Smithfield Horse Market

QueensGael

Rathkeale made the news for the Virgin Mary tree stump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCVmc885-ns
(captions not mine, but it was one of the better clips I could find)

Monty Burnz

Interesting videos linking from that one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWfUNvNVICQ&t=3m38s

Cat Melodeon

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Sorry, I wanted to know how giving extra rights to travellers (rights that settled people don't have) is going to stop travellers continuing to behave as they do today - i.e. with no respect for many of the laws that everyone else has to abide by. You seem to have misunderstood what I thought was a fairly straightforward question.

Yes, you were given a straightforward answer. No one is proposing that Travellers are given extra rights, rights beyond which settled people have. What is proposed is implementation of existing and outstanding legislation (particularly relating to housing and accommodation) and the introduction and enactment of anti-discrimination laws. As it stands, Travellers find it difficult to access second and third level education, find it difficult to get on to mainstream training programs and apprenticeships, are discriminated against by employers, are discriminated against in the media, are discriminated against by the majority of the population. They experience health inequalities. Ten times as many Traveller babies than settled babies die before they are two. A third of Travellers die before they are 25.There have been incidents of them being refused insurance or Garda assistance or entry to certain establishments simply because of their Traveller status with no attantion paid to whether or not they have ever been involved in any deviant activity. It is simply assumed that they will, because others have. That is unfair and needs to change and their rights as citizens need to be recognised just as everyone else's are.

It is widely accepted that if you marginalise someone enough (whether they be Traveller or anyone else) and tell them enough that they are no good, they can slip into the behaviour that is expected of them. That happens to Travellers, it happens to everyone else too. The difference being that most non-Traveller kids don't grow up being excluded and treated like potential criminals.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And can we please not have the usual '99% of travellers are law abiding' nonsense when we all know it's not true. I'm not saying that they are all bad, or that they are all bad because they are travellers, but a very large minority, or perhaps a majority, do not respect the laws of the land and cause continous problems to other law-abiding citizens just trying to live their own lives.

I would like to see where you get this information from and hope you will post a link to back up your accusation. Over 50% of Travellers are bad? What does that mean - that they engage in criminal activity, or that they are just immoral and uncivilised? Do you include children in that? Do you include the many Travellers who hold jobs, trade legitimately, pay taxes, try to live a quite life and get on as best they can? Do you actually have any Traveller friends or acquaintances?

Criminality tends to go hand in hand with poverty, particularly when that poverty includes social marginalisation. In the case of Travellers, their problems are not just related to socio-economic issues, but also to issues of identity. In Ireland we have erected structural barriers to the full integration of Travellers into society which in some cases results in persistent poverty. We need to work on taking those down. That includes getting rid of the racist and discriminatory discourses and ideologies that seem to define public opinion regarding Travellers. Those many Travellers who do well for themselves legitimately should be recognised as doing well and not accused of tax evasion or fraud or criminality. There are many Travellers who work hard, pay taxes and enjoy the trappings of wealth. However to the ignorant mind it seems if they are poor they must be criminal and if they are obviously rich, they are definitely criminal.

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Yes, you were given a straightforward answer. No one is proposing that Travellers are given extra rights, rights beyond which settled people have. What is proposed is implementation of existing and outstanding legislation (particularly relating to housing and accommodation) and the introduction and enactment of anti-discrimination laws. As it stands, Travellers find it difficult to access second and third level education, find it difficult to get on to mainstream training programs and apprenticeships, are discriminated against by employers, are discriminated against in the media, are discriminated against by the majority of the population. They experience health inequalities. Ten times as many Traveller babies than settled babies die before they are two. A third of Travellers die before they are 25.There have been incidents of them being refused insurance or Garda assistance or entry to certain establishments simply because of their Traveller status with no attantion paid to whether or not they have ever been involved in any deviant activity. It is simply assumed that they will, because others have. That is unfair and needs to change and their rights as citizens need to be recognised just as everyone else's are.

I'm sorry, but there's an awful load of tosh in there. Travellers find it difficult to access education because they don't send their kids to school. The CAO system is totally blind to your background - if you get the points, you get in. Travellers can't blame discrimination for their own total lack of regard for education. "They experience health inequalities" - or, in English, they live less healthily and die younger. Advice on how to live healthily is everywhere - perhaps they should pay attention to it? Or perhaps, as they haven't bothered with an education, they aren't able to read this advice that the rest of us can access?

The deaths of traveller babies - the same thing? Ignorance, lack of education, and insisting in living in unsuitable accommodation?

As for being refused admittance to places - that's unfortuante, but I bet the same places would let black or gay people in. Why is that? Perhaps because we don't hava a history of hundreds of black people turning up and trashing a place? We don't have gay weddings where the homosexuals smash the place up either. And it's very hard to know whether you are dealing with decent travellers or the large number who have no respect for the law or property. Let's not pretend that businesses started turning down trade and profits from travellers because they don't want it.

If you think there is a 30% chance a group of travellers is going to trash your pub, are you supposed to let them in? I know it's unfair on the other 70%, but what is your proposed solution?

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

I would like to see where you get this information from and hope you will post a link to back up your accusation. Over 50% of Travellers are bad? What does that mean - that they engage in criminal activity, or that they are just immoral and uncivilised? Do you include children in that? Do you include the many Travellers who hold jobs, trade legitimately, pay taxes, try to live a quite life and get on as best they can? Do you actually have any Traveller friends or acquaintances?

I'll post my evidence that a large minority or perhaps a majority of travellers do not respect the law when you provide your figures for the 'many' travellers who pay taxes.

The Waltzing Consumer

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'll post my evidence that a large minority or perhaps a majority of travellers do not respect the law when you provide your figures for the 'many' travellers who pay taxes.

I don't know if he will be able to provide those figures. The only ones I can find are these from Celtic Tiger year 2002.

http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1593

It shows that of the 13680 travellers in Ireland aged 15+, only 2,531 were employed.

As for the health inequality claim by Cat Melodeon, it is worth pointing out that along with lifestyle choices, generations of inbreeding has also had a detrimental effect on travellers health.

The problem with Cat Melodeons whole post, from my point of view, is that it entirely lays the blame of any bad deed at either the Government or discrimination. Even when he talks about criminality, the blame is ultimately blamed on something else.

As for the whole how many travellers are engaged in crime, it is hard to see an actual way to record that. The only thing I could find is this from 2003:
http://www.paveepoint.ie/pdf/MH_Sub_Dec03.pdf

which quotes the following Amnesty report:
"There is a gross over-representation of Travellers in forensic admissions… This reflects the excess of Travellers amongst prison committals… These rates suggest that a very high proportion of all Travellers will be imprisoned at some time during their life."

Degsy

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

No one is proposing that Travellers are given extra rights, rights beyond which settled people have..

Okay..

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

What is proposed is implementation of existing and outstanding legislation (particularly relating to housing and accommodation) ..

What you want is free housing and accomadation..why?

I have to pay for mine and i cant afford to drive an up-to-date jeep.

Why should you be given free accomadation? I've never heard of a poor traveller.

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

There are many Travellers who work hard, pay taxes and enjoy the trappings of wealth. However to the ignorant mind it seems if they are poor they must be criminal and if they are obviously rich, they are definitely criminal.

Working hard and paying taxes does not make you wealthy..any taxpayer will tell you that.

eth0_

Settled people wouldn't be allowed to descend on an inner-city area with hundreds of horses for an entire day, cause regular acts of violence (i've seen it and the amount of police required to attend this event would indicate it wasn't a one off) and then leave Smithfield - a residential area - covered in horse manure and other rubbish. So why should the travellers continue to do it?

Additionally, a lot of the horses I have seen at the fair have been in poor condition and are cantered around the area which not only causes a danger to pedestrians and vehicles, but is physically damaging to a horse's hooves and legs, especially if they are un-shod.

The market needs to be moved to a country area where it can be held in a field and the DSPCA can inspect each animal before it can be sold.

eth0_

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-city-council-reject-motion-to-close-market-after-shooting-496348.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d766de18df18555%2C0

DCC have just rejected a motion to close the market. So they happily condone animal cruelty and the shocking wastage of tax payers money on policing and clean-up after this event. Unbelievable.

The Hill Billy

eth0_ wrote: »

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-city-council-reject-motion-to-close-market-after-shooting-496348.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d766de18df18555%2C0

DCC have just rejected a motion to close the market. So they happily condone animal cruelty and the shocking wastage of tax payers money on policing and clean-up after this event. Unbelievable.

What's a post about Smithfield Horse Market doing in this thread?

Oh, eh, wait a sec...

The Waltzing Consumer

eth0_ wrote: »

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-city-council-reject-motion-to-close-market-after-shooting-496348.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d766de18df18555%2C0

DCC have just rejected a motion to close the market. So they happily condone animal cruelty and the shocking wastage of tax payers money on policing and clean-up after this event. Unbelievable.

Whilst I agree to shut this market down, DCC rejected the motion because it does not have legal power to stop the market going ahead. This is why they have said they are writing to Government, asking to change legislation which will then bring an end to the market.

More than likely, one councillor who does not know about the limits of DCC power got excited and put this motion down which was rejected because it is not in their mandate.

John_Rambo

eth0_ wrote: »

Settled people wouldn't be allowed to descend on an inner-city area with hundreds of horses for an entire day

They do! It's not just travelers, it's Dubs, country folk, all manner of people at the market.

The Hill Billy

I've removed a number of posts that were taking this thread further off-topic. Any more acting the eejit & there'll be bans dished out.

HB

Cat Melodeon

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, but there's an awful load of tosh in there. Travellers find it difficult to access education because they don't send their kids to school. The CAO system is totally blind to your background - if you get the points, you get in. Travellers can't blame discrimination for their own total lack of regard for education.

There are lower levels of literacy among adult Travellers. For years they were forced into segregated below-standard special units rather than allowed into mainstream schools. Few were encouraged to attend school beyond their Confirmation. Many had atrocious experiences of schooling and are less than eager to send their children into the same system. Things have changed slightly in recent years, but what does it say when the first thing to be cut in education is the provision of teachers to the Travelling community?

The CAO system is blind to whether or not you get extra private tuition or attend a grind school or have parents who know how the system works or have a room of your own in which to study. It is blind to whether you have a parent who can help you with honours Maths or one who can barely write their own name. It is blind to whether your mother has a PhD or whether she left school at 12, got married at 16 and had 13 children. Which kids do you think fare better?

The Irish education system is full of inequalities. Emer Smyth of the ESRI, Kathleen Lynch of UCD and Anne Lodge formerly of NUIM, among others have published heaps of research showing how successful negotiation of the Irish education system is much less about ability and mostly to do with class, ethnicity and gender. Middle class girls do best in school, even in cases where they have less ability than their poorer peers. A Traveller boy from a poor family doesn't stand a chance.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

"They experience health inequalities" - or, in English, they live less healthily and die younger. Advice on how to live healthily is everywhere - perhaps they should pay attention to it? Or perhaps, as they haven't bothered with an education, they aren't able to read this advice that the rest of us can access?

Pure bile. Yes, many are illiterate and can't read the advice others can access, or don't know how to. Some don't have a family GP. Lack of education results in poorer health. Do you think they should just be allowed to die off of easily preventable causes? How humane of you.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The deaths of traveller babies - the same thing? Ignorance, lack of education, and insisting in living in unsuitable accommodation?

Yes. Is it the child's fault that their parents live a certain way, and that that way of life is made more difficult because of the complete lack of value mainstream society places on it?

Monty Burnz wrote: »

As for being refused admittance to places - that's unfortuante, but I bet the same places would let black or gay people in. Why is that? Perhaps because we don't hava a history of hundreds of black people turning up and trashing a place? We don't have gay weddings where the homosexuals smash the place up either. And it's very hard to know whether you are dealing with decent travellers or the large number who have no respect for the law or property. Let's not pretend that businesses started turning down trade and profits from travellers because they don't want it.

If you think there is a 30% chance a group of travellers is going to trash your pub, are you supposed to let them in? I know it's unfair on the other 70%, but what is your proposed solution?

You deal with people on an individual basis. If someone causes hassle, bar them. No need to bar the lot. This worked for my uncle running a fairly rough pub in Tipp that had a large Traveller clientele. Yes, we had mayhem on occasions (Gardai called twice in the four years I worked there, fights on maybe 7 occasions) but it really was more likely to have been caused by the settled customers than the Travellers.

You treat each person as a fellow human and give them the benefit of the doubt unless they let you down.

Degsy wrote: »

What you want is free housing and accomadation..why?

I have to pay for mine and i cant afford to drive an up-to-date jeep.

Why should you be given free accomadation? I've never heard of a poor traveller.

Working hard and paying taxes does not make you wealthy..any taxpayer will tell you that.

Who said anything about free accommodation? Social housing is means tested for and rent is paid as appropriate. I am certainly not advocating for free Traveller accommodation, just the provision of services as promised by previous governments, including the construction of properly located and serviced halting sites. Rent should be paid for halting site bays too. I don't get why you think I'm saying these should be provided free of charge.

Are you aware that there is a long waiting list for social housing (and not just for Travellers)?

And if you have never heard of a poor Traveller you mustn't know very many.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I don't know if he will be able to provide those figures. The only ones I can find are these from Celtic Tiger year 2002.

http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1593

It shows that of the 13680 travellers in Ireland aged 15+, only 2,531 were employed.

I'm not sure how you are reading that table, but if you look at the one below it shows that of the 7,401 Travellers in the labour force, 2257 (or 30%) were employed.
http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1591
Yes, unemployment is a bigger problem among Travellers than it is among the population at large, but looking at the lower levels of education that are typical and the reluctance of many employers to take on Travellers, that is hardly surprising, nor does it infer that those Travellers who do work are less likely to pay taxes.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'll post my evidence that a large minority or perhaps a majority of travellers do not respect the law when you provide your figures for the 'many' travellers who pay taxes.

Cop out.

Any Traveller in a standard job pays PAYE same as any other employee. This data is not generally freely available. For those who are self-employed, Revenue kindly publishes the names of tax defaulters every year. These are not broken down by ethnic group, so I am unable to post the % of Travellers who default on tax.

We have a legal system in Ireland that presumes innocence until guilt is proven. You clearly are unfamiliar with the concept.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

As for the health inequality claim by Cat Melodeon, it is worth pointing out that along with lifestyle choices, generations of inbreeding has also had a detrimental effect on travellers health.

You might call it a lifestyle choice. People living in poverty (and I don't mean just Travellers here) do not see the difficulties they have in accessing proper healthcare as a 'lifestyle choice', they see it as a depressing and injurious fact of life. How do you have so little empathy for people in less privileged positions than yourself? the recent report on Traveller health described the problems in the community in depth. I have no doubt you will never read it.

About 1% of Travellers carry genetic disorders. This is slightly higher than the population at large although the disorders themselves are no different to those among the settled population.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

The problem with Cat Melodeons whole post, from my point of view, is that it entirely lays the blame of any bad deed at either the Government or discrimination. Even when he talks about criminality, the blame is ultimately blamed on something else.

I certainly do not lay the blame for criminal activity, particularly of the kind seen at Smithfield, at anyone's door but the Travellers involved. I take issue when people start making accusations about ALL Travellers on the basis of incidents that clearly only involve a certain section of the Travelling community.

However there are clearly problems which are caused by the way in which Travellers are treated in Irish society and the way in which we have failed miserably to properly attempt a mutually respectful policy of integration. This is not just my opinion but that of national, European and UN-level rights organisations.

And I am a she, not a he.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

As for the whole how many travellers are engaged in crime, it is hard to see an actual way to record that. The only thing I could find is this from 2003:
http://www.paveepoint.ie/pdf/MH_Sub_Dec03.pdf

which quotes the following Amnesty report:
"There is a gross over-representation of Travellers in forensic admissions… This reflects the excess of Travellers amongst prison committals… These rates suggest that a very high proportion of all Travellers will be imprisoned at some time during their life."

If you don't see what that report is trying to demonstrate (over-representation caused by racial profiling by courts and Gardai) there is no point in discussing this any further with you.

Haters gonna hate.

[/end of involvement in thread]

Cat Melodeon

Hill Billy wrote: »

I've removed a number of posts that were taking this thread further off-topic. Any more acting the eejit & there'll be bans dished out.

HB

Apologies, it took me ages to write that last post due to babies crying and pancakes being burnt and I missed your warning. Delete/ban me as necessary - sorry!

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Apologies, it took me ages to write that last post due to babies crying and pancakes being burnt and I missed your warning. Delete/ban me as necessary - sorry!

To be fair CM, I don't think your post is O/T at all.

On the other hand, there's rather a lot of hand-wringing nonsense and a complete refusal to acknowledge that the travellers are to a large extent responsible for their own shockingly low levels of education in a first world country, their unhealthy lifestyles, and their higher levels of involvement in crime.

I'm a liberal lefty - but I'm afraid a spade is a spade is a spade.

Cat Melodeon

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be fair CM, I don't think your post is O/T at all.

On the other hand, there's rather a lot of hand-wringing nonsense and a complete refusal to acknowledge that the travellers are to a large extent responsible for their own shockingly low levels of education in a first world country, their unhealthy lifestyles, and their higher levels of involvement in crime.

I'm a liberal lefty - but I'm afraid a spade is a spade is a spade.

To be fair Monty, you are about as much a liberal lefty as Leo Varadkar or Kevin Myers, at least on this topic.

It is much more complex than Travellers being solely responsible for their performance in schools. There is NO integration of Travellers in schools. There are no representations of them in the primary curriculum. The elements that do deal with them in CSPE and Social Ed at second level tend to focus on the problems they face rather than explaining any of the positive aspects of their lives. Bullying of Travellers tends to be ignored. Few schools have staff who have any real understanding of the difficulties faced by Traveller children at home or in school. Have you heard of the hidden curriculum, the unspoken rules and norms which children must inherently understand if they want to do well at school but which actually exclude any child that does not belong to the dominant cultural group (namely white middle-class Catholic or Protestant Irish kids)? Working class children, non-Irish and Travellers do not fare well in Irish schools and that is not simply a measurement of how intelligent they are or whether or not they can be bothered.

These are children we are talking about, not hardened criminals. What choice do they have if their parents place little value on education? By saying to hell with them, it's their parents fault for not forcing them do go to school, you are effectively resigning them to the same fate as the generations before and perpetuating the same problems. Some Traveller kids are tough enough to stick it out and go and get their qualifications, but for most it's easier for them to conform to what is normal among their Traveller peers. Blame them all you like, but the problem will continue as long as that attitude prevails.

Ireland for the most part tries to be a progressive society but in relation to structural inequalities facing marginalised groups we have a long way to go. That's not handwringing, it's a perfectly valid criticism.

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

These are children we are talking about, not hardened criminals. What choice do they have if their parents place little value on education? By saying to hell with them, it's their parents fault for not forcing them do go to school, you are effectively resigning them to the same fate as the generations before and perpetuating the same problems.

And that is the nub of the problem I think. Uneducated people placing no value on education, and the cylcle perpetuating itself. My G/F's parents were educated to inter-cert level, but they put a high value on education and my G/F is educated to post-grad level and earns a 6 figure salary. She does not come from a priviliged backround.

My mother's family were dirt poor (6 raised on a widow's pension in the middle of nowhere) but my grandmother put a high value on education - hence great sacrifices were made so that all the children could get as much education as possible. Result - a couple of millionaire uncles.

If travellers want to break the cycle of social exclusion and disadvantage, they will have to make the same sacrifices as others have before them - prioritise education (even if it entails sacrifices) and obey the law.

Cat Melodeon

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And that is the nub of the problem I think. Uneducated people placing no value on education, and the cylcle perpetuating itself. My G/F's parents were educated to inter-cert level, but they put a high value on education and my G/F is educated to post-grad level and earns a 6 figure salary. She does not come from a priviliged backround.

My mother's family were dirt poor (6 raised on a widow's pension in the middle of nowhere) but my grandmother put a high value on education - hence great sacrifices were made so that all the children could get as much education as possible. Result - a couple of millionaire uncles.

If travellers want to break the cycle of social exclusion and disadvantage, they will have to make the same sacrifices as others have before them - prioritise education (even if it entails sacrifices) and obey the law.

That's grand, I come from similar circumstances but neither you nor I nor your girlfriend were ever refused entry from a shop or a library or a school just because of the family we came from, nor were we put in special classes at school simply because we were from a particular group, nor did we have to see our mother stared at with suspicion every time she entered a shop even if she never did a wrong thing in her life, nor were we treated any worse than anyone else in society. We did not have barriers thrown up at our every step. Travellers do and it makes it so much harder for the ones who do want to break the cycle to actually get through. Some manage - some of the Traveller girls I've worked with have gone on to become childcare workers and one is training as a nurse, but they are exceptional and would not have managed it had it not been for their mothers also having returned to education and battling for their daughters to do the same and for the support of groups and individuals working to break down some of the structural barriers in one of the local schools and in the further education centres. These are mighty women and the battles and constant discrimination they face are far tougher than anything you or I or our parents had to go through.

If you can't accept that these barriers exist for Travellers in ways that barriers never existed for us, I don't see any point in continuing the discussion.

Degsy

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

That's grand, I come from similar circumstances but neither you nor I nor your girlfriend were ever refused entry from a shop or a library or a school just because of the family we came from, nor were we put in special classes at school simply because we were from a particular group, nor did we have to see our mother stared at with suspicion every time she entered a shop even if she never did a wrong thing in her life, nor were we treated any worse than anyone else in society. We did not have barriers thrown up at our every step. Travellers do and it makes it so much harder for the ones who do want to break the cycle to actually get through. Some manage - some of the Traveller girls I've worked with have gone on to become childcare workers and one is training as a nurse, but they are exceptional and would not have managed it had it not been for their mothers also having returned to education and battling for their daughters to do the same and for the support of groups and individuals working to break down some of the structural barriers in one of the local schools and in the further education centres. These are mighty women and the battles and constant discrimination they face are far tougher than anything you or I or our parents had to go through.

If you can't accept that these barriers exist for Travellers in ways that barriers never existed for us, I don't see any point in continuing the discussion.

So why were travellers shooting at each other in broad daylight in a crowded market?

Cat Melodeon

Degsy wrote: »

So why were travellers shooting at each other in broad daylight in a crowded market?

Because those particular Travellers are criminal mentallers. I'm not denying they exist. Is it so hard for you to understand that not every Traveller is the same?

Are you a white Irish male? Can I assume so that you are a rapist like Larry Murphy or a wife-murderer like Joe O'Reilly or even a criminal gang leader like Martin Cahill? I mean if some Irish men do that sort of thing, surely you must too? Same reasoning applied.

John_Rambo

How many times do you personally actually witness Irish men raping or murdering, or even leading a large criminal organisation while riding his wife and her sister while wearing a mickey mouse t-shirt? I think peoples feelings are based on their experiences Cat. Now I can post up a massively long heart rendering post, but I won't. I will just say, I have had three dealings with members of the traveling community and unfortunately, none of them would leave them in a good light in my mind. Three separate bad experiences. I have no doubt there are good travelers, maybe I did have dealings with them and didn't realise they were travelers.

Degsy

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Are you a white Irish male? .

Yes..and so,without exception is every non-female traveller in this country.

Are they claming to be black now or something?

Funny that,because i regularly hear them calling the security card in the shopping centre near me a "black bastard" and a "foreign cnunt".

Hypocritical words from a 'persecuted minority',eh?


Using "discrimination" as a cover to break the law is wearing a bit thin,dont you think?

If you knew who the "mentallers" were,would you help the Gardai,bearing in mind most of them are what you'd call "buffers"(a discriminatory term,no?).