Ken Shamrock to fight former WWE star Bobby Lashley

rovert

Fall_Guy wrote: »

To be honest, i don't think that's what sport is (or at least, what it should be) about. Personally i want to see the best fighters fight each other regardless of their out-of-ring charisma. To say a fighter is not doing their job if they are not actively trying to sell a ppv is wrong for me.

I mean, BJ promoted the hell out of the GSP fight and probably helped sell a lot of ppvs. A lot more ppvs than I imagine GSP would have sold for the event based on how he promoted the fight. BJ did not appear to train for the fight with the same intensity as GSP. Does that mean he did his job better than GSP? Or just as well as him because he sold more PPV's but didn't train as hard?

Is Anderson Silva only doing half his job because he doesn't sell as many PPV's as Brock despite having a far better record in the UFC and being far ahead of him in anyone's P4P rankings?

It you guys are right and it is considered part of a fighters job to sell PPV's, i think it should at least be based on their performances (as in the excitement level of their fights, win or lose) rather than personality and their ability to engage with the crowd/public outside the ring. I mean, i couldn't care less about a fighter's personality, I just want to see the best fights possible on any given card.

Then sorry you clearly don’t understand the business model of UFC, WEC, PRIDE, Affliction etc. It isn’t a pure sport it is a promotional business regardless of what you think. Just look at this thread's title for crying out loud.

Fall_Guy

I understand that most promotions want to maximise buy-rates, but I think that it's possible to promote fights based on the competitor's in-ring ability.

To be honest, promoters only push brash loud-mouth competitors over equally or higher-skilled competitors because they think its what the fans want (and to be fair the PPV numbers probably back this belief up).

But I honestly believe that most fans would rather see a handful of quality fights every month than a few minutes worth of entertaining interviews. If i'm wrong then I think it just shows you that plenty of mma fans are more into the spectacle than the fights themselves.

I guess what i'm trying to say is, isn't it possible that I understand "the business model of UFC....." without agreeing with it? :rolleyes:

rovert

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I understand that most promotions want to maximise buy-rates, but I think that it's possible to promote fights based on the competitor's in-ring ability.

In part not soley.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

To be honest, promoters only push brash loud-mouth competitors over equally or higher-skilled competitors because they think its what the fans want (and to be fair the PPV numbers probably back this belief up).

So it isnt a case of "they think" then? UFC are obviously giving the people what they want nee demand.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

But I honestly believe that most fans would rather see a handful of quality fights every month than a few minutes worth of entertaining interviews.

Who said they didnt? You are talking like UFC doesnt have great fights.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

If i'm wrong then I think it just shows you that plenty of mma fans are more into the spectacle than the fights themselves.

No they just prefer to be emotionally involved in great fights, rather watching faceless great fights. An invested crowd generally speaking improves fight quality IMO.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I guess what i'm trying to say is, isn't it possible that I understand "the business model of UFC....." without agreeing with it? :rolleyes:

On what grounds do you disagree with it? It would be ridiclous to question UFC's business model in my opinion due how successful it has been even in this year alone.

Your original point was:

It is the fighter's job to fight. It is the promoter's job to promote.

This clearly isnt the case for fighters who get paid on a percentage of PPV revenue. A fighters job IS to generate interest there.

Fozzy

It's not a matter of people liking good interviews, it's that a good interview will get you more connected with the fighter, more invested in the fight, and thus you'll enjoy the fight more

It doesn't have to be a "loud mouth" who gets people interested in them. Lyoto Machida increased his profile more with his last post-fight interview than with any of his previous wins. A guy like Randy Couture gets so much support because people feel like they have that connection with him from seeing him outside the cage. If he never gave an interview in his life there wouldn't be nearly as much interest in him

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

It's not a matter of people liking good interviews, it's that a good interview will get you more connected with the fighter, more invested in the fight, and thus you'll enjoy the fight more

It doesn't have to be a "loud mouth" who gets people interested in them. Lyoto Machida increased his profile more with his last post-fight interview than with any of his previous wins. A guy like Randy Couture gets so much support because people feel like they have that connection with him from seeing him outside the cage. If he never gave an interview in his life there wouldn't be nearly as much interest in him

Really good point Fozzy UFC's promotion of fighters is far more sophisticated than pushing loud mouths. This part of the reason why Id heavily disagree with anyone disagreeing with UFC’s business model as it is a proven one for creating and maintaining stars which is key for a sustained level of business.

Fall_Guy

I don't disagree with their promotion from a business standpoint but from a sporting standpoint, i think they are entitled to do whatever the hell they want to try and sell ppv's and they are clearly pretty good, i just don't think it should be considered part of a fighter's job to have to have a personality.

I disagree with it because I like sport for what it is. I enjoy the dynamic action, the huge amount of variables that make most fights hard to call. I enjoy the action bell to bell for what it is without having a real emotional attachment to any fighters. Often times my favourite fights are undercard fights involving fighters I've only heard of or read about.

Regarding the percentage of PPV revenue, that just means it is in a fighters best interests to do what he can to hype a fight in order to line his pockets but it is not his job to do so. It is his job to train as hard and as smart as he can and to perform to the best of his ability on the night. To a certain extent I would say that it is his job to put on an exciting fight (who wants to watch 15/25 minutes of lay and pray) but even this isn't a fighters primary job. There job is to win.

Brock sells more PPVS than Fedor. If Fedor was in the UFC this would probably continue. I don't think that means he is doing his job any better than Fedor.

I think my point comes down to the fact that I'm drawn to the sport aspect of MMA and am slightly turned off by the "entertainment" focus. I find the fights entertaining for what they are. I suppose it would make more sense to say "it SHOULD be the fighters job to fight. it SHOULD be the promoters job to promote". I have the same belief about boxing.

Maybe its a ridiculous view or too purist or whatever, but I think quality fights generate their own interest. For example, I don't care about Miguel Cotto on a personal level. Same for Antonio Margarito. But I couldn't wait for their fight a few months ago because they are tremendous performers and the fight had great potential.

Not to sound like an old man, but I don't need all that circus stuff, just top fighters putting on great in-ring performances, please!

Fozzy

I understand where you're coming from, and I'm the same to a degree sometimes, but the fact is that you're a rare breed and not enough to sustain a business. Your ideal promotion would not have enough money to give jobs to the best fighters

Nothingcompares

I think the great thing about MMA is that it caters for appeals to both crowds. People that like to see 2 honest, hard working blokes do the talking in the ring and have a war and those that love the hype, build up, internet wars and smack talk. It even caters for people that like to see 400 lbs guys fight 200lbs guys and 7 foot guy fight 5 foot guys. Ken Shamrock and Bobby Wrestler is not a match putting the two most technical guys against each other or the two guys at the top of their game (ken is past his best, bobby's best is well in the future) but it will be entertaining to see how a relative new comber takes on a seasoned pro. Also throws in a size and weight variable.

rovert

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I don't disagree with their promotion from a business standpoint but from a sporting standpoint, i think they are entitled to do whatever the hell they want to try and sell ppv's and they are clearly pretty good, i just don't think it should be considered part of a fighter's job to have to have a personality.

Sorry but it is, they need to be able fight in the first place for sure but they need to project personality as well.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I disagree with it because I like sport for what it is. I enjoy the dynamic action, the huge amount of variables that make most fights hard to call. I enjoy the action bell to bell for what it is without having a real emotional attachment to any fighters. Often times my favourite fights are undercard fights involving fighters I've only heard of or read about.

I’m not putting words into your mouth and I know you never said it but UFC cant market to one person or a relatively small group of hardcores. Those who have went out of business.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Regarding the percentage of PPV revenue, that just means it is in a fighters best interests to do what he can to hype a fight in order to line his pockets but it is not his job to do so.

So you are saying that something which they are incentivised to do isn’t part of their job. Okay???

Fall_Guy wrote: »

It is his job to train as hard and as smart as he can and to perform to the best of his ability on the night. To a certain extent I would say that it is his job to put on an exciting fight (who wants to watch 15/25 minutes of lay and pray) but even this isn't a fighters primary job. There job is to win.

Their job isn’t strictly to win; putting on entertaining fights enters the equation too. As they are incentivised both by bonuses and placement on the card (either being put on PPV or in a dark match) to put on entertaining fights.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Brock sells more PPVS than Fedor. If Fedor was in the UFC this would probably continue. I don't think that means he is doing his job any better than Fedor.

I don’t think that would continue as UFC's profile features Countdown and All Access are extremely effective at increasing interest and creating stars.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I think my point comes down to the fact that I'm drawn to the sport aspect of MMA and am slightly turned off by the "entertainment" focus. I find the fights entertaining for what they are. I suppose it would make more sense to say "it SHOULD be the fighters job to fight. it SHOULD be the promoters job to promote". I have the same belief about boxing.

Again you are projecting your own preferences on other peoples. People clearly DO something different from your own personal tastes. As boxing I’m sure you are aware of the impact of the 24/7 Hype Specials had on the level of interest in boxing fights. People do want to be personally invested in fighters and stories regardless of your personal preferences.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Maybe its a ridiculous view or too purist or whatever, but I think quality fights generate their own interest.

That level of interest often isn’t profitable.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Not to sound like an old man, but I don't need all that circus stuff, just top fighters putting on great in-ring performances, please!

I’m sorry but you can’t play the old man card with MMA if you think you can then I question your knowledge of the history of it. As it was never the sport you are describing. PRIDE and early UFC werent presented as this pure sport that you seem to think you watched as a young un.

chopperbyrne

The after match antics last night kind of prove my point.

Fall_Guy

I think I've already conceded that what you are saying is the case rovert, but i just don't think that SHOULD be the way. The "old man" thing wasn't some sort of claim that "things were different in my day" but was merely a throwaway comment based on how those that argue that boxing is getting too commercialised are often looked at as old-timers who time has passed by. Pretty inaccurate as there are plenty of young people who are purned away by the hype (and also, there has been hype and self-promotion in boxing for long time anywho). As far as the sport itself goes, I much prefer the action seen now than that on show in early MMA events pitting style versus style and what not.

I like the 24/7 shows alot, I like the UFC build-up shows too. But to be honest I like them for the insight into training and the way you get to see how a fight comes to totally dominate the competirors life in the weeks leading up to it. Whether a fighter goes out of his way to hype the fight up or not wouldn't really come into it for me.

So to re-iterate (and probably back-track), I think that it SHOULDN'T be a fighters job to promote fights. I do not think athletic competition should be so strongly focused on making money, and well, seeing as the promoters still do take a disproportionately large amount of the profits, I think it should be their job to promote the fights and leave the fighters to concentrate on being able to compete at the highest level possible.

rovert

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I think I've already conceded that what you are saying is the case rovert, but i just don't think that SHOULD be the way. The "old man" thing wasn't some sort of claim that "things were different in my day" but was merely a throwaway comment based on how those that argue that boxing is getting too commercialised are often looked at as old-timers who time has passed by. Pretty inaccurate as there are plenty of young people who are purned away by the hype (and also, there has been hype and self-promotion in boxing for long time anywho). As far as the sport itself goes, I much prefer the action seen now than that on show in early MMA events pitting style versus style and what not.

I like the 24/7 shows alot, I like the UFC build-up shows too. But to be honest I like them for the insight into training and the way you get to see how a fight comes to totally dominate the competirors life in the weeks leading up to it. Whether a fighter goes out of his way to hype the fight up or not wouldn't really come into it for me.

So to re-iterate (and probably back-track), I think that it SHOULDN'T be a fighters job to promote fights. I do not think athletic competition should be so strongly focused on making money, and well, seeing as the promoters still do take a disproportionately large amount of the profits, I think it should be their job to promote the fights and leave the fighters to concentrate on being able to compete at the highest level possible.

That’s fair enough compared to you what you said in your first post but I don’t think current personality based methods of promotions detract from UFC/MMA's legitimacy as a "proper" sport. I think it augments it adding more drama, interest and crowd response to fights and fighters. Most fighters jump to the chance of promoting themselves and their fights promotion isn’t something that most are corralled to do.

If you want to talk about fighters pay self promotion only helps in pay negotiations as fighters can use their profile and name value as leverage.

Dragan

Fall_Guy wrote: »

So to re-iterate (and probably back-track), I think that it SHOULDN'T be a fighters job to promote fights. I do not think athletic competition should be so strongly focused on making money, and well, seeing as the promoters still do take a disproportionately large amount of the profits, I think it should be their job to promote the fights and leave the fighters to concentrate on being able to compete at the highest level possible.

Personally i would maintain that it IS part of a fighters job to be promotable.

Just to throw a spanner in the works!:)

Fall_Guy

But what does promotable mean? I think Shane Carwin is very promotable from a promoters standpoint due to being huge, having a lot of power and having a habit of finishing people in double-quick time. The fact that he has now beaten a world title contender makes him even more promotable.

He doesnt make any attempt to hype his fights, and he's not what someone would consider "charismatic". He seems to be doing his job pretty damn well over the last 10-12 months though, in my opinion.

rovert

Fall_Guy wrote: »

But what does promotable mean? I think Shane Carwin is very promotable from a promoters standpoint due to being huge, having a lot of power and having a habit of finishing people in double-quick time. The fact that he has now beaten a world title contender makes him even more promotable.

He doesnt make any attempt to hype his fights, and he's not what someone would consider "charismatic". He seems to be doing his job pretty damn well over the last 10-12 months though, in my opinion.

There is an exception to every rule and not hyping fights makes him stand out.

Dragan

Fall_Guy wrote: »

But what does promotable mean? I think Shane Carwin is very promotable from a promoters standpoint due to being huge, having a lot of power and having a habit of finishing people in double-quick time. The fact that he has now beaten a world title contender makes him even more promotable.

He doesnt make any attempt to hype his fights, and he's not what someone would consider "charismatic". He seems to be doing his job pretty damn well over the last 10-12 months though, in my opinion.

Promotable means you can be put in the lime light and not blink, do a Q&A with some style and grace, be well spoken on the mic and in interviews, have a good grasp of the target audiences language etc etc.

It's not about hyping fights, that just a cheap way to do it, but effective. Basically look at Anderson Silva, the guy lays waste to people in the cage but his buy rates are relatively poor because he can't engage the crowd. Basically, he is a hard to promote champ unless you can play endless replays of his demolitions in the cage.

As for Carwin, he knows what to do and when, he made sure the crowd cheered for him after Gonzaga was put away.:)

Fall_Guy

Anderson Silva is a perfect example, Dragan. I happen to think think that as a fighter who most would place somewhere between one and three on their pound for pound rankings and a man who for the most part fights in a very entertaining manner to boot, he does his job very well indeed regardless of how his PPV numbers hold up against other fighters'. I guess it all comes down to opinion.

Fozzy

f4wonline.com says that Hasim Rahman, the boxer, and Don Frye have been contacted to replace Ken. Lashley has agreed to face either man, and Rahman is the promotion's first choice

I'd like to see Rahman get it, if only for the high probability of Lashley being able to get a quick takedown and win from there, which could provide us with some humour from certain boxing fans :pac:

Fall_Guy

Fozzy wrote: »

f4wonline.com says that Hasim Rahman, the boxer, and Don Frye have been contacted to replace Ken. Lashley has agreed to face either man, and Rahman is the promotion's first choice

I'd like to see Rahman get it, if only for the high probability of Lashley being able to get a quick takedown and win from there, which could provide us with some humour from certain boxing fans :pac:

Jesus, what a bad match-up that would be for Rahman. If they wanted to just get some easy money would they not be better off matching him up with as many strikers as they could in order to give him a chance of getting a few KO's under his belt?? This would be a silly move, bit like when Raymond Daniels was signed to a Strikeforce card to make his debut against a fighter with a wrestling background. Not the best way to protect a one-dimensional fighter. Then again, it's probably good enough for people coming into the sport with the mentality that they can KO their way to the top without developing a well-rounded skillset. Might be a wake-up call!

dunkamania

Back to the Anderson Silva comments. He is never going to be particularly effective at selling a show, but, the calibre of his opponents in his title defenses has meant that the outcome has rarely been in doubt.

Fall_Guy

That's a fair point. But that is the nature of being the top fighter in the division. And I also think hindsight makes the outcome of a fight seem more obvious.

For example, after the Lutter fight where Lutter mounted Silva and had him in a tricky position at the end of Round One many people thought that Marquardt might be able to have good success on the ground against Silva. Prior to the henderson fight people thought Henderson's super clinch game and knockout power meant he had a good skillset to beat Silva. The Irvin fight had the step-up in weight going for it to add a bit of intrigue. I'll give you the Cote fight, however.

But again, quality of opponents isn't Silva's problem. Its his job to win the fight, not to make the fight. I think he does a great job.

Fozzy

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Jesus, what a bad match-up that would be for Rahman. If they wanted to just get some easy money would they not be better off matching him up with as many strikers as they could in order to give him a chance of getting a few KO's under his belt?? This would be a silly move, bit like when Raymond Daniels was signed to a Strikeforce card to make his debut against a fighter with a wrestling background. Not the best way to protect a one-dimensional fighter. Then again, it's probably good enough for people coming into the sport with the mentality that they can KO their way to the top without developing a well-rounded skillset. Might be a wake-up call!

Rahman basically turned down the fight. His management "couldn't come to an agreement" according to f4wonline.com

I actually read the recent interview of his where he expressed his interest in doing MMA just after I made my last post. It's clear that he's not serious. He was going on about beating Fedor, and then a few questions later he admitted that he doesn't follow MMA. He was never going to take this fight

Don Frye is apparently still a go if he accepts it. Unless he's injured or has prior plans I think he'll jump in head first

Fozzy

The latest is that negotiations with Frye fell through and Lashley was sent a fight contract for a bout with Jason Guida

This will be a failure of a PPV

Lets hope Guida makes weight........................:pac:

Mr Alan

Deleted User wrote: »

Lets hope Guida makes weight........................:pac:

good one! :pac:

dunkamania

Is Lashley a LHW?

Fozzy

dunkamania wrote: »

Is Lashley a LHW?

He's about 250lbs I think, definately not a lightheavyweight. Guida fights in both weight classes though

Gerard.C

What time does Guida-Lashley start at?

amacachi

It's starting now.

amacachi

Oh God, they're bigging up Lashley's WWE record. :P