RC or Non RC

TSG 15

MrsGeneHunt wrote: »

ROTFLMAO:P

( Sorry bout the text speak PYG!!)

ROTF? got the rest, a bit slow

nickni

ROTF = Roll On The Floor.

MrsGeneHunt

TSG 15 wrote: »

ROTF? got the rest, a bit slow

Laughing my A$$ off!!
Best get back to topic or le Moderator will have a field day infracting one and all.;)

TSG 15

MrsGeneHunt wrote: »

Laughing my A$$ off!!
Best get back to topic or le Moderator will have a field day infracting one and all.;)

When I first joined the RUC I had an hour long interview in my own home and that was just to explain to a Sergeant why I wanted to be a cop. Not squeeze 105 words into a box......... and nobody asked me what my religion was

nickni

Maybe you cant answer tsg, but how long ago we talking? That sounds like a far better way imo

MrsGeneHunt

TSG 15 wrote: »

When I first joined the RUC I had an hour long interview in my own home and that was just to explain to a Sergeant why I wanted to be a cop. Not squeeze 105 words into a box......... and nobody asked me what my religion was

Yup. Lot to be said for that way of doing things.

TSG 15

nickni wrote: »

Maybe you cant answer tsg, but how long ago we talking? That sounds like a far better way imo

Almost 20 years ago..... They took on babies then . At that time I was in the full time reserve but I then had to go through the same process as you are all doing more recently to get into the regular force. Its complicated if you dont know what the FTR is.

dark side

TSG 15 wrote: »

Can you imagine the outcry anywhere else in the UK if 50.50 recruiting was introduced to address imbalace of under representation of, for instance, black officers. It just wont happen. The human rights act says that to discriminate against someone on grounds of their religeon is unlawful and it does not list Northern Ireland as an exception.

HI TSG maybe not 50:50 recruiting happened in the UK - but there is definately positive discrimination towards ethnic minorities, that was brought in after a report into the death of Steven Lawerence - But they are scrapping it now.

TSG 15

dark side wrote: »

HI TSG maybe not 50:50 recruiting happened in the UK - but there is definately positive discrimination towards ethnic minorities, that was brought in after a report into the death of Steven Lawerence - But they are scrapping it now.

I dont doubt what you are saying but the just cant "bring it in" I needs to be legislated for because it is illegal to discriminate on race, gender, religion, etc

Troy Bayliss

Patten recommended 10 years or 30% both of which are nearly due so it'll lapse on that quota. Any ideas why it was only 30% and not a more represenative 40%+ ?

tickle_monster

Troy Bayliss wrote: »

Patten recommended 10 years or 30% both of which are nearly due so it'll lapse on that quota. Any ideas why it was only 30% and not a more represenative 40%+ ?

in my opinion the serving officers dont treat people differently on the grounds of religion, 30% seems to keep the public happy, in reality the officers ive met and know dont concern themselves with trivial matters such as someones religion, they want to do the job they signed up for because they genuinely want to help the community, they are a credit to themselves and everyone who lives here.

also patten said the ruc only had 8% but i know of a lecturer who did research and actually asked the officers what religion they were rather than using the official stats that went by school and he found that it was nearer 14% i dont know how accurate it was. i think we currently have a very fair and very effective police service and pushing rc numbers up to 40% isnt likely to change anything within it. thats just my take on it though

Uilleam

Just a little food for thought.
Whilst the vast majority will agree that discrimination is wrong, regardless of the reason, unfortunately where the PSNI's discriminatory policy on recruitment is concerned there is not much light at the end of the tunnel for the Non RC applicants who have been on the receiving end.
In 2004 Lord Laird announced his intention to bring a legal challenge against the UK government policy of 50:50 recruitment to the PSNI. Lawyers in London, preparing the action for the Ulster Unionist peer, accepted that the government agreed an opt out from European law on fair employment and discrimination on the issue. This basically ensured that the British Government could enforce this policy in the North of Ireland regarding PSNI recruitment.
I don't see any choice for applicants other than to accept a fait accompli.
If you feel really lucky, an application under the FoI for the details of those accepted from both religions and their respective merit numbers before embarking on an expensive legal action for discrimination against the Chief Constable, through the European Court, is the only avenue for disenfranchised Protestants.
Both Consensia and now Delloite have been careful to ensure their part is not discriminatory in any way.

TSG 15

tickle_monster wrote: »

also patten said the ruc only had 8% but i know of a lecturer who did research and actually asked the officers what religion they were rather than using the official stats that went by school and he found that it was nearer 14% i dont know how accurate it was. i think we currently have a very fair and very effective police service and pushing rc numbers up to 40% isnt likely to change anything within it. thats just my take on it though

It was worked out on community background, not necessarily religion. If you went to a state school you would be deemed to be non rc. even though many Catholics did and still go to state schools.

Troy Bayliss

Patten's medium term strategy has worked, the other flip of the coin is huge numbers were in the Police during the conflict, its a quirk of history its harder to get into now.

TSG 15

Uilleam wrote: »

Just a little food for thought.
Whilst the vast majority will agree that discrimination is wrong, regardless of the reason, unfortunately where the PSNI's discriminatory policy on recruitment is concerned there is not much light at the end of the tunnel for the Non RC applicants who have been on the receiving end.
In 2004 Lord Laird announced his intention to bring a legal challenge against the UK government policy of 50:50 recruitment to the PSNI. Lawyers in London, preparing the action for the Ulster Unionist peer, accepted that the government agreed an opt out from European law on fair employment and discrimination on the issue. This basically ensured that the British Government could enforce this policy in the North of Ireland regarding PSNI recruitment.
I don't see any choice for applicants other than to accept a fait accompli.
If you feel really lucky, an application under the FoI for the details of those accepted from both religions and their respective merit numbers before embarking on an expensive legal action for discrimination against the Chief Constable, through the European Court, is the only avenue for disenfranchised Protestants.
Both Consensia and now Delloite have been careful to ensure their part is not discriminatory in any way.

Still morally wrong, but then when the same Government allowed convicted murderers to walk free from prison it shows the real regard they have for the citizens of this part of the uk. On the other hand maybe its the fault of those north and south who voted "YES" IN 1998 for this sorry state of affairs. Neither would happen on the mainland.

MustBeCrazy

TSG 15 wrote: »

Still morally wrong, but then when the same Government allowed convicted murderers to walk free from prison it shows the real regard they have for the citizens of this part of the uk. On the other hand maybe its the fault of those north and south who voted "YES" IN 1998 for this sorry state of affairs. Neither would happen on the mainland.

I think it's a pity the board has been brought to this and I'm really disappointed. You have spoken your mind and it's obvious you were happy with the RUC the way it was and are not happy with the recent changes. That is your opinion, but I don't think a message (support?) board for people trying to join the PSNI is the place to air those views.

I can understand non RCs who have applied being disillusioned with the current recruitment process when RCs who didn't score as well are being offered places ahead of them or even instead of them, but you are a serving officer who seems to be using this board to voice your opinions and annoyance at the new system and I really don't see how it's helping anyone.

I've found this board a wealth of information and so helpful - I would have been lost without it during C14. For that reason I hope nobody applying to C15 reads through this thread and is put off using the board as some of the posts here in the past few days, though perhaps unintentional, are quite offensive.

The people of this country need a police force they can trust and believe will represent them fairly and without prejudice. For many reasons this wasn't the case with the RUC, and so the need for new policing is there. That is the long and the short of it. We need a representative police force and the only way to do that is for 10 years or so, to run 2 campaigns basically side by side, one for RCs and one for non RCs and pick the top 220 out of both. Then it can go back to normal recruitment when hopefully as many RCs will feel able to apply as non RCs. I really can't think of any other way a balanced police force could be created out of what we had here.

During the next campaign I will still use the boards but I guess you could say you've cured my addicition. It definitely doesn't have the same friendly vibe around here anymore.

Now....ready for the backlash :eek:

TSG 15

MustBeCrazy wrote: »

I think it's a pity the board has been brought to this and I'm really disappointed. You have spoken your mind and it's obvious you were happy with the RUC the way it was and are not happy with the recent changes. That is your opinion, but I don't think a message (support?) board for people trying to join the PSNI is the place to air those views.

I can understand non RCs who have applied being disillusioned with the current recruitment process when RCs who didn't score as well are being offered places ahead of them or even instead of them, but you are a serving officer who seems to be using this board to voice your opinions and annoyance at the new system and I really don't see how it's helping anyone.

I've found this board a wealth of information and so helpful - I would have been lost without it during C14. For that reason I hope nobody applying to C15 reads through this thread and is put off using the board as some of the posts here in the past few days, though perhaps unintentional, are quite offensive.

The people of this country need a police force they can trust and believe will represent them fairly and without prejudice. For many reasons this wasn't the case with the RUC, and so the need for new policing is there. That is the long and the short of it. We need a representative police force and the only way to do that is for 10 years or so, to run 2 campaigns basically side by side, one for RCs and one for non RCs and pick the top 220 out of both. Then it can go back to normal recruitment when hopefully as many RCs will feel able to apply as non RCs. I really can't think of any other way a balanced police force could be created out of what we had here.

During the next campaign I will still use the boards but I guess you could say you've cured my addicition. It definitely doesn't have the same friendly vibe around here anymore.

Now....ready for the backlash :eek:

Hey, No backlash, not in the slightest. not from me anyway. I just get so annoyed when my non rc friends get into the recruitment pool time after time and rcs with a lower score actually get the job instead. Its the opinion of lots around here.

Dont be put off please, :cool:

TSG 15

MustBeCrazy wrote: »

but you are a serving officer who seems to be using this board to voice your opinions and annoyance at the new system and I really don't see how it's helping anyone.

Can I just ps by saying that I restricted the comments to this thread as it is a rc/ non rc thread and at that just may be a hot topic in any case. No offence intended.

cpn

Now....ready for the backlash :eek:[/quote]

Sure a bit of healthy debate is good fun. After all resilience is one of the 7 key competencies:)

TSG 15

cpn wrote: »

Now....ready for the backlash :eek:

Sure a bit of healthy debate is good fun. After all resilience is one of the 7 key competencies:)[/quote]

Ok, but not if it offends which is a point well made by MBC. I dont care or ask what religion my colleagues are. This is a question about the selection procedure and nothing else. The job is still accepting high calibre recruits without question

MustBeCrazy

TSG 15 wrote: »

Can I just ps by saying that I restricted the comments to this thread as it is a rc/ non rc thread and at that just may be a hot topic in any case. No offence intended.

Thank you. I'm sure it is a hot topic but a very inflammatory one too unfortunately. Anyway, I've said my piece so I will now shut up

integra1

TSG 15 wrote: »

Hey, No backlash, not in the slightest. not from me anyway. I just get so annoyed when my non rc friends get into the recruitment pool time after time and rcs with a lower score actually get the job instead. Its the opinion of lots around here.

Dont be put off please, :cool:

I would have to say this is very frustrating and I know friends also who have been in the pool time and time again with no joy, even myself, I have been in a very appointable position if I was RC last time round. However, as MBC says, the only comfort we can draw from 50/50 is that the Non RCs are competing for 1 of 220 places not 440. With that in mind it softens the blow a bit! IMO....Also, this thread is clearly titled RC or Non RC so if it stays in here, people can and should air their views sensibly, without the Mods shouting, aint that right PYG?!:D

PapaYankeeGirl

integra1 wrote: »

I would have to say this is very frustrating and I know friends also who have been in the pool time and time again with no joy, even myself, I have been in a very appointable position if I was RC last time round. However, as MBC says, the only comfort we can draw from 50/50 is that the Non RCs are competing for 1 of 220 places not 440. With that in mind it softens the blow a bit! IMO....Also, this thread is clearly titled RC or Non RC so if it stays in here, people can and should air their views sensibly, without the Mods shouting, aint that right PYG?!:D

Right, Teg!

Troy Bayliss

TSG 15 wrote: »

Still morally wrong, but then when the same Government allowed convicted murderers to walk free from prison it shows the real regard they have for the citizens of this part of the uk. On the other hand maybe its the fault of those north and south who voted "YES" IN 1998 for this sorry state of affairs. Neither would happen on the mainland.

There is quite a few negatives there, in a democracy politics is the game and trading positions from a high point downwards is how it works. To seal the deal so to speak all paramilitary prisonesr were released under a lifetime licence, mess about and your back inside to serve your term. So there are safeguards and most of those let out never reoffended. On the referendum well it was an historical moment the south relinquished articles 2 and 3 and the vast majority said enough and wanted peace, maybe not perfect but it'll take time. As for the mainland and policing, well again we are historically a different police to deal with specific circumstances, Robert Peel established a Policing service in Ireland of a kind which was the first in the world. From then onwards Ireland had a Police on the paramilitary model the RIC and latterly RUC. The rest of the UK always had a civilian model of policing which was entirely different. Our old model of policing is in a state of change to civilian at present, the paramilitary model is still prevalent on the continent and indeed the RIC college in Tipperary trained the Police force's personnel used throughout the British Empire.
Sorry about the history lesson but its better to know what we where and think positive.

TSG 15

Troy Bayliss wrote: »

Sorry about the history lesson but its better to know what we where and think positive.

Its also a lot to do with our geographical location within the UK. We are the only force who Police a border frontier with another state. We can also not rely on support quickly from neighbouring forces as happens on the mainland. PSNI now stands alone in Northern Ireland without military support. Thats why the RUC was run slightly along more military lines than any other force in UK. Its now the PSNIs job to step up to the mark. I have no doubt it will.

Uilleam

I think we have pretty much thrashed this argument to a pulp. Whilst we will always find matters to disagree on, I have no doubt we will find many more upon which we are united, even if it isn't politics.
Law and Order is a very important matter and one I don't believe our so called assembly will ever be able to address in a successful manner. To that end I believe it best we leave such matters in the hands of the two interested National Governments, with religion outside the remit.
Time to move on from this bitter pill.
Good luck to all who have applied to the PSNI on both sides of the divide.

TSG 15

Uilleam wrote: »

I think we have pretty much thrashed this argument to a pulp.
Good luck to all who have applied to the PSNI on both sides of the divide.

To that end I think I shall stay off this thread, the nature of it is likely to divide those who are, after all, aiming for the same goal!! Just my opinion and sorry again MBC. Once you are a cop you are a member of one family

MustBeCrazy

TSG 15 wrote: »

To that end I think I shall stay off this thread, the nature of it is likely to divide those who are, after all, aiming for the same goal!! Just my opinion and sorry again MBC. Once you are a cop you are a member of one family

Apology accepted with thanks TSG I hope I get to experience it some day. In the meantime I leave it in your capable hands

Track

And now moving on to the most important question of all.........who will be getting a call this week?! RC or non-RC..................????????:pac:

everhopefull

Oh dearie me, what a contraversial subject.
Im a bit of a peacemaker and tent to sit on the fance in most situations and this is no different...actually i dont sit on the fence, its more that i totally understand both sides.

I have many non RC friends who have been turned down over the years...so i really understand their frustrations and if the shoe were on the other foot i would feel the same too. (I have to say though i have gotten frustrated in the past when 1 said friend tried once to get through and when they didnt blamed it on the fact they were'nt RC and subsequently stopped trying and now "hate" the whole process) Anyways rant over. :P

But seriously it must be a good thing for a police force to represent the community it is protecting? Maybe its not the best way to go about evening out the numbers but i honestly cant think of any other way.

I've read other posts that compare the PSNI to other forces in the UK...we are in a unique situation here in N.Ireland and sometimes this requires unique processes.

Wowww, thats the closest thing to an essay i've written in ages!!:pac::eek::rolleyes:

everhopefull

everhopefull wrote: »

(I have to say though i have gotten frustrated in the past when 1 said friend tried once to get through and when they didnt blamed it on the fact they were'nt RC and subsequently stopped trying and now "hate" the whole process)

I've got to agree with you there, I think it has became a bit of an easy excuse sometimes for not getting through if you are non RC, but I suppose if you did get as far as the 50:50 stage and weren't succesfull it probably would automatically be the one and only reason to come to mind.

Even if they did it on a percentage basis would soften the blow I think, say if 30% of the applicants were RC and 70% were non RC then the positions were given accordingly. I know it would take far longer for them to reach the quota and probably wouldn't work out right anyways but never mind me just thinking of better times!

Anyways, were stuck with it till 2010 atleast so there's no point getting hot under the collar about, just grin and bear it...it's just more motivation really for me to do the best I can and just try to get through!

Track

If it's any consolation, there are many RCs that are not in this intake yet with much (up to twice) higher merits than some RCs that have been accepted into this campaign intake. What's my point? Being in the top 220 RC merit catagory does not guarantee a place within the psni. There seems to be many lower merits that have leap frogged over higher merits due to vetting. I'm not sure which is more controversial, religion or vetting?! PEACE!:D