Would you abolish all foreign aid?

KieranKennedy

70 percent of people who voted are in favour of some sort of cutback to foreign aid...Huzzah!

Aldebaran

KieranKennedy wrote: »

70 percent of people who voted are in favour of some sort of cutback to foreign aid...Huzzah!

So it's true what Bill Hicks once said about the human race: "We're a virus with shoes"

admiralofthefleet

i would until we got our affairs in order because i dont think we realise how close we are to bankruptcy

994

Stekelly wrote: »

Are our own peopel less important?

Would you sacrifice a family member to save 500 people you never met?

Ah, "our own peopel". Just as the British thought in the 1840s - better for Ireland to starve than Manchester or London to. Re. your second point, I wouldn't, but I would gladly kill 1 Irish person whom I had never met in order to save a dozen foreigners whom I had also never met.

Stekelly wrote: »

Would a billion extra in the budget not offset some of the imminent tax hikes?

When we had low taxes most people squandered their excess income on useless luxuries.

Stekelly wrote: »

Why wait that long?

I know its not flavour of the month anymore but are people lying (and dieing) on hospital trolleys not a good reason?

Just because people arent going to actually die is not a reason anyway to send money that is needed here abroad.

There are many for whom a hospital trolley is an impossible dream. Personally, given worldwide food shortages, I would double foreign aid. As EU members we have to send a fortune east anyway.

JohnGalt wrote: »

I for one certainly would. I owe them nothing and I should not be obligated to help them. My existence is mine alone to enjoy and I do not have to help anyone but myself

<SNIP> Maybe try a little compassion?

JohnGalt wrote: »

There is no reason to believe that would happen, but why would that matter, it means less european money wasted helping other countries, a better situation for europe

Yes, Aryans to the front of the queue, the rest can have our scraps...

Valmont

JohnGalt wrote: »

I for one certainly would. I owe them nothing and I should not be obligated to help them. My existence is mine alone to enjoy and I do not have to help anyone but myself

JohnGalt, I don't think the Ayn Rand values are going to convince anybody in here. I completely get your point though.

shezzie

in the current economic climate we simply cant afford it that 2million quid the government just pledged out could have along way here..the government cant say to us the people they are robbing after their screw up with millions we had from the old celtic tiger..that we cant afford this and that and then give out millions in aid ..i think when we can take care of our own country certainly they should assist other countries no problem...

daithi09

Yeah stop foreign aid, sure we have half of them over here claiming 204euro a week, free housing and anything else they want. Irelands a very small country and we give enough with letting so many foreigners into Ireland in the first place.
There is plenty of money in them countries, there governtment are just corrupt, throwing are money at them is just ridiculous.... Save it for us, We'l need it..

OPENROAD

994 wrote: »

When we had low taxes most people squandered their excess income on useless luxuries.

True but the govt got a fair chunk of the money back into the exchequer pity it appears they wasted it.

Rb

scorpioishere wrote: »

No we don't need that money here. So many people here in ireland are lazy ****ers who wants everything done for them. Instead they should be working and not be on the dole all their life and benefits every euros. People are well able to work here but they are too lazy and wants everything done for them. At least some people somewhere in the world are worth that money and at least they could get some food and water whereas you here are having your dinner in restaurant, having a pint, enjoying life to the maximum on the dole money.

What an incredibly well informed post.

The overwhelming majority of those on the dole at the moment, are on it because they cannot find employment, not because they aren't arsed working. When unemployment was at its all time low, yes, you could easily say that those who are fit to work and aren't are lazy scabs, but right now those on the dole who are actively seeking work deserve every cent they get.

And, they don't get a lot. If you have a family to support and you're on the dole, good luck to you as you'll find yourself in a very tight situation.

"Enjoying life to the maximum on the dole"; You go and try to live life to the maximum on e200 a week whilst paying rent, bills, fuel etc. You'll find it an awful lot harder than you appear to anyway.

I'm going to presume that you're a college student who's still living at home with mummy and daddy, right? Because I'm not seeing much real life experience from that post.

Finally, with regards to the "At least some people somewhere in the world are worth that money" comment, what are you basing the term "worth" on? Education, skills, ability to contribute to society? How about even knowing what the right thing to do is?

If not, then what? Why do skill-less, uneducated and to some extent, uncivilised people deserve money instead of a skilled, educated workforce who cannot find work?

They don't, sorry.

K-9

Stekelly wrote: »

Why wait that long?

I know its not flavour of the month anymore but are people lying (and dieing) on hospital trolleys not a good reason?

Just because people arent going to actually die is not a reason anyway to send money that is needed here abroad.

We've tried throwing billions at Health, it has made some difference as life expectancy is up, well into the 70's in Ireland. See what it is like in Ethiopa.

Dave! wrote: »

What if every country takes your approach? All the big dogs are suffering also, America, China, all of Europe. So everyone abolishes overseas aid.

Ah we'd moan about them selfish Americans etc. and say we need our money more.

Stekelly wrote: »

It would save the lives directly in the cases of lots of people who die here each your from poverty, being homeless etc. Cervical cancer vaccine?
Are our own peopel less important?

Obviously they aren't less important as we have decent Health and SW systems for them, not perfect, but decent.

Dave! wrote: »

As for the cervical cancer vaccine, you don't think there is any other way to source €10 million? I'll tell you what, cut €44 k from the salary of each TD and senator, and there you have it, 10 million more or less.

Actually I could raise with one simple decision, don't waste it on new offices for our oh so worth it Financial Regulator.

http://www.tribune.ie/

Nodin wrote: »

I think we should abolish domestic aid to those who don't need it. For instance, if you've a house in Gorey and another in D4, you don't need a half mill plus pay off at the irish tax payers expense, or a pension in six figures.

And Christ be with you too.

Ah, but they're Irish.

994 wrote: »

Ah, "our own peopel". Just as the British thought in the 1840s - better for Ireland to starve than Manchester or London to.

/Thread methinks.

Whosbetter?

Just been skimming through this thread.

Haven't noticed any mention of Kevin Meyer's fairly recent article on giving aid to Africa.

Can't rem the statistics or anything, but after reading his article, and hearing what he had to say on the matter afterwards, I was convinced.

Threre's NO WAY I'm knowingly giving a penny to any African country ever again.

It seems to create more problems than it solves...

Better to give to Irish charities for people living here.

CDfm

Mena wrote: »

Your hypocrisy, frankly, sickens me.

How exactly.

In case you didnt notice - as a country we are in a bad place financially.

We are not a rich country. In terms of GNP maybe but our main trading partners UK and USA own the businesses.

In terms of domestic ownership we own little.

I dunno but the cost of Aid is around 1% on the basic rate of tax - do you think that if in the morning you put that to the people in a referendum they would vote for it?

Beaucoupfish

Have you ever been to Africa? We have an obligation to share wealth across the world. Lets ignore the child who has no food or clean water or medication. These are basic human needs. We in Ireland are not poor, not by a long way. We are in recession and there are less 09 cars on the road but we are not dying of starvation because it hasn't rained. Have some compassion and get everything in perspective. You are very lucky you happened to be born in western society. I'm not religious and i can't justify corrupt African leaders but we must keep a certain amount of money to help the poorest of the poor and allow us and them to keep a sense of dignity.

Beaucoupfish

And whoever mentioned cervical cancer should get an education?
What will it be next week?

K-9

Look, some of the aid is wasted. Fair enough.

So is probably half our Govt. spending. The simple answer is to reform the system, not slash the money.

I'd say they will cut cut it again in the mini budget.

CDfm

Beaucoupfish wrote: »

Have you ever been to Africa? We have an obligation to share wealth across the world.

We in Ireland are not poor, not by a long way. We are in recession and there are less 09 cars on the road but we are not dying of starvation because it hasn't rained. .

Dont you get the economics. We will have to borrow money to be repaid from future taxation to pay this Aid.

So would the pensioners who lost their medical cards agree with the spending.

Its not coming from 09 Reg cars.

big b

Rather than expand on what I'm feeling right now, cos these posts ain't worth getting banned for, I'll settle for

coming from people whose country - and therefore their lives- has improved mainly through the help of others, some of these posts are just repulsive.

Whosbetter?

big b wrote: »

Rather than expand on what I'm feeling right now, cos these posts ain't worth getting banned for, I'll settle for

coming from people whose country - and therefore their lives- has improved mainly through the help of others, some of these posts are just repulsive.

True, Ireland, for one reason or another has been a bit of a basket case for most of it's recent history.

Thing is, is the Irish people haven't.

How much improvement have our people given to other countries, through emigration?

A lot, I'd say.

K-9

CDfm wrote: »

Dont you get the economics. We will have to borrow money to be repaid from future taxation to pay this Aid.

So would the pensioners who lost their medical cards agree with the spending.

Its not coming from 09 Reg cars.

We've had Foreign Aid for years, even pre Celtic Tiger and Property bubbles, so it isn't 100% correct what you say. Even at times when we didn't borrow we still had Foreign Aid.

K-9

Whosbetter? wrote: »

True, Ireland, for one reason or another has been a bit of a basket case for most of it's recent history.


How much improvement have our people given to other countries, through emigration?

A lot, I'd say.

To 3rd world countries? The vast majority was to get more money in the pocket, not help 3rd world countries.

Whosbetter?

K-9 wrote: »

To 3rd world countries?

Well, loads actually!

What about all those Priests/Nuns etc that went there?

CDfm

big b wrote: »

Rather than expand on what I'm feeling right now, cos these posts ain't worth getting banned for, I'll settle for

coming from people whose country - and therefore their lives- has improved mainly through the help of others, some of these posts are just repulsive.

ok -but where is the money to come from.

lots of people post and say ireland is wealthy and where is this disposable wealth

JUst say you have a foreign owned pharmaceutical company making viagra to sell. The profits are probably not taxed cost the cost of set up was high.The profits etc are foreign owned and we dont really tax them. We cant tax them cos it would mean the company would leave.

So GNP is a crude measurement of a country's wealth.In Irelands case its misleading.

Our contribution to Aid is from income tax revenue. Stamp duty and capital taxes have all been wiped out as revenue sources.

So how are you going to raise the money. Who will you tax. Or what are you prepared to give up.Student grants?

In Ireland -we dont actually as a nation equate government expenditure with taxes.

Mena

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Well, loads actually!

What about all those Priests/Nuns etc that went there?

Sex Tourism has nothing to do with foreign aid.


/I'll get my coat.

Rb

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Well, loads actually!

What about all those Priests/Nuns etc that went there?

Let us not forget all those leftie, bleeding hearted bohemians who travel over to build huts for people to live in.

Can't forget those guys and their contributions, sure that's why they went in the first place.

stovelid

I assuming all the posters that heartily favour aid for our own over aid for foreigners donate heavily and/or are involved in domestic charity and community work?

ardmacha

We will have to borrow money to be repaid from future taxation to pay this Aid.

If you went down to MAB and said you had increasing debts and were continuing to borrow huge amounts, and they looked at your expenditure and saw charity donations, might they not suggest that you stop these until you had got the borrowing under control?

CDfm

K-9 wrote: »

We've had Foreign Aid for years, even pre Celtic Tiger and Property bubbles, so it isn't 100% correct what you say. Even at times when we didn't borrow we still had Foreign Aid.

Have you asked them or has Bono asked them.

So a self appointed charity targets the government and tells a minister he will get bad publicity if he doesnt stump up.

Who has voted them in.

JUst because we did something incorrectly before doesnt justify compounding our error.

big b

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Well, loads actually!

What about all those Priests/Nuns etc that went there?

and how many of those priests & nuns are shouting for foreign aid to be stopped? :rolleyes:


cdfm - I'm fully aware that a lot of the money generated by businesses in Ireland doesn't stay here.

But to compare our situation as similar to that of countries who receive our help is frankly absurd.
I wouldn't argue against our aid package being more tailored to our current situation, but to stop it completely would be unwarranted, selfish & inhumane, imo.

Whosbetter?

I'm not saying all foreign aid should be stopped.

It's just Africa.

Now matter HOW many billions is thrown at it, it never improves!

K-9

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Well, loads actually!

What about all those Priests/Nuns etc that went there?

So, the Catholic Church then doing what they are supposed to do, not the economic emigrants you were talking about really.

CDfm wrote: »

So GNP is a crude measurement of a country's wealth.In Irelands case its misleading.

Agreed, fair point. I point this out when people say the public sector expenditure is small in international standards, so can't double standard here.

CDFM wrote:

Our contribution to Aid is from income tax revenue. Stamp duty and capital taxes have all been wiped out as revenue sources.

No, it is not. It's from total tax take as it always been, pre Property Bubble.

No point changing the rules that have been their for years to justify cutting 3rd World aid only.

Rb wrote: »

Let us not forget all those leftie, bleeding hearted bohemians who travel over to built huts for people to live in.

Can't forget those guys and their contributions, sure that's why they went in the first place.

Yep, many went to S. Africa to build huts, the same builders we moan about. Some of the huts were rented out, same everywhere, people take the piss, not just Ireland.

ardmacha wrote: »

If you went down to MAB and said you had increasing debts and were continuing to borrow huge amounts, and they looked at your expenditure and saw charity donations, might they not suggest that you stop these until you had got the borrowing under control?

They probably would, but would also look at other expenditure.

Whosbetter?

big b wrote: »

and how many of those priests & nuns are shouting for foreign aid to be stopped? :rolleyes:


I dunno. Do you?

K-9

CDfm wrote: »

Have you asked them or has Bono asked them.

You give Bono a lot of credit.

CDfm wrote:

So a self appointed charity targets the government and tells a minister he will get bad publicity if he doesnt stump up.

Bad publicity is part of the job. Appealing to populist, no pain for ourselves agendas isn't great either.

CDfm wrote:

Who has voted them in.

41.6% of the People. If people think democracy is about majorities, they are wrong.

CDfm wrote:

JUst because we did something incorrectly before doesnt justify compounding our error.

If the system was reformed, would you agree with aid?

PS. People who say Africa never changes, well seems we aren't that different really!

Whosbetter?

K-9 wrote: »

So, the Catholic Church then doing what they are supposed to do, not the economic emigrants you were talking about really.

I was talking about all Irish emigrants.

CDfm

K-9 wrote: »

Agreed, fair point. I point this out when people say the public sector expenditure is small in international standards, so can't double standard here.



No, it is not. It's from total tax take as it always been, pre Property Bubble.

I think we radically need to appraise and reform our government spending model.That includes aid.

Again my question is where is the money to come from -what domestic programme will you cut?

I just hate it when people use notional tax concepts rather than real money example.

Government expenditure increased during the boom -there is no surplus to pay the aid from.

muckwarrior

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa065.html
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4311
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/12/AR2006021201150.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/12/AR2006021201150.html etc. etc etc.

If some people are so desperate to give money to other countries then let them do it themselves via NGO's, but don't go wasting our countries finances on it.

gags89

how hypocritical are anyone who says we should abolish aid????awww im sorry you cant get a new car this year and there is a reduction in job availability but would you like to live off the land???

not know where your or your families next meal will come from??

not have your mobile phone or laptops to talk this type of ****e?Im actually shocked. People die every second thanks to developed countries greed...slave labour making our 'must have so i fit in' clothes, children down in deep mines looking for the diamonds on your new engagement ring as you sit down with the girls over coffee that a farmer is exploited for.

Just imagine while you sit there reading through this thread the amount of s*** we take for granted and now cant live without??? It was the developed worlds greed for money that has the world heading to disaster...we pollute oceans and kill off wildlife to make new roads.


I find it hilarious anyone who dares enjoy the money we got from the E.U to develop us from a 2nd world country now wants to shut up shop and say 'well weve had ours but im not giving the next in line some' We read about greedy bankers and the likes, if you think like this your an greedy hell bound **** just as long as you get your cushy salary and all of lifes little comforts. Go to any of these countries that recieve the aid and im sure you will hate it too. Imagine your children growing up in the slums like in that of slumdog millionaire or in a region where when your husband goes off to work in the morning only to bring back the bare minumum to keep you going.


Diseases they contract can be easily treated with drugs we develop but to protect profits instead of lives these companies will not supply them cheaply.



so before we all get protective of our precious economy where profits have taken a hit. It could be a hell of alot worse and its our duty as good human beings to help one another, not kick eachother when were down.

gags89

Whosbetter? wrote: »

I'm not saying all foreign aid should be stopped.

It's just Africa.

Now matter HOW many billions is thrown at it, it never improves!

the reason it doesnt improve is because of protectionism .MAKE TRADE FAIR and they can compete with the rest of the world. look up the embargoes and tariffs their goods get when imported to our countries.the interest ridden debt they owe us makes development of a country seem like a dream.

your an ignorant fool.

K-9

Whosbetter? wrote: »

I was talking about all Irish emigrants.

Ah, but spreading the word is part of their job! It isn't emigration, it's vocational. They aren't economic emigrants, you see my point?

CDfm wrote: »

I think we radically need to appraise and reform our government spending model.That includes aid.

Again my question is where is the money to come from -what domestic programme will you cut?

I just hate it when people use notional tax concepts rather than real money example.

Government expenditure increased during the boom -there is no surplus to pay the aid from.

Well instead of saying this money will pay for the cervical cancer programme, I linked to the €8 million wasted on a new office for the Financial Regulator in a Govt. funded failed Docklands project.

Quangos. 100 to be axed, only 4 yet.

Govt. PR agencies.

The western railway.

Do I have to go on?

I agree and always have that GNP is a fairer measure of Irelands expenditure than GDP.

I accept ALL expenditure rose during the boom. We have already cut Aid, the soft target. Time to look at the hard targets now.

Iang87

why does it have to be given by everyone when some dont want to. can we not just cancel it and if you still feel guilty with that extra money in your pocket then why not give it to homeless or people who need it in this country who dare i say are irish.

Could never understand it myself how everyone else will be looked after except our own. if anyone coulld enlighten me with an explanation then by all means please do

Rb

gags89 wrote: »

the reason it doesnt improve is because of protectionism .MAKE TRADE FAIR and they can compete with the rest of the world.

Compete with the rest of the world? Are you insane?

gags89 wrote: »

the interest ridden debt they owe us makes development of a country seem like a dream.

And who is to blame for that?

your an ignorant fool.

Oh the irony, how delicious.

gags89 wrote:

I find it hilarious anyone who dares enjoy the money we got from the E.U to develop us from a 2nd world country now wants to shut up shop and say 'well weve had ours but im not giving the next in line some'

Next in line? Are you seriously claiming that Africa, or even Gaza, are the "next in line" after '80s Ireland?

And you're claiming other posters to be ignorant?

What are you currently studying btw? '89 is a reference to your year of birth, I presume?

j1smithy

I had a very similar thread a little while back: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055461370

It went round and round in circles until it was locked. You will find some people will want to give no matter what because the situations in other countries are far worse than here and others think that there are far more worthy ways to spend the money here. A large majority wanted to see spending on foreign aid drastically cut, and I would expect there to be a similar result here.

Foreign aid is far more complicated though. Ireland has made commitments at UN level to meet the millennium development goals. This was the main point Ireland made when it seeked election to the UN security council in 2001-2002. To cut back on this would be quite embarrassing for the government in front of other nations. It would also damage Irelands image and influence abroad. Recently it has been trimmed by €90m which would still leave Ireland on target for its development goal as its a percentage of GDP (as GDP is currently in free fall). However, we now face a more serious problem than anticipated even in January, and I would expect the government to drastically reduce spending in this area, as this would be seen as a little or no-pain cut (rightly or wrongly) apart from in the international and diplomatic arena. However I expect most other governments would be sympathetic as they are mulling similar cuts to their aid programmes I would think.

CDfm

K-9 wrote: »

Ah, but spreading the word is part of their job! It isn't emigration, it's vocational. They aren't economic emigrants, you see my point?



Well instead of saying this money will pay for the cervical cancer programme, I linked to the €8 million wasted on a new office for the Financial Regulator in a Govt. funded failed Docklands project.

Quangos. 100 to be axed, only 4 yet.

Govt. PR agencies.

The western railway.

Do I have to go on?

I agree and always have that GNP is a fairer measure of Irelands expenditure than GDP.

I accept ALL expenditure rose during the boom. We have already cut Aid, the soft target. Time to look at the hard targets now.

personally - i agree with aid in principle but within our means and as of now we aint got no means.

K-9

CDfm wrote: »

Government expenditure increased during the boom -there is no surplus to pay the aid from.

But 10 years ago we paid Aid with no borrowing. So we could afford it.

The Thread is, would you abolish foreign Aid, would you?

Edit, didn't see your reply.

K-9

Iang87 wrote: »

Could never understand it myself how everyone else will be looked after except our own. if anyone coulld enlighten me with an explanation then by all means please do

What?

beautiation

64% of AHers want to cut back on foreign aid. These 64% must have never read about/been to the poor parts of Africa and are the types who turn off the tele whenever an aid appeal comes on. Because if they knew what was going on and still thought we shouldn't be helping however we can they'd be horrible people. I cannot believe some people actually think this recession means our need is now equatable to places like Sudan.

No wonder we're in a frigging depression. This whole philosophy of "it's our money, we should keep it for ourselves" is the exact same thought process the bankers went through when they decided they'd make as much for themselves as possible and dump on everyone else. Our unwillingness to confront the horrors of the extreme poverty in those countries can similarly explain why the recession is getting worse and worse- our reluctance to face any bad news when we can ignore it a bit longer or keep our fingers crossed some other country will sort it out.

Rb

beautiation wrote: »

64% of AHers want to cut back on foreign aid. These 64% must have never read about/been to the poor parts of Africa and are the types who turn off the tele whenever an aid appeal comes on. Because if they knew what was going on and still thought we shouldn't be helping however we can they'd be horrible people. I cannot believe some people actually think this recession means our need is now equatable to places like Sudan.

No wonder we're in a frigging depression. This whole philosophy of "it's our money, we should keep it for ourselves" is the exact same thought process the bankers went through when they decided they'd make as much for themselves as possible and dump on everyone else. Our unwillingness to confront the horrors of the extreme poverty in those countries can similarly explain why the recession is getting worse and worse- our reluctance to face any bad news when we can ignore it a bit longer or keep our fingers crossed some other country will sort it out.

So, what are you currently doing to help out in Sudan?

beautiation

beautiation wrote: »

64% of AHers want to cut back on foreign aid. These 64% must have never read about/been to the poor parts of Africa and are the types who turn off the tele whenever an aid appeal comes on. Because if they knew what was going on and still thought we shouldn't be helping however we can they'd be horrible people. I cannot believe some people actually think this recession means our need is now equatable to places like Sudan.



No wonder we're in a frigging depression. This whole philosophy of "it's our money, we should keep it for ourselves" is the exact same thought process the bankers went through when they decided they'd make as much for themselves as possible and dump on everyone else. Our unwillingness to confront the horrors of the extreme poverty in those countries can similarly explain why the recession is getting worse and worse- our reluctance to face any bad news when we can ignore it a bit longer or keep our fingers crossed some other country will sort it out.

Dave! wrote: »

No thanks, Africans don't stop having AIDS and dying of starvation and thirst during recessions. When Irish people start dying of recession then I'd consider abolishing it.

We didnt give them aids nor did we concieve their children that cant be fed for them!

As an African born stockbroker said on the radio last week,giving them aid does more harm than good.

K-9

Kaiden Melodic Flower wrote: »

We didnt give them aids nor did we concieve their children that cant be fed for them!

As an African born stockbroker said on the radio last week,giving them aid does more harm than good.

LOL, PMSL.

Using a stockbroker as a source as if African ones are different.

Sure the Nigerian Govt. say there is no poverty or asylum seekers from Nigeria.

Rented Mule

Kaiden Melodic Flower wrote: »

We didnt give them aids nor did we concieve their children that cant be fed for them!

As an African born stockbroker said on the radio last week,giving them aid does more harm than good.

The problem with that statement is 'who do you define as 'them'?'

Giving money to corrupt governements/dictators who do not use the bulk of the money for the intended recipients, the people, does do more harm than good.

The majority of these situations end up reinforcing the status quo and in turn end up having diasterous consequenses.

American foreign policy in Africa over the past 50 years have done more to prove that then anything else.

Good intentions do not always bring about good results.

Nodin

Rb wrote: »

Finally, with regards to the "At least some people somewhere in the world are worth that money" comment, what are you basing the term "worth" on? Education, skills, ability to contribute to society? How about even knowing what the right thing to do is?

If not, then what? Why do skill-less, uneducated and to some extent, uncivilised people deserve money instead of a skilled, educated workforce who cannot find work?

They don't, sorry.

Ja!!!! ve we must look after our own....