Time for airsoft lovers to take action!

Hivemind187

Rhinocharge wrote: »

Upgrading guns is a different issue, realistically we as a community must agree not to advertise, sell or purchase higher power springs. It's an easy concept, don't break the law. Those caught doing so should be reported to the authorities.

All well and good until you have a piece thats shooting 200 on a 100m/s spring and needs a little more welly - perfectly legally - to make up for degradation caused by other modifications.

Remember, the law says "muzzle energy" not whats generated by the spring, cylinder etc etc.

The Warehouse

Tigger wrote: »

i down grade aegs all the time for people and they are all bought in ireland from propper irish retailers

and i won't sign anything to stuff up anyone.

Then why bother trying to run a proper site/retail outlet when there are people out there that won't even stand up against the dodgy ones? Why don't we all just sell/rent hot guns or not bother chronoing if players could care less and we still get paid.

This is the whole point of this system, to give the power to the players so they can help govern their sport and keep it fun, fair, legal & safe!

Puding

restricting the type of springs for sale would never work for a number of reasons, a aegs joule output is determined by the combination of all its components,

i would want a 150 spring because im making a supper high rof aeg with a short stroke

where as i can also make a aeg with a 100 or 90 way of the limit by the using the right combination of parts

i feel its a quality control issue rather than anything sinister

how can it be quality control when we know whole lines of aegs are over the limit but still retailers import and do not downgrade, its cheaper to deal with the 1 out of 10 that people bring back than to downgrade them all at the start,

a quality control issue would be, ow look a TM p90 is shooting 340 stock,

Tigger

The Warehouse wrote: »

Then why bother trying to run a proper site/retail outlet when there are people out there that won't even stand up against the dodgy ones?

look i'm say it clearly without spelling mistakes
the issue is that once an aeg has been found to be over it should be undered
once this is done thats the end
but
if people are faking through the on site chronoing and swapping springs or guns or whatever thats wrong

i have never run a airsoft retail shop so i wouldn't presume to know whats entailed

and btw i have bought off only iaa affiliated and my friends have bought off only iaa affiliated retailers

Why don't we all just sell/rent hot guns or not bother chronoing if players could care less and we still get paid.

i donno but if you accidentally gave me a hot gun i sure as fuck wouldn't grass you up
i'd tell you and thats all

i do care but i'm willing to give the benifit of the doubt

This is the whole point of this system, to give the power to the players so they can help govern their sport and keep it fun, fair, legal & safe!

and i agree with that but not with prosecution

Tigger

Puding wrote: »

restricting the type of springs for sale would never work for a number of reasons, a aegs joule output is determined by the combination of all its components,

i would want a 150 spring because im making a supper high rof aeg with a short stroke

where as i can also make a aeg with a 100 or 90 way of the limit by the using the right combination of parts



how can it be quality control when we know whole lines of aegs are over the limit but still retailers import and do not downgrade, its cheaper to deal with the 1 out of 10 that people bring back than to downgrade them all at the start,

a quality control issue would be, ow look a TM p90 is shooting 340 stock,

naw tm p90's shoot 285 stock they need up grading to make them nice


but chinese gear is a little more varied

Beast ASI

Tigger wrote: »

naw tm p90's shoot 285 stock they need up grading to make them nice


but chinese gear is a little more varied

"Nice" ??? - You ever used one?

Probably the third best hop system you can get - They shoot perfectly fine at stock.

I think Pudding knows that they shoot that as well, he was making the example of bad QC by TM, as it would be firing at 340.

Tigger

Beast ASI wrote: »

"Nice" ??? - You ever used one?

Probably the third best hop system you can get - They shoot perfectly fine at stock.

yup i have one thanks very much
the hop is funny the distance it gets is brilliant

but mine shoots at 315-320 hop off with a 90ms and that gives less flight time
also mine bedded doen to around 260 and i felt inadequate

Puding

naw tm p90's shoot 285 stock they need up grading to make them nice

you completely missed the point, beast kindly pointed out what you should have got, i was giving an example of bad QC, an A&K m249 shooting 400fps stock is not bad QC

also mine bedded doen to around 260 and i felt inadequate

and we have the problem, most people see 1j as a target , we have been trying hard in cork to re educate people and have a mind set change

Tigger

Beast ASI wrote: »

"Nice" ??? - You ever used one?

Probably the third best hop system you can get - They shoot perfectly fine at stock.

I think Pudding knows that they shoot that as well, he was making the example of bad QC by TM, as it would be firing at 340.

i know exactly what he was saying

tm have good qc tho

its the chinese that have poor qc

look all i'm saying is i'm never gonna get some one in trouble for what i assume is a mistake

if someone knows something i don't then....

Puding

its the chinese that have poor qc

most clones are shot hot if left stock, that is not a QC issue that is what there aiming for, there not designed for the 1j market

The Warehouse

Tigger wrote: »

i donno but if you accidentally gave me a hot gun i sure as fuck wouldn't grass you up
i'd tell you and thats all

i do care but i'm willing to give the benifit of the doubt

And what if this retailer persists with the selling of hot guns or the site continues to look the other way in terms of chronoing, do you still give the benifit of the doubt or do you take action. Cause if you care as you say you do you wouldn't want someone risking the good name of the sport (not to mention the legality of it)!

And relax now, your reply was a bit hot-headed, we are all just discussing the options left to us.

Tigger

Puding wrote: »

most clones are shot hot if left stock, that is not a QC issue that is what there aiming for, there not designed for the 1j market

i agree

Tigger

The Warehouse wrote: »

And what if this retailer persists with the selling of hot guns or the site continues to look the other way in terms of chronoing, do you still give the benifit of the doubt or do you take action. Cause if you care as you say you do you wouldn't want someone risking the good name of the sport (not to mention the legality of it)!

And relax now, your reply was a bit hot-headed, we are all just discussing the options left to us.

the first aeg we got hot from one particular retailer was sep 07 the most recent arrived last week

i'm pretty sure that everybody who knows much will know who i mean

but i'm just being honest i wouldn;'tv feel comfy with informing on someone
the only person who i ever reported to the cops had attacked me with a knife

Stercus Accidit

"informed"

rofl, its not the IRA, its tossers risking our sport, inform away, or you're part of the problem.

The Warehouse

Tigger wrote: »

the first aeg we got hot from one particular retailer was sep 07 the most recent arrived last week

i'm pretty sure that everybody who knows much will know who i mean

but i'm just being honest i wouldn;'tv feel comfy with informing on someone
the only person who i ever reported to the cops had attacked me with a knife

I understand your reluctance but its gotten to the point now that if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem!

Jay TLR

The Warehouse wrote: »

I understand your reluctance but its gotten to the point now that if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem!

That's a bit much Kiwi. Basically we're either with you or against the sport of airsoft? So anyone who doesn't agree with your opinions is as bad as a cheater. WTF?

I know this isn't how you mean it but that's how you're coming across. Also, how has it suddenly 'gotten to the point now'? Because you felt hard done by at the Take Aim competition? I'm all for removing cheaters from the game but I don't think things are any different today, than they were last week or the week before.

I'm not attacking you Kiwi, you're a good guy and an honest player. However, this crusade is dragging the Take Aim competition into disrepute. No other team that played that day has made as much of a fuss about having to deal with the same stuff as your team. It was a great day, 95% honest, which is a much higher ratio than on most sites on any day.

I'm all for whatever action the community as a whole decides to take to deal with this issue.

-PornStar-

I don't think this thread was aimed at the Take Aim competition specifically. I never got that impression and I have read the entire thing.

Nemesis G.O.A

On the whole power thing,even non power up mods can make a huge difference,I had silicon hops put in 2 of my guns,left the shop,went to play,and at the chrono found both had jumped by 120fps to way over the legal limit!Needless to say they were never played in this state,and taken back for a down grade.

As for the cheating,I saw with my own eyes players not taking hits at the AIM cup(not while I was playing),and marshals pulling the players for the same.But I also saw something else,a player shouting and swearing about a player not taking his hits,and being told by his own team mate his shots were falling short and not even close to the player in question.Sometimes,especially in failing light like in the last 2 cup games,and at long range,we simply can't see where our shots are really landing,so may not be hitting the player we accuse of cheating,just a thought.

Also,it wouldn't be such a drama for guns to be chrono'd once for the players/sites peace of mind at the begining of a comp',tagged,and then at the start of each game,10 guys in a line,10-15 secs each,it's not long,and if your guns hot on the field,your teams down a player for the game/day.

Hande hoche!

Yep that's one thing I find disheartning is players shouting at players for supposedly not taking their hits. They curse and complain rather than talking to the player or a marshall. Thankfully this is a rare occurence rather than a common problem on the days I have played. G-tac had a good system at the Gathering of having guns chrono'd and the a small tag placed on your aeg and if the tag fell off it had to be chrono'd again.

tonky

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Yep that's one thing I find disheartening is players shouting at players for supposedly not taking their hits. They curse and complain rather than talking to the player or a marshal. Thankfully this is a rare occurrence rather than a common problem on the days I have played. G-tac had a good system at the Gathering of having guns chrono'd and the a small tag placed on your aeg and if the tag fell off it had to be chrono'd again.

Agreed, Some dudes seem to think the guns are real, the way they carry on.
Airsoft is not about maximum range or firepower really.
I see it as an opportunity to escape day-to-day crap, to dress up in costume, to play at soldiers without the risk of death, to meet new people and make friends regardless of age, religion or nationality. Hopefully the win-at-all costs and failed Rambo merchants will cop on and reform or disappear.

AirsoftEire.com

This blacklisting is a great idea. However you also have to consider that a lot of site owners wouldn't blacklist a loyal team player as quickly as someone who just showed up for the day. Not because of sinister reasons, but because they're friendly with them and it would be like blacklisting your mate in a lot of cases. Who will actually do the blacklisting?

Steve

Gatling

there one of the points i raised earlier there way to much trust being allowed on sites ,

hot guns is a weekly occurance and its not just one reatiler there coming from ok some are saying its qc from china ,when really we should be looking closer to home ,

some people see 328 as the magic number when it comes to aegs whats actuly wrong with 300, its like small penis syndrome at times oh mine shoots 15 fps more than yours there fore im superior to you,
i seem to remember at the the first Gathering people being found with hot guns at the chrono ,arguments break outs and the wheather get blamed on the guns being hot guns and the same guns are allowed the following morning chroning when the tempature had dropped some thing to do with mositure in the air ,one for dex or kd or puding to explain properly,so if somebody is using an aeg that shoots 328fps on a warm day this gun is then hot anybody confirm if im right so a gun checked in the morning when its cold gets an fps increase as the day warms ups

whos does the blacklisting and who gets to see the list ,and how will it work will somebody called a cheat by an individual and indepenent witnessed or will we see grudges being used to get somebody banned teams and groups going against another,

il throw someting out in the open we all are mates with site owners ,one thing that hasnt being mentioned is people turning up to site and playing full days gaming and yet dont sign in or PAY yes PAY some even sign in as marshals to get free games yet when asked to marshal a game they tell you oh im playing today,

id like to see a league table of sites where we can all post comments,

ie marshaling
cheating and action or in cases not taken
and if hot guns are being used on sites and what or any action by the sites,

andy_g

Gatling wrote: »

some people see 328 as the magic number when it comes to aegs whats actuly wrong with 300, its like small penis syndrome at times oh mine shoots 15 fps more than yours there fore im superior to you,
i seem to remember at the the first Gathering people being found with hot guns at the chrono ,arguments break outs and wheather get blamed on the guns being hot guns and the same guns are allowed the following morning chroning when the tempature had dropped some thing to do with mositure in the air ,one for dex or kd or puding to explain properly,so if somebody is using an aeg that shoots 328fps on a warm day this gun is then hot anybody confirm if im right so a gun checked in the morning when its cold gets an fps increase as the day warms ups
,

yeah its simple physics warm day=thinner air there for a body of matter can move fast through a thinner liquid/solid of force.

cold day = thicker air an object will move more slowly through a thicker liquid/solid


i can place up the formulas and all that jazz if people have a head for the maths element of it

kevteljeur

andy_g wrote: »

yeah its simple physics warm day=thinner air there for a body of matter can move fast through a thinner liquid/solid of force.

cold day = thicker air an object will move more slowly through a thicker liquid/solid

i can place up the formulas and all that jazz if people have a head for the maths element of it

I was one of those people. It actually amounted to a 5% variation. Not much, but enough to put an AEG over, and so I borrowed someone else's AEG. The next morning the same AEG which was 'hot' the night before (and that was by 6 fps with .2g bbs) came in at 300 fps. These were still small amounts, and not amounting to a whole hill of beans. Personally, I think these small amounts, while legally binding, aren't what people are excited about here.

It is people knowingly, willfully and persistently using equipment which is far over the limit for competitive advantage which is bad on many levels. Although I was concerned about the effect described above at the time since I'd driven halfway across the country to play and couldn't (Damn, I was well pissed-off that night), the Maxforces were right to call it. It's been used since then at that site and others as a justification for AEGs which are far, far over the limit and I'm hoping that people are understanding the difference between a little bit of pragmatic flexibility and letting people with cannons onto the playing field.

Puding

the small up and down is easy solved by people getting there head round that 1j is nit a target set an aeg up to shot at 310 -315fps with .20g and your covered for all 'ups and downs'

is trying to get 400fps bolt action into a game knowingly is the other end of ths scale

also would be interesting to see how many places confirm if hop up are off during testing, had a guy very upset he could not play as his aeg was 5fps over when he put it throw the chrono, i had a look turned out the aeg had its hop up fully on, when i turned it on the aeg came in close to 380 - 390 i do not blame the guy i just blame the misinformation he was given that made him believe this was a valid method of 'downgrading'

seen people do some very strange things thought to try and get an aeg past the chrono....

Hivemind187

Puding wrote: »

the small up and down is easy solved by people getting there head round that 1j is nit a target set an aeg up to shot at 310 -315fps with .20g and your covered for all 'ups and downs'

is trying to get 400fps bolt action into a game knowingly is the other end of ths scale

also would be interesting to see how many places confirm if hop up are off during testing, had a guy very upset he could not play as his aeg was 5fps over when he put it throw the chrono, i had a look turned out the aeg had its hop up fully on, when i turned it on the aeg came in close to 380 - 390 i do not blame the guy i just blame the misinformation he was given that made him believe this was a valid method of 'downgrading'

seen people do some very strange things thought to try and get an aeg past the chrono....

I check every hop-up on every gun at the chrono personally. I'm pretty certain PK, Neil and Andy do as well when they are chronoing It takes a few extra seconds but its well worth it for the 20-40 fps its can knock off.

Masada

andy_g wrote: »

yeah its simple physics warm day=thinner air there for a body of matter can move fast through a thinner liquid/solid of force.

cold day = thicker air an object will move more slowly through a thicker liquid/solid


i can place up the formulas and all that jazz if people have a head for the maths element of it

Its not actually that simple.
Although cold air is more dense than warm air, and this means a projectile can pass through it easier, it also means the volume of air behind the BB is lower since the cylinder is dumping out warm air as aposed to cold "thick" air.
There is also the spring to take into consideration in the warm/cold debate. metal becomes softer with heat and is therefore more likely to compress with less force. a cold spring is harder than a warm one and will not compress quite as easily.


Mind you, I dont think all that has anything to do with this thread, theres no question about the conditions in GTAC at the gathering, lots of people turned up and couldn't play, myself included. I then had to chop my spring. None of these people were maliciously trying to defeat the chrono and sneak in under the radar,.
This thread is about those out there who are knowingly upgrading their guns and trying to sneak them into sites to cheat, and yes, they are cheating, they are gaining an unfair advantage from their illegal equipment.

It might also be noted that there has been no confirmation on weather the heat/light/humidity etc effected the power of the guns or if it was just the chono's ability to measure accurately. it was a very sunny day that day and just by rotating the chono away from the run i took off 10ish FPS on one of my guns.

defenderdude

In addition - unless the person testing provides a .2g bb in a mag - it's an utterly pointless exercise... as we all know - many use heavier bb's for better flight stability and accuracy, but many also use them to cheat chrono's...

Puding

In addition - unless the person testing provides a .2g bb in a mag - it's an utterly pointless exercise... as we all know - many use heavier bb's for better flight stability and accuracy, but many also use them to cheat chrono's...

we provide are own mags or simply a speed loader filled yourselves with .20g for testing , not hard, and cuts out all that silly business

Tigger

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

"informed"

rofl, its not the IRA, its tossers risking our sport, inform away, or you're part of the problem.

i am not part of any problem

i'm not the airsoft police

Dread-Lock

Tigger wrote: »

i am not part of any problem

i'm not the airsoft police

Well the way I see it is your against cheaters, but your not willing to do anything to stop them...

I think its a bit far to say your part of the problem or that your as bad as them, but you sure aren't helping things.

(I'm not trying to make enemies here, just trying to clear what others have said and to add my 2c).

Tigger

Dread-Lock wrote: »

Well the way I see it is your against cheaters, but your not willing to do anything to stop them...

I think its a bit far to say your part of the problem or that your as bad as them, but you sure aren't helping things.

(I'm not trying to make enemies here, just trying to clear what others have said and to add my 2c).

what have you done to lessen the number of hot aegs in ireland
how many sprimngs have you swapped foc
how many aegs have you chronoed so people can get thier stuff down graded before they spend two hours driving to a site

i am willing to bet i have done much more than you in my own way

Dread-Lock

Tigger wrote: »

what have you done to lessen the number of hot aegs in ireland
how many sprimngs have you swapped foc
how many aegs have you chronoed so people can get thier stuff down graded before they spend two hours driving to a site

i am willing to bet i have done much more than you in my own way

Alright then as you just want to be some hot headed person jumping on everyone who makes a comment I'm just going to ignore you from now on.

I have changed 1 spring if you must know, I have no idea how many guns I have chrono'd (for myself or others). And I have made sure people didn't use hot guns, at the Drogheda re-launch two guys were going to use hot AEG's until I told them to cop themselves on.

And TBH if your willing to drive 2 hours before checking or knowing your guns are grand then it's your own fault. And if they were over just get a rental or ask some could you use there backup.
(Last Saturday I was more then happy to let others use my guns and most others are the same).

And what exactly "in your own way" have you done? As to me your all talk.
You say you don't like cheaters.....but your not willing to help stop them.
You say you've done a lot for to stop hot guns.........

Edit: And yes I realize you might not be near a shop/site to get it chrono'd but thats the risk you take.

Tigger

Dread-Lock wrote: »

Alright then as you just want to be some hot headed person jumping on everyone who makes a comment.

i'm not hot headed i annoyed that because i don't report people i'm part of the problem#

did you report the two guys at the drogheda re-launch

Dread-Lock

Tigger wrote: »

i'm not hot headed i annoyed that because i don't report people i'm part of the problem#

did you report the two guys at the drogheda re-launch

As I said in my first post, I wasn't saying your part of the problem. I said I think it's a bit much to say your part of the problem. I was on your side...

And no I didn't report them...because they weren't using hot AEG's. What would I say? "Hey Mark those two guys over there aren't using hot guns....." :eek:

One guy had just bought the gun and it was shooting 377fps. His friend tried to convince him until I told him not to. And he went and got a rental.
And I don't know much about the other guy, it was shooting a little over so he was thinking of using it but then I said it would be best not to and so he used his backup instead.

If they had of tried to use them of course I would have reported them.

Tigger

Dread-Lock wrote: »

As I said in my first post, I wasn't saying your part of the problem. I said I think it's a bit much to say your part of the problem. I was on your side...

And no I didn't report them...because they weren't using hot AEG's. What would I say? "Hey Mark those two guys over there aren't using hot guns....." :eek:

One guy had just bought the gun and it was shooting 377fps. His friend tried to convince him until I told him not to. And he went and got a rental.
And I don't know much about the other guy, it was shooting a little over so he was thinking of using it but then I said it would be best not to and so he used his backup instead.

If they had of tried to use them of course I would have reported them.

but its illegal to own them

of course i stop peeps playing with hot stuff but i dont report them for iowning it or the people who supplied or upgraded it

Dread-Lock

Tigger wrote: »

but its illegal to own them

of course i stop peeps playing with hot stuff but i dont report them for iowning it or the people who supplied or upgraded it

Whats your point? You have already said you own two illegal guns....

I used to have an overpowered UMP, (I'm still having a few problems with the new spring but thats in another thread) I never once tried to the thing on a site. I have brought it to a site.....to get it chrono'd. As soon as it shoot over it went back in my gear bag and I pulled out my backup.

And I would never report someone for owning it either. I give people the benefit of the doubt that it was bought legally and it wasn't upgraded over the limit on purpose.

But I'm not going to give people the benefit of the doubt if they're trying to sneak guns past the chrono.....
Or if shops are willing suppling guns that are over, or what I think is worse actually upgrading them so they are over.....
These people are doing nothing but endangering the sport. And I will do all I can to stop them.

(F.L.) Anders

Stop with the Tigger bashing lads, as far as I can see he is on the same side as the rest of us who just wanna play airsoft legally.Dread you pretty much agreed entirely with his view in your last post so drop it eh?

Shiva

Agreed....the issue is not about mistakenly thinking you haven't been hit, or mistakenly getting a hot AEG. Hell, I've posted publicly in the past to say I've had guns slip out when they shouldnt - but we damn well make sure we get them back and sort the problem out.

The big problems are that there are people out there deliberately upgrading guns, deliberately trying to sneak them past chronos, deliberately not taking hits, and deliberately choosing to break the law or cheat fellow players. Those are the problems that need to be sorted, and bickering amongst ourselves won't solve anything.

Dread-Lock

(F.L.) Anders wrote: »

Stop with the Tigger bashing lads, as far as I can see he is on the same side as the rest of us who just wanna play airsoft legally.Dread you pretty much agreed entirely with his view in your last post so drop it eh?

I was agreeing with Tigger in my first post...I was saying it was a little unfair that people were saying he was just as bad as hot gun users for not reporting them.
I think Tigger misunderstood what I had said. That is all.
I never once tried to "bash" anyone. I said in my first post I wasn't trying to make enemies.

Tigger

Dread-Lock wrote: »

Whats your point? You have already said you own two illegal guns....

.

no i said i brought two to a site was refused then dar told me how to fox one and rob gave me a spring and 10 mnins later it was fixed the oter one i made a hole in the buckling and then replaced the buckling and spring the next week

(F.L.) Anders

...not trying to make enemies either. I appreciate what your sentiments were. The bashing part wasn't direct soely at you.
Also I don't want to stray too far off topic, I don't post too often here but I lurk like hell. As I see it everyone posting on this thread is on the same side and want the same benefical outcomes so maybe we sould leave our egos and petty squabbles at the door and look at the bigger picture.
End of!

Tigger

Dread-Lock wrote: »

Well the way I see it is your against cheaters, but your not willing to do anything to stop them...

I think its a bit far to say your part of the problem or that your as bad as them, but you sure aren't helping things.

(I'm not trying to make enemies here, just trying to clear what others have said and to add my 2c).

the bits that annoyed me were "not willing to do anything to stop them..."

"but you sure aren't helping things"

and
"just trying to clear what others have said"


where others said that i was part of the problem

Tigger

(F.L.) Anders wrote: »

...not trying to make enemies either. I appreciate what your sentiments were. The bashing part wasn't direct soely at you.
Also I don't want to stray too far off topic, I don't post too often here but I lurk like hell. As I see it everyone posting on this thread is on the same side and want the same benefical outcomes so maybe we sould leave our egos and petty squabbles at the door and look at the bigger picture.
End of!

my entire pouint is that i'm willing able and activally helping to make cheating but design and playing with hiot stuff by accident dissapear

but i am not willing to report anyone to any one

i should be allowed maintain that position

Nemesis G.O.A

Shiva wrote: »

Agreed....the issue is not about mistakenly thinking you haven't been hit, or mistakenly getting a hot AEG. Hell, I've posted publicly in the past to say I've had guns slip out when they shouldnt - but we damn well make sure we get them back and sort the problem out.

The big problems are that there are people out there deliberately upgrading guns, deliberately trying to sneak them past chronos, deliberately not taking hits, and deliberately choosing to break the law or cheat fellow players. Those are the problems that need to be sorted, and bickering amongst ourselves won't solve anything.

Thankyou Shiva for hopefully putting a stop to all the to and frowing and I hope getting the thread back on track.We're here,I hope,to find solutions and engage in constructive conversation about the issues in question,not not pick at each other.

Tigger

Nemesis G.O.A wrote: »

Thankyou Shiva for hopefully putting a stop to all the to and frowing and I hope getting the thread back on track.We're here,I hope,to find solutions and engage in constructive conversation about the issues in question,not not pick at each other.

i agree

Dread-Lock

This will be the last post towards you Tigger. As I'm only trying to clear misunderstandings up. (Otherwise I would have stopped awhile ago).

Tigger wrote: »

"just trying to clear what others have said"


where others said that i was part of the problem

Yeah I was clearing up what others have said as in "I don't think its fair to be calling Tigger a problem". I'm sorry I think I might have worded that badly; But you of all people can blame me for bad wording .

Tigger wrote: »

the bits that annoyed me were "not willing to do anything to stop them..."

"but you sure aren't helping things"

But you openly said that you wouldn't do anything...A couple of times.

If you want me to clear anything else up you can PM me. As far as I can see this is cleared up.

Tigger

Dread-Lock wrote: »

bad wording .

tiggers are excellent worders

Tigger

so whats to be done

as i see it people are cheating now there is annoying not take yer hits cheating and down right stupit cheating

i would be happy to report cheats to the iaa in its facilituy as player body if i could be assured that the person reported would not face any measure external to the iaa ie that the sanctions etc would be airsoft based

i would be happy to report sites and retailers to the commercial body iararrl or what ever they are called if i could be assured of same

warehouse sez that his proposed body would be prosecuting peeps

i cannot condone that over some toy guns

the underground movement exists and it tates inclusion not exclusion and understanding not straight buck passing to bring it out from the underground

irishlostboy

Tigger wrote: »

tiggers are excellent worders

cos tiggers are wonderful things. lol