Harsh treatment in the Emergency Services forum

parsi

DeVore wrote: »

I think that requests for comments on "personal stories" are likely to descend and should be met with a swift "we are not the public face of the GS... direct your questions to the Ombudsman" and locked.

...

Questions about "how does this work" or "why does X have to happen before Y" should be allowed.




DeV.

I agree.

It shouldn't be a forum for "Guard No. 234d stole my crisps" - that leads to anarchy, muppetry, gob****ery and pure trolling.

It should be a forum to discuss issues and maybe get clarity as to the reasoning behind general policy decisions or methodology. Folk should be able to ask a constructive "Why ?" without getting a dismissive "'Cos, I'm a guard and that's an anti-guard question so feck off" type reply.

The Guards and wannabe-Guards complain bitterly about anti-Guard threads but yet pour vitriol in response to straightforward questions.

No other public forum in boards is treated as a staffroom where outsiders need not apply, no other grouping react so defensively and arrogantly to questions that they (and not the Mods) deem unworthy.

The banking forum has plenty of helpful bank personnel who deal with criticism and also go a long way towards explaining some of the arcane workings of their banks.

Eru

Now hang on a second. Theres dozens of threads in ES that get perfectly pleasant responses and help.

Stop this 'All the ES guys are ignorant assholes' theme thats going on here. Its not true and unfair towards users that arent even here to defend themselves.

Possible, just possible some of you are being a little naive when you read threads and dont see the anti-Garda theme running through them.

parsi

Eru wrote: »

Possible, just possible some of you are being a little naive when you read threads and dont see the anti-Garda theme running through them.

It's possible, just possible that we are not so defensive that we see every query or comment as having a hidden motive.

Eru

parsi wrote: »

It's possible, just possible that we are not so defensive that we see every query or comment as having a hidden motive.

Why so defensive? Cant we all take constructrive critisism?

Now please again, look at the es section and see out of how many first page threads have the OPs recieved perfectly acceptable answers and how many have they been abused and / or banned? Your being completely unfair on members that are not here to defend themselves. Perhaps a link to this thread should be included in the es forum?

eroo

I am a regular poster on the Emergency Services forum. I'm not a member of any emergency services, but I hope to be successful in applying for An Garda Siochana in the near future.

I find the ES forum and it's members to be very welcoming(except you Eru:P). Those who are banned or fall foul of some of it's members, do so mainly because they make provocative comments designed to get a rise out of people.

I have also found the forum and it's members to be very helpful!:)

donvito99

I am also a regular enough poster in the ES forum. I use the forum to ask questions about the Gardai, post pictures, and avoid threads where I am out of my depth (eg. threads to do with weapons).

The ES forum is the majority of the time very helpfull and funny, in my opinion it would be a disaster to stop this thread now, as it has been very succesful from what I have seen from it since September/October.

The vast majority of Gardai who post are extremely nice people who know their stuff and have great stories to tell, only a few have gotten into trouble.

With regards to complaints about the Gardai they are sometimes extremely vague and this is where some Garda posters get peeed off. Also, alot of the time there is no need for these complaints to be voiced on the forum, however I do accept that it is a public forum.

I am concerned that Garda issues dominate the threads (I have little interest in other ES issues unfortunately), and this has been raised recently and ideas have arisen such as different ES branches. I would greatly encourage more non Garda threads.

In conclusion, I believe that the vast majority of posters are there for a debate and others with just a genuine interest. The forum has been over shadowed by some stupid posts and there has been some Garda protectionism.

Just my 2 cents.

Sparks

I'm guessing ES may be like Hunting in that respect - no matter how well behaved folks there are to the first 99 threads, it's how they react when the 100th comes in calling them sub-human murdering barbarians that is seen as being representative of how they react.

On the other hand, folks in Hunting (and I'd be surprised if ES was different, especially given some comments I read in there) do tend to be human - ie. arrogant, blinkered and unable to see contradictory viewpoints with equal levels of respect. It's not that they're bad people, you understand - just that humans don't actually have any success trying to do that sort of thing, in any walk of life.

Whitewater-AGS

I'm not posting in the ES section too long but overall I have enjoyed the forum. I'll be the first to admit that some threads can get very heated at times and being only human i've been sucked into some of these situations(more fool me )

I also took part in the thread which all this has come from and imho the op posted a genuine question and this question was answered by us by the end of the second page, however within that time the Garda bashing started (post 2 and 28) and I left the thread at this point and looking back at the thread now some others should have joined me. Stupidly I didnt report this or pm any mods, a practice I'll now take up, since its the best way to keep the forum running smoothly and still open to the public.

McCrack

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

I'm not posting in the ES section too long but overall I have enjoyed the forum. I'll be the first to admit that some threads can get very heated at times and being only human i've been sucked into some of these situations(more fool me )

I also took part in the thread which all this has come from and imho the op posted a genuine question and this question was answered by us by the end of the second page, however within that time the Garda bashing started (post 2 and 28) and I left the thread at this point and looking back at the thread now some others should have joined me. Stupidly I didnt report this or pm any mods, a practice I'll now take up, since its the best way to keep the forum running smoothly and still open to the public.

Yes the assistance call has gone out the cavalry are all here!

Whitewater and some others, youre missing the point of this thread. My and a lot of others issue with the thread that inspired this is with the sharp replies boardering on abuse that certain regular ES posters posted to genuine concerns/criticisms/Q's. I said it in that thread and I'll say it here again that people outside policing/courts/criminal justice often have mis-placed ideas/notions and allowances need to be made for those people. Anybody with any expertise in anything whether profession, sport, hobbies etc will encounter the 'layman' or the person not so well-informed. To ridicule that person who has honest concerns, criticisms or Q's is the height or arrogance and indeed ignorance.

Attitudes of some are the problem.

That's what I saw on that thread.

The couple of examples of trolling you mentioned can be easily dealth with by a Mod. In the circumstances of what the thread was discussing it would be inevitable that this would happen and in all I think that thread was pretty much troll and Garda bashing free save for the handful of ones out of a total of 80.

eroo

McCrack wrote: »

Attitudes of some are the problem.

That can be said for EVERY forum unfortunately, not just ES.

CLADA

When the ES forum started one of the worries PSNI had (IIRC) was that it might attract an excessive amount of anti-police/garda posts which would eventually lead to the forum becoming unmanageable. Its fair to say (to the credit of the boards community) this hasn't happened.

If the forum is to continue how strictly do we need it moderated? What is posted as constructive criticism by Joe Public may be taken as a snide remark or even abuse by John Garda. So how do we strike a balance and get fair play all round. If somebody objects to a post do they "report post" and have a mod give the poster an opportunity to explain or face a ban.

I remember Hagar rightly banning a poster on the military forum because they referred to a member of the defence forces as a sandbag. Similar terms of abuse have been directed at posters on the ES forum and escaped bans. I'm trying to put my opinion as a regular poster across here without sounding defensive or biased but when I read the opening post complaining about harsh treatment by ES posters and then it goes on to refer to "the sheep mentality that is often displayed by AGS" have I not the right to feel insulted?
How long would I last on the legal discussion forum if I referred to "the ambulance chasing mentality that is often displayed by the legal profession". I would be banned immediately and I would deserve it.

I don't believe the ES forum should be a private forum, many people post genuine queries and get benefit from the replies. Maybe as a result of this thread ES posters might count to ten before replying or non ES might take into account our sensitive nature.

DeVore

The ES forum should be a "where to find ES people" forum rather then a "they're over here take your best shot" forum.

That said, its not a closed shop, its not a staff room and the rules of civility should apply if you post there everyday just as if you have just arrived. Anyone who wants to act like they "own" the place because they have been here a few months longer then others should consider this; "DeVore" will be 20 years old in October. You are all noobs to me and I have heard these problems and complaints and whinges and fight-the-powers and campaigns and set-my-people-frees for a decade and I still try to exhibit as much civility and respect to this issue about ES as I have done throughout the years. If I took the approach that *some* members have to the "Garda 234 stole my crisps" I would be raving at you right now and calling you all names.

But you are off duty right? You are just regular humans, right? Well, yes and no. You wear a uniform which symbolises that in some vague way, we the people have assigned you an amount of respect to care and protect us, to apply the law and to do it fairly.

Do I hold you to a higher standard then others? Yes. Yes I do. You are *supposed* to be better then the average person. You are supposed to be more tolerant, more patient, more understanding and less quick to a snappy abusive comment. Now that doesnt mean I think you should have to allow every knacker to spit in your face but it DOES mean that when there is a "law" set down, and a "policeman" set to enforce it that you understand and follow those rules like you expect others to understand and follow your instructions on the street. You of all people should be aware of that. You of all people should be sensitive to the unique nature of the position in which you are put.

McCrack, comments like "here come the cavalry" are the matches that can set Australia ablaze. You are a smart and literate poster, please have more care with your language. All civil opinions are valid to some extent.

DeV.

Offy

DeVore wrote: »

Do I hold you to a higher standard then others? Yes. Yes I do. You are *supposed* to be better then the average person. You are supposed to be more tolerant, more patient, more understanding and less quick to a snappy abusive comment. Now that doesnt mean I think you should have to allow every knacker to spit in your face but it DOES mean that when there is a "law" set down, and a "policeman" set to enforce it that you understand and follow those rules like you expect others to understand and follow your instructions on the street. You of all people should be aware of that. You of all people should be sensitive to the unique nature of the position in which you are put.

I bow down in your presence.
TheNog Im not Garda hater and I do apologise for any offence Ive caused you. Actually I extend that to ALL members of AGS.

DeVore

This thread made me start: this one ... cos I'm interested and I think its probably a long list

DeV.

CLADA

DeVore wrote: »

McCrack, comments like "here come the cavalry" are the matches that can set Australia ablaze.
DeV.

Was going to highlight that but I rose above it

Micky Dolenz

CLADA wrote: »

Was going to highlight that but I rose above it

It is however fairly obvious that the PM's were flying around.:)

parsi

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It is however fairly obvious that the PM's were flying around.:)

And so they should.

This isn't a dark alley thread where folk are led down to be ambushed - it's a serious effort to facilitate all interested parties in discussing the relevant issues and hopefully straighten things out.

Micky Dolenz

parsi wrote: »

And so they should.

This isn't a dark alley thread where folk are led down to be ambushed - it's a serious effort to facilitate all interested parties in discussing the relevant issues and hopefully straighten things out.

I agree,

This whole thing started because one poster was unfairly treated. Many posters agreed with this, me included. It has since become a much bigger thing. I didn't realise it was the ES forum coming to a head.
One good thing is it seems to have cleared the air a bit and it was very interesting to be a part of it:)

EDIT: nobody was ambushed. Do you think they were?

DeVore

It is however fairly obvious that the PM's were flying around.

Which is not in and of itself any sort of crime.

In order to establish the truth of the claims I went to the source and looked for myself. I suggest that others do likewise (and not just on this issue but on anything anyone "tells" you who's motivation you might question... you know, stuff like Lisbon, WMD's etc ).

I looked through the page of 20 most recent posts and read all of them. Now, while there is a hint of "ennui", frustration and low morale about some of the coppers responses in some of the threads, I was expecting considerably worse which means either TheNog is doing a good job or someone might be making some porkie-pie mountains out of the issue.
I suspect a bit of both

I see a forum with a full page of 20 posts started either today or yesterday (our two slowest days) and many of which seem to be a good mix of police and other ES service (though primaraily AGS). That says "healthy community" to me.

A couple of the AGS should bite their tongue, press the report button and close their eyes until Nog swings by rather then "tackling the guy" on their own. We should immediately close any "my mate got nicked for an ounce and the coppers bashed him" threads without comment and simply link to the charter explaining that you arent here to answer for the services in question and how to properly complain about something.

It might be helpful to have labels for threads for each service ala the Development to identify threads for non-AGS topics.

The idea that this is a "staff room" is wrong but understandable. If someone is wrong, educate them. If you cant be bothered doing that in a respectful manner, dont bother at all. Sniping nasty barbed comments simply because your (the AGS) morale is low is not going to do much for the continuing "us and them" entrenchment so it might be time to surprise some people and break that cycle.

Some of our best moderators here started out as fervent antiestablishmentarianists [1].

DeV.
[1] yes, I love that word too.

parsi

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

EDIT: nobody was ambushed. Do you think they were?

I don't.

Micky Dolenz

DeVore wrote: »

Which is not in and of itself any sort of crime.

Some of our best moderators here started out as fervent antiestablishmentarianists [1].

DeV.
[1] yes, I love that word too.

I wasn't implying that btw.

I am fairly new here and you come across as very fair, sensible and level headed. Any chance of running the country?

Nice word too, I will use it in converstation tomorrow, atleast twice.

DeVore

Take over a country seemingly steeped in corruption and debt?


hmmmm, let me think about this...... um, no. Ta anyway

DeV.

eroo

DeVore wrote: »

Now, while there is a hint of "ennui", frustration and low morale about some of the coppers responses in some of the threads,

Sniping nasty barbed comments simply because your (the AGS) morale is low is not going to do much for the continuing "us and them" entrenchment so it might be time to surprise some people and break that cycle.

Who said anything about low morale? I am a regular poster in the ES forum, and none of the Gardai/police posting there come across as having 'low morale'. In the second comment I highlighted above, you assume their morale is low. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But how do you know? It's posters making assumptions about them(like above) that angers them, and rightly so.

However as CLADA said, they should bite their tongues and/or report rather than lash out in future.:)

Eru

I have requested a sub forum for work related posting, a locker room, if you will.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59333339#post59333339

If anyone approves or disaproves of this (or simple ideas and possible problems) I would appreciate feedback on the subject or possible I shouldnt be highlighting and inviting comments either, if so mods feel free to delete this post.

I think its possible the best way forward as it will allow the main es forum to remain open for one and all to post and once offs who dont actually have an interest in posting in the forum on a regular basis but simple have a querry, to still get an answer.

Micky Dolenz

Why not.

BTW, you could have probably used a better term than blowins.

DeVore

eroo wrote: »

Who said anything about low morale? I am a regular poster in the ES forum, and none of the Gardai/police posting there come across as having 'low morale'. In the second comment I highlighted above, you assume their morale is low. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But how do you know? It's posters making assumptions about them(like above) that angers them, and rightly so.

However as CLADA said, they should bite their tongues and/or report rather than lash out in future.:)

I am reading between the lines but I would likely put money on there being "low morale" given the sort of "embattled" feeling I get quite often from dealing with the Gardai from time to time. Of course I could be wrong but it would be bucking the trend of public service at the moment Thats not a swipe at anyone, I think it would only be human nature...


Also, I suggested they bite their tongues, just below the part you quoted.

DeV.

Eru

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Why not.

BTW, you could have probably used a better term than blowins.

Amended

deadwood

I've followed this thread with interest and I think the opinions aired have been reasonable and balanced. I post regularly on E.S. and I hope i'm equally critical of regular posters, trolls and my colleagues when it's occasionally required.

I notice, however, that a lot of the posters on this thread are not regular posters on the E.S. forum and I don't know what, if any, conclusion to draw from this except that trolls/walter mitty types and $hit stirrers are absent and this has allowed a reasonable discussion.

I'm a guard of considerable service. In my work, I now manage not to take abuse or aggression personally but it takes some time, and life experience, for this thick (yet remarkably supple) skin to develop. I also find that a positive and open mind is of a lot more benefit to me than pepper spray, semi-articulated handcuffs and light-sabre batons you'll see discussed in E.S. There's rarely an excuse, abusive term or genuine question I won't have heard before.

Similarly, in the E.S. forum (and A.H. and motors) I see questions about garda procedures. (my mate got lifted after complaining about being assaulted / searched for no reason / fined for travelling at 5kph over the limit on the M1 etc) In fairness to the mods, these threads, when answered, are locked fairly quickly.

On other occasions, such as the Galway assault thread, a question was asked (quite reasonably, I thought) about the procedures followed on the night in question. It was pointed out fairly quickly why certain action was/was not taken. Predictably, though, the thread drifted into a "looking after yer own" -v- " you don't know the law". The thread should have been locked earlier.

Another thread mentioned originally asked about battering rams used by Gardai and compensation for homeowners. An interesting point raised there. The thread somehow drifted into a firearms discussion. A poster claiming to have trained special forces in Ireland and U.K. raised alarm bells among regular posters and he/she was asked, quite reasonably I think, to outine his qualification in this area. He failed to do so and continued to post. At this stage he should have been reported and dealt with but we continued. It did get heated, but if the poster making outragous claims had confirmed his background it wouldn't have descended into the mess it ended up in. Frustration got the better of the posters.

My point being that, as in the real world/work, there isn't a question or hackneyed lazy/culchie/donut/power tripping/fish-in-barrell-shooting (not as easy as it sounds by the way, the slippery feckers) garda story that I haven't heard before. Some i'll ignore, others i'll reply to with my legendary understated wit.(modesty forbids me to quote my own work). This is where the old bull is different from the young bull. The posters who've landed in hot water here are articulate, objective and can back up their claims but, sometimes a little quick off the blocks and they may lack the life experience of appreciating the benefits of standing back sometimes. (I don't mean any disrespect by this)

As in real life - pick your battles.


The controversial issues in E.S. tend to be Garda related. Guards are restricted in how they interact with media, including the web. I'm like a broken record here, but we post here in the knowledge that our superiors monitor these sites. When a poster makes claims which might lead an innocent reader to misinterpret garda procedures, law or opinions on court findings - especially ongoing matters, this shows genuine members in a negative light, and we (in management eyes) are guilty by association.

This is why you will see posters, occasionally, being rigorously questioned regarding their knowledge and background. There was one poster, some months ago posting about garda and medical matters without any qualification, who was rightly banned. (The circumstances which led to this were similar to recent events.) The forum is a better place without people offering potentially life-threatening advice or third-hand legal advice.

That said, one of the main reasons I post on E.S. is to give non-members an insight into our work. There is good banter between services and a bit of mutual slagging is to be expected (though i have managed to offend someone with an old solicitor line). A closed forum is of no interest to me. When someone raises a point, they are usually furnished with a link to a site/article/statute. That's the way we roll(you see? an old goat like me is down with the kids) in Garda circles as "a guy in the pub told me" won't do for most judges. When someone comes on to make a claim of some sort we, unreasonably maybe, expect the same standard "proofs". In doing so we can come across as aggressive or defensive.

I don't know if i've articulated my views clearly, but I just wanted to give my view on why, sometimes we may come across as overly defensive. It's not a back slapping club - we just want to get the right word out. If we don't, there are plenty of walters happy to do so.

K-9

deadwood wrote: »

I notice, however, that a lot of the posters on this thread are not regular posters on the E.S. forum and I don't know what, if any, conclusion to draw from this except that trolls/walter mitty types and $hit stirrers are absent and this has allowed a reasonable discussion.

I'd say it is objective views who don't normally see ES.

I think it has added to the forum as many who don't visit the forum, have given opinions.

Esel

tallaght01 wrote: »

Karlitosway is also, in my opinion, quite possibly the rudest normal user on boards.

K, afaik, requested and got a name change to Eru for, I think, privacy reasons. Therefore, I would ask one of the mods to consider deleting all mention on the K word in this thread, including where the post I have quoted was also quoted by others.

Eru wrote: »

I go to es to chat with colleagues ...

Yahoo would do that for you. I can't see a particular reason for a private forum on Boards.

I know Javaboy posted this, but it bears repeating. The first item in the ES Charter is

# This forum is for the discussion of emergency services in general and is open to all posters, whether they are serving / former members of an emergency service, prospective members or just have an interest...

Imo, the ES area would be a poorer place without (reasoned) input from everyone. I was a regular, but infrequent (60-70 posts afair) in the original Garda Recruitment mega-thread. I would hope that the vast majority of my posts there were constructive and helpful, but there were a few times I called BS when I thought it was deserved. Since then, I read and occasionally post in the main ES forum. I can understand how some regular ES members get annoyed at some of the posts there, but over-reaction is not conducive to reasoned debate. As has been said, use the Report button.

I think The Nog has, in general, been doing a good job of moderation there. Thanks for that, btw.

I haven't quoted Deadwood's post from earlier in this thread, but it was a great read. I hope your advice is taken on board. Your dry humour in ES is also much appreciated, Deadwood! Sometimes I try to be humorous too, but, find I am constantly outshone.