Whats is the current status of threatened strikes at Dublin Bus

Cleopatra12

Well according to the HR manager who was quoted in the IT today, all avenues of resolution had been investigated. There is no more that can be done re the LRC. The LRC document said this (am almost sure on this). So the origianl cost cutting plan will be brought in.

There will be another ballot for industrial action by SIPTU. If passed, there will be a strike. Cant imagine that a ballot for industrial action would be rejected as 2 amendments, negotiated and agreed on by both unions and the comany, to the origianl cost cutting plan have been rejected.

See below for what was said by management...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0407/breaking78.htm

Cleopatra12

the boss of me wrote: »

So what will happen if members vote against industrial action ? Will the companies' original proposals be implemented on Sunday ?

Irrespective of an industrial action ballot, the cost cutting plan will now come into effect. (or so thats the plan)

the boss of me

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

Irrespective of an industrial action ballot, the cost cutting plan will now come into effect. (or so thats the plan)

And as I understand it the drivers will not work the new bills so the strike seems unavoidable at this stage.

dub_commuter

I just called Dublin Bus in relation to new timetables, and they said that they will be released on Sunday morning, and will be active that day. they told me that if I had any questions I should contact the garage when they come out, obviously they will leave the garages out to dry in the safe knowledge that head office is closed to avoid taking the flack themselves.

I bloody hope there is an all out strike, I really do because the incompetence of management is amazing and there really needs to be a clean sweep.

markpb

dub_commuter wrote: »

I just called Dublin Bus in relation to new timetables, and they said that they will be released on Sunday morning, and will be active that day. they told me that if I had any questions I should contact the garage when they come out

You mean to say the timetables will change with zero notice? That's insane.

dub_commuter

My other half phoned my local garage just after , and she was told that it was more likely to be Friday or Saturday as they reckon nobody will be working on Sunday!

Also told her that nobody in Harristown was behind some of the route cuts that were happening, but they couldn't give me full details, but there would be major changes to areas that didn't warrant such changes, and areas not being cut that they feel there should be according to their ticket machine information.

meanmachine3

markpb wrote: »

You mean to say the timetables will change with zero notice? That's insane.

well not exactly, new timetables are going up and being taken down in garages as things were coming and going over the L.R.C. and the labour court. the drivers had an idea of what the changes were, but to you the general public your quote markpb is accurate and quite correct.
i personally voted no for a number of reasons. first being route identity. i have my own route, it's handy but the bill is absolute ****e. these new changes meant that because i run late all the time i could be instructed to to another route that might have slightly less running time. no way am i doing something like that.
second and most important.
120 is alot of buses to be taking out of the dublin area. more and more people are loosing their jobs everyday,more and more people are loosing their source of getting around i.e. their cars and whatever other means they have. and yet this shower want to deprive you of the cheapest and in some cases the only means of getting around. again no thanks.

oh by the way this is the start of major changes to come if these cost cutting plans are introduced, dont forget the government is also taking away €11m from C.I.E. of that i dont know how much is from dublin bus but i'm sure cleo would be able to enlighten us as shes very well up in things.in fact as i'm typing this and reading it's coming across as a privates gold mine, this is exactly the type of thing the privates would be screaming to get their hands on.

the way new timetables are supposed to be done is as follows.
(A)a copy given to both unions.
(B)unions gives copies to drivers
(C)drivers report back to unions in writing
(D)unions meet management with the problems
(E)management sort out problems within reason and give new copy to unions
(F)unions give copies to drivers who then vote to accept or reject new schedule.
(G)then within a matter of weeks new shcedules if accepted are introduced.
in most cases from start to finish it takes 2-3 months.
none of the above was ever done for this round of changes.
bringing out these new schedules is complete and utter suicide.

in most garages you have between 3-4 managers in each garage just looking after drivers. now if thats not a waste of money i dont know what is.
by the way cleo you still haven't told us whether your head office or garage.

dub_commuter

To further my original post, the person in Harristown that was phoned (I'm not going to name them as I know management read this board...) did say that in relation to the changes that are about to happen, and in reference to the 40D that has been mentioned a few times in the past, there will be "Major Changes" to this route which in their opinion did not warrant such changes,

Overall he said that areas are being cut that should not be, and also areas are not being cut that they feel there should be cut and that nobody in Harristown was behind such route cuts where they will cause issues for their customers.

It is getting very clear to me that there is now a clear division between HQ and garages, and perhaps even local management. This cannot be good for the bus company as a whole. The local management have much better knowledge than the central management.

spoonface

>I just called Dublin Bus in relation to new timetables, and they said that they will be released on Sunday morning, and will be active that day. they told me that if I had any questions I should contact the garage when they come out, obviously they will leave the garages out to dry in the safe knowledge that head office is closed to avoid taking the flack themselves.

I've heard it's not gonna happen for another 2 weeks yet.

liger

meanmachine3 wrote: »

dont forget the government is also taking away €11m from C.I.E. of that i dont know how much is from dublin bus but i'm sure cleo would be able to enlighten us as shes very well up in things.i

Add to that €9million of a fine for cutting across the private company in lucan. Plus €1million for a corporate box in the new lansdowne rd and you see that of the 31mil losses this year around 70% of that is actually management and government caused.

I think its a cop out by dublin bus to force in changes on the back of the recession just like a load of other companies are doing.


for the record i'm a driver.

angel01

So are we looking at strikes next week or the week after?

V1llianous

liger wrote: »

Add to that €9million of a fine for cutting across the private company in lucan.

Sorry off topic but - Any links about this. I was one of affected passengers and didn't know it had come to conclusion.

liger

V1llianous wrote: »

Sorry off topic but - Any links about this. I was one of affected passengers and didn't know it had come to conclusion.

I was told by union about that, only link i can find is about the swords express case. http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2008/10/28/story383812.asp

meanmachine3

angel01 wrote: »

So are we looking at strikes next week or the week after?

it's very hard to know. as far as i know the result of the ballot the for strike/industrial that the N.B.R.U. had some time ago still stands. then we have the 160 drivers and whats going to happen to them. whether they're going to get a weeks notice again or if their last letter still stands and the company introduce changes from sun.
it's coming across from posters here that it's a game of pass the buck. you ring D.B. head office they tell you to ring the garage concerned. the garage concerned tell you it's out of hands you'll have to ring head office.
at the end of the day coming from a drivers point of view it seems to me that management are trying to run the company into the ground. making cuts where they shouldn't and leaving things as there are in areas that need to be drastically overhauled.

shltter

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

Well the SIPTU one is not

Doesn't matter as once one of the unions puts a picket on the other won't pass it

shltter

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

Well according to the HR manager who was quoted in the IT today, all avenues of resolution had been investigated. There is no more that can be done re the LRC. The LRC document said this (am almost sure on this). So the origianl cost cutting plan will be brought in.

There will be another ballot for industrial action by SIPTU. If passed, there will be a strike. Cant imagine that a ballot for industrial action would be rejected as 2 amendments, negotiated and agreed on by both unions and the comany, to the origianl cost cutting plan have been rejected.

See below for what was said by management...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0407/breaking78.htm

It really doesn't matter whether SIPTU ballot or not or how they ballot the NBRU has a valid ballot for industrial action.

The only difference it may make is the shape of any industrial action Siptu favour all out strike NBRU proposed rolling strikes.


However if new bills are introduced then we won't work them presumably we will be suspended then strike will roll out from there.



Just to add neither of the proposals was agreed on by unions the first was a proposal by the chairman of the talks in the LRC and had no recommendation from either union.

The second was a proposal by the labour court and the NBRU i don't know about SIPTU did NOT recommend the proposal to the membership.

shltter

markpb wrote: »

You mean to say the timetables will change with zero notice? That's insane.

For what its worth and I could be wrong I always said that the measure of how serious DB management are on introducing changes on a particular day will be when you see it advertised and on their website.

If they are saying that they will publish on Sunday then that says to me they are not that serious at this stage.

My guess is that it was a close ballot and that both sides will be looking at what they could tweak that would be enough to have a second ballot and win over a few more drivers and avoid a strike.

That's my guess but time will tell

Cleopatra12

The SIPTU No vote won by 6 votes, NBRU was a No vote by 28. It was very very tight.

Siptu have voted for Industrial action. Nobody is quite sure whn exactly the NBRU are going on strike whether it be sat or sun.

Siptu cannot go on offical strike until next wedensday as they have to give one weeks notice of industrial action. The reason they had to be re-balloted was because their original mandate to strike was conditional that all avenues of negotiation had to be explored and if not then they would strike.

So the company are introducing cost cutting which has been reccomended by the LRC and which had been negotiated by both unions. The origianl plan is no longer going to be introduced. Vol sev will still be on offer to 80 senior drivers. Shift payments remain the same. Euros will be affected.

MM3, I know nothing about subvention cuts to CIE only that they are €11 million.

dub_commuter

Cleopatra12, what exactly is your association with Dublin Bus? Do you work in their communications department by any chance? I notice you seemed to be very clued in and seem to be trying to dilute the discussion in various places and also have avoided the question previously.

As per the charter if you do work for DB you are supposed to make this known here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=126578

In my view the strike is completely justified, unfortunately due to the mismanagement of senior management in Dublin Bus, they have left the majority of the drivers with no option, my opinions of the company have not been helped by the media spin that the company have used in the last couple of months to blame everyone but themselves.

meanmachine3

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

The SIPTU No vote won by 6 votes, NBRU was a No vote by 28. It was very very tight.
Siptu have voted for Industrial action. Nobody is quite sure whn exactly the NBRU are going on strike whether it be sat or sun.

Siptu cannot go on offical strike until next wedensday as they have to give one weeks notice of industrial action. The reason they had to be re-balloted was because their original mandate to strike was conditional that all avenues of negotiation had to be explored and if not then they would strike.

oh believe me girl that is very easily got around. as you are well aware the N.B.R.U. isssued the company with strike notice (which as i said already still stands). now all they have to do is go out till next wed. then let S.I.P.T.U. take over. no driver from either union is going to pass another unions strike. we'll know by close of business on fri what exactly is going to happen.
cleo i can only assume you're part of head office so i'll use the phrase "you".
"you" want these changes implemented for the so called good of the company.
we dont want these changes because if they happen the public will suffer big time. drivers have said on numerous occasions where the revenue is being lost and as usual "you" dont want to know.

rx8

Cleopatra should be made to declare any association with Dublin Bus or face a ban IMO, I asked her in a previous thread about this and I was ignored!!:mad:

liger

Thanks for pointing that out, deleted my post.

karl75

i reckon shes clionha our media comms spoksperson from headoffice doing gerrys dirty work well my 2 pence worth is let the clowns from headoffice go their the ones that caused this mess and the revenue dublin bus is losing each week really annoys me and no one seems to care the passangers are laughing at us what a shambles

dub_commuter

karl75 wrote: »

i reckon shes clionha our media comms spoksperson from headoffice doing gerrys dirty work

I'm glad I was not the only one to think this

really annoys me and no one seems to care the passangers are laughing at us what a shambles

Not all of us passengers think that the drivers are at fault, I happen to know my local drivers and even local management are fighting like hell about certain route cuts, but a certain two people in head office are preventing them from doing so

shltter

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

The SIPTU No vote won by 6 votes, NBRU was a No vote by 28. It was very very tight.

Siptu have voted for Industrial action. Nobody is quite sure whn exactly the NBRU are going on strike whether it be sat or sun.

Siptu cannot go on offical strike until next wedensday as they have to give one weeks notice of industrial action. The reason they had to be re-balloted was because their original mandate to strike was conditional that all avenues of negotiation had to be explored and if not then they would strike.

So the company are introducing cost cutting which has been reccomended by the LRC and which had been negotiated by both unions. The origianl plan is no longer going to be introduced. Vol sev will still be on offer to 80 senior drivers. Shift payments remain the same. Euros will be affected.

MM3, I know nothing about subvention cuts to CIE only that they are €11 million.

The result was still a rejection no matter how close just as if it had been 6 and 28 in favour I doubt we would have heard from you.

The LRC proposals were not negotiated by both unions and well you know it.

The company and management sides could come to NO agreement the chairman of the LRC then made his proposals which were ballotedon without any reccomendation from the executive of either union.

And they were rejected by both unions. TWICE


ignoring that the bills that the company plans to introduce have not been through the agreed process so they can't be worked.


Also it is interesting that this reveals that as I said at the time management never planned on sacking those drivers they used them as a bargaining chip and put people under terrible stress for the last 4 months including knocking on peoples doors at 10 o'clock on a saturday night to give them notice of their sacking. Disgraceful way to treat people and its says it all about the way this company views its workforce. Well the part of the workforce that actually brings in the money anyway.

ixoy

On what grounds are the drivers willing to compromise?

From reading above, it seems the route/time-table changes are poorly planned (and forced through in a ham-fisted manner) - would you be willing to change routes according to what's laid out in the Deloitte report?

In terms of having to work longer hours or remove some of the various forms of allowances - what would you cede? Are you willing to take a reduced home pay or longer hours if the route changes are properly implemented? Or is pay and working patterns still a large part of the dispute (which is a less sympathetic cause given many private sector workers already face this)?

shltter

ixoy wrote: »

On what grounds are the drivers willing to compromise?

From reading above, it seems the route/time-table changes are poorly planned (and forced through in a ham-fisted manner) - would you be willing to change routes according to what's laid out in the Deloitte report?

In terms of having to work longer hours or remove some of the various forms of allowances - what would you cede? Are you willing to take a reduced home pay or longer hours if the route changes are properly implemented? Or is pay and working patterns still a large part of the dispute (which is a less sympathetic cause given many private sector workers already face this)?

The route changes are the outcome of removing 120 buses and changes proposed in the LRC/labour court document.
As the unions could not engage in preparing new bills while they had no agreement on the proposals that make those bills necessary and possible the company went ahead and produced their own bills with no union involvement and bypassing all agreed procedures.


The problem is that they wasted 3 months without talking to each other and the unions can not engage on the new bills because they are based on work practise changes that have been rejected by their members.

You have to have an agreement on the proposals before you can work on new bills.

shltter

ixoy wrote: »

On what grounds are the drivers willing to compromise?

From reading above, it seems the route/time-table changes are poorly planned (and forced through in a ham-fisted manner) - would you be willing to change routes according to what's laid out in the Deloitte report?

In terms of having to work longer hours or remove some of the various forms of allowances - what would you cede? Are you willing to take a reduced home pay or longer hours if the route changes are properly implemented? Or is pay and working patterns still a large part of the dispute (which is a less sympathetic cause given many private sector workers already face this)?

The problem is that there is no one killer issue the changes are wide are somethings are more important to some drivers.

Given the result on Tuesday the labour court will do a little tweaking they only have to win over 4 siptu drivers and 15 NBRU drivers to proceed.

What that change will be is anyones guess maybe clarification rather than change might do it who knows.

Cleopatra12

dub_commuter wrote: »

Cleopatra12, what exactly is your association with Dublin Bus? Do you work in their communications department by any chance? I notice you seemed to be very clued in and seem to be trying to dilute the discussion in various places and also have avoided the question previously.

as i have said in a previous post, I work for Dublin bus. I am not based in HO, but in a garage. I am not management, but clerical. I am clued in because i make myself so. I regularly have chats with all of the Union reps on a thurs to keep up to date on all the issues. I read all of their literature thats available every week and i have often have had debates with them. I also read to Bus workers leaflets to see what they have to say too.

I dont think i am here to dilute any topics, i prefer to think i offer a different pont of view of someone who works within the company, there are not only driver viewpoints to be given.

Please do not think i am in anyway unsympathetic to what to cost cutting means. I know only too well as it is affecting me too. I a going to lose money as well. Oh, and do you think i want to have to walk past a picket, but have so as out Union has instructed us to.

Is that enough info about me for you?

As regards SIPTU not being able to ofically strike, what will prob happen (if the LC talks fail this evening) Drivers come in on sunday, refuse to do the new bills, and will then be suspended, well that was one idea mooted to me today by both an NBRU and siptu rep....

shltter

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

Please do not think i am in anyway unsympathetic to what to cost cutting means. I know only too well as it is affecting me too. I a going to lose money as well. Oh, and do you think i want to have to walk past a picket, but have so as out Union has instructed us to.
.

Don't worry about passing a picket, AFAIC I want you inside working or twiddling your thumbs if there is no work to do.

Drivers outside the gate means no revenue everyone else inside still working means it costs the company more and hence puts more pressure on them to settle. Clerical or maintenance staff outside would not help end any dispute any quicker.

Not that it will come to that anyway Tuesdays result means a little tweaking and they will squeeze it through next week.

Dub13

The strike is off,I belive they are back in talks next tuesday.

Cleopatra12

shltter wrote: »

Not that it will come to that anyway Tuesdays result means a little tweaking and they will squeeze it through next week.

What do you think they will tweak?

shltter

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

What do you think they will tweak?

If I was to guess they may do something like clarify how rest days and bank holidays are to be marked up.

can't see them making any major changes

Maybe tweak the route blocking or clarify the position on standbys the current proposal won't actually work.

If you take a first car starting at 4:45 if the driver misses the car and it goes to a standby that driver has to finish by 6:45pm if he is to work his first car tomorrow. There are no reliefs finished that early and if there were no one would come in to do a 4:45 stand by off it.

So the question that the LRC or the Labour court does not answer is what happens? is the driver entitled to a 6:45 finish? does he get paid for a full day? does he get docked? does he get no work what happens???


Also if the stand by driver does not get out he has to be finished by 6:45pm to be able to do standby next day ?

Cleopatra12

shltter wrote: »

If I was to guess they may do something like clarify how rest days and bank holidays are to be marked up.

can't see them making any major changes

Maybe tweak the route blocking or clarify the position on standbys the current proposal won't actually work.

If you take a first car starting at 4:45 if the driver misses the car and it goes to a standby that driver has to finish by 6:45pm if he is to work his first car tomorrow. There are no reliefs finished that early and if there were no one would come in to do a 4:45 stand by off it.

So the question that the LRC or the Labour court does not answer is what happens? is the driver entitled to a 6:45 finish? does he get paid for a full day? does he get docked? does he get no work what happens???


Also if the stand by driver does not get out he has to be finished by 6:45pm to be able to do standby next day ?

I see what you are saying. To be honest I have no idea what is going to happen there if you are a sleeper. And i appreciate that in order for the 48 hr to be brought in properly, there will have to be clarification sought on this. I think perhaps that was what was being done yesterday in the LRC. Must ask today what happens...

Here is an idea tho (and its entirely my own imight add), if a driver were a sleeper and has to be finished a car at a certain time, and there is no relief, what if the driver were given one of the Extra works as his/hers days duty instead of it being done as overtime? Or am i getting confused between what an extra work and a relief duty is??? its hard to remember what all the jargon means.... (esp at this hour of the morning)

meanmachine3

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

Here is an idea tho (and its entirely my own imight add), if a driver were a sleeper and has to be finished a car at a certain time, and there is no relief, what if the driver were given one of the Extra works as his/hers days duty instead of it being done as overtime? Or am i getting confused between what an extra work and a relief duty is.

in some garages this might work well but when the 48hr week comes in there will be alot of drivers objecting to this. O.T. will be very scarce and very precious and they will want any extra works to stay as O.T.

Cleopatra12 wrote:

do you think i want to have to walk past a picket, but have so as out Union has instructed us to.

i dont have any problems with this and never have be it clerical , maintanence etc. your union has instructed you and fair enough. it was the same in 2000 when we were out for a few days the only ones that didn't pass the picket then were drivers, even the training school were let out for drivers doing their tests.
god knows what the labour court will come up with but i do know this in all cases management have said there was nothing left for them to give and yet they gave a little bit extra be it minute(tiny) but they still gave. what affects other drivers mightn't affect me and vise-versa. i've said my reasons on why i voted no and my no vote shall remain the same till i see fit.

Cleopatra12

meanmachine3 wrote: »

in some garages this might work well but when the 48hr week comes in there will be alot of drivers objecting to this. O.T. will be very scarce and very precious and they will want any extra works to stay as O.T.

Was having a think earlier today about using Xtra works like that, and realised it may not work. there would be objections to the loss of overtime and anyway the majority of those works are under 5 hours so its a tad short, too much like a workout! handy for the 48 hr week tho....:cool:

AlekSmart

What is probably the most important part of this remaining set of proposals is the extent of uncertainty surrounding the EU Working Time Directive and,more importantly the manner in which it was enacted into Irish Law.

We should be aware,in the first instance that the entire EU WTD is now the subject of serious divisions within the European Parliament and European Commission.

However,it appears,the WTD was written into IRISH law in 2007 at a certain level ie: 48 Hour Maximum Working Week averaged over 17 Weeks and with a MINIMUM of 11 hours rest between work periods.

Whilst for the normal non-shift worker these may not appear too restrictive,the situation for Shift-Workers in general,and particularly mobile shift workers is a VERY restrictive one indeed.

Shift Work of the type we perform is recognised as being substantially less healthy and more exhaustive than the ordinary 9 to 5 Mon to Fri working environment.

The present 48 Hour WTD proposals would severly limit Bus Drivers from arranging mutual agreed Swaps which are a common method of Shift Staff managing to achieve some form of Work-Life balance at no cost to the company or to customers.

There remains serious disagreement as to what the Rest Period actually is..The Company are adamant that 10 hours daily Rest is deemed "adequate",BUT the EU WTD directive as written refers specifically to 11 hours.
It further emerged that the Dept of Labour was somewhat uncertain also,with requests for a definitlve being put on hold pending a decision.

In my opinion a reduction of this daily rest requirement to 9 hours would translate into restoring a great deal of the flexibility which is a fundamental part of acceptable shift working arrangements.

There has been a very tiring propensity of the Media to accept the Bus Atha Cliath depiction of the core-issue as being solely one of Overtime.

Whilst Overtime IS an issue,it is most assuredly NOT the prime one and in some garages simply does not register at all.

The Working Time Directive has its roots away back in the late 1990`s and the derogation which ALL EU mobile workers enjoyed for 7 YEARS points to the complexities of attempting to superimpose a Deskwork Working Environment onto a totally unsuitable set of working arrangements over shift-cycles.

There is common recognition that Bus Atha Cliath management have been substantially wrong-footed on this entire "Survival Plan" issue,which appears to have been dropped onto their lap with little notice by the Minister and his Department.

The company is no more prepared for this "revision" than Italy was for its earthquake and Managements actions reflect this,particularly from the middle grade management who are essentially the one`s who are tasked with implimenting Schedules which are openly admitted as being cobbled together under great pressure.

The Unions have been outflanked also,in that what SHOULD have been addressed as a NATIONAL issue was allowed to be diverted into a cul-de-sac of a battle between Bus Atha Cliath and the Unions concerning Overtime.

It needs to be recalled that CIE Chairman Dr John Lynch advised of a TOTAL CIE Road Passenger fleet reduction of the order of 290 Vehicles which should have remained the core issue for the fight to be made on.

However,clever political manipulation has ensured that media coverage has been at best insipid and at worst misleading.

It has been also very interesting to notice how Bus Atha Cliath`s Public Relations executive has been an integral part of the Companys Management Team handling the negotiations,and boy,does it show !!!!

There is absolutely NO doubt but within a very short time frame Bus Atha Cliath services will be required to an even greater extent than had been thought.

The "Emergency" budget is going to place serious financial restrictions on every working family which the Public Transport companies SHOULD be mandated to help allieviate by providing a reliable and affordable safe alternative to private car usage.

That mandate,allocated under the NDP and Transport 21 has effectively been withdrawn without any consultation with or concern for the actual Public Transport USER....One wonders if the Users were Property Speculators or Bankers would Minister Dempsey have afforded them greater respect.

shltter

Irrespective of how next week turns out strike or not

I just can't see how the 48 hour week will work unless the company just pays lip service to it. I think especially coming into the summer that customers will start seeing gaps in service as the company runs out of drivers that can legally drive.
Simple things like medical appointments and parent teacher meetings that drivers have swapped duties to be able to attend will now require holidays or unpaid leave but for the company will involve finding a driver within the 48 hour rules.

Standbys won't work the LRC chose an example where it could work but the system is more complicated than that

Rest days is up the air with no one able to explain how it will work

Bank holidays the same


To me the head office management either just don't know or have forgotten how complex the entire system is and have not thought it all through.

The 10 hour rest period is a prime example no one has produced the legislation that this 10 hour rest period comes from. Any search of the original EU directive and the Irish legislation refers to an 11 hour rest period. When quetioned local union leaders say they have no idea where the 10 hours comes from and the unions national leadership will not give the legislative IS number that mentions the 10 hour period.

We will see what happens but if I was a customer I would prepare myself for missing buses especially as the 48 hour reference period draws to a close.

AlekSmart wrote: »

What is probably the most important part of this remaining set of proposals is the extent of uncertainty surrounding the EU Working Time Directive and,more importantly the manner in which it was enacted into Irish Law.

We should be aware,in the first instance that the entire EU WTD is now the subject of serious divisions within the European Parliament and European Commission.

However,it appears,the WTD was written into IRISH law in 2007 at a certain level ie: 48 Hour Maximum Working Week averaged over 17 Weeks and with a MINIMUM of 11 hours rest between work periods.

Whilst for the normal non-shift worker these may not appear too restrictive,the situation for Shift-Workers in general,and particularly mobile shift workers is a VERY restrictive one indeed.

Shift Work of the type we perform is recognised as being substantially less healthy and more exhaustive than the ordinary 9 to 5 Mon to Fri working environment.

The present 48 Hour WTD proposals would severly limit Bus Drivers from arranging mutual agreed Swaps which are a common method of Shift Staff managing to achieve some form of Work-Life balance at no cost to the company or to customers.

There remains serious disagreement as to what the Rest Period actually is..The Company are adamant that 10 hours daily Rest is deemed "adequate",BUT the EU WTD directive as written refers specifically to 11 hours.
It further emerged that the Dept of Labour was somewhat uncertain also,with requests for a definitlve being put on hold pending a decision.

In my opinion a reduction of this daily rest requirement to 9 hours would translate into restoring a great deal of the flexibility which is a fundamental part of acceptable shift working arrangements.

There has been a very tiring propensity of the Media to accept the Bus Atha Cliath depiction of the core-issue as being solely one of Overtime.

Whilst Overtime IS an issue,it is most assuredly NOT the prime one and in some garages simply does not register at all.

The Working Time Directive has its roots away back in the late 1990`s and the derogation which ALL EU mobile workers enjoyed for 7 YEARS points to the complexities of attempting to superimpose a Deskwork Working Environment onto a totally unsuitable set of working arrangements over shift-cycles.

There is common recognition that Bus Atha Cliath management have been substantially wrong-footed on this entire "Survival Plan" issue,which appears to have been dropped onto their lap with little notice by the Minister and his Department.

The company is no more prepared for this "revision" than Italy was for its earthquake and Managements actions reflect this,particularly from the middle grade management who are essentially the one`s who are tasked with implimenting Schedules which are openly admitted as being cobbled together under great pressure.

The Unions have been outflanked also,in that what SHOULD have been addressed as a NATIONAL issue was allowed to be diverted into a cul-de-sac of a battle between Bus Atha Cliath and the Unions concerning Overtime.

It needs to be recalled that CIE Chairman Dr John Lynch advised of a TOTAL CIE Road Passenger fleet reduction of the order of 290 Vehicles which should have remained the core issue for the fight to be made on.

However,clever political manipulation has ensured that media coverage has been at best insipid and at worst misleading.

It has been also very interesting to notice how Bus Atha Cliath`s Public Relations executive has been an integral part of the Companys Management Team handling the negotiations,and boy,does it show !!!!

There is absolutely NO doubt but within a very short time frame Bus Atha Cliath services will be required to an even greater extent than had been thought.

The "Emergency" budget is going to place serious financial restrictions on every working family which the Public Transport companies SHOULD be mandated to help allieviate by providing a reliable and affordable safe alternative to private car usage.

That mandate,allocated under the NDP and Transport 21 has effectively been withdrawn without any consultation with or concern for the actual Public Transport USER....One wonders if the Users were Property Speculators or Bankers would Minister Dempsey have afforded them greater respect.

AlekSmart

As more Staff become aware of the compromises already arrived at through the LRC and Labour Court documents the focus is shifting to the WTD (48Hr) issue where it should ALWAYS should have been.

The WTD and the 120 Bus withdrawal were always the CORE issues here but were successfully concealed behind a smokescreen of extraneous stuff guaranteed to get the natives jumping around in exitement.

Thus we had the Shift Rate issue, The Euro Bogey issue,the Travelling Time issue,the Wages Transfer issue and,of course,the Overtime issue.

This package was purpose assembled to cause as much screeching and wailing as possible whilst the Core Issues were quietly progressed without fuss.

Each of the other issues are of themselves the stuff of ordinary day-to-day business in Bus Atha Cliath Industrial Relations terms and they regularly arise in meetings without the world ending.
However,both the WTD and the Fleet Reduction remain VERY large Issues which required full and rigorous appraisal and negotiated settlement.

The WTD alone is an immense and complex set of working regulations which has proven to be poorly drafted and of little relevance to shift workers throughout the EU.
One of the major problems faced by Busdrivers is that BOTH Unions,particularly the Congress affiliated SIPTU have signed up to this sort of nonsensical administrative shytt packaged under the guise of "Socially Friendly Workplace" leglislation and are now discovering that the stuff as enacted is operating in exactly the opposite direction.

Introducing the 48Hr WTD in its present configuration effectively eliminates a Busdrivers current ability to ameloriate the often negative effects of permanent cyclical shift working.

This unforeseen or rather,ignored,aspect of the WTD flies totally counter to the general principles of EU Labour Leglislation which has tended to focus on ensuring that a sense of work-life balance is introduced into the general workplace.

Put at it`s simplest,the Minimum Rest Period of 10 or 11 hours is far too onerous to be implimented without some other methodology being provided to allow for staff to arrange mutually agreeable procedures in the interest of maintaining the delicate work-life balance currently extant.

What is also currently emerging is a certain reluctance of the labour authorities to get involved here,although the Labour Courts "clarifications" may reflect some background investigations by that body.

So,the next time any non-CIE person reads a Newspaper Headline describing this dispute as being "All about Overtime" please just pause for breath and try to comprehend the Godawful mess which Minister Noel Dempsey has engineered for all of us.

Dub_Commuter has it about right here.....

And look at those big bad drivers, actually daring to stand up for taking 120 buses off the road, which DB seem to constantly be getting away from, and seem to be making this row to be about the greedy drivers, and the media are more interested in reporting this then about the scandalous route cuts that will happen.

To deal with Liger`s earlier post re.....

.Add to that €9million of a fine for cutting across the private company in lucan.

This is another rumour which is doing the rounds with little substance to back it up.
The case taken by Paul Morton`s Circle Line operation is as yet unheard.
The only case which actually came before a Judge was the Digital Messenger T/A Swords Express vs The Minister for Transport which featured Dublin Bus as a "notice party" to the proceedings.
This case was settled "on the steps" with both parties agreeing to "Say Nuttin" as to the terms of settlement.
However,what IS interesting is that Bus Atha Cliath`s Counsel immediately applied for the companies Costs in the case.......I`ll bet Noel did`nt appreciate THAT !!!

At this point in time the Lucan Corridor affair remains in the legal pipeline with no firm date for hearings as yet.

Cleopatra12

I see there is a balllot by siptu in the 16th on the clarification they recieved during the week....

spareman

My understanding of the current situation is that a meeting has been convened for both Management and unions on Tuesday, when clarification on outstanding issues will be addressed, then put to the driver's in a ballot to be held Thursday.

The company will implement the changes on Sunday 19th regardless of the ballot result as advertised on there new website, If the proposals are passed in the ballot, management and unions will have just 2 day's to agree to new timetables before they are implemented on Sunday.

The last new timetable I remember was route 75 and that took 6 months to find agreement.

So either way I see strike next Sunday unless driver's vote to accept proposals and management delay the changes to allow time to agree new timetables.

AlekSmart

I see there is a balllot by siptu in the 16th on the clarification they recieved during the week..

Indeed Cleo,yet another ballot.....as an NBRU member myself I am somewhat concerned at what appears to be a wild fluctuation in the total poll......
I recall a total NBRU ballot of c1,800 for the first ballot which it seems fell to c.1,300 for the second round.
This means 500 drivers did`nt bother their butt to vote at all !

This I find inexplicable as equally I`m at a loss to explain the somewhat limited attendance at the second round of Branch Information Meetings.

This is not an issue for people to sit on the fence about,or at least if they do then to refrain from whinging and moaning when the eventual result does`nt suit them.

There are now also serious undercurrents of internal dissention in at least one Garage which is threatening to assume a serious level unless somebody gets real,real quick !!

I have many issues with my Unions handling to this issue,but I do do not accept that the Union Officials have done any less than their best under poor conditions.

It also needs noting that the Labour Court have been at pains to point out that there will be NO new recommendation,the meetings are ONLY for the purposes of clarification on the recommendations as issued.

Cleopatra12

Hmm, is it going to be like 'Lisbon.... Keep voting till you come out with the right result!..... hehe

meanmachine3

it's coming across more and more that there was never any intention of the unions going out on strike. what i can say is this. if these proposals are accepted then the communters better be prepared for a reduction in services because thats whats going to happen when dublin bus take of the 120 buses.
your right cleo it is the lisbon all over.
now cleo wait and see what happens with one of the unions. one of them is going to take a huge hit membership wise. we'll know in 48hrs whats going to happen. basically as a bus driver i'm sick of the whole god-damn thing. in all ballots the plan was rejected and they come up with some cock and bull excuse of putting the strike off.at this stage there aint much else to say.

liger

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

Hmm, is it going to be like 'Lisbon.... Keep voting till you come out with the right result!..... hehe

Its a disgrace to be asked to vote on the same document again. They seen how close the last vote was and now they think they'll get the swing on it this time. I would hope people see that nothing has changed and actually vote no on the principle that management are chancing their arm.

Tuesday : Lrc make their clarification

Thursday : We vote again.

Does that mean there is meetings in parnell sq and liberty hall on wed? And will unions be able to provide answers this time?

The way this is being is hard to believe. And 2days to agree bills? is that true?

shltter

I have a copy of the clarification if anyone has not seen it
PM me your email addy

liger

thanks for that shltter,

I'm still disgusted by this whole situation.

shltter

Here it is

shltter

Personally I think it gives very little clarification

It long fingers nearly everything out to review groups.

The only real points are that it sets out the reference period (which should have been included in the first document)

And it changes the travelling time ( but even then it leaves it open )


Other than that it is review groups for everything.

The bank holiday clarification is a joke 2 years but no mention of how it will work or how looking back after 2 years you can ascertain if the distribution of bank holidays was fair.

No clarification on rest days and how they will be worked who gets what ( if 5 drivers fulfill the criteria for an available rest day on what basis is it allocated)

No clarification of how stand bys will work what happens to the sleeper etc etc

No mention on swaps and accomodating people who would previously swapped to attend appointments etc

I don't know whether the unions are not looking for clarity on these issues or whether they are being avoided because the answer may not help a yes vote but for my money the clarification has been a waste of time.

rokz

I wonder if that chap mr Dempsey will get his own way..considering his lack of support.I bet he has a mate ..with a few busses.I believe he has all the relevant authorities in place for such a move.The whole situation has been orcastrated by himself from his approval of new busses,new staff. and no routes to today's rediculous scenario.....How do they get away with it..?