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Is nuclear power feasible in our current economy.
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You can just see the headline already...
"Meltdown in Ireland while Nuclear Regulator Sleeps"
The day we put a nuclear reactor on this Island is the day I'm outa here!
Its a physical impossibility for modern reactor designs to meltdown.
No matter how much you could screw up, it goes against the laws of physics as they are all designed with a negative void coefficient, so the hotter they get the slower the reaction takes place.
Also to make you sleep tighter at night, there are still 3 nuclear power plants with the reactor design that was used at chernobyl in use
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Delta Kilo wrote: »I think the infrastructure involved is a major issue...Think about it, we would have to dig up all of the roads, all the way from Malin head to Mizen head and out to clifden. It would only really work in a city and it would involve a huge amount of disruption that would cost a fortune. Maybe if there were a load of tunnels or something there already which could be converted.
Plus, it dosen't mention how the steam is created in the first place.
I should of used this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration
Was thinking along the lines of industrial companies utilising it locally to a generator.
Yeah ,it says the generator runs at 550oC and is cooled by liquid sodium ,but looking at other generators they use water to do it
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Its a physical impossibility for modern reactor designs to meltdown.
No matter how much you could screw up, it goes against the laws of physics as they are all designed with a negative void coefficient, so the hotter they get the slower the reaction takes place.
Also to make you sleep tighter at night, there are still 3 nuclear power plants with the reactor design that was used at chernobyl in use
I posted a link to pebble reactor earlier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor
basically you are right
as reactor heats up the pebbles expand and reaction coolsdown
the reactor in a container links i posted work along the lines and hence dont need anyone keeping eye on them
no chernobyl style meltdown
btw the chernobyl accident is quite interesting read, basically these guys decided to see how far they can push the reactor *with safeties off*
and top of my head reactor 4 blew the lid (quite literary), these soviet reactors didnt have protective concrete shells which would have prevented the release of nuclear material into the environment, and yes if it makes people sleep better at night the other reactors are still working [there are 3 left at the Chernobyl site] with people being employed and other similar model reactors scattered thruout old ussr
also the Chernobyl disaster has been greatly over hyped, beside the firefighters that died straight away the recent UN report says less harm was observed than predicted
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/05/AR2005090501144.htmlOnly 50 deaths can be directly attributed to radiation at
Chernobyl.
i can recommend an interesting book
http://www.amazon.com/Power-Save-World-Nuclear-Energy/dp/0307266567
Page 98:There is a table of millirems per year from the
background in a list of inhabited places.
Chernobyl: 490 millirem/year
Guarapari, Brazil: 3700 millirem/year
Tamil Nadu, India: 5300 millirem/year
Ramsar, Iran: 8900 to 13200 millirem/year
Zero excess cancer deaths are recorded. All are natural except for
Chernobyl.
Page 50:Power reactors make Plutonium 240 [Pu240]. Pu240 is
useless for making bombs. Plutonium bombs require Pu239.
Pu239 is made in reactors that are specialized for making Pu239.
Governments own Pu239 makers, not power companies.
Page 75:A coal fired power plant gives you 100 to 400 times as
much radiation as a nuclear power plant. Worldwide, an average
person gets 0.01 millirem/year from nuclear power plants, the same
as eating one banana. Bananas contain potassium and some of the
potassium is radioactive potassium 40. This has always been the
case.
Page 196:The captured fly ash [from a COAL fired power plant] includes arsenic, lead, molybdenum, cadmium, chromium, uranium and thorium. The fly ash is mixed with water, then dried out. Coal waste goes into bowling balls, golf balls, wallboard, paving materials and land fills. Mercury is an invisible gas as it exits the stacks. “Coal-fired plants are the biggest producers of mercury emissions in the country, spouting fifty unregulated tons per year.” “A 1,000-megawatt coal plant also freely disperses about twenty-seven metric tons of radiological material a year, exposing people to much more low-level radiation than a nuclear plant would.”
Moneypoint is 1000MW, i hope you dont happen to live next to it....0 -
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Yes and no. Running a nuclear power station is very different to designing and building one and substantially simpler. Send a team of core people to an identical reactor abroad of the design we're building and so on. There's a substantial body of knowledge and training available to us in the EU in this matter. It's not like we'll have to jump in blind or anything.
simple question:
Do you sign the receipt as "unchecked" when the DHL man delivers your brand new breeder reactor?
Ever assembled a flatpack? There's always either one screw missing or a few left over when you're done
Sure, we'll just train the operators and let them start up our brand new reactor ...don't forget yer allen keys, boys :pac:
Just a tad blue-eyed, methinks0 -
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I want to get a few things clear
i am not against renewables, as someone who worked with power generation and seen the data on wind power, I am being a realist here and realize it will not solve all our problems alone due to some serious and expensive shortcomings
i am against dirty fossil fuel plants, ive been at quite a few power plants in this country, and after seeing the mountains of coal they burn in moneypoint (yes i know ESB is spending 300 million on "environmental retrofit" project) one quickly realises that this country is very very un green
this thread shouldn't be an argument of windpower (etc) vs nuclear
but instead what this country needs is a mix, the following energy mix would be ideal
40-60% Nuclear > providing most of the base load
20-30% Renewable > renewables already get priority and since nuclear plants can ramp up/down ouput faster than coal plants makes for quite flexible mix, also included in this more energy storage solutions
remainder % > Gas , this is the cleanest of the fossil fuels, allows for the power plants to be ramped up/down very quickly (compared to days it takes to warm up turf/coal plants) and we have amounts of it off our shores
once this is in place i would love to have a big inter connector and a DC grid to lower transmission losses
all the dirty coal, oil and turf be closed (ESB will go down kicking and screaming)
any excess electricity from the nuke/wind plants/farms could be converted to hydrogen and maybe used to power the public transport fleet
and there kids we have a solution to the energy needs of this country for the 21st century, and from my back of napkin calculations its still cheaper than relying on foreign energy resources and bailing out corrupt banks
the above would create alot of engineering jobs and r&d which is exactly what this country needs to be competitive, also cheap and reliable energy sources would attract hi-tech industries such as data centers(my current line of work) creating further employment, the above can be achieved in a 5-7 year window, this country has done big projects before during some bad times and it can be done again
edit: someone mentioned cogeneration, i lived in a place that has this and its great, free heat in winter (and winters were cold there) and since the pipes were poorly insulated the main street under which it ran was always ice free not sure whether by design or genuine frack up
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yoshytoshy wrote: »Whats stopping the government using the unemployed tradesmen ,to work on windfarm projects then.
We might actually get something out of this stint we're in at the moment.
they are too caught up with pouring money down banking black holes and dinning out with the golden shower 0 -
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yoshytoshy wrote: »Whats stopping the government using the unemployed tradesmen ,to work on windfarm projects then.
We might actually get something out of this stint we're in at the moment.
Exactly my point ...thanks for getting it 0 -
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Exactly my point ...thanks for getting it
you know if all thes construction workers were put into building a better infrastructure all well and good i would be happy of such a decision, at least its more useful than empty houses
but there are issues,
* it would seem as "communistic" just look at the names Obama is being called for bringing up the idea of public works projects
* how to pay for it? the government is about to dig into the infrastructure purse as well cutting/postponing vital projects such as motorways (this will hurt us in long term)0 -
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yoshytoshy wrote: »We shouldn't let things get us down though ,there is loads this country can do and we've a lot to look forward to I think.
Obama seems like a genuine person ,but it will cost us in the long run ,he seems like a homegrown type of person.
I believe we should look towards europe for our future ,with relations in china/japan.
we the irish stuck a middle finger up to europe less than a year ago, i sure hope they dont hold it against us and we as nation come to our senses that ireland can not float alone in the world (just point to Iceland the next time a Liberats/SF supporter says we can do it alone, i still remember Lisbon threads last year with NO supporters pointing at Iceland's "success" and wealth of resources such as fishing what a difference a few months make)
japan is after suffering 40% drop in imports they are after emerging from a rot only to be dragged into another one
china is holding all the cards and has potential to emerge out of this crisis as the only superpower
ironic how their mix of communism and capitalism is leading to success, these people have it all planned out for decades ahead, and dont suffer from our short term thinking government and if you dont want a dam, road or powerplant in your backyard, tough!
us is like a person who mortgaged themselves out 10x their income and now their income is dwindling and they are looking for another huge mortgage, hence Hillary Clinton's "beggin bowl" mission to China
i sure hope Obama will turn things as the alternative will be ugly, China and US are currently in a economic version of "Mutual Assured Destruction" with china owning huge $ reserves and us addicted to cheap imports
for anyone looking for some good reading here is one excellent blog
http://cynicuseconomicus.blogspot.com/2009/03/china-gold-and-us.html
cheerio0 -
you know if all thes construction workers were put into building a better infrastructure all well and good i would be happy of such a decision, at least its more useful than empty houses
but there are issues,
* it would seem as "communistic" just look at the names Obama is being called for bringing up the idea of public works projects
* how to pay for it? the government is about to dig into the infrastructure purse as well cutting/postponing vital projects such as motorways (this will hurt us in long term)
I believe (although I'm not sure) that something like this could be done without too much money actually flowing out of the governement koffers.
There are quite a few Irish companies already dabbling in wind and other alternative energies, those companies need boosting.
A grant here and there, but more importantly, a governement plan of what needs to be built where, a legislative framework for express planning permission processes, a standardised design specification, regulation of the energy market to boost alternative power sources and their access to the grid...in short a big governement push towards alternative energy and these companies should be flying, despite the recession.0 -
we the irish stuck a middle finger up to europe less than a year ago, i sure hope they dont hold it against us and we as nation come to our senses that ireland can not float alone in the world (just point to Iceland the next time a Liberats/SF supporter says we can do it alone, i still remember Lisbon threads last year with NO supporters pointing at Iceland's "success" and wealth of resources such as fishing what a difference a few months make)
japan is after suffering 40% drop in imports they are after emerging from a rot only to be dragged into another one
china is holding all the cards and has potential to emerge out of this crisis as the only superpower
ironic how their mix of communism and capitalism is leading to success, these people have it all planned out for decades ahead, and dont suffer from our short term thinking government and if you dont want a dam, road or powerplant in your backyard, tough!
us is like a person who mortgaged themselves out 10x their income and now their income is dwindling and they are looking for another huge mortgage, hence Hillary Clinton's "beggin bowl" mission to China
i sure hope Obama will turn things as the alternative will be ugly, China and US are currently in a economic version of "Mutual Assured Destruction" with china owning huge $ reserves and us addicted to cheap imports
for anyone looking for some good reading here is one excellent blog
http://cynicuseconomicus.blogspot.com/2009/03/china-gold-and-us.html
cheerio
I agree with your sentiments, but I think its wrong the say that China will emerge the only superpower.
The only financial superpower, that seems more reasonable.
The EU is actually the largest economy in the world, but given that we are less than a confederation, its not really comparing like for like.
But nobody can come within a running jump of the US in terms of military might. The US have the biggest and most advanced and most plentiful supply of weaponary, aircraft, navy and army.
The only people who could even dream of standing up to them would be Russia, and thats if they invaded Russia, and even at that, its pushing it.
The Chinese have a huge army, but not advanced, they buy technology from the Russians and rent their pilots for training and their mechanics frequently too.
Besides, a large chunk of the US population are by and large so brainwashed, that they would fight for free on an empty stomach, just out of patriotisim, ideology and religious beliefs.
But anyway, I'm going way off topic.
Lots more info here if you're interested:
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/default.asp0 -
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