Harsh treatment in the Emergency Services forum

Eru

Deleted User wrote: »

wouldn't it be better to make it private. such a small % of boards users fall into the "serving, have served or want to serve" category that it would be easy to deal with requests for access..

Why though? were not lepers you know. We can have a public section just like Military does, or Motors. We just ask that you threat the section for what it is. A section for and about the subject, not a place to moan and complain about the subject then complain when we dont worship you for it.

Have a look at the es forum now. Most of the threads are against es not about it and looking for legal advise, Gardai are actually not allowed give advise nor is it a desire of ours to help someone avoid prosecution. Curious about some aspect? Ask away by all means but seriously, theres no logic in entering an es forum and posting accusations. You yourself have posted back to me about the body in the canal section where you are putting words in my mouth. At no stage did I accuse the OP of anything. He asked, I answered, simple but you took my answer as an accusation. Why?

TheNog

No need for it to be private as it would essentially be hidden from the general view. It would quickly become an old and stale forum with the same posters and nothing new coming into the forum.

Boston

DeVore wrote: »

What is the purpose of the forum? If its to service complaints about the copper who smacked your mate down the road, then we have set it up wrong.

I thought its purpose was to allow interaction between members and recruits and potential recruits. I dont believe we should be a complaints department for the cops. No one here is authorised to speak for them and its always going to descend into trouble, plus its strangling the other voluntary services talking there it seems.

Thoughts?

Should we give non-police their own forum? Split it out by service?

DeV.

The nog: Have a look at the LGB Forum and how its run. Here's another forum which is tightly controlled and potentially subject to alot of abuse from the wider boards.ie community, however we manage to see very little trolling or un -owards behaviour simply because of a long established way of dealing with things. You say the ES forum isn't a complaint forum, yet you tolerate complaints. They may all be genuine but a lot are presented very offensively which in turn irritates the natives to such a degree that when people like Des come along they get abused. You need to make it clear that the forum isn't for complaints but you'll tolerate a level of debate. That level of debate will eventually be arrived at in the form of a natural balance.

Offy

Deleted User wrote: »

wouldn't it be better to make it private. such a small % of boards users fall into the "serving, have served or want to serve" category that it would be easy to deal with requests for access..

I agree Dev, I did not read the charter (to be honest I dont read every charter, simply dont that that much time to spare, sry) so I thought ES was about issues to do with ES, my apologies to all for breaking the rules. If its private that sort of mistake wont happen again to any member of boards.
Maybe one forum for members working in ES about their working life/conditions/etc. and another for non-ES professionals about issues concerning ES and the public?

Eru

Eru wrote: »

Have a look at the es forum now. Most of the threads are against es not about it and looking for legal advise, Gardai are actually not allowed give advise nor is it a desire of ours to help someone avoid prosecution.

well i have one story where we were broken into while in the house and i'd like to ask some questions about it. but i'd probably get banned for being "against es".. the forum just seems like a closed shop.

TheNog wrote: »

No need for it to be private as it would essentially be hidden from the general view. It would quickly become an old and stale forum with the same posters and nothing new coming into the forum.

that's true also..

Offy

Offy wrote: »

I agree Dev, I did not read the charter (to be honest I dont read every charter, simply dont that that much time to spare, sry) so I thought ES was about issues to do with ES

i pretty much thought the very same thing till very recently... most boardsies would.

tallaght01

It seems that people are not allowed to post about their personal situations. That makes sense.

People should be allowed to post their negative opinions about the emergency services, if it's done civilly. Similarly, people don't have to reply to those threads. If they do, they should reply civilly.

I don't see why that's such an issue.

A lot of people perceive the gardai to be rude (I know it's not a garda forum, but that's really all that posts in there nowadays). But used in the right way, this could be good PR for the cops.

Civil responses to questions, with no nastiness tolerated on either side of the fence could foster better relations between the gardai and the public.

It's a bit cheesy to say, but the ES forum shouldn't be seen as a headache. It should be seen as something potentially very positive.
At the moment, it probably perpetuates the public's negative view of the gardai, but there's signs that things could be improving

Eru

Deleted User wrote: »

well i have one story where we were broken into while in the house and i'd like to ask some questions about it. but i'd probably get banned for being "against es".. the forum just seems like a closed shop.

I can guarantee that if you ask your question in a clear non confrontation manner it will get answered in the same manner but if your the victim of crime your going to have questions. Ask away but if the questions are accusations then yes, we will get thick as its not a complaints forum nor am I employed as a PR man for AGS. This is what I do off duty, which clearly makes me insane. :P

well, if you against es then you shouldnt be posting in the es section. that would seem obvious enough. Im betting homophobic dicks wouldnt last 5 seconds in the lbs section

Eru

tallaght01 wrote: »

It seems that people are not allowed to post about their personal situations. That makes sense.

People should be allowed to post their negative opinions about the emergency services, if it's done civilly. Similarly, people don't have to reply to those threads. If they do, they should reply civilly.

I don't see why that's such an issue.

A lot of people perceive the gardai to be rude (I know it's not a garda forum, but that's really all that posts in there nowadays). But used in the right way, this could be good PR for the cops.

Civil responses to questions, with no nastiness tolerated on either side of the fence could foster better relations between the gardai and the public.

It's a bit cheesy to say, but the ES forum shouldn't be seen as a headache. It should be seen as something potentially very positive.
At the moment, it probably perpetuates the public's negative view of the gardai, but there's signs that things could be improving

But thats not what the es section is for at all. Its nothing to do with complaints or pr for the Gardai.

Im off duty for gods sake, I go to es to chat with colleagues not foster relations, answer questions or give free legal lectures.
thats not the purpose at all. Simple reality, if your not es staff you have little reason to be on the es section other than maybe to clarify something.

Again, if your not military or interested in the military dont be in the military section. If your homophobic stay out of lbs section. Dont have a car? Why be in motors then. The list goes on and on. Want to complain about Gardai? Take it to a suitable area because it has nothing to do with the es forum

Boston

tallaght01 wrote: »

People should be allowed to post their negative opinions about the emergency services, if it's done civilly. Similarly, people don't have to reply to those threads. If they do, they should reply civilly.

Thats far from a given. You can't express outright negative views towards Muslims on the Islam forum or Gays on the LGBT forum ect. The principle is simple, the posters shouldn't have to defend themselves in their own back yard.

That said if someone shows a genuine interest in debating the negative view points then they should be allowed some freedom to do so.

It's a bit cheesy to say, but the ES forum shouldn't be seen as a headache. It should be seen as something potentially very positive.
At the moment, it probably perpetuates the public's negative view of the gardai, but there's signs that things could be improving

Very dangerous road to go down. The ES has no official link to any service and is not representative on any service. You start creating those links it won't be long before outsider start exerting influence over parts of boards.ie.

Eru

Eru wrote: »

well, if you against es then you shouldnt be posting in the es section. that would seem obvious enough.

would i be right in saying that the problem arises directly from; most boardsies thinking the forum is a place to voice issues and not realising the forum is not a place for this. a seperate sub-board where posters could discuss personal experiences would in my opinion be quite good.. it's then irrelevant if it's anti-es and would take away some of the unwanted posting in the main es forum.

as of now, there isn't one forum on boards, as far as i know off, where i can discuss my break in and how badly it was handled by the gardai. i'm not anti-gardai but i'd still like to have somewhere to discuss the case if you know what i mean.. just like many other posters would have their own personal experiences to discuss. that's where a sub-forum could come in.

maybe i'm way of the mark here?

tallaght01

I think if you're going to play the off duty card, then don't have the fact that you're a copper stamped all over your avatar etc. I don't know why the cops always have to have the fact that they're cops mentioned in their usenames, avatars, taglines, sigs etc.

It's just a job.

I think people should be allowed comment on the ES in a public forum. You have your closed gardai forums.

What if someone wanted to talk about trust in the the gardai after the Donegal craziness. Or what if someone doesn't feel it's right that gardai are getting pepper spray?

I think banning issues that relate to, say, concerns about civil liberties issues or trust issues will look very bad.

I think if you're going to make such a big thing about being a copper, then PR is an issue, whether you want it to be or not.

javaboy

Boston wrote: »

The principle is simple, the posters shouldn't have to defend themselves in their own back yard.

But it's not their own "back yard". It's a forum where the topic is Emergency Services. It's not a forum for people in the Emergency Services.

It says as much in the charter.

tallaght01

Boston wrote: »

Thats far from a given. You can't express outright negative views towards Muslims on the Islam forum or Gays on the LGBT forum ect. The principle is simple, the posters shouldn't have to defend themselves in their own back yard.

.

I don't thik it's accurate to compare two polarised minority groups that are often discriminated against in Ireland, to a group who hold a good degree of power AND, more importantly significant public accountability.

People come onto the bio+med forum telling us that alternative medicine is the business etc, and that our western model is rubbish. That's fine. No abuse = no drama.

Debate is healthy.

Eru

It would appear no one knows what the es forum is for.

Your break in, you see this is a problem. Its not my job to explain how why where or when something was or was not done and neither should I be obluged to do so off duty of have to worry abour pr when posting on a bloody internet forum off duty.

And by starting something "How badly it was handled" when your not an expert in the field and dont actually know how it should be handled is plain insulting and of course if going to make people defensive. As Boston said, I shouldnt have to defend myself in my own back yard. Instead you could ask why was A done or not done. Thats not an accusation, its a question from someone seeking understanding of what happened.

Now, do you see why we get defensive? Because were constantly being attacked.

tallaght, why do you want to post in the es section anyway? Whats the need to attack the police and es staff all the time? Why cant I have any username I want and how does that oblige me to pr and defend my occupation anyway?


And yes, it was made for es personel to chat with eachother not about emergency services.

Boston

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't thik it's accurate to compare two polarised minority groups that are often discriminated against in Ireland, to a group who hold a good degree of power AND, more importantly significant public accountability.

People come onto the bio+med forum telling us that alternative medicine is the business etc, and that our western model is rubbish. That's fine. No abuse = no drama.

Debate is healthy.

Posters on the ES forum aren't publicly accountable, The problem is the attitude they are. People don't go onto ES and attack the profession but rather they attack individual employees. I doubt you'd have much time for the same on Bio+med.

javaboy

Eru wrote: »

And yes, it was made for es personel to chat with eachother not about emergency services.

ES Charter wrote:

This forum is for the discussion of emergency services in general and is open to all posters, whether they are serving / former members of an emergency service, prospective members or just have an interest.

What was that you were saying about nobody knowing what the ES forum is for?

Paulzx

As a regular user of the ES forum who is a member of the ES but not a Garda I'm going to try and give an informed but neutral opinion on the direction the forum seems to have gone.

I think its a given that most of the problem threads are connected to garda issues. Obviously this occurs sometimes because of chip on the shoulder issues of posters. This however is not always the case and genuine questions from non gardai do arise.

Garda posters understandably at times get a pain in their ass responding to trolling anti garda posts and this in my opinion can sometimes lead to them having a lack of tolerance for more genuine questions. All the enquiries get lumped in together.

This obviously is unfair on genuine posters asking real questions but i can understand why it happens.

I think if you feel someones pissing you off the report function must be used more rather than reacting. We must show tolerance to people posting and allow the mods to sort out the rubbish.

I myself have a low tolerance to the bulls**tters but i tend to ignore it.

Anyone that has a ban at the moment just serve it out. Tough **** i suppose:D


Lets try and get things back on track.
I would not support closing off the forum and want it kept as accessible as possible to all

tallaght01

Boston wrote: »

Posters on the ES forum aren't publicly accountable, The problem is the attitude they are. People don't go onto ES and attack the profession but rather they attack individual employees. I doubt you'd have much time for the same on Bio+med.

They have a degree of public accountability when they say "I am a garda, and here's my opinion of the garda issue you're asking about". Even if it's not a legal accountability, they're still representing the gardai to an extent. Particularly in the eyes of the public. Don't wanna do that? Don't have garda stuff all over your avatar.

I don't think "i met a garda last night and he was a knob" posts should be tolerated. But, to the same extent, we shouldn't filter public opinion to stop the gardai from stepping out of line.

We tolerate a lot in bio+med. I would feel we were doing the community a disservice if we attempted to censor opinion. Usually, if it's not abusive, it's not porn, and it doesn't involve medical advice, we'll allow it :P

at the end of the day, i think there should be a place on boards.ie to discuss bad experiences or issues with the emergency services. yes ye serve the public, but we pay your wages to serve and like any other profession, ye are open to criticism.

i'd like to see a sub-forum where discussions could take place and if es staff don't like what they see, they don't have to post.. it's quite an authoritarian approach if such discussions can't take place.

Offy

Would it be possible of non ES professionals to have a section where they can discuss issues, debate policies and offer suggestions without getting banned? After all if someone has a negative experience they might simply want to highlight to others what does work and what doesnt work. You cant do that at present in ES so why not set up a forum that members (regardless of profession) can ask for advice, offer suggestions and criticise what they perceive as errors in the system?
If this was the open source forum and a member criticised some code or software house for releasing rubbish code with infinite loops in it would they be banned? No they would simply let others decide weather or not they should use the software/code. If I downloaded some code and it had an infinite loop Id criticise the code, I dont think I'd get banned for it though. If it doesnt work it doesnt work.

Boston

tallaght01 wrote: »

They have a degree of public accountability when they say "I am a garda, and here's my opinion of the garda issue you're asking about". Even if it's not a legal accountability, they're still representing the gardai to an extent. Particularly in the eyes of the public. Don't wanna do that? Don't have garda stuff all over your avatar.

I don't think "i met a garda last night and he was a knob" posts should be tolerated. But, to the same extent, we shouldn't filter public opinion to stop the gardai from stepping out of line.

We tolerate a lot in bio+med. I would feel we were doing the community a disservice if we attempted to censor opinion. Usually, if it's not abusive, it's not porn, and it doesn't involve medical advice, we'll allow it :P

As a doctor you're also publicly accountable but how accountable is your online persona, and is it right at all to hold you accountable for the actions of other doctors? You say a lot is tolerated on Bio+med, this is true. But on ES more is tolerated by the moderators then the natives seem willing to put up with.

tallaght01

Boston wrote: »

As a doctor you're also publicly accountable but how accountable is your online persona, and is it right at all to hold you accountable for the actions of other doctors? You say a lot is tolerated on Bio+med, this is true. But on ES more is tolerated by the moderators then the natives seem willing to put up with.

I would be accountable if I gave bogey medical advice on a board. I don't give medical advice, and I don't think the gardai should give garda advice.

But when I give my opinion on a healthcare issue, or on something like vaccination, in the bio+med forum people do look at that information differently because I'm a doctor. Same with the gardai, and with loads of other professions.

Doesn't mean the gardai have undue influence. It's just a reality that you have to deal with.

Paulzx

Deleted User wrote: »

, but we pay your wages

With all due respect comments like that are what start half the arguements

Eru

tallaght01 wrote: »

I would be accountable if I gave bogey medical advice on a board. I don't give medical advice, and I don't think the gardai should give garda advice.

But when I give my opinion on a healthcare issue, or on something like vaccination, in the bio+med forum people do look at that information differently because I'm a doctor. Same with the gardai, and with loads of other professions.

Doesn't mean the gardai have undue influence. It's just a reality that you have to deal with.

But with respect, we dont want to be giving that advise. Its people constantly coming along and asking thats the problem because when we dont answer we end up with threads like this one.

I agree, lets stop people from asking Gardai for advise, hip hip hooray. I have a question, why does it bother you so much what goes on in the es forum? Your not es and you dont appear to have an specific problem with Gardai so whats with the chip and if I went to meds and constantly gave out about doctors that you dont know nor have anything to do with, how long would it be before you were pissed off?

javaboy wrote: »

What was that you were saying about nobody knowing what the ES forum is for?

Constructive. Actually what you have posted is a section of the charter posted by Civ Def, a moderator. What I said was the es forum was created for a certain purpose. The fact that the site was created by PSNI prior to Civ def even being a user of the site nevermind a mod or making the charter negates your arguement that the charter proves all. PSNI had a reason for starting the site and it wasnt for people to complain about the police.

Tallaght pointed out that theres sites for police to talk but likewise theres copwatch, Indymedia and a hundred of anti police sites. All were asking for is a little corner of Boards where we can talk to other es personel outside of the Gardai but no, evidently thats too much.


And for the last time because its exactly what annoys us, we pay tax as well and everyone pays everyones wages. I won a pc using Windows so can I know tell Bill Gates what to do? Cmon, stop and think before posting that rubbish. )ooops, not directed at you java)

javaboy

Eru wrote: »

Constructive. Actually what you have posted is a section of the charter posted by Civ Def, a moderator. What I said was the es forum was created for a certain purpose. The fact that the site was created by PSNI prior to Civ def even being a user of the site nevermind a mod or making the charter negates your arguement that the charter proves all. PSNI had a reason for starting the site and it wasnt for people to complain about the police.

I'm not suggesting it be a place for people to complain about the police at all. But I think the charter shows that it is also not a place exclusively for ES personnel. If it was supposed to be originally when PSNI had it set up, it should have been made a private forum.

All were asking for is a little corner of Boards where we can talk to other es personel outside of the Gardai but no, evidently thats too much.

Not being a smartass here btw but if you want that and I can understand why you would, why not ask for a private forum? That's what they're there for.

tallaght01

Eru wrote: »

But with respect, we dont want to be giving that advise. Its people constantly coming along and asking thats the problem because when we dont answer we end up with threads like this one.

I agree, lets stop people from asking Gardai for advise, hip hip hooray. I have a question, why does it bother you so much what goes on in the es forum? Your not es and you dont appear to have an specific problem with Gardai so whats with the chip and if I went to meds and constantly gave out about doctors that you dont know nor have anything to do with, how long would it be before you were pissed off?



)

I don't think you SHOULD be allowed give advice. Threads that ask for it should be locked. No reason to be rude to people. Just report the post, and don't worry about it.

The goings on in the ES forums bothers me because, as a doc who's done a lot of A+E/ICU, I felt initially it would be a great idea to have an ES thread. It meant people like me could have lots of interaction with other pre-hospital guys.
I felt it could be useful in both directions.
But, from my experience there, I would never start a thread in there again. Way too unfriendly.

I have a look in there every so often, as I'm entitled to do. And, sadly, I see a lot of rudeness.


if you went to bio+med and gave out about random docs, the guys would let me know, and I'd lock the thread.

But if someone started a thread saying "I'm pretty annoyed at the psychiatrist who sectioned my aunt. I don't think doctors should have those kinds of powers", I'd take it as a potentially interesting discussion, and a good way to interface with the public.

therecklessone

Eru wrote: »

Constructive. Actually what you have posted is a section of the charter posted by Civ Def, a moderator. What I said was the es forum was created for a certain purpose. The fact that the site was created by PSNI prior to Civ def even being a user of the site nevermind a mod or making the charter negates your arguement that the charter proves all. PSNI had a reason for starting the site and it wasnt for people to complain about the police.

psni didn't create any forum, he did like most users do and requested the creation of a forum, originally for policing, that then evolved into an Emergency Services particularly when an Admin said he would support such a forum (Vexorg)

civdef is a member of boards since 2004, psni a member since 2006, the ES forum was started in Dec 2007.

It doesn't matter a jot what reason psni had for requesting the forum, the people tasked with moderation of the forum by the Admins (the people who own and run this site) are responsible for creating a forum charter. civdef did exactly that, and outlined the purpose of the forum and the framework within which discussion could take place.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184603

Vexorg wrote:

The only issue I have is with having some experienced mods performing their fine janatioral duties. I will ask CivDef and see if we cant find one or 2 more to assist.

No offence to PSNI, I would be happy to have you co mod, but a couple of experienced guys will help set the tone and keep things on track.

I think it's fair to say the forum charter is of greater significance than eru's desire to have a watercooler for Gardaí to have a natter around.

Eru

Therecklessone,
You seem confused. You do realise I didnt start this thread dont you? I was just clarifying that the forum was started based on psn's idea. No more or less.

If the ES forum is a complaints department where people can complain about various es staff and areas then so be it but is it? the mods say its not for that but yet people are complaining there and then complaining when they are not entertained. Whats it too be?

The purpose and function of the ES forum needs to be clarified properly so people can decide whats ok to post and whats not. Then people can decide if its the place for them or not. I imple fail to see why you would go somewhere, make a complaint and expect people that your complaining about to respond in anything other than annoyance. Then come here and complain that your complaint wasnt met the way you wanted.

Boston

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't think you SHOULD be allowed give advice. Threads that ask for it should be locked. No reason to be rude to people. Just report the post, and 't worry about it.

Agreed. Though I would say general advice should be allowed but advice relating to personal experience shouldn't be allowed. In this way you can allow advise about what Garda training is like or the best way to get in contact with garda officers ect while limiting threads relating to "Me mate got nicked last night".

McCrack

I'm after reading over this thread and the general sentimant I agree with. My comments here only relate to the Garda cleared on assault technicality thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055499672

This thread is the only thread in the ES that I have had any real input in. I'm not a member of the ES. I have a legal background as anybody can see from reading my previous postings.
As a consequence of my input into this thread I was banned which to me was unfair and after reading many posts on this thread it seems I'm not alone in this thought.

I want to state here that I've no hidden agenda and I most definitely wasnt trolling in that thread as some accused me of. I'm a believer in open constructive debate/argument/criticism. It seems from that thread that some regular ES posters are incapable of grasping these. The responses by certain regular ES posters (and the back-slappers) to the OP of that thread and others who had legitimate bona fide Questions/comments/criticisms was completely out of order and unwarranted. Anybody with a neutral mind reading that thread will see what I'm talking about.

If Garda ES people want an internet discussion solely for their use then boards is not the correct place. The station canteen would be a suitable venue for that.

Eru

McCrack wrote: »

If Garda ES people want an internet discussion solely for their use then boards is not the correct place. The station canteen would be a suitable venue for that.

Likewise, if people want to Garda bash and make allegations of protection amongst Garda personel I siggest the ES forum is not the best place for it, in fact Indymedia and Copwatch is probable your best bet.

K-9

McCrack wrote: »

I want to state here that I've no hidden agenda and I most definitely wasnt trolling in that thread as some accused me of. I'm a believer in open constructive debate/argument/criticism. It seems from that thread that some regular ES posters are incapable of grasping these. The responses by certain regular ES posters (and the back-slappers) to the OP of that thread and others who had legitimate bona fide Questions/comments/criticisms was completely out of order and unwarranted. Anybody with a neutral mind reading that thread will see what I'm talking about.

Eru wrote: »

Likewise, if people want to Garda bash and make allegations of protection amongst Garda personel I siggest the ES forum is not the best place for it, in fact Indymedia and Copwatch is probable your best bet.

Therein lies the problem. I don't think that thread was Garda bashing or protectionism.

Des just wanted an answer to a question. I think ES would be a relevant forum to ask what to do in that situation.

McCrack

Eru wrote: »

Likewise, if people want to Garda bash and make allegations of protection amongst Garda personel I siggest the ES forum is not the best place for it, in fact Indymedia and Copwatch is probable your best bet.

I agree and I know the type of posts youre talking about, I've seen them on ES, Motors and After Hours but I can only relate my comments to that particular thread that I got banned from and the responses certain regular ES posters said to legitimate and honest Q's. That was my problem and a lot of others too.

therecklessone

Eru wrote: »

Therecklessone,
You seem confused. You do realise I didnt start this thread dont you? I was just clarifying that the forum was started based on psn's idea. No more or less.

I'm aware you didn't start the thread, I'm not confused, and that's not what you were doing.

psni had a reason for requesting the forum, but the rules which govern behaviour on the forum were formulated by the mods, and are the only guide as to what the forum should be about, and how users should behave there.

That's a point I think you've yet to grasp...there is a forum charter, which you are supposed to abide by. If you see examples of the charter being breached, then bring that to a mods attention and let them deal with it. Don't deal with it yourself on-thread, and definitely do not act contrary to the charter yourself.

If you and other users of the forum are unhappy with how it is developing, then engage with the mods and try to get things changed. I understand you guys feels frustrated at times, but that doesn't excuse behaviour contrary to the forum charter. You don't get to decide what is acceptable, the moderators do.

DeVore

Firsly, McCrack is no troll. We are not talking about protecting trolls we are talking about what reasonable limits we want to put on the ES forum.

The problem is that NO ONE is approaching this with a neutral mind.
People with an "issue" they want to raise tend to already have a point of view on the topic.

The police posters are clearly utterly fed up of getting the "all cops are bastards" line. I can understand that. Its just as frustrating as when people claim all mods are too. After a while an embattled mindset will emerge and the temptation to lash out back must be hard to resist, especially on an internet forum.

Change will have to be both directions because in part the forum is a place where public and professionals can interact as well as just those who are in the profession. But much like the Islam forum, I dont see why they should have to defend themselves from "yer all a bunch of ****" type threads.

McCrack, Eru and Metman all did their share in taking that thread off track. All should have been temp-banned when they didnt heed the mods warning and Metman longer then the others imho.

One lesson to be learned is that flash point threads like that should be locked sooner rather then later.

I'll have a longer think about where we draw the line on requests for "clarification" from the public to the professionals.

DeV.

Overheal

Eru, if you want a forum to talk with other Professionals, create a request for a Private Forum. You can Even call it Eru's Backyard if you want. We can have a public forum for the discussion of Emergency Services, and your private forum for discussions between Emergency Services.

I'm just a bit troubled that you do seem to treat the forum like its your personal property (your backyard); an Attitude I have failed to see anywhere else on boards to the vast extent. Strictly speaking the forum is on loan to us the public by the private owners of Boards.ie Ltd.

Another thing that doesn't sound right is Offy getting banned (indefinitely??) for one post. You don't even see that happen in Legal Discussion, where its made quite blatant that it is not a forum for Legal Advice.

Evidently, the forum needs some kind of re-structuring. It needs to be clear that the forum is not a place to seek Advice, but is a place for general discussion about the emergency services (eg. "I can't comment on your particular incident but the police typically bla bla bla so maybe something else was going on"). Take formatting queues from the LD Board, in my humble opinion.

Also when a poster who wants to wear the Cop Hat (off duty :rolleyes:) and at the sametime be an Asshat what do we get? An Ass Cop, which does nothing to help people think any better of the Gardai, or the Police or whatever you call yourselves, whether you are officially representing the gardai or not - you are still a walking talking example of the personalities they employ. Just some food for thought.

I can understand the defensive attitude, the people you serve don't make things easy, but on here you should leave it to the mods. Report the posts and walk away from the keyboard, the backseat modding and trollbashing does more harm than good.

DeVore

Overheal, I made that point on this page of the other thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055506470&page=2


Re: Members of the forum:
TheNog is the mod here, he's the "police" in a sense and you need to assist him to locate issues that need his attention. I've dealt with that issue on that thread.

On this thread we need to thrash out what is and isnt allowable on the ES forum.

I think that requests for comments on "personal stories" are likely to descend and should be met with a swift "we are not the public face of the GS... direct your questions to the Ombudsman" and locked.

Questions about "how does this work" or "why does X have to happen before Y" should be allowed.

In the instance of the Garda in Galway, the question was legitimate enough and those who ARE Gardai should have had the sense to either stay neutral or stay out. As soon as the thread switched from information into mud-slinging, it should have been locked.

I understand and can appreicate that the Gardai here dont want to be seen as the "spokespeople" for AGS.... but by that very token you need to be less defensive when AGS are criticised. You cant have it both ways, you are either individuals or you are representatives.

DeV.

Overheal

DeVore wrote: »

Overheal, I made that point on this page of the other thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055506470&page=2

Hadn't read that thread at time of posting. Cheers.

Eru

Overheal wrote: »

Eru, if you want a forum to talk with other Professionals, create a request for a Private Forum. You can Even call it Eru's Backyard if you want. We can have a public forum for the discussion of Emergency Services, and your private forum for discussions between Emergency Services.

I dont think I will call it that.

Overheal wrote: »

Also when a poster who wants to wear the Cop Hat (off duty :rolleyes:) and at the sametime be an Asshat what do we get? An Ass Cop, which does nothing to help people think any better of the Gardai, or the Police or whatever you call yourselves, whether you are officially representing the gardai or not - you are still a walking talking example of the personalities they employ. Just some food for thought..

I dont understand your point. I should be nice to people because ultimately they see me as a Garda 24/7 or have I missed the mark? Again, Im not the Garda PR man.

Overheal wrote: »

I can understand the defensive attitude, the people you serve don't make things easy, but on here you should leave it to the mods. Report the posts and walk away from the keyboard, the backseat modding and trollbashing does more harm than good.

I have agreed to this.

Overheal wrote: »

Another thing that doesn't sound right is Offy getting banned (indefinitely??) for one post. You don't even see that happen in Legal Discussion, where its made quite blatant that it is not a forum for Legal Advice.

well I have been banned more from ES than Legal as well so there ya go. Did you read the post? It was insane and totally trolling however you shouldnt question the mods decisions.

parsi

DeVore wrote: »

I think that requests for comments on "personal stories" are likely to descend and should be met with a swift "we are not the public face of the GS... direct your questions to the Ombudsman" and locked.

...

Questions about "how does this work" or "why does X have to happen before Y" should be allowed.




DeV.

I agree.

It shouldn't be a forum for "Guard No. 234d stole my crisps" - that leads to anarchy, muppetry, gob****ery and pure trolling.

It should be a forum to discuss issues and maybe get clarity as to the reasoning behind general policy decisions or methodology. Folk should be able to ask a constructive "Why ?" without getting a dismissive "'Cos, I'm a guard and that's an anti-guard question so feck off" type reply.

The Guards and wannabe-Guards complain bitterly about anti-Guard threads but yet pour vitriol in response to straightforward questions.

No other public forum in boards is treated as a staffroom where outsiders need not apply, no other grouping react so defensively and arrogantly to questions that they (and not the Mods) deem unworthy.

The banking forum has plenty of helpful bank personnel who deal with criticism and also go a long way towards explaining some of the arcane workings of their banks.

Eru

Now hang on a second. Theres dozens of threads in ES that get perfectly pleasant responses and help.

Stop this 'All the ES guys are ignorant assholes' theme thats going on here. Its not true and unfair towards users that arent even here to defend themselves.

Possible, just possible some of you are being a little naive when you read threads and dont see the anti-Garda theme running through them.

parsi

Eru wrote: »

Possible, just possible some of you are being a little naive when you read threads and dont see the anti-Garda theme running through them.

It's possible, just possible that we are not so defensive that we see every query or comment as having a hidden motive.

Eru

parsi wrote: »

It's possible, just possible that we are not so defensive that we see every query or comment as having a hidden motive.

Why so defensive? Cant we all take constructrive critisism?

Now please again, look at the es section and see out of how many first page threads have the OPs recieved perfectly acceptable answers and how many have they been abused and / or banned? Your being completely unfair on members that are not here to defend themselves. Perhaps a link to this thread should be included in the es forum?

eroo

I am a regular poster on the Emergency Services forum. I'm not a member of any emergency services, but I hope to be successful in applying for An Garda Siochana in the near future.

I find the ES forum and it's members to be very welcoming(except you Eru:P). Those who are banned or fall foul of some of it's members, do so mainly because they make provocative comments designed to get a rise out of people.

I have also found the forum and it's members to be very helpful!:)

donvito99

I am also a regular enough poster in the ES forum. I use the forum to ask questions about the Gardai, post pictures, and avoid threads where I am out of my depth (eg. threads to do with weapons).

The ES forum is the majority of the time very helpfull and funny, in my opinion it would be a disaster to stop this thread now, as it has been very succesful from what I have seen from it since September/October.

The vast majority of Gardai who post are extremely nice people who know their stuff and have great stories to tell, only a few have gotten into trouble.

With regards to complaints about the Gardai they are sometimes extremely vague and this is where some Garda posters get peeed off. Also, alot of the time there is no need for these complaints to be voiced on the forum, however I do accept that it is a public forum.

I am concerned that Garda issues dominate the threads (I have little interest in other ES issues unfortunately), and this has been raised recently and ideas have arisen such as different ES branches. I would greatly encourage more non Garda threads.

In conclusion, I believe that the vast majority of posters are there for a debate and others with just a genuine interest. The forum has been over shadowed by some stupid posts and there has been some Garda protectionism.

Just my 2 cents.

Sparks

I'm guessing ES may be like Hunting in that respect - no matter how well behaved folks there are to the first 99 threads, it's how they react when the 100th comes in calling them sub-human murdering barbarians that is seen as being representative of how they react.

On the other hand, folks in Hunting (and I'd be surprised if ES was different, especially given some comments I read in there) do tend to be human - ie. arrogant, blinkered and unable to see contradictory viewpoints with equal levels of respect. It's not that they're bad people, you understand - just that humans don't actually have any success trying to do that sort of thing, in any walk of life.

Whitewater-AGS

I'm not posting in the ES section too long but overall I have enjoyed the forum. I'll be the first to admit that some threads can get very heated at times and being only human i've been sucked into some of these situations(more fool me )

I also took part in the thread which all this has come from and imho the op posted a genuine question and this question was answered by us by the end of the second page, however within that time the Garda bashing started (post 2 and 28) and I left the thread at this point and looking back at the thread now some others should have joined me. Stupidly I didnt report this or pm any mods, a practice I'll now take up, since its the best way to keep the forum running smoothly and still open to the public.

McCrack

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

I'm not posting in the ES section too long but overall I have enjoyed the forum. I'll be the first to admit that some threads can get very heated at times and being only human i've been sucked into some of these situations(more fool me )

I also took part in the thread which all this has come from and imho the op posted a genuine question and this question was answered by us by the end of the second page, however within that time the Garda bashing started (post 2 and 28) and I left the thread at this point and looking back at the thread now some others should have joined me. Stupidly I didnt report this or pm any mods, a practice I'll now take up, since its the best way to keep the forum running smoothly and still open to the public.

Yes the assistance call has gone out the cavalry are all here!

Whitewater and some others, youre missing the point of this thread. My and a lot of others issue with the thread that inspired this is with the sharp replies boardering on abuse that certain regular ES posters posted to genuine concerns/criticisms/Q's. I said it in that thread and I'll say it here again that people outside policing/courts/criminal justice often have mis-placed ideas/notions and allowances need to be made for those people. Anybody with any expertise in anything whether profession, sport, hobbies etc will encounter the 'layman' or the person not so well-informed. To ridicule that person who has honest concerns, criticisms or Q's is the height or arrogance and indeed ignorance.

Attitudes of some are the problem.

That's what I saw on that thread.

The couple of examples of trolling you mentioned can be easily dealth with by a Mod. In the circumstances of what the thread was discussing it would be inevitable that this would happen and in all I think that thread was pretty much troll and Garda bashing free save for the handful of ones out of a total of 80.

eroo

McCrack wrote: »

Attitudes of some are the problem.

That can be said for EVERY forum unfortunately, not just ES.