I wonder how many of those travellers pay taxes? Has anyone ever seen the fleets of 100k Range Rovers around Rathkeale, a town where the settled community is shrinking every year for some reason, and businesses are closing one by one? It's a shell of the busy market town it used to be. How odd.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I wonder how many of those travellers pay taxes? Has anyone ever seen the fleets of 100k Range Rovers around Rathkeale, a town where the settled community is shrinking every year for some reason, and businesses are closing one by one? It's a shell of the busy market town it used to be. How odd.

Where is Rathkeale?.

John_Rambo

Limerick. A real eye opener, I think 80% of the population are from the traveler community. Loads of huge very very very flamboyant houses, statues and fountains in the front etc...