To the public sector bashers - why did you not get a job in the public sector..

RealityCheck

amacachi wrote: »

I didn't get a job because when I phoned to book a test I was told all the spaces were full and I would be called when more venues were arranged. 2 days later I phoned again and it rang out, never got that call.

Strangely any of my mates who got in (all of whom already had family in) never had the same problem. Weird no?

Its not what you know its who you know as the saying goes. It the sad reality. Equal opportunities my arse:rolleyes:

irishgrover

achtungbarry wrote: »

To the public sector bashers - why did you not get a job in the public sector..

...when times were good ?

There was ample opportunity during the good times to get a relatively safe job in the PS with a decent pension.

To those who constantly whine about the job security and good pension in the PS, why didn't you get a job in the sector for these reasons ?

1. Can't speak Irish
2. Worked extensively with Public Service employees through my own work, did not and still do not like the work ethic / practices
3. Indirectly related to #2 above - could not ever consider working in a place were innovation and hard work is frowned upon as a threat to the masses

amacachi

RealityCheck wrote: »

Its not what you know its who you know as the saying goes. It the sad reality. Equal opportunities my arse:rolleyes:

Ah don't be silly, the whole system is completely transparent. Phone rang out so I sent them an e-mail to complain which was never acknowledged or replied to. It's so transparent everything passes right through it.

dresden8

markpb wrote: »

And with that one post, you've just demonstrated to other civil servants the attitude that puts the private sector off supporting your row with the government over the pension levy.

It's not my representation of the public service, nor is it my representation of the private sector.

Tell me where I've inaccurately summarized the feeling of this and other threads on boards.ie

whiterob81

amacachi wrote: »

I didn't get a job because when I phoned to book a test I was told all the spaces were full and I would be called when more venues were arranged. 2 days later I phoned again and it rang out, never got that call.

Strangely any of my mates who got in (all of whom already had family in) never had the same problem. Weird no?

personally, never had this problem. I had no relatives or ties with the place before getting in here. I do know that I was waiting a while before i got the exam. it was like trying to book a driving test.

they're notoriously slow at getting back to people in the public appointment service.

dresden8

Plus there's not going to be much hiring in the future, or possibly the recent past.

amacachi

whiterob81 wrote: »

personally, never had this problem. I had no relatives or ties with the place before getting in here. I do know that I was waiting a while before i got the exam. it was like trying to book a driving test.

they're notoriously slow at getting back to people in the public appointment service.

Not saying everyone without family in has this problem, but no-one with famliy in has had it that I know of.

Don't think it's just slowness, been waiting 7 months so far. :P

whiterob81

amacachi wrote: »

Not saying everyone without family in has this problem, but no-one with famliy in has had it that I know of.

Don't think it's just slowness, been waiting 7 months so far. :P

I think you're underestimating how slow the civil service can work! takes about 3 or 4 months to get exam results back.

it probably might have something to do with what dresden was saying about the recruitment freeze that's going to be taking place.

But anyways, getting back on topic. I can definitely see plenty of reasons why people would have rejected jobs in the public service over the years that wouldn't have had anything to do with money. A lot of the work is incredibly tedious. The unionisation of the whole thing has driven away a good few people away that I know. And the slow pace of work can sometimes be soul destroying. I know myself that I've been left for weeks on end in some sections twiddling my thumbs. I remember ringing up a personnel officer and asking to be moved to a different section because I'd literally had no work. His response was "Enjoy it, loads of people would love to be in your position". pr1ck

I consider myself pretty fortunate that I've actually managed to get working in an IT area and have been able to apply some of what i've learned in college. And there have been times where i've had the oppurtunity to do training courses that otherwise wouldn't have been available but if you get stuck in a bad section, it can completely sap every last ounce of morale, drive or motivation that you might have.

Also, the section that a person is placed in is fairly arbitrary. It seems to be more related to filling numbers rather than utilizing an individual's particular skillset

ManFromAtlantis

achtungbarry wrote: »

To the public sector bashers - why did you not get a job in the public sector..

...when times were good ?

There was ample opportunity during the good times to get a relatively safe job in the PS with a decent pension.

To those who constantly whine about the job security and good pension in the PS, why didn't you get a job in the sector for these reasons ?

i realised i had a heart beat and could actually do things like ....work.

amacachi

whiterob81 wrote: »

I think you're underestimating how slow the civil service can work! takes about 3 or 4 months to get exam results back.

it probably might have something to do with what dresden was saying about the recruitment freeze that's going to be taking place.

But anyways, getting back on topic. I can definitely see plenty of reasons why people would have rejected jobs in the public service over the years that wouldn't have had anything to do with money. A lot of the work is incredibly tedious. The unionisation of the whole thing has driven away a good few people away that I know. And the slow pace of work can sometimes be soul destroying. I know myself that I've been left for weeks on end in some sections twiddling my thumbs. I remember ringing up a personnel officer and asking to be moved to a different section because I'd literally had no work. His response was "Enjoy it, loads of people would love to be in your position". pr1ck

I consider myself pretty fortunate that I've actually managed to get working in an IT area and have been able to apply some of what i've learned in college. And there have been times where i've had the oppurtunity to do training courses that otherwise wouldn't have been available but if you get stuck in a bad section, it can completely sap every last ounce of morale, drive or motivation that you might have.

Also, the section that a person is placed in is fairly arbitrary. It seems to be more related to filling numbers rather than utilizing an individual's particular skillset

Tests have already happened for that cycle. Maybe I'm on the list for the next ones in 5 or 6 years time?

whiterob81

amacachi wrote: »

Tests have already happened for that cycle. Maybe I'm on the list for the next ones in 5 or 6 years time?

I'm sure they'll be right with you once the economy recovers!

population

dresden8 wrote: »

So he gave up a well paid job and took a pay cut because he was being "teased" by the lads?

Well, at least he's happy now.

Man the IMF are going to have a field day with these people

newtlover

I worked for Dublin city council for 2 years.

Everybody on my floor (maby 150 people) had fake jobs.

They had nothing to do, they had a 2 hour breckfast and a 3 hour lunch break. The rest of the time was spend reading the paper or chatting. No work was ever done by anybody.

From newcomers to seinor executive engineers. You are talking about people that are on 50 grand a year and do absolutely nothing.

Because promotions are not based on merit, the longer people are there there the more they are promoted. So you have very seinor and highly paid people with new mercs in the carpark who haven't done a lick of work in decades.

It's a disgrace.

I also worked in south dublin county council for a year and saw the other side if the coin. Myself and some others there worked very hard there to keep utilities running and solve problems.

So I realise that not all public servants are freeloading and i don't want to label everyone.

But the 150 people that i worked with in Dublin Corporation should be sacked.

akaredtop

The Public Sector is a massive failure. It needs fixing.The first step is to get in the IMF and sack most of these lazy b*****ds.

thebman

I took any job going when I got out of college. Applied for everything and took the first offer I got. That is how the real world works.

The reality is there were feck all jobs going in the public service when I graduated because it was already overly bloated. There were like 5-10 jobs going on publicjobs.ie and none were in the area I worked. Look around at the different bodies including the ESB and couldn't find an vacancies.

Everyone I know who was in the public sector has been thought to be a lucky bastid since I did get out of college even those working for private companies with contracts to the public sector.

I don't get how it has been better to work in the private sector for the past few years. That is clearly bullsh**. Nobody in my area would have taken a job in the private sector over the public sector if offered both.

irish_bob

akaredtop wrote: »

The Public Sector is a massive failure. It needs fixing.The first step is to get in the IMF and sack most of these lazy b*****ds.

the public sector has more support than we might think , while most people dont work in the ps , this being a small country , hardly anyone in the country doesnt have either a wife , husband , son , daughter etc who does in fact work in the ps , irish people like to keep money in the family so even the country needs to ditch some dead wood , many will be happy to see the status quo remain , its a case of self interest be it personal or by proxy

*Honey*

ixoy wrote: »

I don't like the idea that there's very little merit-based approach to work - it does protect the lazy worker who gets the same pay increase as the hardest worker at the same grade. I don't think that's right (and I don't believe PMDS works either)

Even though I'm a public sector worker, I do agree with this point of view. There's a lot wrong with the system and it's next to impossible for one person to change it ... I can get very unmotivated at times because of some of the ludicrious decisions being made, or the fact that some people are never managed and get away with murder whilst others (generally the ones who keep their head down and just get on with their jobs) are over-managed to the nth degree.

However, I've worked in the private sector and this happened too - the reality is that good managers are about as rare as a good bureaucratic system.

I believe we need public sector workers but we should have good managers and good systems - to make changes like that would be immense, expensive, take a seriously long time but could, in the end, benefit those of us who do work our asses off and are tarred with the same "lazy good for nothing" brush.

Teacherman

Part of the problem in the Public Sector is the quality of leadership. The bleeding hearts have taken over Education, meaning we now have Muppet's running riot in classrooms, while the majority get held back. Well done! Because God help us if we turfed out wasters. I mean in real life you do nothing and disrupt your colleagues-sure

you are

kept on-

aren't

you??!

*Honey*

I have to say that I have read this and many other of the Public Sector related threads and I have one question:

Where on earth do these people work who get to do so little?

Where I work, I work my ass off... I've never had time to read the net or the paper, I get a lunchour but don't get time for a cuppa in the mornings. I come in when I'm sick and I've worked overtime whenever asked. I pride myself on my work and I work very very hard. I've only ever got a promotion based on an interview board of minimum 5 people. I don't recognise the public sector that I've read about at all.

I will say there are lazy bastards in my place, people who are obviously swinging the lead and get away with it and I blame the management who don't come down on them like a ton of bricks. They should, just as they should in the private sector.

I've worked both in the private and public sector (about equal time for both) and I've worked the same in either sector - I give 110% of myself and I take pride in my work.

I just don't recognise the descriptions here and I wonder how many other public sector workers don't either... I don't like being tarred with the same brush as the lazy bastards and nor do I think I should be.

hardCopy

*Honey* wrote: »

I have to say that I have read this and many other of the Public Sector related threads and I have one question:

Where on earth do these people work who get to do so little?

Where I work, I work my ass off... I've never had time to read the net or the paper, I get a lunchour but don't get time for a cuppa in the mornings. I come in when I'm sick and I've worked overtime whenever asked. I pride myself on my work and I work very very hard. I've only ever got a promotion based on an interview board of minimum 5 people. I don't recognise the public sector that I've read about at all.

I will say there are lazy bastards in my place, people who are obviously swinging the lead and get away with it and I blame the management who don't come down on them like a ton of bricks. They should, just as they should in the private sector.

I've worked both in the private and public sector (about equal time for both) and I've worked the same in either sector - I give 110% of myself and I take pride in my work.

I just don't recognise the descriptions here and I wonder how many other public sector workers don't either... I don't like being tarred with the same brush as the lazy bastards and nor do I think I should be.

I think even the most anti-PS people recognise that there are loads of hard working public servants (I've seen them, they do exist), but there is also a significant minority who are useless. What people really want is for the lazy folk to be laid off.

The problem is that when the government decide to make cuts they're not targeted. The decisions on where to make the cuts are not based on who is doing the least work they're based on what is easiest to cut.

Even if the government were to make a certain number redundant it would end up being a voluntary scheme where all the experienced staff, close to retirement take it, then any lower level skivers (who cost less) are kept on.

What's needed is to remove the least productive staff on a compulsory scheme, any and all cuts should be based on individual performance. At least this would reward the Public Servants who are working hard

nesf

*Honey* wrote: »

I will say there are lazy bastards in my place, people who are obviously swinging the lead and get away with it and I blame the management who don't come down on them like a ton of bricks. They should, just as they should in the private sector.

This the point for many of us. These lazy bastards are getting the same pay as the hardest working person in the same grade and on the same increment. Management can't come down hard on these people because bluntly apart from giving out to them they can't demote the person, dock their pay or fire them and the lazy bastards know this.

So long as unions insist on everyone in the same grade getting the same pay we're going to have to have cuts that hit the best workers as hard as the worst. This is the core problem. We have a lot of waste in the public sector not because everyone in the public sector is a lazy bastard but because once a lazy bastard gets in it's nearly impossible to get rid of them and morale is sapped because of this.

Why work your ass off when the guy next to you is on the same pay and does only the minimum amount of work necessary?

BroomBurner

As a public sector worker who knows what side my bread is buttered on, I would absolutely LOVE to see PMDS being made more professional.

If I could change one thing, it would be that I would increase increments to €2,500 but it would only be received by someone that gets a 4 or a 5 on their PMDS. If you are doing your job to a decent standard, you will get a 3 and a pat on the back. If, however, you go out of your way to do a good job, work hard and prove yourself, than you'll get a 4 or a 5 and should receive a bonus.

This would mean that PMDS would have to have a level of independence though and be verified by both a line manager and their line manager on production of a report for your work that year. As in, there must be evidence that you've been doing a good job, not just given to you because your line manager likes you.

The most infuriating and demoralising part of working for the PS is seeing wasters getting paid more than you while you work your hardest.

kippy

Listen, each to their own and all that.
I am a relatively selfish b4stard when it comes to life. Life is short. "Work" is a necessary part of it. My chosen field is IT Support, my chosen location is the West of Ireland. IT jobs in any sector are thin on the ground in this part of the World. Good IT jobs even thinner. You see I knew this when I went back to college to do IT and from leaving college my aim was to eventually end up in the Public Sector. Why, because in general, the terms and conditions of employment, while they may be more "rigid" (no bonus's, no negotiation of pay, a perceived lack of ladders, a perceived loss of motivation) are far "better" for me.
A generally shorter working week, flextime, a generous pension and relative stability.
I've worked in the private sector to get experience and certs and know how it works.
I've worked hard, and continue to work hard, in every job I've ever done, its something that was instilled in my by my parents. Once I am in the office door to when I go home, I work as hard as anyone else anywhere.

I can understand why the atmostphere doesnt suit everyone, yes the increments system does suck, but theres plenty positives to it.
No one should believe themselves to be martyrs for either going into Public or Private sectors. You make the choice that suits you and you lifestyle choices at the time. If you believe the grass to be greener elsewhere, no matter where it is, you should do what you can to get there while accepting the various pros and cons of each. The public sector is far from perfect, I would like to see it perfected like a lot of people who work in the sector on these boards.

Of course everyone cant work in the public sector and we do need visionary people, in both sectors, in the private to create jobs and revenue and in the public to make and implement the changes that are needed.

Also, I cant condone one of the replies earlier about one sector "feeding off society" I amnt sure if the poster was refering to public or private sector, but I sincerely hope he wasnt referring to the public sector.

ParkRunner

BroomBurner wrote: »

As a public sector worker who knows what side my bread is buttered on, I would absolutely LOVE to see PMDS being made more professional.

If I could change one thing, it would be that I would increase increments to €2,500 but it would only be received by someone that gets a 4 or a 5 on their PMDS. If you are doing your job to a decent standard, you will get a 3 and a pat on the back. If, however, you go out of your way to do a good job, work hard and prove yourself, than you'll get a 4 or a 5 and should receive a bonus.

This would mean that PMDS would have to have a level of independence though and be verified by both a line manager and their line manager on production of a report for your work that year. As in, there must be evidence that you've been doing a good job, not just given to you because your line manager likes you.

The most infuriating and demoralising part of working for the PS is seeing wasters getting paid more than you while you work your hardest.

I agree with the whole idea of the increment being linked to your PMDS rating. As far as I know if you get a 2 or under you are not eligible for promotion and personally I wouldn't give an increment either to those who have earned a 2. My idea, for what it's worth would be to give something along the line of 50% of the increment for a 3 rating, 75% for a 4 rating and 100% for a very rare 5 rating.

On another note now that the pension levy has kicked in, I wouldn't be surprised to expect a further public service targetted cut after hearing today's exchequer figures! The promotion I got last June is fast being eroded by the pension levy, income levy, cancellation of the pay deal which in total will amount to about 10%! With no prospect of promotion also I think it is fair to say the public sector have taken quite a hit.

Until we know what lies ahead and what the Government strategy is, the private sector will suffer badly because I for one as a public sector worker am concentrating on clearing the last of my loans instead of spending my money in case the worst comes to the worst and redundancies do happen.

whiterob81

EF wrote: »

I agree with the whole idea of the increment being linked to your PMDS rating. As far as I know if you get a 2 or under you are not eligible for promotion and personally I wouldn't give an increment either to those who have earned a 2. My idea, for what it's worth would be to give something along the line of 50% of the increment for a 3 rating, 75% for a 4 rating and 100% for a very rare 5 rating.
.

Increments are linked in with PMDS ratings in this department but according to a source in salaries only 40% of the staff actually fill them out.

Also, in larger sections what generally tends to happen is that the line managers tend to fill out the same thing on everyone's pmds, thus having to avoid individual meetings, and gives everyone the same rating no matter how competent they are. Often, you'll get a manager who'll give everyone a 4 or 5 just to appease them all.

What is needed is independent, unanounced inspection of different sections

whiterob81

hardCopy wrote: »

Even if the government were to make a certain number redundant it would end up being a voluntary scheme where all the experienced staff, close to retirement take it, then any lower level skivers (who cost less) are kept on.

This may be a sweeping generalisation (as was your comment) but what I've found here is that it's the people that are closest to retirement that do the least work.

I've heard so many people say "Oh, sure I'm only 10 years away from retirement, why would I need to bother doing....". A lot of the younger workers do tend to be more enthusiastic and feel like they have something to prove. I think that gets slowly eroded over time.

markpb

BroomBurner wrote: »

This would mean that PMDS would have to have a level of independence though and be verified by both a line manager and their line manager on production of a report for your work that year. As in, there must be evidence that you've been doing a good job, not just given to you because your line manager likes you.

I think your idea is a good one but you've highlighted the major problem with it. I don't have it to hand but a report last year said 98% of all public and civil servants got a 3 or higher in the last round of PMDS. That's clearly ridiculous and shows either laziness on the part of the management or that the entire system is a joke. A bell curve applied to the score would likely give a truer indication of peoples performance.

ixoy

markpb wrote: »

I think your idea is a good one but you've highlighted the major problem with it. I don't have it to hand but a report last year said 98% of all public and civil servants got a 3 or higher in the last round of PMDS. That's clearly ridiculous and shows either laziness on the part of the management or that the entire system is a joke. A bell curve applied to the score would likely give a truer indication of peoples performance.

Exactly - it was in the Sunday Times and showed how hardly anyone got a 1, and below 1% even got a 2 I believe in some departments. Beyond the fact that it appears they've lax standards (certainly more than 1% of people I work with, shouldn't qualify for a 3 or more!), it's potentially not tenable now. It'd be good to see a stronger bell curve adopted and those who get a 1, twice in a row, shown the door for example, replaced with someone who will actually work.

From my own experience, I'd also broadly agree it's the older workers who are less tractable. I've seen one, for example, who'd tell someone on the phone that they're too busy, hang up, and then go straight back to reading the Metro. Same person was also the most vocal about the levy. That's the sort of person who is badly tarnishing the CS/PS and who the unions refuse to have measures to deal with.

hardCopy

whiterob81 wrote: »

This may be a sweeping generalisation (as was your comment) but what I've found here is that it's the people that are closest to retirement that do the least work.

I've heard so many people say "Oh, sure I'm only 10 years away from retirement, why would I need to bother doing....". A lot of the younger workers do tend to be more enthusiastic and feel like they have something to prove. I think that gets slowly eroded over time.

I didn't mean to imply that all lower level staff are skivers by the way, nor that all experienced staff are good. The problem is more that experienced people, regardless of ability, may be more tempted by VR and newer people, regardless of ability, may be less tempted (with payments linked to time served). What's needed is a system that retains the most effective staff at all levels while removing those who do the least work.

FrankGrimes

That Sunday Times article showed that only 18 people out of >44,000 in-scope for the PMDS system received the lowest rating on the 5 point scale, with 270 in the second lowest rating.

That's 0.6% of employees being categorized as Requires Improvement effectively. Industry standard for companies in the private sector that operate a merit based performance management systesm is for 5-10% being in the Requires Improvement category.

Attainment rates for the top scores were extremely high also and ridiculed the notion that a 5 is for an exceptional performance.

Bottom line: results conclusively demonstrated that the PMDS execution is not as planned and the scheme should really be scrapped (due to the time cost of implementing it) or revamped so that a standard curve must be adhered to.