Is there anybody here who still considers themselves a Fianna Fail supporter ?

achtungbarry

If so, why ?

Fianna Fail were at 22% in the last MRBI Irish Times Polls.

I am curious as to who these 22% are and their reasons for sticking with the party ?

ionix5891

could be because the alternatives are not exactly much better?

population

I am sick of people saying that there is no credible alternative. I have been genuinely impressed with Labour. There could be another Spring Tide.

Also surely anyone, and I mean ANYONE is better than this shower.

Bottle_of_Smoke

There's always gonna be civil war politics diehards. I wouldn't vote for em but theres not much else to vote for.

Jimdagym

I am a FF supporter and will remain so. They have made the situation marginally worse, yes. Given the time i believe they shall see us through. I have yet to hear alternative, discriptive solutions to any of the problems we are facing. "mini-budget" cries the opposition. "raise taxes" cry the opposition. Thanks for the insight, but its easy to shout it from the other side of the house. We all know these are needed. The details are harder to nail down. How much to raise taxes, how many to leave out of the tax net? How much we can cut back on spending, and from where? Of course no-one is shouting the answers to that across the house.
I have to laugh at people who seem to think that if FG had won the last election the recession might have passed us by, or solved and over us by now.
Enda kenny is not a man i could stand behind to lead this country. And Eamon Gilmore, no matter how well he does in opinion polls, all i can see is a shop stewart in a suit.

Pride Fighter

The people want more, the people want Gilmore:)

Time Magazine

Jimdagym wrote: »

marginally worse

Lol.

Jimdagym

Jimdagym wrote: »

I am a FF supporter and will remain so. They have made the situation marginally worse, yes. Given the time i believe they shall see us through. I have yet to hear alternative, discriptive solutions to any of the problems we are facing. "mini-budget" cries the opposition. "raise taxes" cry the opposition. Thanks for the insight, but its easy to shout it from the other side of the house. We all know these are needed. The details are harder to nail down. How much to raise taxes, how many to leave out of the tax net? How much we can cut back on spending, and from where? Of course no-one is shouting the answers to that across the house.
I have to laugh at people who seem to think that if FG had won the last election the recession might have passed us by, or solved and over us by now.
Enda kenny is not a man i could stand behind to lead this country. And Eamon Gilmore, no matter how well he does in opinion polls, all i can see is a shop stewart in a suit.

All I can see is Brian Cowen getting pissed in a pub.Has he curbed his drinking yet?

nesf

achtungbarry wrote: »

If so, why ?

Fianna Fail were at 22% in the last MRBI Irish Times Polls.

I am curious as to who these 22% are and their reasons for sticking with the party ?

Considering the mood in this forum, I'd be shocked if many of them would speak up for fear of being "digitally mugged".

You do have to consider though that not everyone lives in a constituency where there's much choice in the matter. Where I grew up it's been 2 FF and 1 FG or 2 FG and 1 FF since almost the beginning of the State (there was a Rural Labour TD back in the day). There just isn't any strong party infrastructure there except for FF and FG. Because of the "two party" divide it's extremely tribal and bluntly given that it makes little difference to the constituency with either of the two combinations of FF and FG TDs it doesn't provide much impetus for change.

Now if FF and FG finally got around to merging and we had a single centre right party then we might see some action but so long as the two civil war parties are there you'll have dyed in the wool Blue shirts and Fianna Fáil fanatics in most parts of the country for better or (most likely) worse.

The Raven.

nesf wrote: »

Considering the mood in this forum, I'd be shocked if many of them would speak up for fear of being "digitally mugged".

‘Digitally mugged’. That’s a great expression. I think you have coined just a new term !!

I was baptised Fine Gael, with an innate distaste for anything even remotely associated with FF (Shh! Can’t even say the name out loud):eek:!! Having lived across the pond, where there was only one Tory Party, Thatcher the ‘Snatcher’ was the only choice. So I gravitated towards Labour. However, that particular Labour Party wasn’t inclined to jump into bed with a bunch of sinners. Subsequently, I am now more of a born again, political atheist. The salaries alone of Irish politicians are enough to put anyone off.

The question is who to vote for. It would appear that Fine Gael are once again the best bet, but for some reason I keep seeing Eamon Gilmore as Taoiseach, with Richard Bruton as Tánaiste/Minister for Finance. It’s like trying to choose the cast for a film. Realistically though, I’d settle for Enda Kenny. I feel, at least, I could trust him.

nesf

The Raven. wrote: »

I was baptised Fine Gael, with an innate distaste for anything even remotely associated with FF (Shh! Can’t even say the name out loud):eek:!!

The converse here, FF households on both sides running back to my great grandfathers. Though, in fairness to my maternal grandfather who was heavily involved with the party he became extremely disillusioned when Haughty became party leader (over the arms running, he always used to refer to him as the "gun runner") and my paternal grandfather was never heavily involved it was more a FG was the party of the farmers thing back then and my family had no land. Though I'm sure the view in your family is quite different.

That said, both my parents openly admit there's little difference between the two parties other than historical and I was raised more to have a "not vote for FG" bias than a vote for FF one. Personally I defected to the PDs when I was old enough to form political opinions of any certainty and even then I never felt any loyalty to the party. I'm relatively agnostic party wise and base most of my voting on economic policy (social policy being relatively homogeneous among the three main parties for all intents and purposes).

Now "partyless" I'm a political whore willing to trade my votes for liberal economic policy. Which means I'm going to be pretty frustrated with the next decade of international and national politics from the looks of things.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ionix5891

population wrote: »

I am sick of people saying that there is no credible alternative. I have been genuinely impressed with Labour. There could be another Spring Tide.

Also surely anyone, and I mean ANYONE is better than this shower.

im not defending them ive no love for FF, just gave a possible idea

Labour do look the best of a bad bunch currently

BUT if the rumors of the SF alliance are true then they will not get my vote :eek:

the_syco

achtungbarry wrote: »

If so, why ?

Fianna Fail were at 22% in the last MRBI Irish Times Polls.

I lol at these polls, esp as FG is either a point or two above FF, everyone else is below FF, but FG doesn't seem to have any real plans, other than "I told you so", and "that's a bad plan".

lmtduffy

ionix5891 wrote: »

im not defending them ive no love for FF, just gave a possible idea

Labour do look the best of a bad bunch currently

BUT if the rumors of the SF alliance are true then they will not get my vote :eek:

Im weary of sinn fien to an extent,
but I think if they do go into coalition with labour they wont get to do any real damage, think of they way the greens are in power now.

I thin the benefits of a strong left coalition is exactly what this country needs right now and has needed for a long time.

Just look at the effects strong left parties had in the Nordic states during the recession in the 1930's, they put the effort into social protection and provided an adequate system during the recession, then when things boomed it really took off resulting in a selection of the most socially advanced states on the planet.

but sure we'd be happier to keep our few quid for our selves rather than pay for public services that would benefit everyone.

cm2000

lmtduffy wrote: »

Im weary of sinn fien to an extent,
but I think if they do go into coalition with labour they wont get to do any real damage, think of they way the greens are in power now.

What is it about the Green Party that people think is left wing? To be comparable with Sinn Fein? They are environmentalists but they are also unashamedly capitalist in nature..... Am i wrong about this?

asdasd

I thin the benefits of a strong left coalition is exactly what this country needs right now and has needed for a long time.

Sure what the country needs now is a party even more in hock to Public Sector Unions. That'll solve the problems.

lmtduffy

cm2000 wrote: »

What is it about the Green Party that people think is left wing? To be comparable with Sinn Fein? They are environmentalists but they are also unashamedly capitalist in nature..... Am i wrong about this?

I didnt mean it in that sence, couold have made it clearer,
I menat that their policies were watered down or rationalised by their coalition partner, that is what I would hope would happen with this coalition.

lmtduffy

asdasd wrote: »

Sure what the country needs now is a party even more in hock to Public Sector Unions. That'll solve the problems.

Excuse me but the real victims of this recession are the socially excluded who suffered during the boom and will suffer now even more in the recession, and the labour party is by far the most pro-active party when it comes to this ie, free health care, education, removing any barrier to the betterment of ones life.

And unionisation is not a bad thing, do you not think workers have a right to effect their working conditions?, if they've been given too many privileges that is the governments fault, it is the fault of their attitude in general to keeping people happy, the idea that they will stay in power if they throw money around.

I do not blame the unions for accepting what some might consider excessive benefits, but I will not look down on them for giving the idiots in government a hard time when they try to take back what they gave away due to there short sight.

Darragh29

Jimdagym wrote: »

I am a FF supporter and will remain so. They have made the situation marginally worse, yes. Given the time i believe they shall see us through. I have yet to hear alternative, discriptive solutions to any of the problems we are facing. "mini-budget" cries the opposition. "raise taxes" cry the opposition. Thanks for the insight, but its easy to shout it from the other side of the house. We all know these are needed. The details are harder to nail down. How much to raise taxes, how many to leave out of the tax net? How much we can cut back on spending, and from where? Of course no-one is shouting the answers to that across the house.
I have to laugh at people who seem to think that if FG had won the last election the recession might have passed us by, or solved and over us by now.
Enda kenny is not a man i could stand behind to lead this country. And Eamon Gilmore, no matter how well he does in opinion polls, all i can see is a shop stewart in a suit.

Do you accept that the political party that you support, for the last 12 years, has developed and then implemented a fundamentally flawed economic model that was based on an unsustainable housing bubble, that your party selfishly supported for one reason only: in order to keep it's developer friends, who have been making huge politcal donations to Fianna Fail over the last 12 years, for the purposes of getting Fianna Fail re-elected. The financial model imposed upon the people of this country over the last 12 years has been nothing less than a conspiracy between Fianna Fail, big developers and big builders.

Who has to bail them all out now??? The people of this country!

Your political party is guilty of treason against this country. As if it isn't bad enough that the money generated was all based on an self defeating financial model which has us all screwed now and was always unsustainable, the money that was taken in by the same government was largely p*ssed all over the place on poorly thought out projects like e-voting machines, PPARS projects, tribunals costing hundreds of millions of Euro, (that was set up exclusively to investigate CORRUPT Fianna Fail politicians!!!), a Health Service that is still dysfunctional, I could go on and on and on...

spank_inferno

FF may have done well in that poll simply because of the makeup of the poll itself.

I dont have the sample details but I believe that it was a sample of 1,100 respondants.
AFAIK the polling companies ring landlines, this immediately eliminates households without landlines (which tend to be poorer or new/young householders).

Pensioners have done well with this government and I'd imagine they make up a significant portion of those indicating their support.



I know its speculation but my point is the survey results can have a lot to do with who were surveyed as well as the performance of any given government.

Zzippy

Jimdagym wrote: »

I am a FF supporter and will remain so. They have made the situation marginally worse, yes. Given the time i believe they shall see us through. I have yet to hear alternative, discriptive solutions to any of the problems we are facing. "mini-budget" cries the opposition. "raise taxes" cry the opposition. Thanks for the insight, but its easy to shout it from the other side of the house. We all know these are needed. The details are harder to nail down. How much to raise taxes, how many to leave out of the tax net? How much we can cut back on spending, and from where? Of course no-one is shouting the answers to that across the house.
I have to laugh at people who seem to think that if FG had won the last election the recession might have passed us by, or solved and over us by now.
Enda kenny is not a man i could stand behind to lead this country. And Eamon Gilmore, no matter how well he does in opinion polls, all i can see is a shop stewart in a suit.

If we all know these are needed, then why is Lenihan ruling out a mini-budget and raising taxes until the Budget in October? Head in the sand stuff from FF again... :rolleyes:
And the Opposition are not privy to the full details of the State finances, thats the preserve of the Minister for Finance, and thats why they cannot give firm details of how much taxes should be raised by. But at least they recognise the need for it...

ionix5891

lmtduffy wrote: »

Im weary of sinn fien to an extent,
but I think if they do go into coalition with labour they wont get to do any real damage, think of they way the greens are in power now.

I thin the benefits of a strong left coalition is exactly what this country needs right now and has needed for a long time.

Just look at the effects strong left parties had in the Nordic states during the recession in the 1930's, they put the effort into social protection and provided an adequate system during the recession, then when things boomed it really took off resulting in a selection of the most socially advanced states on the planet.

but sure we'd be happier to keep our few quid for our selves rather than pay for public services that would benefit everyone.

I would have to disagree, any such coalition would result in a loss of vote from this voter. Despite what FF has done (not done) for this country I stand by my gut feeling that SF are an even bigger bunch of jokers, and I learned to listen to my belly

SF shouldn't be allowed anywhere near power, these guys are dangerous and i still haven't got an answer in a recent thread about their mysterious and contradictory economic policy, you think right about now be a good time to come up with one and win people over

Darragh29

Everyone is saying "frontload" this pain now and we'll get on with it. Alan Dukes, who was the Minister for Finance last time we were in a situation like this, last week on Vincent Browne's Tonight show, even said his only regret back in the 80's was that he didn't make the cuts quick enough, and because he didn't, it ended up that something like 70% of all government revenue was spent servicing the national debt.

Here we are now having learnt absolutely nothing, we spent the last 12 years apparently lowering the nation debt, what are we doing now??? Ramping it back up again!!!

You couldn't make it up, the only word for this is INCOMPETENCE...

astrofool

On the other hand, we have quite a low debt as % of GDP, and it looks like the value of money will fall (as every other country is running large deficits). It may be a good time to borrow (though not at the level we currently are, but say 6-7% of GDP), invest in infrastructure projects, completely reform the public sector to not be a waste of space, and, hopefully turn it all around inside a few years (we'd also need to substantially lower the cost of living and the wage levels, but Germany was able to do that, so should we).

Enda Kenny is nothing but a gombeen, who favours implementing under utilised projects in the middle of nowhere (WRC), over projects which will make us genuinely competitive again (Metro). It's such a pity, as FG should be able to walk an election, but seem to persist in making themsevles entirely unelectable.

Pride Fighter

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The people want more, the people want Gilmore:)

I never trust a politician who stands beside every march,protest and union strike going.
Populism at it's worst.

darragh29 wrote:

Do you accept that the political party that you support, for the last 12 years, has developed and then implemented a fundamentally flawed economic model that was based on an unsustainable housing bubble, that your party selfishly supported for one reason only: in order to keep it's developer friends, who have been making huge politcal donations to Fianna Fail over the last 12 years, for the purposes of getting Fianna Fail re-elected. The financial model imposed upon the people of this country over the last 12 years has been nothing less than a conspiracy between Fianna Fail, big developers and big builders.

I think your language there is overplayed but you do have a point albeit to my eyes a slightly incorrectly analyised one.[Don't take that as a criticism as I'm only going to profer a different view as such in what follows ]

I'd make the following comments/caveats in relation to it :

1.The model itself isn't/wasn't flawed.The implimentation of it was.There was no regulation.House prices and loans should have been regulated properly.There is and always will be a significant part for construction to play in this or any economy.
No regulation on the number of houses built in the year-there should have been quota's for instance [easy to say now!]
2.People aren't stupid-they bought into the celtic tiger in a big way and lapped it up like as if it was going to go on forever in the un policed manner that it was.
A downturn specefic to Ireland was inevitable as supply equalled demand and growth couldnt be sustained due to uncompetiveness.
The downturn would be caused by people's greed...looking for more and more in their wage packets and companies putting up prices adlib.
We'd have had the consequences of that via jobs going to cheaper economies and losses in construction jobs.

The rest of it though has been undoubtedly escalated by the global downturn due to other peoples mistakes and we have paid in unequal measure because our banks have had our own home grown dependence on construction.

Who has to bail them all out now??? The people of this country!

Ultimately thats what I resent.
I see a bloated government asking me to cough up for their ineptitude.
Theres no other way though.The economy is too complicated.
People are too complicated.
Theres only so many ways or places to tax before the disadvantages out weigh the advantages and revenue falls due to tax rises either harming enterprise or enhancing thrift ie less consumer spending.

Eamon Gilmore may be seen as the Obama of pollsters right now [he's not by a long shot you know..] but he's doomed in the long run as human nature will defeat him if he gets into government.
His popularity will fade as human greed in a mass way decides again that he in the future or whoever is the new bogey boy starts causing hurt in peoples pockets.
Ditch hurlers don't always win games when they are finally called to hurl.

destroyer

ionix5891 wrote: »

could be because the alternatives are not exactly much better?

Even if you knew for a fact that the alternatives were going to be worse
you should still vote out FF and vote in someone else.
If the alternative proves to be worse vote them out and vote FF
or someone else again in.
The only way to improve government is to keep voting out those in
power until they get the message that they have to seriously up
their game to be allowed remain in power.
This has never really being done in this country partly because of
the "the other crowd would be no better" attitude and partly
because of civil war politics.
It might take a few elections but eventually the message would
get across. GET WORKING OR GET OUT.

Even if the only other candidate is a clown or a donkey or a
cross between the two , you have a patriotic duty to vote
for them just to get FF out.

Darragh29

astrofool wrote: »

On the other hand, we have quite a low debt as % of GDP, and it looks like the value of money will fall (as every other country is running large deficits). It may be a good time to borrow (though not at the level we currently are, but say 6-7% of GDP), invest in infrastructure projects, completely reform the public sector to not be a waste of space, and, hopefully turn it all around inside a few years (we'd also need to substantially lower the cost of living and the wage levels, but Germany was able to do that, so should we).

Enda Kenny is nothing but a gombeen, who favours implementing under utilised projects in the middle of nowhere (WRC), over projects which will make us genuinely competitive again (Metro). It's such a pity, as FG should be able to walk an election, but seem to persist in making themsevles entirely unelectable.

I don't know who I'm more p*ssed off with recently, Fianna Fail or Fianna Gael... We are not borrowing to fund infrastructure, we are borrowing to turn on the light bulbs in the morning and pay people on the dole, that's the problem...

gurramok

You've changed your tune on the banks BB.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57481860&postcount=201

Because this credit crunch has been caused by international banks losing confidence in U.S non performing loans.
Irish banks on the other hand have had billions in profits meaning their loans have to date been performing well despite the nay sayers.
Thats an undeniable fact.
The rug has been pulled out from under them by international conditions and not Irish ones.
Had there been no problem with crazy U.S derivatives.There would have been no problem in Irish banking.
We would have had our soft landing at some stage.

A downturn specefic to Ireland was inevitable

Its good to see you change opinion, i had thought you were one of the FF'ers at the time of that debate in October:D

jimmmy

Darragh29 wrote: »

We are not borrowing to fund infrastructure, we are borrowing to turn on the light bulbs in the morning and pay people on the dole, that's the problem...

we are also borrowing to pay a huge public service, inc their pensions, and a huge political infrastructure

gurramok

gurramok wrote: »

You've changed your tune on the banks BB.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57481860&postcount=201

In fairness a lot of water has passed under the bridge since that post.
100k more on the dole and a total collapse in demand in the economy for one thing..

Its good to see you change opinion, i had thought you were one of the FF'ers at the time of that debate in October:D

I like to think of it as evolving...