we're all being lubed up to get rightly shafted.

Akrasia

Listen to all of the government ministers in the media, their rhetoric is clear

"the rich pay the most income tax" "we need to widen the tax bands"

Basically, the poor are going to be taxed mercilessly and we should be grateful to our betters for paying for us all these years


we're probably going to have huge increases in the 'old reliables', a wider tax band and new taxes on domestic property and water.

These charges and indirect taxes will allow the state to continue to spin the myth of 'low tax Ireland' and allow them to claim that '6% of irish people pay 50% of the tax' when in reality it will be shifting even more of the tax burdon onto the poor by taxing everyday essentials.

There will be some nominal increases in taxes on the rich, but nothing that will cause them any real discomfort, certainly nowhere near as much as the lowest paid will suffer when they have to sacrifice more and more just to make ends meet.

The government will claim they are 'making decisions' and will attack anyone who critizes them no matter how valid the criticism.

they will go on about how everyone must share the pain and dodge all questions about how some people are facing extistential threat while others are getting off with little more than a minor inconvenience

drunkmonkey

so what you going to do about it?

diverdriver

Look forget the rich, there aren't enough of them, that we can tax them to save this country. Someone told me a statistic. If you took ALL the money off everyone earning more than €100k a year, it would only raise €2 billion. That's not enough.

Just making the rich uncomfortable would make any difference to the rest of us. We all have to be made uncomfortable whether we like it or not.

With due respect to you, many of the rich are the very people who provide employment for the rest of us. Penalising them too much would drive them away and we would all suffer even more.

So get rid of this communist, begrudger mentality. We actually need more rich people not less, rich people spend more, create jobs and are something to aspire to for young potential entrepeneurs. Without them we might as well be North Korea.

cm2000

only 20000 people earn over a hundred grand?? i find that hard to believe

dodgyme

this opinion is crazy - there is no point taxing the rich. If you closed off the loop holes and got them into the tax system whatever it would bring in it would be worth it and it would probably be alot more then people are forecasting when justifying crucifying the middle earners.

eoinbn

diverdriver wrote: »

Look forget the rich, there aren't enough of them, that we can tax them to save this country. Someone told me a statistic. If you took ALL the money off everyone earning more than €100k a year, it would only raise €2 billion. That's not enough.

Don't listen to that someone. In 2005 the total declared income above €100k was €16 billion, not €2b. Between €75-100k was another €7 billion.

OP:Welcome to capitalism. Ireland IS a low tax economy, but we are also a high cost economy which makes it hard to live on an income that would be considered comfortable in other countries.

Akrasia

diverdriver wrote: »

Look forget the rich, there aren't enough of them, that we can tax them to save this country. Someone told me a statistic. If you took ALL the money off everyone earning more than €100k a year, it would only raise €2 billion. That's not enough.

Was that someone a fianna fail spindoctor?
Are you suggesting that there is only 2 billion in wealth held by the super rich in Ireland today?

There are still loads of loopholes and hiding places for these people's money. They still own vast vast amounts of property and land that they are sitting on waiting for their next opportunity to rip us off again.

While the ordinary people are having their savings and incomes sucked away, the richest people in ireland are squirrelling away their wealth so they can profit further in the future. Not only is this compounding the current recession, it's grossely unfair and it more than justifies the public outrage at the targets of the cuts and the paid we have to bear.

With due respect to you, many of the rich are the very people who provide employment for the rest of us. Penalising them too much would drive them away and we would all suffer even more.

these people amassed vast fortunes off the backs of the rest of us and we are now bailing them out, screw them, they should be forced to pay their share, punitive taxes on investment property, unused land, excessive pensions. Link taxation to citizenship rights, if they want to call themselves Irish, they have to pay taxes in Ireland.

Send in the CAB to investigate every one of the high rollers, we will find that the percentage of people engaged in crime and fraud amongst these 'captains of industry' is higher than the percentage of criminals in even the poorest most deprived working class estates.

So get rid of this communist, begrudger mentality. We actually need more rich people not less, rich people spend more, create jobs and are something to aspire to for young potential entrepeneurs. Without them we might as well be North Korea.

bollox

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Iago

Akrasia wrote: »

n.

While the ordinary people are having their savings and incomes sucked away

what is the "ordinary" person earning each year? what's the band you have in mind?

<20k
<40k
<60k

what about an ordinary person who broke their balls working 50-60 hour weeks for 10 years to go from 18k a year to 80k a year, should we now say tough shít pal, now you can give us 50% of that to bail out the country.

I'm genuinely curious as to what people are thinking here. Everyone just wants to protect their own little cluster of people.

So you have the unemployed arguing that all benefits should be left alone.

You have people earning between 15-35k arguing that the higher tax rate should be increased and a new super tax introduced as well as social welfare benefits cut.

You have people earning between 36-65k arguing that benefits should be decreased, the standard tax band should be widened to included everyone and those earning over 70k should fay a new higher rate of tax.

You have those earning over 70k arguing that they've worked to get to this position, they worked hard in school and college, they started out on shít money and worked their way up to this. Why should they now be penalised for being successful. so cut the benefits instead and widen the tax bands on the existing rates.

everyone is fighting their own corner, and as long as they're not impacted then who cares! To me we're all ordinary people, we've all worked to get to where we are and will continue to work to improve our situation. I don't agree that just because someone earns over 100k they should automatically be screwed over, most people will have worked very hard to get to that position.

Raiser

What irritates me is that the continuous focus, debate and discourse is always on raising the tax take.

You rarely hear anyone querying what the fcuk they do with these astronomical sums of cash after that.

- Seems to me that these fools could squander ten times todays figures without breaking a sweat..... Its like pouring water into sand with them....

Darragh29

Breaking news:

A package from the government will be distributed to every household in the country to inform and more importantly prepare people for the next budget at the end of the month....

grahamo

I don't believe for a minute that '6% of the population pay 60% of the tax.' Statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say.
The one thing you can depend on in this world is that whatever it is that goes wrong, the ordinary joe will pay for it, whether its his/her fault or not!
Of course we are all gonna get shafted, and the govt. will make it seem as though we're all helping our fellow man by saying 'We're all in it together'.
What is annoying is that we were NOT all in it together when the fatcats and moneymen were taking Ireland for all it was worth over the last few years!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dresden8

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I hope you take that viewpoint about my wages.

Daithinski

Iago wrote: »

what about an ordinary person who broke their balls working 50-60 hour weeks for 10 years to go from 18k a year to 80k a year, should we now say tough shít pal, now you can give us 50% of that to bail out the country.

Of course they shouldn't pay more tax. They are the clever hard working people. Not like those other idiots who lost their jobs. They deserve to keep all of their money.

Eh, it mightn't be fair to them, but its a lot fairer on society as a whole.

Thats whats good about being in a society. The theory is that everybody helps everybody else a bit when they need it. If I believed that someone on low money needed the money less than someone on high money I would agree with you, but that isn't how it works. No matter how much anyone tries to spin it.

Someone has to pay more tax. Obviously you would prefer (and who wouldn't) if somebody on 30k took a hit on their wages. Instead of you on your 80k. Taking an extra 100 quid a month off someone on 30k would likely have a far bigger impact on their quality of life than someone on 80k.

But you broke your balls, unlike all the lazy feckers who aren't on as much money (because of their laziness no doubt).

Let them eat cake the lazy no-good-niks.

The_Minister

grahamo wrote: »

I don't believe for a minute that '6% of the population pay 60% of the tax.' Statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say.

Doesn't matter if you don't like it, its true.

In terms of income tax we place a far higher burden (proportionatly) on the richest than most other European nations, and we have one of the highest points at which one starts paying tax.

is_that_so

Even if Richard Boyd Barrett were Minister for Finance and Finian McGrath were Taioseach the tax increases would have to come anyway. On income tax a 1% in the base rate raises about €500 million whereas a 1% increase in the top rate only raises €235 million. Income tax, while it might take a few months to implement, would generate the large sums needed. Equally excise can be relied on to add large tranches of cash to the coffers. The question after that is where to go and we need to expand the tax base asap. With the commission on taxation due to report sometime later this year some temporary targets need to be found. Much as I've repeatedly said FF are too long in government we are not going to get out of this without some serious collective effort and better that they figure out, even if it is belatedly, that something needs to be done than not at all. And that unfortunately includes an awful lot more tax in whatever form.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Akrasia

Iago wrote: »

what is the "ordinary" person earning each year? what's the band you have in mind?

<20k
<40k
<60k

By ordinary I mean the people who earn the bottom (circa) 90% of incomes in this country earning below or just above the average industrial wage..
People who have to work for every penny they get.

Above 2 or 3 times the average industrial wage, people start to earn money purely on the basis of having so much surplus capital to invest.
This has always been the definition of a capitalist, in recent times the availability of credit meant that many more individuals could have access to this surplus capital to invest, but this was fueled by debt, not the kinds of capital ordinary people have access to, loans with high interest rates, secured on real assets, with regular repayment schedules, but funny money loans extremely highly leveraged that allowed anyone well connected enough 'brave' enough or corrupt enough to spend money that they did not earn for private investments that enrich themselves massively, while surrounding themselves with legal instruments to protect themselves from the massive risks they were taking.

What happens when these investments collapse? the debts are written off, the debtor hides behind contracts and shell companies and 'limited liability' and everyone else pays for the bad debt. This is exactly what has caused this economic crisis and it is exactly why we should ruthlessly target the people who made this mess, not just to recoup the losses they have already landed us with, but to prevent them from using their ill gotten gains to rape us again when the hard work and sacrifice of ordinary people eventually manage to pull our economy out of the toilet.

what about an ordinary person who broke their balls working 50-60 hour weeks for 10 years to go from 18k a year to 80k a year, should we now say tough shít pal, now you can give us 50% of that to bail out the country.

is it worse than someone working 40 hours a week to earn 19k a year being told that they have to hand over the pittance they have to bail out banks and developers?

Anyway, I'm mainly concerned with the people who accumulated wealth now make most of their income from investments and other people's work.
People that benefitted hugely from the bubble, in many cases fought tooth and nail to make it even more bubbly and are now closing ranks to protect what they've got even at the expense of their fellow citizens being forced into destitution

Akrasia

The_Minister wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you don't like it, its true.

In terms of income tax we place a far higher burden (proportionatly) on the richest than most other European nations, and we have one of the highest points at which one starts paying tax.

Income tax is only about 30% of the total tax take. As a proportion of income, lower paid people have a much much much higher tax burden than the richest 6%

The irish income tax take is one of the lowest in the world per individual, but our overall tax burden has not changed during the last decade, this can only mean that the type of taxation has changed from progressive direct taxation, to indirect service charges excise duties and 'stealth taxes' (such as parking charges, tolled roads, car taxes, bin charges, stamp duty, charges for ATM cards and credit cards, plastic bag taxes.........

All of which drive up the costs of living and feed into a wage spiral.

oppiuy

I hate tax, i also hate the people who got us in this mess but we've all got to pull together now. Tax me what you will but make this tax fair across the board for everyone. like the 1% levy that doesnt apply to barristers.

ManFromAtlantis

a fair tax means everybody should pay the same.
why should ben dunne pay more than the guy on the dole?
it might be right but in fairness its not fair is it?

ManFromAtlantis

ps obvioulsy ff are holding back on the property tax for everybody etc until after the local elections.
do they think we are that stupid. we knows what they is doin.

oppiuy

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

a fair tax means everybody should pay the same.
why should ben dunne pay more than the guy on the dole?
it might be right but in fairness its not fair is it?

I mean "Fair" as in propotionate. Im no politican or mathematican so dont quizz me on that.What i really what to see is some urgency from our leaders and no conmen stunts. i never vote ff anyway so they need not worry about losing my vote

Iago

Daithinski wrote: »

Someone has to pay more tax. Obviously you would prefer (and who wouldn't) if somebody on 30k took a hit on their wages. Instead of you on your 80k. Taking an extra 100 quid a month off someone on 30k would likely have a far bigger impact on their quality of life than someone on 80k.

But you broke your balls, unlike all the lazy feckers who aren't on as much money (because of their laziness no doubt).

I knew someone would take it wrong way, but I'm hardly surprised given the main point I was trying to make which is that everyone is retreating into protectionism for themselves. The first instinct is to lash out at everyone else. So let me assuage your anger somewhat by pointing out that just because I take a position doesn't mean I'm in that position.

For clarification I don't dispute that if there is more tax to be paid then everyone should pay it, my point is that it should be the same across the board. As another poster alluded to above, adding 1% to the standard rate of income tax will bring in an extra €500m so do that.

The person earning €30k will pay an extra €300 a year, the person earning €80k will pay an extra €800 a year. That's equitable and fair.

If you add 1% to the standard rate and 2% to the higher rate, then the person earning €30k will still only pay an extra €300 a year, but the person earning €80k now pays an extra €800 on one tax band and an additional €380 (or so) on the next tax band and is therefore giving up 4 times as much as the person on the lower salary. That's not equitable or fair.

Whether they can afford to pay it more or not is irrelevant, we are basically penalising people for working hard to develop their career and being successful, and that just doesn't sit right with me.


The reality is that any increase in income tax is actually going to have a very limited effect on improving the financial position of the country. Increasing income tax will;

- dissuade people from taking lower paid jobs
- which will increase the burden of state benefits
- and lead to an increase of people looking to get paid cash in hand to keep claiming benefits

it is also self defeating as a measure in the current envoirnment given the number of jobs being lost on a daily basis. By the time they've implemented this and started to see any benefit the number of jobs lost will have almost wiped out the good it will do. It'll also erode any small remaining goodwill the government has and the political cost of it will far outweigh the revenue received.

In saying all that, I think they'll

- increase both bands by 2%
- widen the lowest tax band range to include lower earners
- reduce the jobseekers payments by anywhere between 5-10%
- increase the credit/debit card levy
- introduce an annual property charge
- possibly increase the income levy by another 1%

Nobody is getting out of this unscathed. but that doesn't mean that any one section of society should be screwed over during it.

oppiuy

Poster above makes a lot of sense. What cant our leaders come out and straight talk us. We might not like it, but we will respect it.

iago, you fancy running for office

ardmacha

s a proportion of income, lower paid people have a much much much higher tax burden than the richest 6%

With this sort of nonsense, it is no wonder the country is the way that it is.

- increase both bands by 2%

yes something like this.

- widen the lowest tax band range to include lower earners

yes or introduce lower rate band e.g. 12% below present limits.

reduce the jobseekers payments by anywhere between 5-10%

Inflation is negative, prices are not higher than last year. All salaries and all benefits should be reset to those in April last year.

- increase the credit/debit card levy

this would be silly since they emphasised that it should be phased out. It is a profoundly stupid tax.

- introduce an annual property charge

Probably not now, it takes too long to get going.

Add taxing children's allowances and similar benefit received by well off people.

bk

We are all going to have to pay more tax, the rich, the middle class and yes, even the poor.

The reality is that the state of the Irish exchequer is so bad, that there is no way to avoid it. Let me give you some numbers that might help people understand just how bad it is:

This year the government deficit looks like it will be 20 Billion.

Roughly 2 million people pay tax in Ireland, so if you had to raise the 20 Billion via extra tax, each of the 2 million tax payers would have to pay €10,000 EXTRA PER YEAR each!!!

Of course it isn't quiet that simple, the rich will pay more tax and the poor less. But it is inescapable that in order to at least to attempt to balance the budget, we all, including the low paid, will need to pay significantly more tax. Sorry but it is just unavoidable at this stage.

Akrasia

bk wrote: »

We are all going to have to pay more tax, the rich, the middle class and yes, even the poor.

The reality is that the state of the Irish exchequer is so bad, that there is no way to avoid it. Let me give you some numbers that might help people understand just how bad it is:

This year the government deficit looks like it will be 20 Billion.

Roughly 2 million people pay tax in Ireland, so if you had to raise the 20 Billion via extra tax, each of the 2 million tax payers would have to pay €10,000 EXTRA PER YEAR each!!!

Of course it isn't quiet that simple, the rich will pay more tax and the poor less. But it is inescapable that in order to at least to attempt to balance the budget, we all, including the low paid, will need to pay significantly more tax. Sorry but it is just unavoidable at this stage.

but it has to be seen to be fair because in reality, this will hit the working poor much harder than the rich and the poor are the people who benefited least from the 'celtic tiger'

There are people out there putting huundreds of thousands of euros into pension funds and claiming 40% tax relief, transferring wealth into shelf companies to avoid creditors (defaults that will be paid for by the Irish people), swanning in and out of the country and claiming to be tax exiles.....

mumhaabu

I think the Irish Government needs to cut back on spending rather than increasing taxes. I would axe a minimum of one hundred thousand public employees and also begin to tax the companies that generate millions of profits which are taken out of this country. Tax the likes of Tesco and Diageo, similary with O2 and Vodafone etc. It is time to increase taxes on profits made in Ireland but cut corporation tax to allow foreign based companies to use us as a tax haven in an even greater capacity. A property valuation scheme needs to be introduced and tax according to property valu, with a 5million mansion in D4 paying say €10,000 and year and have a flat bottom of €1,000. We need to adopt the German model where taxes are quite moderate and public services excellent with average wages delivering a very good quality of life.

Instead we have high taxes, crap public services and average wages shoving people to the poverty line and the big mega corporations paying little or no tax. We need to look after our SME's and indigenous young entrepeuners as there the countries future lies. Axe all farm subsidies too.

Daithinski

I'd say its probably time the horsey stud-farm people should pay a bit more tax.

So far I haven't heard them mentioned.