Students' Union 'strike' referendum

Breezer

I know there's already many threads on fees, but the latest one has gotten a bit derailed and I'd really like to focus on the forthcoming referendum about fees. If the mods disagree I guess the topics can be merged.

For anyone unaware of what's proposed, the text of the referendum can be read here and the Yes manifesto here.

Am I the only one that thinks this is total lunacy? I'm anti-fees, I'm generally pro-SU and I'm certainly against the majority of the policies Fianna Fáil have put in place over the last 12 years, but seriously, a 'strike' by students, where we sit around campus and watch films? The only message that's going to send out is that we've given ourselves a day off!

If we're going to do anything, I think more marches and a co-ordinated campaign to lobby Batt O'Keeffe and local Government TDs would be a much better approach. Do I think it will do any good? Probably not, because I think at this stage Fianna Fáil knows the game is up and will do precisely what it likes, but at least it would send the right message.

As for it not affecting lectures and tutorials, I'm sorry, but it will affect me. 90% of my lectures are given by hospital consultants and other guests who are not in the employ of UCD and have to fit the lecture in around their already busy schedules. My tutorials take place off-campus, in about 6 different hospitals, where not only do hospital staff have to be available, but also patients who have kindly agreed to meet with us and allow us to interview or examine them. We also have an extremely tight class schedule due to the fact that this part of the course finishes in 3 weeks, and any student who's had to reschedule even one tutorial so far this semester has found it extremely difficult to do so. I realise this doesn't apply to 99% of students but it affects a lot of Health Science students.

Anyway, rant over. Anyone else got a different take on this? I'm open to being convinced of the strike's merits, but only if I hear a damn good argument.

spudington16

Breezer wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks this is total lunacy? ... a 'strike' by students, where we sit around campus and watch films? The only message that's going to send out is that we've given ourselves a day off!

If we're going to do anything, I think more marches and a co-ordinated campaign to lobby Batt O'Keeffe and local Government TDs would be a much better approach. Do I think it will do any good? Probably not, because I think at this stage Fianna Fáil knows the game is up and will do precisely what it likes, but at least it would send the right message.

I'm in full agreement that this is a totally inappropriate form of fighting fees. We'll do our reputation as 'sponging' students no good by conforming to stereotypes and dossing for a day. Admittedly the battle against fees is essentially lost at this point (let's be realistic, folks) but I believe organised marches are a better way of getting our message across.

Furthermore, any SU backing of this is ludicrous; what kind of message does it give to waste our current free education by not attending classes?

passive

Anyone got the time to get a "no" campaign going? or even put up some posters by the blob? I'll be Ron-ing most of the candidates, because of the over-simplistic rabble rousing fees side to their manifestos (presidents especially), but I have too many essays to do this week to put any effort into this pro "going-to-****ing-class" campaign.

Incidentally, if the classes are still running, and it's a case of these tools physically blocking my access to lectures or tutorials, they will be the recipients of strong words.*

*written on my knuckles .

Breezer

passive wrote: »

Anyone got the time to get a "no" campaign going? or even put up some posters by the blob?

Not by myself, I'm in the aforementioned hospitals for tutorials half the time between now and Thursday. If I can get a group of committed people from a decent spread of faculties together between now and then I may (please note the emphasis) consider it, but I reckon most people who are anti-strike would also be pro-fees, so I have my doubts as to whether this would work. Any anti-strike, anti-fees, non-Health Science takers out there?

Incidentally, if the classes are still running, and it's a case of these tools blocking my access to class, they will be the recipients of strong words.*

*written on my knuckles .

I've been wondering about this myself, will there be a 'strike breaker' mentality? No word as to whether the staff would actually support this, so classes could well go ahead, although it's worth remembering that the lecturers are public servants and may well be in the mood to embarrass the government.

Mushy

spudington16 wrote: »

Furthermore, any SU backing of this is ludicrous; what kind of message does it give to waste our current free education by not attending classes?

From what I understand of it, it'll happen in conjunction with a UCD SIPTU protest against the pension levy, so there would be no classes that day anyway(whenever/if ever it goes ahead).

Otherwise, I'm kind off very indifferent to it. It wouldn't be the best way, but at a crucial time, I can't think of any other way.

Breezer

Mushy wrote: »

It wouldn't be the best way, but at a crucial time, I can't think of any other way.

As I suggested: more marches, protests outside the Dept. of Education, letters with a sh*t load of signatures sent to Batt O'Keeffe, copied to local Fianna Fáil and Green TDs. We could also organise meetings, inviting government figures so that views could be exchanged (these invitations would no doubt be ignored, but that's no reason not to issue them). All of the above could be co-ordinated with other colleges and universities to achieve a more prolonged national campaign that would be a lot less likely to leave a bad taste in the public's mouth.

Mushy

Breezer wrote: »

As I suggested: more marches, protests outside the Dept. of Education, letters with a sh*t load of signatures sent to Batt O'Keeffe, copied to local Fianna Fáil and Green TDs. We could also organise meetings, inviting government figures so that views could be exchanged (these invitations would no doubt be ignored, but that's no reason not to issue them). All of the above could be co-ordinated with other colleges and universities to achieve a more prolonged national campaign that would be a lot less likely to leave a bad taste in the public's mouth.

One reason why I can't see more marches working is that it would still leave a bad taste in the public's mouth. If we were to be seen as 'sponging' for that day, then what would they say if traffic was brought to a standstill through the city for another march? Would also leave a bad taste unfortunately.

The other proposals I would agree on though.

Breezer

Mushy wrote: »

One reason why I can't see more marches working is that it would still leave a bad taste in the public's mouth. If we were to be seen as 'sponging' for that day, then what would they say if traffic was brought to a standstill through the city for another march? Would also leave a bad taste unfortunately.

Fair enough, good point. But there's still room for lots of ideas that don't involve students staying in bed all day (because let's face it, that's what the majority will do if this goes ahead).

delta_bravo

Mushy wrote: »

From what I understand of it, it'll happen in conjunction with a UCD SIPTU protest against the pension levy, so there would be no classes that day anyway(whenever/if ever it goes ahead).

But surely not all staff are in siptu? I presume lecturers have their own union although they may go out on sympathetic strike. I am completely against it but like most on the thread and am pro fees so i would say we are in the minority.

I really dont see the purpose of it and am quite annoyed that it hasnt been really publicised. Id say the bar will be packed on the day of it.

abelard

The referendum doesn't have "SU backing". Referenda can be called by SU Council, but this one was called by an independent student (or students, I don't know) collecting the required amount of signatures from UCD Students.

The SU (by which I mean the Sabbats, exec, Council etc.), as such, is neutral on the referendum. Assistance is provided to an official agent for each side of the campaign. Thus far, an official yes agent has come forward, and has thus been given support in printing a manifesto. Noone has come forward asking to be the official no agent, so no material has been produced.

Red Alert

I think the way to protest would not be to take a day off, but have a mass demonstration in town on a Saturday and bring the city centre to a standstill.

El Siglo

A strike by students will do as much good as a strike by toddlers, I'm against the reintroduction of fees but this is a retarded course of action. Even the marches were a joke with placards like "Free Joseph Fritzl" and "Less Fees, More Gees", this is going to either:

-> provoke no response, maybe a little rté coverage on the 6-1 news or the 5.30 news on tv3, with feck all else said

Or

-> it's going to make student's look like a bunch of wasters, and may turn the general public (with the exception of indymedia types) against the anti-fees 'movement' (This is more of a possibility akin to the miners' strike of the 80's in England and Wales, especially the way rté and tv3 like to cut things in the governments' favour)

You see student's don't really have any bargaining chips, not like the OAP's and public service workers who are guaranteed to vote and are fairly important to the running of the country. Student's are seen as an economic drain to put it bluntly who don't turn out consistently to vote.

More protest marches, sit-ins, disrupt the dáil, talk to your local opposition td etc... but definately not a 'strike'.

Maybe if they introduced fees we could borrow money from anglo irish!

simonrooneyzaga

If this is passed and the strike goes ahead, will there be a barricade of **** trying to stop me from going to % tutorials?

Mushy

Breezer wrote: »

Fair enough, good point. But there's still room for lots of ideas that don't involve students staying in bed all day (because let's face it, that's what the majority will do if this goes ahead).

Yeah, this is what I ws trying to get at, as in, it needs better ideas to bring more attention on it.

delta_bravo wrote: »

But surely not all staff are in siptu? I presume lecturers have their own union although they may go out on sympathetic strike. I am completely against it but like most on the thread and am pro fees so i would say we are in the minority.

I really dont see the purpose of it and am quite annoyed that it hasnt been really publicised. Id say the bar will be packed on the day of it.

Oh I'm not pro-fees, I don't want them introduced, but do think there could be better ways at bringing the situation to their attention. And yes, the bar would be packed...wouldn't help one bit.

El Siglo wrote: »

A strike by students will do as much good as a strike by toddlers, I'm against the reintroduction of fees but this is a retarded course of action. Even the marches were a joke with placards like "Free Joseph Fritzl" and "Less Fees, More Gees", this is going to either:

-> provoke no response, maybe a little rté coverage on the 6-1 news or the 5.30 news on tv3, with feck all else said

Or

-> it's going to make student's look like a bunch of wasters, and may turn the general public (with the exception of indymedia types) against the anti-fees 'movement' (This is more of a possibility akin to the miners' strike of the 80's in England and Wales, especially the way rté and tv3 like to cut things in the governments' favour)

You see student's don't really have any bargaining chips, not like the OAP's and public service workers who are guaranteed to vote and are fairly important to the running of the country. Student's are seen as an economic drain to put it bluntly who don't turn out consistently to vote.

More protest marches, sit-ins, disrupt the dáil, talk to your local opposition td etc... but definately not a 'strike'.

Maybe if they introduced fees we could borrow money from anglo irish!

This would be a similar stance to mine. Don't think as much focus has been put on this as some other things by the media(who are undoubtedly very powerful in these situations), although in saying that, students haven't shown themselves to be too great at getting the point across(look at the example of placards in post above). I know I wouldn't take a protest seriously if it had these slogans.

So no to a 'strike' for me.

Mushy

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

If this is passed and the strike goes ahead, will there be a barricade of **** trying to stop me from going to % tutorials?

Oh wouldn't it be ironic, they say re-introducing fee's would block 3rd level education, and then they try block you going to tutorials? Throw that in their face nd they've no counter-arguement, and only takes roughly 5 seconds of your time.

To answer your question, there better not be!

delta_bravo

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

If this is passed and the strike goes ahead, will there be a barricade of **** trying to stop me from going to % tutorials?

Tell them education is a right and not a privilege and by definition they are opressing your human rights

simonrooneyzaga

Mushy wrote: »

Oh wouldn't it be ironic, they say re-introducing fee's would block 3rd level education, and then they try block you going to tutorials? Throw that in their face nd they've no counter-arguement, and only takes roughly 5 seconds of your time.

To answer your question, there better not be!

Nevertheless, ill be bringing a weapon in should they feel the need to obstruct. 5 Iron would seem appropriate to disperse the leftist crowd.

Tom65

I agree with what's been said so far. A strike isn't a consistent campaign tactic, it's a kneejerk reaction. A thorough campaign would consist of what people have already said: letters to TDs, get some in for debates, occasional protests.

If we do that, and they still introduce legistlation for fees, then you get to the protest, 'civil disobedience' malarky. Assuming you're against fees.

El Siglo wrote: »

Even the marches were a joke with placards like "Free Joseph Fritzl" and "Less Fees, More Gees", this is going to either:

Ah now, "Less Fees, More Gees" is fairly funny...

El Siglo

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

Nevertheless, ill be bringing a weapon in should they feel the need to obstruct. 5 Iron would seem appropriate to disperse the leftist crowd.

You wouldn't need a weapon, they're all a bunch of hippy sociology knobs (no offence intended to anyone doing sociology), just tell them "I'll fookin deck ya if ya down't get out me fookin waiy, ya gune!", wearing a celtic jersey might add to this as well!:D

Mushy

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

Nevertheless, ill be bringing a weapon in should they feel the need to obstruct. 5 Iron would seem appropriate to disperse the leftist crowd.

I'd go with my favoured 7-iron:D

El Siglo wrote: »

You wouldn't need a weapon, they're all a bunch of hippy sociology knobs (no offence intended to anyone doing sociology), just tell them "I'll fookin deck ya if ya down't get out me fookin waiy, ya gune!", wearing a celtic jersey might add to this as well!:D

Yeah, better be no offence to that sociology comment:D

lemon_sherbert

I completely agree, I haven't talked to anyone in college yet who agrees with it, though then again, not too many have heard of it either. I have no intention of missing a class, I only have every subject one day a week, plus tutorials. To miss a class means missing an exam question. I'm not willing to do that in the name of a campaign that is poorly organised, and not all too convincing.

The way the majority of the SU candidates are approaching it is driving me insane, no to any cutbacks, no to registration fees, no to fees for non-EU students - this isn't reasonable. When the money isn't there for teachers and special needs assistants in primary schools, the government are never going to stump up more money!

I think at this point, if we are to have any hope of staving off fees, we have to bring something to table. We need to suggest places that cutbacks can be acheived with the least overall impact. I think there need to be contingency plans in place in case fees do come back, inviting private funding for scholarships and grants.

Breezer

lemon_sherbert wrote: »

I think at this point, if we are to have any hope of staving off fees, we have to bring something to table.

You're 100% right. Initially, I opposed fees in any form, but I'm coming round to the idea of some sort of graduate tax, provided it's implemented in conjunction with some badly needed shaking up of the 3rd level sector (e.g. Brady being allowed to engage in massive retail therapy for things that were neither wanted nor needed). And yes, I know I'm parroting the Fine Gael party line there but it makes sense to me. The problem is that this is medium to long term thinking. The government is thinking short term on this one, and once upfront fees are back they'll be here to stay.

Anyway I'd like to keep this more related to the strike rather than fees in general, there's enough on those in the other thread. It's good to see a few other anti-fees, anti-strike people here too, it gives me a faint glimmer of hope that this might not actually be passed. I'm not holding my breath though, I can see a heck of a lot of first years (and others) voting for a free holiday.

Out of interest, when did people first hear about this? I saw something about it on the fees thread on Saturday, but it wasn't until this morning that I saw anything about it in college, and people seem to be saying similar things.

Mushy

Breezer wrote: »

You're 100% right. Initially, I opposed fees in any form, but I'm coming round to the idea of some sort of graduate tax, provided it's implemented in conjunction with some badly needed shaking up of the 3rd level sector (e.g. Brady being allowed to engage in massive retail therapy for things that were neither wanted nor needed). And yes, I know I'm parroting the Fine Gael party line there but it makes sense to me. The problem is that this is medium to long term thinking. The government is thinking short term on this one, and once upfront fees are back they'll be here to stay.

Anyway I'd like to keep this more related to the strike rather than fees in general, there's enough on those in the other thread. It's good to see a few other anti-fees, anti-strike people here too, it gives me a faint glimmer of hope that this might not actually be passed. I'm not holding my breath though, I can see a heck of a lot of first years (and others) voting for a free holiday.

Out of interest, when did people first hear about this? I saw something about it on the fees thread on Saturday, but it wasn't until this morning that I saw anything about it in college, and people seem to be saying similar things.

As said before, I'm still anti-fees, yet strike won't help. I will admit that I heard of this potential strike a long time ago(3 weeks ago), and signed some petition on the spot. But thinking about it now and knowing more about it, i'd vote against it.

Civpro

delta_bravo wrote: »

Tell them education is a right and not a privilege and by definition they are opressing your human rights

lol

Chakar

I'm actually amazed at the irony of it, since third level education is supposed to be a "right" as they claim. Nevertheless I'll vote against it, and hope it doesn't pass. But if it does, I won't be upset as it'll give the Government more political capital to reintroduce fees, which I'm favour of along with the NUI Galway 'Rag Week' fiasco.

delta_bravo

Chakar wrote: »

along with the NUI Galway 'Rag Week' fiasco.

That seems to have caused irreparable damage to the anti fees campaign as public opinion of students as lazy, troublemaking alcoholics was pretty much justified in galway last week

1968

I completely support this referendum and will be urging all my mates to vote YES.

We've signed the petitions, sent the letters, had the lake side rally, had the public meetings, blockaded and protested against visiting FF TDs, held mass protests in town and occupied government offices. We've been ignored.

It is now time to take the next step.

A complete mass walk out of all UCD students and a 24 'shutdown' of the college (linked with the planned INTO strike on March 30th or a SIPTU Education Branch strike) would send a very very strong message to the government.

The idea of a Student Strike is regularly and effectively used by the 'student movement' all over the world including Canada, Italy, France etc...

Breezer

1968 wrote: »

We've signed the petitions, sent the letters, had the lake side rally, had the public meetings, blockaded and protested against visiting FF TDs, held mass protests in town and occupied government offices. We've been ignored.

Some of those actions were a bit questionable too IMO...

A complete mass walk out of all UCD students and a 24 'shutdown' of the college (linked with the planned INTO strike on March 30th or a SIPTU Education Branch strike) would send a very very strong message to the government.

What message exactly? That we are willing to jeopardise the education we say we can't do without and need to have provided for us? I mean if a group of workers goes on strike, the resulting chaos highlights the fact that they are providing an essential service. If a group of students goes on 'strike,' well... what exactly happens, other than us inconveniencing ourselves?

The idea of a Student Strike is regularly and effectively used by the 'student movement' all over the world including Canada, Italy, France etc...

The Yes manifesto mentioned this; can you provide any specific examples as to when such a tactic was used, in what circumstances and to what effect?

1968

Breezer wrote: »

As I suggested: more marches, protests outside the Dept. of Education, letters with a sh*t load of signatures sent to Batt O'Keeffe, copied to local Fianna Fáil and Green TDs.

We've had local marches in Sligo, Dublin, Munster, Athlone etc.. Most SU have also collected thousands of signatures in various petitions.

I wish we could beat fees by just collecting signatures or having a picket outside the Dept. of Education but the government are very serious in bringing back fees and we must be serious in stopping them. I think a 24 student strike/shut down is a good step.

passive

1968 wrote: »

We've had local marches in Sligo, Dublin, Munster, Athlone etc.. Most SU have also collected thousands of signatures in various petitions.

I wish we could beat fees by just collecting signatures or having a picket outside the Dept. of Education but the government are very serious in bringing back fees and we must be serious in stopping them. I think a 24 student strike/shut down is a good step.

A good step how? For those of us who want to go to class, it's a bad step. For those of you naive enough to think it will actually change anything, it's a futile step. It's a good step for you, because you want to FIGHT THE POWER and stick it to the man (nice screenname, by the way, vive la France! Mai '68!).

But if they ignored your signatures (my god...really... are they done in pen!?), blocking the TD offices, protests with thousands (gasp, really, thousands!?) of people, why would they suddenly pay attention when you win the retard award by taking a day off college to (jesus, I can't believe this isn't a joke) show how important college is. Or do you just want to wrap a scarf around your face and maybe throw some **** at the pigs?

I'm Ronning all the presidents because none of them have the balls to say anything other than "no to fees." If someone said "Fees are happening, let's make sure it's implemented in the best way possible, and grants are improved accordingly" I'd vote for them, and would intend to turn up at the polls for reasons other than voting No to this stupid crap. Incidentally; boardsies, spread the word. NO to stopping us from going to college. NO to waving socialist party/SWP banners over SU marches. No to BS agendas. Turn up at the polls, vote NO to all that, and get yourself a "VOTED, SO PLEASE **** OFF" sticker to drown out the yelling and rabble rousing of the "political candidates"

Breezer

1968 wrote: »

We've had local marches in Sligo, Dublin, Munster, Athlone etc.. Most SU have also collected thousands of signatures in various petitions.

And all we can do is keep the pressure up so they know the issue isn't going to go away and that it will come back to haunt them at election time. Although I have my suspicions that the Fianna Fáil leadership has consigned itself to the inevitable at this stage, which is why I'm suggesting lobbying the local TDs.

I wish we could beat fees by just collecting signatures or having a picket outside the Dept. of Education but the government are very serious in bringing back fees and we must be serious in stopping them. I think a 24 student strike/shut down is a good step.

How exactly will it add to what has gone before, or make us seem more serious? If anything, it will make us look a lot less serious, laughable in fact, and it will weaken the whole campaign.