Wel all have to take the pain, so what about Corporation Tax?

gurramok

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just like we became dependant on a construction sector that was unsustainable, we are now obviously overly dependant upon a small enough number of foreign MNC's that have no allegiance to this country whatsoever, other than for the purposes of enjoying a 12.5% rate of Corporation Tax.

It is clear that we have a tail wagging the dog situation here. These MNC's have been sending out spook stories for years now, "we'll walk if you do this that or the other". Fine, then f*cking walk so. We have a country to run here and it's time we stopped pandering to these idiots who run closed shops, who tell us what our tax rates will be, who talk absolute sh*te about "our employees are what makes our company so successful" only to relocate to Poland at the drop of a hat.

These companies are not our future, we may as well make as much as we can out of them while they are here, because sooner or later, they will all find a cheaper location to do business from...

In any event, I'm sick of hearing how vital these companies are so vital to our economy. Take IBM for example, I think they employ around 3,000 people in Ireland, I'm not sure but take any MNC that employs around 3,000 people here as an example. That number of people are losing their jobs here now on a weekly basis in this country.

It's like boiling frogs. If you put a frog into a saucepan of cold water and increase the temperature gradually, he will stay in the water and boil to death. If you throw the same frog into a sauce of boiling water, he will leap out straight away. That is all that is happening here, we are watching frogs boil.

How come we don't get outraged when 3K more people will be unemployed next Friday than are unemployed tomorrow morning, but if an MNC comes out and says they might make people redundant if we increase Corporation Tax of don't follow their wish list of requirements, it scares the bejesus out of us???

We seriously need to grow ourselves a pair and ask these companies are they only here for the Corporation Tax or have they anything more to offer... If this is all they are here for, we need to come up with ways to replace the jobs they bring as a matter of urgency.

So, you want to get rid of another unsustainable sector while we have lost another?(construction/banking)

Thats madness. Yes, tax them when we have a majority Irish MNC sector, we are nowhere near that.
Finfacts recently reported that MNC's here account for 92% of our exports, say goodbye to Ireland when they leave. http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10008570.shtml.

So yeh, they are more important to us than we are to them, thats the way it is unfortunately.
Most job losses to date have been outside the MNC's(only DELL/SRTechinics, maybe another, have closed so far), we don't want more job losses from MNC's and the supply companies and yes i would be out of a job if your proposal got through!

doolox

I have worked all my life for two multinational companies with mixed results. I learned my trade and worked for 14 years in Galway with Digital and liked it very much. In comparison to the fractious industrial relations of other more traditional industries the working atmosphere in Digital was calm, relaxed and supporting. You were treated like a valuable human being, developed and trained to do a worthwhile job and, by the standards of the time, paid very well.
They closed the company in 1993 and I was devastated.
I moved to Dublin and got a job in Intel.
The work atmosphere was completely different.
I would say that Intel was one of almost Dickensian levels of control, constantly high levels of pressurised work and uncertainty and stress and a highly charged atmosphere of competiveness and intimidation. Our best was never good enough, our costs were always too high, training and development while good in parts was spotty and too late at other times
After 7 years the job I was hired to do was moved to Eastern Europe.
I was transferred into a different part of the company and couldn't do anything good enough for the crowd there. Again, training and support was erratic as the guy responsible was on other duties and not available when needed. One mistake got me demoted and transferred to another part of the company doing routine operations.
I hated this work.
Ironically because of some obscure Irish labour law they couldn't reduce my pay and ended up paying me a grade higher than the work I was doing but my confidence was shattered.
My home relationships were suffering, my lifestyle habits were causing my health to suffer and the situation looked hopeless.
The final straw came when I was the victim of bullying and harassment from one individual and after I put up with it for a year I reported it and nothing was done to solve the situation. Another more strident individual took me to task unreasonably for nodding off on my break and also got away with it.
It was obvious that the company was too scared to protect me from bullying.
A redundancy package became available in Nov 2007 and I applied and was successful in getting it.
I took counselling for the 14 years of abuse I went through and also for the
accumulation of abuse at school from other pupils which, in part, allowed this situation to develop.
It seems to me that the multinationals can play one nation-state off against the other and come out on top, immune to any significant liabilty for tax or responsibility for the health and welfare of the employees in their charge.
We need to strengthen the nation-state again as the balance has gone too much in favour of corporate big business and against the sovereign states and their individual workers.
This suits the purposes of the multinationals well to have countries fighting with each other for jobs and to have people moving to strange lands in search of work and have to learn new languages and customs before they can fight for their rights and have the confidence to stand up for themselves.
In Medieval times a similar pattern emerged with the formation of transnational orders of Knights such as the Knights Templar and the Order of Malta and banking families such as the Fuggers and Rothchilds who bankrolled and controlled the monarchs of the time with often bad results for the small-time operator.
It is also very possible for the nation-states to lose the run of themselves and abuse their power.
What is needed is a balance.
Ireland has done well from multinational investment in the past but it is not the way of the future.
If we look to successful economies we see that education is key and a strong indigenous base is also essential.The most important thing is a well developed local investment structure where small groups of people in loacl areas can pool their own money and invest in local enterprises fro their own benefit.
Tragically we have wasted this opportunity by becoming a nation nobody can trust and nobody in their right mind would lend money to anybody else.
The recovery will be slow principally because we need to build new laws, new institutions and new structures, open and transparent to all and we need to slowly build up investor confidence in these new structures.
This will take time.

eoinbn

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Which ones have invested in all of this infrastructure. The only one I know of is Intel and they rotate their fabs every 10 years or so. Their profits have reduced massivly over the last year. So they either re-invest hugely every few years or move. So they can't move easily now but they can in the next few years.

It's a much shorter turn around than that. IIRC Intel Ireland are producing 200mm wafers at 65nm/90nm, which is already well out of date tech for Intel. There top of the range plants would be 300mm 45nm and will be moving over to 32nm over the next 12 months. Given they are building new plants in China/USA we can expect that Intel Ireland will be shut down within 24 months.

And do you want to know what they will do with plant in ireland? Most likely they will put the chip manufacturing gear in the back of a nice clean truck and sell it off a chinese company to make low quality chips for budget TV's!

dell, intel and microsoft(I think) make up 20% of our gdp afaik. Last thing we want to do is give them a reason to leave. This whole TAX THE RICH buzz needs to stop. The rich are the only people propping this country up as it is.

mickoneill30

eoinbn wrote: »

It's a much shorter turn around than that. IIRC Intel Ireland are producing 200mm wafers at 65nm/90nm, which is already well out of date tech for Intel. There top of the range plants would be 300mm 45nm and will be moving over to 32nm over the next 12 months. Given they are building new plants in China/USA we can expect that Intel Ireland will be shut down within 24 months.

While I'd say 24 months is a bit soon Intel is investing heavily in the US operations. They're not investing heavily in the Irish ones.
http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20090210corp.htm
So now's probably not the time to say we want more money off them.

mickoneill30

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

dell, intel and microsoft(I think) make up 20% of our gdp afaik. Last thing we want to do is give them a reason to leave. This whole TAX THE RICH buzz needs to stop. The rich are the only people propping this country up as it is.

In yesterdays Sunday Business Post it had the statement that 47% of the states income tax comes from 6% of the people (the rich). So I agree with you there. The Tax The Rich mantra needs to stop. The rich are the ones that can move easily. Absolutely they have to pay their share but 100% of the time whenever there's any increase it's the line that is trotted out by whoever is the ones being affected.

Edit: I don't fit into the rich category.

DadaKopf

doolox wrote: »

I have worked all my life for two multinational companies with mixed results. I learned my trade and worked for 14 years in Galway with Digital and liked it very much. In comparison to the fractious industrial relations of other more traditional industries the working atmosphere in Digital was calm, relaxed and supporting. You were treated like a valuable human being, developed and trained to do a worthwhile job and, by the standards of the time, paid very well.
They closed the company in 1993 and I was devastated.
I moved to Dublin and got a job in Intel.
The work atmosphere was completely different.
I would say that Intel was one of almost Dickensian levels of control, constantly high levels of pressurised work and uncertainty and stress and a highly charged atmosphere of competiveness and intimidation. Our best was never good enough, our costs were always too high, training and development while good in parts was spotty and too late at other times
After 7 years the job I was hired to do was moved to Eastern Europe.
I was transferred into a different part of the company and couldn't do anything good enough for the crowd there. Again, training and support was erratic as the guy responsible was on other duties and not available when needed. One mistake got me demoted and transferred to another part of the company doing routine operations.
I hated this work.
Ironically because of some obscure Irish labour law they couldn't reduce my pay and ended up paying me a grade higher than the work I was doing but my confidence was shattered.
My home relationships were suffering, my lifestyle habits were causing my health to suffer and the situation looked hopeless.
The final straw came when I was the victim of bullying and harassment from one individual and after I put up with it for a year I reported it and nothing was done to solve the situation. Another more strident individual took me to task unreasonably for nodding off on my break and also got away with it.
It was obvious that the company was too scared to protect me from bullying.
A redundancy package became available in Nov 2007 and I applied and was successful in getting it.
I took counselling for the 14 years of abuse I went through and also for the
accumulation of abuse at school from other pupils which, in part, allowed this situation to develop.
It seems to me that the multinationals can play one nation-state off against the other and come out on top, immune to any significant liabilty for tax or responsibility for the health and welfare of the employees in their charge.
We need to strengthen the nation-state again as the balance has gone too much in favour of corporate big business and against the sovereign states and their individual workers.
This suits the purposes of the multinationals well to have countries fighting with each other for jobs and to have people moving to strange lands in search of work and have to learn new languages and customs before they can fight for their rights and have the confidence to stand up for themselves.
In Medieval times a similar pattern emerged with the formation of transnational orders of Knights such as the Knights Templar and the Order of Malta and banking families such as the Fuggers and Rothchilds who bankrolled and controlled the monarchs of the time with often bad results for the small-time operator.
It is also very possible for the nation-states to lose the run of themselves and abuse their power.
What is needed is a balance.
Ireland has done well from multinational investment in the past but it is not the way of the future.
If we look to successful economies we see that education is key and a strong indigenous base is also essential.The most important thing is a well developed local investment structure where small groups of people in loacl areas can pool their own money and invest in local enterprises fro their own benefit.
Tragically we have wasted this opportunity by becoming a nation nobody can trust and nobody in their right mind would lend money to anybody else.
The recovery will be slow principally because we need to build new laws, new institutions and new structures, open and transparent to all and we need to slowly build up investor confidence in these new structures.
This will take time.

I sympathise with your story and agree that the market has to be taken under democratic control by accountable governments.

But is nationalism, and the nation-state, really the solution? What I mean is, clearly you feel yourself a victim of the greedy, exploitative character of global corporate capitalism. The jobs came to Ireland, the work and the commands affected your health, and after all that you gave, the operation moved to another country to start the process again. You were just a piece of meat.

The thing is: invoking nationalism can divert people from the real issue. The issue is not the choice, or more normally accident, of someone being born and working in a certain country, but the ravenous profiteering of capitalists and the way in which the system exploits employees. In other words, nationalism is a sideshow that (1) diverts attention away from this issue and (2) scares people into doing what corporations say by invoking the fear of losing out to other countries [e.g. competitiveness]. It pits people against each other when they should be realising their common condition.

Anyway, I hope that we're seeing a more left-wing, social-democratic turn in the political economy now - a reorientation of people's visions and values. But it's not going to happen automatically, especially with IBEC having won the debate early on (nobody's talking about how inefficient and badly-run private enterprise in Ireland is). Also with the media gatekeepers who continue to trot out right-wing 'experts' to comment on the state of the 'nation'.

The rise and rise of finance over the past 30 years (which, in part, created neoliberalism) has been revealed for what it is. And one, perhaps, positive outcome of this revolution is the fact that we now cannot print money to get us through this. Instead, ordinary people have to take massive dips in wages and living standards after having worked so hard and put up with so much crap for the last 15 years. Now the real dynamic of capitalism is being exposed for what it is - this same things happens after each major crash. It's part of the accumulation strategy. Capitalism is inherently unstable and contradictory. Now, finally, this reality is not being concealed by the 'print more money' response which always hid the reality of what was happening - the strategic immiseration of the middle and working classes by the capitalist classes.

eoinbn

mickoneill30 wrote: »

In yesterdays Sunday Business Post it had the statement that 47% of the states income tax comes from 6% of the people (the rich). So I agree with you there. The Tax The Rich mantra needs to stop. The rich are the ones that can move easily.

To get into the top 6% you need to earn ~€120k+. It's your local GP/dentist, they can't all move that easily

gurramok

The rich are running out of places to go and hide as a tax exile. Most countries now are going to tax them to support their economies.

anonymous_joe

gurramok wrote: »

The rich are running out of places to go and hide as a tax exile. Most countries now are going to tax them to support their economies.

Such behaviour isn't as common as people make it out to be.

Plenty of wealthy people live in Ireland. As has been said before, the richest percent of the population pay a very high percentage of tax revenue.

The current financial crisis is not some sort of evil plot by rich people to fúck everyone else over. It's a very real crisis, and we're too busy scapegoating and trying to make someone else pay rather than fix things ourselves. :rolleyes:

Soldie

We need to decrease the cost of doing business here, not increase it.

thomasj

Soldie wrote: »

We need to decrease the cost of doing business here, not increase it.

Agreed and if it meant getting those corporations which large employment to stay as well as getting more to come over as well as assisting those only starting up I reckon the CT rate should be lowered to 10%

It may sound a bit contentious but we are facing tougher competition with eastern european countries.

Permabear

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Darragh29

I think the problem here is that our government are not giving us the deal here, they need to sit down, come on the television and tell EVERYONE IMMEDIATELY, what they are being hit for, and how these hits are going to address our financial problem.

Why don't they just call a conference and tell us what is happening and how they are going to resolve it. We are spending 55 million a day more than we are taking in apparently. So cut spending so we are only borrowing 30 million a day to run the country, and then increase whatever taxes have to be increased to come up with the other 25 million a day that is being borrowed. How hard is that??? Problem sorted!

Red Sleeping Beauty

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If capitalism is stable then how would you explain this mythical global recession that occured overnight ? Is it because every country's government was meddling with the economy too much with their wishy washy pinky lefty ideas ?

Darragh29 wrote: »

I think the problem here is that our government are not giving us the deal here, they need to sit down, come on the television and tell EVERYONE IMMEDIATELY, what they are being hit for, and how these hits are going to address our financial problem.

Why don't they just call a conference and tell us what is happening and how they are going to resolve it. We are spending 55 million a day more than we are taking in apparently. So cut spending so we are only borrowing 30 million a day to run the country, and then increase whatever taxes have to be increased to come up with the other 25 million a day that is being borrowed. How hard is that??? Problem sorted!

They won't do that cause there's elections coming up. FF know better than to release bad news before elections

old boy

alan dunne what would they do above in the dail if that was sorted, also there would be no need to hire experts to tell them what to do, plus the bankers and their friends would not require bailing out. the big mistake made was the main banks were not ring fenced and alglo allowed to implode.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RealityCheck

Darragh29 wrote: »

I think the problem here is that our government are not giving us the deal here, they need to sit down, come on the television and tell EVERYONE IMMEDIATELY, what they are being hit for, and how these hits are going to address our financial problem.

Why don't they just call a conference and tell us what is happening and how they are going to resolve it. We are spending 55 million a day more than we are taking in apparently. So cut spending so we are only borrowing 30 million a day to run the country, and then increase whatever taxes have to be increased to come up with the other 25 million a day that is being borrowed. How hard is that??? Problem sorted!

That is a very true point. The uncertainty is crippling the country. People just dont know where they stand. All the uncertainty and negativity is causing people to think twice before spending. Making the problem even greater

Darragh29

RealityCheck wrote: »

That is a very true point. The uncertainty is crippling the country. People just dont know where they stand. All the uncertainty and negativity is causing people to think twice before spending. Making the problem even greater

This is so so simple. We have to come up with 55 million a day through tax increases or cuts in expenditure. They should go into a room and not come out until they can tell us how they will be increasing taxes and cutting expenditure to eliminate the need to borrow 55 million a day to run the country. When they have it cracked, come on the television and tell everyone what the story is... Next problem.

mickoneill30

mickoneill30 wrote: »

In yesterdays Sunday Business Post it had the statement that 47% of the states income tax comes from 6% of the people (the rich). So I agree with you there. The Tax The Rich mantra needs to stop. The rich are the ones that can move easily. Absolutely they have to pay their share but 100% of the time whenever there's any increase it's the line that is trotted out by whoever is the ones being affected.

Edit: I don't fit into the rich category.

So true. My dad paid about 70-80k in tax last year, while I (on a very low income) paid none. Ingenuity and intelligence shouldn't be punished in the form of a higher tax rate. I honestly wouldnt mind getting taxed a few percent as a low paid worker. But they really need to cut the welfare, because when i work 35 hours a week to make 400 euro, 207 for doing nothing doesn't sound bad.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Darragh29

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree with the points you are making, but as long as we are spending 55 million a day more than we are taking in and borrowing this difference, then this has to be repaid with interest and we have to raise this money through higher taxes anyway!

The key here is bringing the finances back into stable equilibrium and have what is coming in matching what is going out.

The first major task must be to stop the social welfare bill from increasing as it is at the moment and this means stopping job losses immediately. Then creating new jobs to replace those lost in the last 12 months. This government is sitting back and conceding that we will continue to haemorrhage jobs for the rest of this year and into next year!!! They expect 500,000 people to be unemployed by the end of this year!!!

So that 55 million we are borrowing a day now, will probably be 100 million by the end of the year!!!

How on earth can a government come out and say that there is nothing that can be done about the jobs that are being lost??? How is that possible??? How can they expect to fix the problem when they have already conceded absolute defeat to it??? If they don't believe that they have any control over the situation in the short term, then why come on the national airwaves yesterday and get up on a stage and tell people that they have a plan to secure jobs and create employment again and talk sh*ite about a smart economy??? Why give people false hope???

This is why the economy is presently f*cked, because there is no vision or inclination from the top down to inspire people to create new jobs and secure jobs that already exist.

Darragh29

What should happen here is any business that is closing down and letting more than 3 people go, should have to sit down and engage with a panel of successful business mentors available in every county, city & provincial town, who can help them market their business better, cut their costs, refinance if it is necessary, diversify their products and services if necessary and stay in business...

Closing down should not be an option until you have done this... And the government should be prepared to lend to these businesses directly and forget about the banks. Let the banks lose the business to a competitor and they won't be long about copping on...

darragh29 for taoiseach!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Darragh29

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

darragh29 for taoiseach!

Rerra!

On a serious note though, if we don't start coming up with simple ideas to get this situation resolved, we are finished. This isn't rocket science, I'm very emotive about this whole topic because I run my own business and all it takes is some lateral thinking and a collective effort to secure jobs.

Here's an example. Last month a mate of mine, who had been doing quite well until recently, found that his sales had dropped off the edge of a cliff around the end of last year. He also found that as his business was a supplier to the motor industry, his business was also under a new threat as his customers wouldn't give him cheques and were drawing him out on credit terms.

We did up a website for the business, he has now diversified his products and changed his business model, changed his suppliers, identified a new stream of customers for his business and now he is out of the woods.

Now only a few short months ago, we were sitting down drinking coffee and having conversation about possibly closing the business and what would he do next. We made a decision that he wouldn't be closing and we would do whatever was required to implement that decision. We didn't have the answers between us, we had to stay up morning noon and night some weekends to get this done, but we got it done...

Darragh29

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree with everything you have said above. But change is not an option here...

Job creation is the key to this whole thing. You can't cut the dole, (which I accept is crazy at 200+ a month), unless you have a job for someone.

Unfortunately in this country, self employment and job creation is looked upon as some sort of a black art! It isn't rocket science, it is common sense and hard work, so use common sense and roll up your sleeves and for f*cks sake go at it and GET IT DONE!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

eoinbn

Darragh29 wrote: »

This is so so simple. We have to come up with 55 million a day through tax increases or cuts in expenditure. They should go into a room and not come out until they can tell us how they will be increasing taxes and cutting expenditure to eliminate the need to borrow 55 million a day to run the country. When they have it cracked, come on the television and tell everyone what the story is... Next problem.

That was what I said in one of my first posts on the board

That's would probably be the best way for the country, but it would really burn some people which is why it won't happen. There is thousands of families all over this country up to their eyeballs in debt. It is impossible for a government to implement cuts/taxs that would cause a large of these people to go under.
Here are the next few steps:

1. More cuts/taxs- people revolt, election.
2. New government either tries the same and fails or tries to appease which leads to us going bust.
3. Either way we will need a bailout from either the EU, if we are lucky, or IMF if they have any money left.

Darragh29

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think when everything is going along ok and we have modest growth in the economy, then I fully agree with you, keep business taxes and personal taxes low and let people get on with what they have to do with the minimum of inpediment and financial obstruction.

But the situation we are in TODAY, is nothing less than alarming and I think we need to look at every option, including an emergency rise in Corporation Tax, to pull us out of this black hole before we get sucked in completely.

Someone in that Dail needs to take a chainsaw to public spending and get to grips with that problem immediately. This talk of decisions being floated out indefinitely to commissions on taxation, and bord snip nua's, blah blah blah, more reasons and excuses not to act and act immediately.