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Harsh treatment in the Emergency Services forum
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well, if you against es then you shouldnt be posting in the es section. that would seem obvious enough.
would i be right in saying that the problem arises directly from; most boardsies thinking the forum is a place to voice issues and not realising the forum is not a place for this. a seperate sub-board where posters could discuss personal experiences would in my opinion be quite good.. it's then irrelevant if it's anti-es and would take away some of the unwanted posting in the main es forum.
as of now, there isn't one forum on boards, as far as i know off, where i can discuss my break in and how badly it was handled by the gardai. i'm not anti-gardai but i'd still like to have somewhere to discuss the case if you know what i mean.. just like many other posters would have their own personal experiences to discuss. that's where a sub-forum could come in.
maybe i'm way of the mark here?0 -
I think if you're going to play the off duty card, then don't have the fact that you're a copper stamped all over your avatar etc. I don't know why the cops always have to have the fact that they're cops mentioned in their usenames, avatars, taglines, sigs etc.
It's just a job.
I think people should be allowed comment on the ES in a public forum. You have your closed gardai forums.
What if someone wanted to talk about trust in the the gardai after the Donegal craziness. Or what if someone doesn't feel it's right that gardai are getting pepper spray?
I think banning issues that relate to, say, concerns about civil liberties issues or trust issues will look very bad.
I think if you're going to make such a big thing about being a copper, then PR is an issue, whether you want it to be or not.0 -
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Thats far from a given. You can't express outright negative views towards Muslims on the Islam forum or Gays on the LGBT forum ect. The principle is simple, the posters shouldn't have to defend themselves in their own back yard.
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I don't thik it's accurate to compare two polarised minority groups that are often discriminated against in Ireland, to a group who hold a good degree of power AND, more importantly significant public accountability.
People come onto the bio+med forum telling us that alternative medicine is the business etc, and that our western model is rubbish. That's fine. No abuse = no drama.
Debate is healthy.0 -
It would appear no one knows what the es forum is for.
Your break in, you see this is a problem. Its not my job to explain how why where or when something was or was not done and neither should I be obluged to do so off duty of have to worry abour pr when posting on a bloody internet forum off duty.
And by starting something "How badly it was handled" when your not an expert in the field and dont actually know how it should be handled is plain insulting and of course if going to make people defensive. As Boston said, I shouldnt have to defend myself in my own back yard. Instead you could ask why was A done or not done. Thats not an accusation, its a question from someone seeking understanding of what happened.
Now, do you see why we get defensive? Because were constantly being attacked.
tallaght, why do you want to post in the es section anyway? Whats the need to attack the police and es staff all the time? Why cant I have any username I want and how does that oblige me to pr and defend my occupation anyway?
And yes, it was made for es personel to chat with eachother not about emergency services.0 -
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tallaght01 wrote: »I don't thik it's accurate to compare two polarised minority groups that are often discriminated against in Ireland, to a group who hold a good degree of power AND, more importantly significant public accountability.
People come onto the bio+med forum telling us that alternative medicine is the business etc, and that our western model is rubbish. That's fine. No abuse = no drama.
Debate is healthy.
Posters on the ES forum aren't publicly accountable, The problem is the attitude they are. People don't go onto ES and attack the profession but rather they attack individual employees. I doubt you'd have much time for the same on Bio+med.0 -
And yes, it was made for es personel to chat with eachother not about emergency services.ES Charter wrote:This forum is for the discussion of emergency services in general and is open to all posters, whether they are serving / former members of an emergency service, prospective members or just have an interest.
What was that you were saying about nobody knowing what the ES forum is for?0 -
As a regular user of the ES forum who is a member of the ES but not a Garda I'm going to try and give an informed but neutral opinion on the direction the forum seems to have gone.
I think its a given that most of the problem threads are connected to garda issues. Obviously this occurs sometimes because of chip on the shoulder issues of posters. This however is not always the case and genuine questions from non gardai do arise.
Garda posters understandably at times get a pain in their ass responding to trolling anti garda posts and this in my opinion can sometimes lead to them having a lack of tolerance for more genuine questions. All the enquiries get lumped in together.
This obviously is unfair on genuine posters asking real questions but i can understand why it happens.
I think if you feel someones pissing you off the report function must be used more rather than reacting. We must show tolerance to people posting and allow the mods to sort out the rubbish.
I myself have a low tolerance to the bulls**tters but i tend to ignore it.
Anyone that has a ban at the moment just serve it out. Tough **** i suppose:D
Lets try and get things back on track.
I would not support closing off the forum and want it kept as accessible as possible to all0 -
Posters on the ES forum aren't publicly accountable, The problem is the attitude they are. People don't go onto ES and attack the profession but rather they attack individual employees. I doubt you'd have much time for the same on Bio+med.
They have a degree of public accountability when they say "I am a garda, and here's my opinion of the garda issue you're asking about". Even if it's not a legal accountability, they're still representing the gardai to an extent. Particularly in the eyes of the public. Don't wanna do that? Don't have garda stuff all over your avatar.
I don't think "i met a garda last night and he was a knob" posts should be tolerated. But, to the same extent, we shouldn't filter public opinion to stop the gardai from stepping out of line.
We tolerate a lot in bio+med. I would feel we were doing the community a disservice if we attempted to censor opinion. Usually, if it's not abusive, it's not porn, and it doesn't involve medical advice, we'll allow it :P0 -
at the end of the day, i think there should be a place on boards.ie to discuss bad experiences or issues with the emergency services. yes ye serve the public, but we pay your wages to serve and like any other profession, ye are open to criticism.
i'd like to see a sub-forum where discussions could take place and if es staff don't like what they see, they don't have to post.. it's quite an authoritarian approach if such discussions can't take place.0 -
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Would it be possible of non ES professionals to have a section where they can discuss issues, debate policies and offer suggestions without getting banned? After all if someone has a negative experience they might simply want to highlight to others what does work and what doesnt work. You cant do that at present in ES so why not set up a forum that members (regardless of profession) can ask for advice, offer suggestions and criticise what they perceive as errors in the system?
If this was the open source forum and a member criticised some code or software house for releasing rubbish code with infinite loops in it would they be banned? No they would simply let others decide weather or not they should use the software/code. If I downloaded some code and it had an infinite loop Id criticise the code, I dont think I'd get banned for it though. If it doesnt work it doesnt work.0 -
tallaght01 wrote: »They have a degree of public accountability when they say "I am a garda, and here's my opinion of the garda issue you're asking about". Even if it's not a legal accountability, they're still representing the gardai to an extent. Particularly in the eyes of the public. Don't wanna do that? Don't have garda stuff all over your avatar.
I don't think "i met a garda last night and he was a knob" posts should be tolerated. But, to the same extent, we shouldn't filter public opinion to stop the gardai from stepping out of line.
We tolerate a lot in bio+med. I would feel we were doing the community a disservice if we attempted to censor opinion. Usually, if it's not abusive, it's not porn, and it doesn't involve medical advice, we'll allow it :P
As a doctor you're also publicly accountable but how accountable is your online persona, and is it right at all to hold you accountable for the actions of other doctors? You say a lot is tolerated on Bio+med, this is true. But on ES more is tolerated by the moderators then the natives seem willing to put up with.0 -
As a doctor you're also publicly accountable but how accountable is your online persona, and is it right at all to hold you accountable for the actions of other doctors? You say a lot is tolerated on Bio+med, this is true. But on ES more is tolerated by the moderators then the natives seem willing to put up with.
I would be accountable if I gave bogey medical advice on a board. I don't give medical advice, and I don't think the gardai should give garda advice.
But when I give my opinion on a healthcare issue, or on something like vaccination, in the bio+med forum people do look at that information differently because I'm a doctor. Same with the gardai, and with loads of other professions.
Doesn't mean the gardai have undue influence. It's just a reality that you have to deal with.0 -
Deleted User wrote: », but we pay your wages
With all due respect comments like that are what start half the arguements0 -
tallaght01 wrote: »I would be accountable if I gave bogey medical advice on a board. I don't give medical advice, and I don't think the gardai should give garda advice.
But when I give my opinion on a healthcare issue, or on something like vaccination, in the bio+med forum people do look at that information differently because I'm a doctor. Same with the gardai, and with loads of other professions.
Doesn't mean the gardai have undue influence. It's just a reality that you have to deal with.
But with respect, we dont want to be giving that advise. Its people constantly coming along and asking thats the problem because when we dont answer we end up with threads like this one.
I agree, lets stop people from asking Gardai for advise, hip hip hooray. I have a question, why does it bother you so much what goes on in the es forum? Your not es and you dont appear to have an specific problem with Gardai so whats with the chip and if I went to meds and constantly gave out about doctors that you dont know nor have anything to do with, how long would it be before you were pissed off?What was that you were saying about nobody knowing what the ES forum is for?
Constructive. Actually what you have posted is a section of the charter posted by Civ Def, a moderator. What I said was the es forum was created for a certain purpose. The fact that the site was created by PSNI prior to Civ def even being a user of the site nevermind a mod or making the charter negates your arguement that the charter proves all. PSNI had a reason for starting the site and it wasnt for people to complain about the police.
Tallaght pointed out that theres sites for police to talk but likewise theres copwatch, Indymedia and a hundred of anti police sites. All were asking for is a little corner of Boards where we can talk to other es personel outside of the Gardai but no, evidently thats too much.
And for the last time because its exactly what annoys us, we pay tax as well and everyone pays everyones wages. I won a pc using Windows so can I know tell Bill Gates what to do? Cmon, stop and think before posting that rubbish. )ooops, not directed at you java)0 -
Constructive. Actually what you have posted is a section of the charter posted by Civ Def, a moderator. What I said was the es forum was created for a certain purpose. The fact that the site was created by PSNI prior to Civ def even being a user of the site nevermind a mod or making the charter negates your arguement that the charter proves all. PSNI had a reason for starting the site and it wasnt for people to complain about the police.
I'm not suggesting it be a place for people to complain about the police at all. But I think the charter shows that it is also not a place exclusively for ES personnel. If it was supposed to be originally when PSNI had it set up, it should have been made a private forum.All were asking for is a little corner of Boards where we can talk to other es personel outside of the Gardai but no, evidently thats too much.
Not being a smartass here btw but if you want that and I can understand why you would, why not ask for a private forum? That's what they're there for.0 -
I don't think you SHOULD be allowed give advice. Threads that ask for it should be locked. No reason to be rude to people. Just report the post, and don't worry about it.But with respect, we dont want to be giving that advise. Its people constantly coming along and asking thats the problem because when we dont answer we end up with threads like this one.
I agree, lets stop people from asking Gardai for advise, hip hip hooray. I have a question, why does it bother you so much what goes on in the es forum? Your not es and you dont appear to have an specific problem with Gardai so whats with the chip and if I went to meds and constantly gave out about doctors that you dont know nor have anything to do with, how long would it be before you were pissed off?
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The goings on in the ES forums bothers me because, as a doc who's done a lot of A+E/ICU, I felt initially it would be a great idea to have an ES thread. It meant people like me could have lots of interaction with other pre-hospital guys.
I felt it could be useful in both directions.
But, from my experience there, I would never start a thread in there again. Way too unfriendly.
I have a look in there every so often, as I'm entitled to do. And, sadly, I see a lot of rudeness.
if you went to bio+med and gave out about random docs, the guys would let me know, and I'd lock the thread.
But if someone started a thread saying "I'm pretty annoyed at the psychiatrist who sectioned my aunt. I don't think doctors should have those kinds of powers", I'd take it as a potentially interesting discussion, and a good way to interface with the public.0 -
Constructive. Actually what you have posted is a section of the charter posted by Civ Def, a moderator. What I said was the es forum was created for a certain purpose. The fact that the site was created by PSNI prior to Civ def even being a user of the site nevermind a mod or making the charter negates your arguement that the charter proves all. PSNI had a reason for starting the site and it wasnt for people to complain about the police.
psni didn't create any forum, he did like most users do and requested the creation of a forum, originally for policing, that then evolved into an Emergency Services particularly when an Admin said he would support such a forum (Vexorg)
civdef is a member of boards since 2004, psni a member since 2006, the ES forum was started in Dec 2007.
It doesn't matter a jot what reason psni had for requesting the forum, the people tasked with moderation of the forum by the Admins (the people who own and run this site) are responsible for creating a forum charter. civdef did exactly that, and outlined the purpose of the forum and the framework within which discussion could take place.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184603Vexorg wrote:The only issue I have is with having some experienced mods performing their fine janatioral duties. I will ask CivDef and see if we cant find one or 2 more to assist.
No offence to PSNI, I would be happy to have you co mod, but a couple of experienced guys will help set the tone and keep things on track.
I think it's fair to say the forum charter is of greater significance than eru's desire to have a watercooler for Gardaí to have a natter around.0 -
Therecklessone,
You seem confused. You do realise I didnt start this thread dont you? I was just clarifying that the forum was started based on psn's idea. No more or less.
If the ES forum is a complaints department where people can complain about various es staff and areas then so be it but is it? the mods say its not for that but yet people are complaining there and then complaining when they are not entertained. Whats it too be?
The purpose and function of the ES forum needs to be clarified properly so people can decide whats ok to post and whats not. Then people can decide if its the place for them or not. I imple fail to see why you would go somewhere, make a complaint and expect people that your complaining about to respond in anything other than annoyance. Then come here and complain that your complaint wasnt met the way you wanted.0 -
tallaght01 wrote: »I don't think you SHOULD be allowed give advice. Threads that ask for it should be locked. No reason to be rude to people. Just report the post, and 't worry about it.
Agreed. Though I would say general advice should be allowed but advice relating to personal experience shouldn't be allowed. In this way you can allow advise about what Garda training is like or the best way to get in contact with garda officers ect while limiting threads relating to "Me mate got nicked last night".0 -
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I'm after reading over this thread and the general sentimant I agree with. My comments here only relate to the Garda cleared on assault technicality thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055499672
This thread is the only thread in the ES that I have had any real input in. I'm not a member of the ES. I have a legal background as anybody can see from reading my previous postings.
As a consequence of my input into this thread I was banned which to me was unfair and after reading many posts on this thread it seems I'm not alone in this thought.
I want to state here that I've no hidden agenda and I most definitely wasnt trolling in that thread as some accused me of. I'm a believer in open constructive debate/argument/criticism. It seems from that thread that some regular ES posters are incapable of grasping these. The responses by certain regular ES posters (and the back-slappers) to the OP of that thread and others who had legitimate bona fide Questions/comments/criticisms was completely out of order and unwarranted. Anybody with a neutral mind reading that thread will see what I'm talking about.
If Garda ES people want an internet discussion solely for their use then boards is not the correct place. The station canteen would be a suitable venue for that.0 -
If Garda ES people want an internet discussion solely for their use then boards is not the correct place. The station canteen would be a suitable venue for that.
Likewise, if people want to Garda bash and make allegations of protection amongst Garda personel I siggest the ES forum is not the best place for it, in fact Indymedia and Copwatch is probable your best bet.0 -
I want to state here that I've no hidden agenda and I most definitely wasnt trolling in that thread as some accused me of. I'm a believer in open constructive debate/argument/criticism. It seems from that thread that some regular ES posters are incapable of grasping these. The responses by certain regular ES posters (and the back-slappers) to the OP of that thread and others who had legitimate bona fide Questions/comments/criticisms was completely out of order and unwarranted. Anybody with a neutral mind reading that thread will see what I'm talking about.Likewise, if people want to Garda bash and make allegations of protection amongst Garda personel I siggest the ES forum is not the best place for it, in fact Indymedia and Copwatch is probable your best bet.
Therein lies the problem. I don't think that thread was Garda bashing or protectionism.
Des just wanted an answer to a question. I think ES would be a relevant forum to ask what to do in that situation.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Likewise, if people want to Garda bash and make allegations of protection amongst Garda personel I siggest the ES forum is not the best place for it, in fact Indymedia and Copwatch is probable your best bet.
I agree and I know the type of posts youre talking about, I've seen them on ES, Motors and After Hours but I can only relate my comments to that particular thread that I got banned from and the responses certain regular ES posters said to legitimate and honest Q's. That was my problem and a lot of others too.0 -
Therecklessone,
You seem confused. You do realise I didnt start this thread dont you? I was just clarifying that the forum was started based on psn's idea. No more or less.
I'm aware you didn't start the thread, I'm not confused, and that's not what you were doing.
psni had a reason for requesting the forum, but the rules which govern behaviour on the forum were formulated by the mods, and are the only guide as to what the forum should be about, and how users should behave there.
That's a point I think you've yet to grasp...there is a forum charter, which you are supposed to abide by. If you see examples of the charter being breached, then bring that to a mods attention and let them deal with it. Don't deal with it yourself on-thread, and definitely do not act contrary to the charter yourself.
If you and other users of the forum are unhappy with how it is developing, then engage with the mods and try to get things changed. I understand you guys feels frustrated at times, but that doesn't excuse behaviour contrary to the forum charter. You don't get to decide what is acceptable, the moderators do.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 29920
Firsly, McCrack is no troll. We are not talking about protecting trolls we are talking about what reasonable limits we want to put on the ES forum.
The problem is that NO ONE is approaching this with a neutral mind.
People with an "issue" they want to raise tend to already have a point of view on the topic.
The police posters are clearly utterly fed up of getting the "all cops are bastards" line. I can understand that. Its just as frustrating as when people claim all mods are too. After a while an embattled mindset will emerge and the temptation to lash out back must be hard to resist, especially on an internet forum.
Change will have to be both directions because in part the forum is a place where public and professionals can interact as well as just those who are in the profession. But much like the Islam forum, I dont see why they should have to defend themselves from "yer all a bunch of ****" type threads.
McCrack, Eru and Metman all did their share in taking that thread off track. All should have been temp-banned when they didnt heed the mods warning and Metman longer then the others imho.
One lesson to be learned is that flash point threads like that should be locked sooner rather then later.
I'll have a longer think about where we draw the line on requests for "clarification" from the public to the professionals.
DeV.0 -
Eru, if you want a forum to talk with other Professionals, create a request for a Private Forum. You can Even call it Eru's Backyard if you want. We can have a public forum for the discussion of Emergency Services, and your private forum for discussions between Emergency Services.
I'm just a bit troubled that you do seem to treat the forum like its your personal property (your backyard); an Attitude I have failed to see anywhere else on boards to the vast extent. Strictly speaking the forum is on loan to us the public by the private owners of Boards.ie Ltd.
Another thing that doesn't sound right is Offy getting banned (indefinitely??) for one post. You don't even see that happen in Legal Discussion, where its made quite blatant that it is not a forum for Legal Advice.
Evidently, the forum needs some kind of re-structuring. It needs to be clear that the forum is not a place to seek Advice, but is a place for general discussion about the emergency services (eg. "I can't comment on your particular incident but the police typically bla bla bla so maybe something else was going on"). Take formatting queues from the LD Board, in my humble opinion.
Also when a poster who wants to wear the Cop Hat (off duty :rolleyes:) and at the sametime be an Asshat what do we get? An Ass Cop, which does nothing to help people think any better of the Gardai, or the Police or whatever you call yourselves, whether you are officially representing the gardai or not - you are still a walking talking example of the personalities they employ. Just some food for thought.
I can understand the defensive attitude, the people you serve don't make things easy, but on here you should leave it to the mods. Report the posts and walk away from the keyboard, the backseat modding and trollbashing does more harm than good.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 29920
Overheal, I made that point on this page of the other thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055506470&page=2
Re: Members of the forum:
TheNog is the mod here, he's the "police" in a sense and you need to assist him to locate issues that need his attention. I've dealt with that issue on that thread.
On this thread we need to thrash out what is and isnt allowable on the ES forum.
I think that requests for comments on "personal stories" are likely to descend and should be met with a swift "we are not the public face of the GS... direct your questions to the Ombudsman" and locked.
Questions about "how does this work" or "why does X have to happen before Y" should be allowed.
In the instance of the Garda in Galway, the question was legitimate enough and those who ARE Gardai should have had the sense to either stay neutral or stay out. As soon as the thread switched from information into mud-slinging, it should have been locked.
I understand and can appreicate that the Gardai here dont want to be seen as the "spokespeople" for AGS.... but by that very token you need to be less defensive when AGS are criticised. You cant have it both ways, you are either individuals or you are representatives.
DeV.0 -
Hadn't read that thread at time of posting. Cheers.Overheal, I made that point on this page of the other thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055506470&page=20 -
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Eru, if you want a forum to talk with other Professionals, create a request for a Private Forum. You can Even call it Eru's Backyard if you want. We can have a public forum for the discussion of Emergency Services, and your private forum for discussions between Emergency Services.
I dont think I will call it that.Also when a poster who wants to wear the Cop Hat (off duty :rolleyes:) and at the sametime be an Asshat what do we get? An Ass Cop, which does nothing to help people think any better of the Gardai, or the Police or whatever you call yourselves, whether you are officially representing the gardai or not - you are still a walking talking example of the personalities they employ. Just some food for thought..
I dont understand your point. I should be nice to people because ultimately they see me as a Garda 24/7 or have I missed the mark? Again, Im not the Garda PR man.I can understand the defensive attitude, the people you serve don't make things easy, but on here you should leave it to the mods. Report the posts and walk away from the keyboard, the backseat modding and trollbashing does more harm than good.
I have agreed to this.Another thing that doesn't sound right is Offy getting banned (indefinitely??) for one post. You don't even see that happen in Legal Discussion, where its made quite blatant that it is not a forum for Legal Advice.
well I have been banned more from ES than Legal as well so there ya go. Did you read the post? It was insane and totally trolling however you shouldnt question the mods decisions.0
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