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To the public sector bashers - why did you not get a job in the public sector..
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FrankGrimes wrote: »That Sunday Times article showed that only 18 people out of >44,000 in-scope for the PMDS system received the lowest rating on the 5 point scale, with 270 in the second lowest rating.
That's 0.6% of employees being categorized as Requires Improvement effectively. Industry standard for companies in the private sector that operate a merit based performance management systesm is for 5-10% being in the Requires Improvement category.
Attainment rates for the top scores were extremely high also and ridiculed the notion that a 5 is for an exceptional performance.
Bottom line: results conclusively demonstrated that the PMDS execution is not as planned and the scheme should really be scrapped (due to the time cost of implementing it) or revamped so that a standard curve must be adhered to.
I think one of the reasons that a lot of managers give such high ratings to such useless workshy people is because they're just as useless and workshy. I think a lot are in the mindset of "Well, I can't really give this person a mark of 1 because he's skiving off all the time when I've left at 3.00 everyday. What if they make a complaint about me to someone higher up?" You know what they say about people in glass houses0 -
FrankGrimes wrote: »That Sunday Times article showed that only 18 people out of >44,000 in-scope for the PMDS system received the lowest rating on the 5 point scale, with 270 in the second lowest rating.
That's 0.6% of employees being categorized as Requires Improvement effectively.
My father is a manager in the Civil Service, and I've spoken to him about this.
On a 1 to 5 basis of points, no-one will EVER get a 1, because it then becomes impossible to horse-trade (effectively move) them on from your department in the future.0 -
I'd believe this - so that person on 1 should be shown the big "EXIT" sign. There's a lot of people out there who would be willing to work hard at such a job; give them a shot. I'm sure unions would try to push back on this idea but, it certainly seems that many of the CS/PS workers here agree with a complete overhaul in principle.On a 1 to 5 basis of points, no-one will EVER get a 1, because it then becomes impossible to horse-trade (effectively move) them on from your department in the future.0 -
I'd believe this - so that person on 1 should be shown the big "EXIT" sign. There's a lot of people out there who would be willing to work hard at such a job; give them a shot. I'm sure unions would try to push back on this idea but, it certainly seems that many of the CS/PS workers here agree with a complete overhaul in principle.
Yeah, I think the harder working PS/CS members would like to see if revamped.
If I had the chance, this is what I would like to see happen:- Anyone receiving a 1, even with a warning at the 6 month mark, would be fired
- Anyone receiving a 2 would be placed on 6 months probation. If no improvement to a 3, they would also be fired
- Anyone receiving a 3 - well done, you're doing your job excellently as per your role profile
- Anyone receiving a 4 - excellent, you've shown you are interested in your job and can prove you're a cut above, here's a €2,500 increment. If you drop to a 3 next year, no increment
- Anyone receiving a 5 - better than excellent, here's a €3,000 increment for going above and beyond what your duties normally are
- 6 month PMDS stage interview MUST be undertaken, with paper evidence. This is the stage to tell workers where they are aiming for and what stage they are at
- End of year review interview MUST be undertaken and include the following: self-assessment of employee, including examples of where they were above average, if applicable; line managers assessment. The current form does not go far enough to allow this, needs a complete overhaul
- Once both parties are happy, the assessment is sent to an independent auditor for review. The problem with this, is who this should be. HR would be the ideal for this and would be properly trained
- Failure to do the above would be a failure of a line manager to do their job and would cease their increment (as they would be liable for a 2 or a 3)
- Any instances of warranted public complaints would also be a part of every individuals assessment
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Ok .. I've gone through PMDS (TDP & PDP) three times and have never received a score? I didn't even know they were scored! Is it a different system for the CS than the PS? My place of work is in education...
Hmmmmmm wonder what my points were? Bloody better have been 5 or I'd be mad as hell!!!0 -
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PMDS is a complete and utter joke.
I'm a manager in the public service (but was in the private sector beforehand where the firm I had operated a proper performance management system) and where I work PMDS is regarded a form filling exercise.
We're not allowed give ratings except "exceeded expectation." - There's no grading curves - no rewards - no sanctions - and no way of exiting someone if they're persistently crap.
Actually in my experience the only way to exit someone if they're garbage is to promote them!!! I've seen it happen three times now where poor performers are moved onwards and upwards to get them out of the way - sends a great signal to the majority of staff who are by and large conscientous and hard working.
TGPS
http://thisgruntledpublicservant.blogspot.com/0 -
Apart from the large fee paid to the consultants to design this performance management system and roll-out the training documentation and systems to support it, I wonder what the total cost of running this system is?
I believe it was Deloitte, but I have no beef with their side of things - it's what happened after it went into implementation phase that is the problem as it is clear any grading guidelines they provided are not being adhered to.
I think the current treatment of the system does a disservice to those employees that are truly high-performers - the bloated numbers of high ratings does not allow their exceptional performance to be distinguished from solid performers receiving overly-high ratings due to poor management decisions.
Aside from any maintenance/support costs for whatever systems PMDS runs on, I wonder what the total amount of hours spent by personnel on preparing for, conducting and documenting these reviews. It must add up to a substantial number of hours. As the primary purpose was initially really to determine who does and doesn't get salary increases and the system is obviously dysfunctional, it would seem to be a smart move at this stage to terminate it.
The freed hours could be put to better uses to drive productivity increases elsewhere or maybe the whole system could actually be implemented in the way it is supposed to and drive towards a true mertiocracy where high performers are rewarded and motivated to keep on achieving and low performers are given a clear message.0 -
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Public Servant here. I've worked for a local authority for the last 15 years and I would accept a lot of the criticisms.
When I joined first I considered it a temporary thing but after 4 years I got promoted into IT and have been a web developer ever since. I am self taught and love the work most of the time.
During the boom times I had several friends in the private sector earning 3/4 times what I was earning for similar work and while I would grumble from time to time I was aware that I had made a choice. I wasn't prepared to work until 9 p.m. for some possible reward down the line. I am happy doing the 9-5 thing for a reasonable salary. It always irked a bit that people spoke to you as if you were something less than them. Not everyone but there was quite a bit of condescension during the "Celtic Tiger" days.
Now the bad times have hit. I can only speak for our council but at the end of last year we were told to reduce our salary budget by a certain percent. I don't know the exact figures but most temporary staff were let go, the rest put on rolling 3 month contracts. Unpaid leave in various forms was offered and taken up by a lot of people. So plenty of people have lost their jobs here, plenty of people have opted for reduced hours. I would like to know how much salary figures have been reduced in the public sector. Perhaps somebody knows where that figure might be available. Just to put my mind at ease that it wasn't enough to save everyone else so we needed to be levied some more.
The Pension Levy is now law and is here for the rest of my career. Will you be unemployed for the rest of your career? Will times be bad for the rest of our careers? Well we'll be paying a levy thats for sure. If you think any Government is going to take away this money spinner then forget it. Taking money off public sector workers is popular. No politician is going to try reversing it.
Yes the public sector is inefficient but it's no more guilty on many counts than the private sector. While we were hiring too many staff that may not have been required developers were sticking their name to every patch of grass in the country and bankers were throwing cash at them.
Where I work can be pretty frustrating when I see how badly things are managed, cash being spent unnecessarily, time being poorly spent, wasted. Thankfully things might change a bit now. The problem is these things exist more so in the good times than the bad. We persist in living it up during the boom and reacting too late when things sink.
At some point down the line I hope the Government can show that the Pension Levy has helped stimulate jobs and protect peoples pensions - that it served it's purpose. I'll bet they won't and I'll bet nobody will ask them to.
Finally when I ring some private company with a query and find myself confronted by incompetence, ignorance and so on can someone explain to me why this efficient private sector company didn't weed this person out?0 -
The Pension Levy is now law and is here for the rest of my career. Will you be unemployed for the rest of your career? Will times be bad for the rest of our careers? Well we'll be paying a levy thats for sure. If you think any Government is going to take away this money spinner then forget it. Taking money off public sector workers is popular. No politician is going to try reversing it.
I personally can see the pension levy being at least reduced when (god knows when) the economy starts to recover. It mightn't make economic sense but decisions made for political gain don't always make economic sense. With the potential to attract an extra few tens of thousands of votes by campaigning with the promise to reduce the pension levy, a political party could attract quite a significant portion of the electorate (depending on how the private sector is performing). Just like the income levy will be scrapped.0 -
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I personally can see the pension levy being at least reduced when (god knows when) the economy starts to recover. It mightn't make economic sense but decisions made for political gain don't always make economic sense. With the potential to attract an extra few tens of thousands of votes by campaigning with the promise to reduce the pension levy, a political party could attract quite a significant portion of the electorate (depending on how the private sector is performing). Just like the income levy will be scrapped.
You'll lose as many votes as you'll win. Doesn't make sense to me. I would expect most politicians to never mention this one and leave well enough alone.0 -
I personally can see the pension levy being at least reduced when (god knows when) the economy starts to recover. It mightn't make economic sense but decisions made for political gain don't always make economic sense. With the potential to attract an extra few tens of thousands of votes by campaigning with the promise to reduce the pension levy, a political party could attract quite a significant portion of the electorate (depending on how the private sector is performing). Just like the income levy will be scrapped.
Oh, how naive you are.
And I'm private sector - remember the Health Levy?
It's still here, it's not going away you know...
Even this utter dope knows the score:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget-2009/news/hanafin-admits-temporary-1pc-pay-levy-could-last-for-years-1499608.html0 -
Oh, how naive you are.
And I'm private sector - remember the Health Levy?
It's still here, it's not going away you know...
Even this utter dope knows the score:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget-2009/news/hanafin-admits-temporary-1pc-pay-levy-could-last-for-years-1499608.html
I would still bet that it will be scrapped, as a political tool, even if the equivalent revenue is generated in some other capacity0 -
The Pension Levy is now law and is here for the rest of my career. Will you be unemployed for the rest of your career? Will times be bad for the rest of our careers? Well we'll be paying a levy thats for sure. If you think any Government is going to take away this money spinner then forget it. Taking money off public sector workers is popular. No politician is going to try reversing it.
What an amazingly blinkered approach.
Totally blind of the thousands who have lost their job and tens of thousands who have had pay cuts in excess of the pension levy.
The public service are getting a good deal.
It shameful and embarrasing this "we always get picked on" attitude. Are you really totally blind to what's going on in the private sector? The unions are a disgrace in the attitude they are instilling. Obviously they want to join the politicians and bankers in that regard, and they are doing a damn good job about it.
And less of the bull about all your friends earning 300%-400% more than you in the good times. Nonsense. And public sector have received very good rises over the last 6/7 years. And you can be damned sure any PAYE workers in the private sector earning big salaries worked damn hard for them.
Woe is you. :rolleyes:0 -
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The Rooster wrote: »What an amazingly blinkered approach.
Totally blind of the thousands who have lost their job and tens of thousands who have had pay cuts in excess of the pension levy.
The public service are getting a good deal.
Not blind at all. I'll take a pay cut no problem but a levy that will never go away? Give me a break. I'm happy to bail you guys out every time it goes wrong. Sure what else are we here for but to sit on our arses and wait until the private sector has sucked a boom dry and needs some help.The Rooster wrote: »It shameful and embarrasing this "we always get picked on" attitude. Are you really totally blind to what's going on in the private sector? The unions are a disgrace in the attitude they are instilling. Obviously they want to join the politicians and bankers in that regard, and they are doing a damn good job about it.
You are correct. We don't always get picked on. Just patronised in the good times and criticised in the bad. Friends of mine have lost their jobs so I'll say again since you ask again I'm not blind to it. I want better solutions than looking around at the quick fixes. Yanking the old nutshell of the lazy public sector out of the hat yet again.The Rooster wrote: »And less of the bull about all your friends earning 300%-400% more than you in the good times. Nonsense. And public sector have received very good rises over the last 6/7 years. And you can be damned sure any PAYE workers in the private sector earning big salaries worked damn hard for them.
I'm in IT and those I knew working in the private sector in IT were deffinately earning that much but I wasn't making that bg a fuss out of it. You seem to think I was. No point in even attempting to discuss "worked damn hard for them" as you have obviously decided who works hard and who doesn't. No matter what I say you have your scapegoats. Good luck to you.
I'll say it again. The public sector has plenty to answer for. They hired too many people, carried and still carry too much dead weight. Spend money unwisely, don't promote the right people and so on. You want to point the finger and not consider that the approach by the Government in it's desperate attempts to fix things might be all wrong then fine. WOE is you.0 -
Really? The company I work with would pay, for a top-end graduate, somewhat in the same line as you would for an EO (the work the grad would do would be more in line with an EO, more demanding than that of a CO or SO).I'm in IT and those I knew working in the private sector in IT were deffinately earning that much but I wasn't making that bg a fuss out of it.
Pay increases have been mild over the years in general - ahead of the CS I guess on a year-on-year increase, but in turn they (for the most) had to work harder. Certainly nothing like 300-400% or even 150% for comparable levels. I guess you've been maybe working a long number of years?
I think the levy is still needed, but you're right - it's a quick fix solution and there's a lot more they could do to reform the civil and public service. They could save even more money by reforms that, if done right, would reduce numbers, reduce costs, and not necessitate a further increase in levies but it takes time and they need the money now.I'll say it again. The public sector has plenty to answer for. They hired too many people, carried and still carry too much dead weight. Spend money unwisely, don't promote the right people and so on. You want to point the finger and not consider that the approach by the Government in it's desperate attempts to fix things might be all wrong then fine. WOE is you.
Quick question: Would you like to see more of the dead weight removed, improved PMDS and rankings (as suggested above by other CS/PS members)?
Would you also have prefered a pay cut?
Incidentally, how many of the PS/CS workers will be getting a pay increase this year as they go up the next ladder on the rung? I'm well aware it won't mitigate the cost of the levy, but all the same it will reduce its impact.0 -
achtungbarry wrote: »To the public sector bashers - why did you not get a job in the public sector..
...when times were good ?
There was ample opportunity during the good times to get a relatively safe job in the PS with a decent pension.
To those who constantly whine about the job security and good pension in the PS, why didn't you get a job in the sector for these reasons ?
Because I have drive and ambition, these are quaities that reap rewards in the private sector. They are probably frowned upon in the heavily unionised public sector.
I like working with an innovative, cutting edge company where novel ideas are encouraged.
From the outside the public sector seems inefficient, unproductive -why would somebody want to get stuck in a rut like that?0 -
Because I have drive and ambition, these are quaities that reap rewards in the private sector. They are probably frowned upon in the heavily unionised public sector.
I like working with an innovative, cutting edge company where novel ideas are encouraged.
From the outside the public sector seems inefficient, unproductive -why would somebody want to get stuck in a rut like that?
well said i run my own company and from my experiences of the public sector
it would be a total nightmare to be stuck working in those jobs job security or not0 -
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Because I have drive and ambition, these are quaities that reap rewards in the private sector. They are probably frowned upon in the heavily unionised public sector.
I like working with an innovative, cutting edge company where novel ideas are encouraged.
From the outside the public sector seems inefficient, unproductive -why would somebody want to get stuck in a rut like that?
Total generalisation - there are lots of areas of the public service that are not the 2 hour breakfast/3 hour lunchbreak type places. I've never been more busy than I am right now, I don't have enough time in the day. There are a lot of people in the public service that give 110% ... this sort of generalisation doesn't help anyone.0 -
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Really? The company I work with would pay, for a top-end graduate, somewhat in the same line as you would for an EO (the work the grad would do would be more in line with an EO, more demanding than that of a CO or SO).
Pay increases have been mild over the years in general - ahead of the CS I guess on a year-on-year increase, but in turn they (for the most) had to work harder. Certainly nothing like 300-400% or even 150% for comparable levels. I guess you've been maybe working a long number of years?
I'm talking lead developer here really. I'm in IT since 1998 and after a few years got promoted to a specific level which would probably equate to something like that. The pay level was Grade 6. I'm not talking graduates. Is that really what people are thinking when they argue salary in public/private sector? Perhaps the friends I'm thinking about were isolated examples. I think regardless of pay what has always wound me up is the shoddy software we have bought from the private sector. I do, surpisingly, take pride in my work and could see a lot of these guys coming in with asp.net applications (my area) created with a bit of drag and drop, charging through the nose for it and making us reliant on their support at some ridiculous per/hour prices. In fairness my bosses would bear some of the blame for that.I think the levy is still needed, but you're right - it's a quick fix solution and there's a lot more they could do to reform the civil and public service. They could save even more money by reforms that, if done right, would reduce numbers, reduce costs, and not necessitate a further increase in levies but it takes time and they need the money now.
I still haven't seen any figures on how much the public sector reduced their salary budget. Overtime cancelled, temporary staff let go and so on but more is required and required of the PS. Reform should have been looked at 10 years ago not as a gut reaction to the times but thats the sickener that is politics. Perhaps I should read up more on this as I still am not clear on what the levy is needed for as opposed to pay cuts etc. I assume the Government has some document somewhere explaining why the levy is needed and where the money will go.Quick question: Would you like to see more of the dead weight removed, improved PMDS and rankings (as suggested above by other CS/PS members)?
As has already been said PMDS is a joke. We don't rate people on it. Even if we did you can't rely on a boss doing so honestly. At the moment every 6 months I enter the projects I will have to do in the next 6 months and this is reviewed at the end to see if they were completed in time without any consideration for projects that arise during this 6 months. It's messy and makes little or no sense. It might make more in the admin area where a job is clearly defined but I have requests for work/projects weekly.
We have a County Manager who pushed IT solutions from the day he arrived but he wanted it all done yesterday so we were left developing applications quickly that worked but not the way we would like, not designed, specced or planned properly. Just thrown together. Local Authorities are handed awards from various areas every year and we've won a few and these are the biggest joke of them all. Some of the things that have won awards have had no benefit to the public at all. They just look good. A journalist could have a field day analysing some of the projects in our place (not just IT).Would you also have prefered a pay cut?
Incidentally, how many of the PS/CS workers will be getting a pay increase this year as they go up the next ladder on the rung? I'm well aware it won't mitigate the cost of the levy, but all the same it will reduce its impact.
I've said already a pay cut would be fine. It's not ever-lasting like this levy. I'm here 15 years. I'm at the top of my scale. Promotion is never going to happen. Hasn't been for years for reasons I won't go into here. Nothing to do with the slump. I can't speak for other areas in the council but last year we agreed a years pay freeze and I would imagine if talks continued we would have agreed the same for a longer period.
You mentioned the dead weight. Yes there is dead weight and I doubt this is exclusive to the public sector no matter what anyone might say. Nepotism for example is common everywhere I would imagine. In the last couple of years I have seen a few of these kinds of people pushed out gently. It will remain a problem I'm sure.
We are voting next week for a one-day strike on the 30th as you probably know. While I have every sympathy for those who have lost their jobs I think we need to at least ask the question. Is there a better, fairer way to take money from us. I have no problem with a one day strike. In 15 years here admin staff/IT staff have not striked once. I fear we are seen as pushovers and it might do no harm to remind the government that we are not. Union influence in the council despite what has been said has almost disappeared over the last 5 years. Perhaps a symptom of the boom has meant less issues but management introduced partnership which successfully neutered the power of the union. Both a good and bad thing but mainly good for management in my view.
There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about the public service. I can only speak from my own point of view but I think it would be sad if people who have lost their jobs/pensions etc. see any action from us as simple 2 fingers in their direction.0 -
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Because I have drive and ambition, these are quaities that reap rewards in the private sector. They are probably frowned upon in the heavily unionised public sector.
I like working with an innovative, cutting edge company where novel ideas are encouraged.
From the outside the public sector seems inefficient, unproductive -why would somebody want to get stuck in a rut like that?
From the outside the private sector looks like a money grabbing, corner-cutting bunch of charlatans. I've been genuinely shocked at some of the products IT companies have demoed, some of it bought without my knowledge and dumped on my lap. If this is software designed and devloped by people with drive and ambition then they have disguised it well. But then I'm looking at it from the outside.
As a web developer I have been actively encouraged for years to bring my ideas to the table. Part of that is because of the nature of IT but since you want to wave that tanishing brush around I thoght I'd mention it.
Yet another reference to our terribly heavily unionised work conditions. The union is hardly noticable but it is there if an employee has an issue. I couldn't call myself a big fan of some of the people I have come across in the union but I've met many very well intentioned people too. It seems we have reached the point now where having a system in place to protect the rights of the employee is a bad thing but you shouldn't worry. As I said the union is less and less apparent. It will always come to fore in situations like this but in the last few years county managers have fought to push the unions out of the picture and it has worked very well for them. Hooray for management.0 -
Maybe the real answer is that.They were just too dumb?.0
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achtungbarry wrote: »To the public sector bashers - why did you not get a job in the public sector..
...when times were good ?
There was ample opportunity during the good times to get a relatively safe job in the PS with a decent pension.
To those who constantly whine about the job security and good pension in the PS, why didn't you get a job in the sector for these reasons ?
Simply, my goal was to work in the best, most highly respected place possible in my area, to work with the best people in the area I work in. The public sector was not this in my case, even though it was an option (a lesser one though).0 -
Undoubtedly - we've all seen dreadful products developed by private sector companies. Mostly it's those developing a product in a niche market so they become the go to "off the shelf" solution. It'd be a fallacy for us to think the private sector is always producing great stuff, but I do believe it leaves greater room for individuals to be more inventive and recgonsed for their talent - again, based on my own personal experience.I think regardless of pay what has always wound me up is the shoddy software we have bought from the private sector. I do, surpisingly, take pride in my work and could see a lot of these guys coming in with asp.net applications (my area) created with a bit of drag and drop, charging through the nose for it and making us reliant on their support at some ridiculous per/hour prices. In fairness my bosses would bear some of the blame for that.
I thought that is was related to pensions? If they cut the current wage, then the pensioner tied to the wage at that level has their pension reduced. With a levy the final pension remains the same, so no pension drop (and maybe any legal issues associated with that?).Perhaps I should read up more on this as I still am not clear on what the levy is needed for as opposed to pay cuts etc. I assume the Government has some document somewhere explaining why the levy is needed and where the money will go.
Would you feel then that these are projects that should never have been done? Would these have reduced man hours and thus pay from the public purse if not pursued? Or are there better, more worthwhile, projects there that would add value?They just look good. A journalist could have a field day analysing some of the projects in our place (not just IT).
I believe it's more difficult to get rid of these people in the public sector. A reform of something like PMDS might help but I do believe it'd be strongly resisted by unions. I'll agree all places have dead weight, but only in the CS have I ever seen people openly reading newspapers or magazines, putting their feet up on the desk, or even sleeping atop their keyboards and not even getting a reprimand.You mentioned the dead weight. Yes there is dead weight and I doubt this is exclusive to the public sector no matter what anyone might say. Nepotism for example is common everywhere I would imagine. In the last couple of years I have seen a few of these kinds of people pushed out gently. It will remain a problem I'm sure.
Pay cuts would be the obvious way - if they still though generated the same amount of returns (if not more). Or job cuts - would you prefer to work that bit harder or for others to have to? I again see how slow certain people operate and feel that what's taking 3 people 8 hours, could be done by 2 people in 9: I'm aware of one situation, for example, where a new recruit was told to slow down his rate of work because he was making the rest of his team look bad. He duly fell in line. That's the sort of efficiency we need to question and the sort that makes the CS a bit of an unpalatable target for myself.Is there a better, fairer way to take money from us.
It will happen though because the line coming across from most of the union leaders has rarely been about presenting alternate cost cutting measures in the civil/public service and instead going to old favourites about obese felines and other handy standbys.I think it would be sad if people who have lost their jobs/pensions etc. see any action from us as simple 2 fingers in their direction.0 -
Because I have drive and ambition, these are quaities that reap rewards in the private sector. They are probably frowned upon in the heavily unionised public sector.
I like working with an innovative, cutting edge company where novel ideas are encouraged.
From the outside the public sector seems inefficient, unproductive -why would somebody want to get stuck in a rut like that?
Because they have a public service ethos0 -
From the outside the private sector looks like a money grabbing, corner-cutting bunch of charlatans. I've been genuinely shocked at some of the products IT companies have demoed, some of it bought without my knowledge and dumped on my lap. If this is software designed and devloped by people with drive and ambition then they have disguised it well. But then I'm looking at it from the outside.
You got shoddy software because you have shoite people in the Public Sector who recommend purchase but never get fired for their mistakes. People in the Private Sector don't last if they make the equivalent mistakes.
How about a bit of perspective here for public service and IT...
Remember the electronic Voting? Who made the recommendations and didn't research enough to push through a system without a solid audit trail? We blame the politicians for this when in fact it would be a great idea if the Public Service IT wasn't so clueless as to how to specify the requirements correctly. How hard is it to ask for an audit trail and security?
And lets not forget PPARS! BTW - who's head rolled for that? Who was even in charge? It's another example of how useless people in the Public Service IT are. But I'm not surprised seeing as you have people in the same job for life without any exposure to what's going on in the real world.
Sure, you can come back and say that the private sector contracted to build the system are responsible for the mess. But if I went out to my local motor dealer, asked him to supply a car which subsequently didn't work, I sure as hell wouldn't be paying for it.
But hey - Public Sector IT doesn't have to suffer any consequences as it's not going to affect them so what the hell, keep on rolling out of the office at 4p.m. while the rest of us work what hours are needed...0 -
jimmycrackcorm wrote: »You got shoddy software because you have shoite people in the Public Sector who recommend purchase but never get fired for their mistakes. People in the Private Sector don't last if they make the equivalent mistakes.
How about a bit of perspective here for public service and IT...
Remember the electronic Voting? Who made the recommendations and didn't research enough to push through a system without a solid audit trail? We blame the politicians for this when in fact it would be a great idea if the Public Service IT wasn't so clueless as to how to specify the requirements correctly. How hard is it to ask for an audit trail and security?
And lets not forget PPARS! BTW - who's head rolled for that? Who was even in charge? It's another example of how useless people in the Public Service IT are. But I'm not surprised seeing as you have people in the same job for life without any exposure to what's going on in the real world.
Sure, you can come back and say that the private sector contracted to build the system are responsible for the mess. But if I went out to my local motor dealer, asked him to supply a car which subsequently didn't work, I sure as hell wouldn't be paying for it.
But hey - Public Sector IT doesn't have to suffer any consequences as it's not going to affect them so what the hell, keep on rolling out of the office at 4p.m. while the rest of us work what hours are needed...
The public service had a good history of developing their own IT solutions to their own IT problems.
Unfortunately, it is government policy that nothing is worth doing unless some fat PD/FF hanger-on is getting a huge wedge of cash for doing that work. The public service has lost that expertise and is held to ransom by the private sector.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 8336
jimmycrackcorm wrote: »You got shoddy software because you have shoite people in the Public Sector who recommend purchase but never get fired for their mistakes. People in the Private Sector don't last if they make the equivalent mistakes.
How about a bit of perspective here for public service and IT...
Remember the electronic Voting? Who made the recommendations and didn't research enough to push through a system without a solid audit trail? We blame the politicians for this when in fact it would be a great idea if the Public Service IT wasn't so clueless as to how to specify the requirements correctly. How hard is it to ask for an audit trail and security?
And lets not forget PPARS! BTW - who's head rolled for that? Who was even in charge? It's another example of how useless people in the Public Service IT are. But I'm not surprised seeing as you have people in the same job for life without any exposure to what's going on in the real world.
Sure, you can come back and say that the private sector contracted to build the system are responsible for the mess. But if I went out to my local motor dealer, asked him to supply a car which subsequently didn't work, I sure as hell wouldn't be paying for it.
But hey - Public Sector IT doesn't have to suffer any consequences as it's not going to affect them so what the hell, keep on rolling out of the office at 4p.m. while the rest of us work what hours are needed...
Check my previous post. I don't excuse the decision makers in the Public Service. I know nothing about IT in the Civil Service since I would make the distinction between the PS and CS. I know the Civil Service setup is different to ours. In fact I am probably a rare enough example in that I developed applications in-house wheras a lot of smaller local authorities would have had no choice but to take whatever the LGCSB recommended to them. Don't get me started on the LGCSB. Another organisation that would benefit from some closer scrutiny.0
, my decimated income cannot stretch to gambling on such things 
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