Looking For Landscape / Garden Design

The Sweeper

hardly work'n wrote: »

I have been following the post I started with a lot of interest. Well I did find myself a designer and guess what the price was for the drawings €250. Yes €250 and I have to say I am over the moon with them. Our site is quite large at over an acre. Not only did we get a great set of drawings but on the drawings it has the name of each plant, a photo plus what the long term care for each plant is. ie what time of year to trim.

He came out to us for his first visit and we talked for about 2 1/2 hours about what we wanted for our garden and what we expected. Then he took several samples of soil around the site. He had a small ph test kit and we where delighted to find out we have great soil and will not have to be adding a lot of supplements to it. He did not do the drawings after the first visit becouse we were in the middle of building a wood burning outdoor oven and outdoor kitchen & sitting area (mad in ireland I know).

So he came back a second time when the outdoor kitchen and seating area where finished & that's when he started doing the measurments of the garden and the drawings in earnest. We walked thru the garden together and he took notes the whole time we spoke. That took another two hours. By the end of the week he had dropped off the drawings and I handed over the €250. It was an excellent service at an excellent price.

And what impressed me the most was that on the drawings there were a list of the local nursierys and who had the best prices!! Now that is service. So as Sonnehblumen seems to think paddy the plaster getting €500 per day. I know a lot of paddy the plasters and none of them ever ever got €500 per day!!

And the main reason that we wanted a landscape designer is becouse I don't like lawns and grass some people love them But I don't!

Guys, in fairness, what's described in the above post is 4.5 hours of onsite investigation followed by the time required to prepare the drawings. Given the detail described, I'm going to estimate that the drawing prep took at least one day - eight hours. So that's €250 for 12.5 hours of work, working out at €20 an hour.

On top of that is the landscapers own expenses, assuming they're self-employed, so the unpaid time travelling to the site, the petrol for the car, the car itself, so on, so forth.

There is a degree to which you have to speculate to accumulate, and perhaps the designer described in the above description knows that, with the level of detail he provides, he's guaranteed a job out of 9/10 of his quotes, but €20 an hour is not a long-term sustainable payment model for a professional landscape gardener.

When you run your own business you ALWAYS put in more time than you get paid for and the trick is to be able to minimise that output and maximise your returns. As a result, don't just rate drawings as "too expensive" without understanding that there's a price to be put on time and effort and yet another price on expertise. Subsequently if you want someone who knows what they're doing, has extensive experience with different situations and will landscape design properly, with an understanding of different soil types and drainage requirements, for instance, as opposed to just what looks pretty, then be prepared to pay for it.

hardly work'n

As far as making €20 per hour I would say he probably made more than that. Yes he did spend 4 1/2hrs on site. But on the second visit he did the measurements & looked at the drainage becouse there is an odd slope on the property. By the time we were done with the second walk around he had a rough drawing of plants & design. We very much felt part of the design process. Also we spoke a lot about why we would put different plants in different areas. I rang him yesterday to ask him how long after it took him to put everything onto paper after. It took him about 3 hours to do the final drawings so a total of 7 1/2hrs. So at €33 per hour. That's not bad in my book!
And the best part is he put the price on the drawings for him to come in and complete the garden with his crew. Which unfortantly is way out of our budget. And what we will be doing is working in sections. I think there is good value out there if you look. And you don't have to pay someone €80 per hour to get a good service. I have a friend who is an interior designer and he once said charge them enough and they won't complain! So just becouse something is very expensive doesn't mean that it is good. I think I got great value for money. A design we were a part of making our own. I spent almost a year looking for the right person at the right price to design our garden. And now we are delighted and have started planting.

The Sweeper

But see even now - and while it's good you got a good design and value for money - he's a landscape gardener and a set of drawings are only a part of what he does. His final design is out of your price range, so you haven't carried through on the work he started designing for you, so he's actually lost out in your scenario.

I think that's part of the reason why landscape drawings can be so expensive - who knows, for every ten sets of drawings you do, you might come out with only two jobs - if even. Some landscapers are bound to price the time, effort and expertise that goes into drawings with that consideration in mind.

The problem with this thread appears to be that half of the posters believe that the work involved in site visits and drafting isn't worth the price tag placed on it, and the others who work in the industry have the full picture and see the drawings as only a single part of the whole business and subsequently not a loss leader - or not if you want to keep eating at any rate!

One thing that is true is that you WILL find a great variance in price when you request quotes - it's the same in any industry. I'm getting my front garden stepped in a three-tier terrace, with eco-wood sleeper retaining walls, plus a 3m x 10m gravel driveway. There is $1,350 difference between my highest quote and my lowest quote, and the lowest quote guy is the only one who mentioned vital things like drainage, anchoring the walls, using gypsum on the clay, mixing through mushroom compost, preparing the beds for planting...

aka_Ciaran

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

But see even now - and while it's good you got a good design and value for money - he's a landscape gardener and a set of drawings are only a part of what he does. His final design is out of your price range, so you haven't carried through on the work he started designing for you, so he's actually lost out in your scenario.

He hasn't really lost out, he's got roughly 33 euro an hour for his troubles, and most designers seem happy to do plans only, even if the client doesn't follow through. And as you said yourself you have to speculate to accumulate. Chances are that as the OP is very happy with the drawings he will recommend this guy to friends and family and whoever else comes around and sees the garden when it's finished. So for the designer this is a form of advertising and promotion, therefore well worth his while doing plans for this price. A lot of businesses spend fortunes on advertising and marketing with no tangible results to show.

Sonnenblumen

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Guys, in fairness, what's described in the above post is 4.5 hours of onsite investigation followed by the time required to prepare the drawings. Given the detail described, I'm going to estimate that the drawing prep took at least one day - eight hours. So that's €250 for 12.5 hours of work, working out at €20 an hour.

On top of that is the landscapers own expenses, assuming they're self-employed, so the unpaid time travelling to the site, the petrol for the car, the car itself, so on, so forth.

There is a degree to which you have to speculate to accumulate, and perhaps the designer described in the above description knows that, with the level of detail he provides, he's guaranteed a job out of 9/10 of his quotes, but €20 an hour is not a long-term sustainable payment model for a professional landscape gardener.

When you run your own business you ALWAYS put in more time than you get paid for and the trick is to be able to minimise that output and maximise your returns. As a result, don't just rate drawings as "too expensive" without understanding that there's a price to be put on time and effort and yet another price on expertise. Subsequently if you want someone who knows what they're doing, has extensive experience with different situations and will landscape design properly, with an understanding of different soil types and drainage requirements, for instance, as opposed to just what looks pretty, then be prepared to pay for it.

Majd,

Thats an excellent post with all points very well made.

Sonnenblumen

old boy wrote: »

why do you keep matching expensive with quality

Charge too little and you will soon be out of business, charge too much and you will also run out of business. The pricing strategy is within these two extremes, and for us quality and expertise will always be at the higher end.

We have overheads, but we have great skills, and we provide a top quality service. The demand for our services is sufficently robust to confirm our pricing is right and this is evident in demand exceeding availability.

In the case of the OP, he got a design on the cheap, the service provider obviously took a gamble, he sold on an OTT service for what was paid, and failed to get the instal contract. He was either naieve and/or silly on how he approache dthis project. In the end the client led him down the garden path? How many € 250.00 jobs does he need to sustain his business? Or how many can he afford to do before going bust? How does he pay his crew if he's on-site offering the sun, moon and stars for € 30.00/hr or less?

A one trick agent might last on € 30.00/hr but not for long.

In the real world, bar some exceptions, the truth is you get what you pay for!

hardly work'n

Firstly as the OP I just want to make sure every one is clear. All we wanted was drawings. We were always going to do the physical work ourselves and source the plants ourselves. We knew in advance that we were going to be doing a very large amount of planting and that we would have some bargining power going into the bigger nurserys with a bulk order.

Our designer knew in advance that it was for drawings and drawings only! We also knew going in that we would not be able to afford to get someone in to do the work. But by him putting in the price of him doing the work just confirmed what we alread knew. We are landscaping over an acre of land with no lawns. So there is quite a cost in planting involved. We also knew and our designer knew that it would be done in sections. And some sections just get to go wild!

So in that respect I do not think €30per hr is a very low price I think it is a very fair price to pay. We did not ripe him off or lead him on in any way shape or form in thinking that there was a chance he would get "the job". I would be delighted if I made €30 an hour. And I would say a lot of people in Ireland or around the world would be delighted with that.

Again I was looking for drawings and drawings alone. I was very up front with every designer I contacted about only wanting drawings and that we were doing all the labour and sourcing of plants ourselves.

I am surprised that some of you think that a person can not make a business work or feed himself on €30 per hour. And for that matter I think we have all been around long enough to know that you will not get a crew of workers in plus all your plants for €30 per hour. This post was origanally about getting some drawings for a very large site that we could do ourselves over time and develop our garden at a pace that we could afford with out having to go to the bank and take out a second morgate to pay someone to do it in a couple of weeks. Where it will probably take us a year or two to get it all completed.

aka_Ciaran

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

In the case of the OP, he got a design on the cheap, the service provider obviously took a gamble, he sold on an OTT service for what was paid, and failed to get the instal contract. He was either naieve and/or silly on how he approache dthis project. In the end the client led him down the garden path? How many € 250.00 jobs does he need to sustain his business? Or how many can he afford to do before going bust? How does he pay his crew if he's on-site offering the sun, moon and stars for € 30.00/hr or less?

A one trick agent might last on € 30.00/hr but not for long.

In the real world, bar some exceptions, the truth is you get what you pay for!

???

So anyone that gets a set of drawings and doesn't go for the full package in terms of doing the work is leading the landscaper up the the garden path? How is 30 euro per hour 'on the cheap'?

?Cee?view

I have to say that I find this thread somewhat incredible.

The OP came on asking for advice. The insults that he has been subjected to have been unwarranted. He's been accused of "leading [the designer] up the garden path" and the designer he employed has apparently been consigned to eating bananas!

Some valid points have been made with regard to certain business models being unsustainable, but the inference that shopping around is contemptible would certainly leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Personally, I have an acre and a half that needs some serious design input. I would gladly pay €1,000 to have it designed professionally. That is my choice and right, as much as it would be my choice and right to try to get the same design for €250. However, I would never want to deal with some of the attitudes displayed here by "professionals", regardless of what they charge.

monke

churchview, you are dead right. i am also a designer as is one other person on this post.I always been told that my prices are to cheap but that is my choice and my work is just as good as anybody else doing the same work. some people are just a ignorant and arrogant on this point and think if you are cheap,the work is not as good as them because they are expensive. Your work could look crap to me. At the end of the day it is only the people involved in the project that have the right to complain or. pass judgement on prices and quality

Sonnenblumen

aka_Ciaran wrote: »

???

So anyone that gets a set of drawings and doesn't go for the full package in terms of doing the work is leading the landscaper up the the garden path? How is 30 euro per hour 'on the cheap'?

If a designer pitches for a project and offers design for an unusually low price of € 250 for 1 acre site and has not further part in it , well perhaps he/she was desperate to earn some money, build portfolio etc I don't know.

If on the otherhand the designer is happy producing designs for 1 acre site for € 250.00 well thats really his/her business but I seriously wonder where they will be in the medium term. €30 .00/hr might be OK for a one man band or a lifestyle operator but not for someone intent on retaining a construction crew? Incidentally did the OP mention if the fee included VAT?

There might be plenty of one man shows probably happy to earn € 30.00Gross/hr, but in my opinion that's not sustainable in the longer term for running a business (no matter what the business is). That's why it's cheap. It would be interesting to know how many if any of the critics are running a business?

Sometimes for a full design+build project the design fee can discounted or even wiaved. Sometimes at quote stage teh prospective might ask for a free design? HELLO? IMO, there are plenty of small designers and small landscapers around the country either struggling to find work or doing 'itsy bitsy work' and there is little wonder why.

That's the great thing about free enterprise, competition rules apply and there's much more at stake than price.

Sonnenblumen

monke wrote: »

churchview, you are dead right. i am also a designer as is one other person on this post.I always been told that my prices are to cheap but that is my choice and my work is just as good as anybody else doing the same work. some people are just a ignorant and arrogant on this point and think if you are cheap,the work is not as good as them because they are expensive. Your work could look crap to me. At the end of the day it is only the people involved in the project that have the right to complain or. pass judgement on prices and quality

Disagree, as is evident in many design disciplines, there are professional bodies there to promote good codes of practice but also to promote greater awareness of good design practice an dthe value of retaining good designers. But there is no open door policy to joining these bodies. No one has to demonstrate a prescribed level of competency which involves submitting examples of work which are then scrutinised by experienced designers. Another popular form of having one's work open to scrutiny is entering awards and competitions. Some cynics might argue that winning design awards is (commercially) a kiss of death. But if you believe you are in fact a good designer/landscaper, why would you not wish to have your work endorse by the industry but within the public domain? What's wrong with having your work open to scrutiny by peers etc, it might be part ego-massage but it might also provide valuable feedback?

The real judge however is of course the paying client. But sometimes a client might be the victim of poor service and/or poor value for money. Are you suggesting that in such instances that this be kept between client and service provider?

Much more important to demonstrate a passion for what you do, and to do it with obvious pride, and in doing so, exceed client expectations.

monke

Not at all,if the work is poor well then it should be made aware. there are so many landscapers that get work and sometimes you wonder how. i have a question, did his price include construction plans, ie drainage, levels, what materials to be used

mikom

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Incidentally did the OP mention if the fee included VAT?

Readers should note that in this instance the term VAT refers to Value-Added-Tax not Very-Arrogant-Tax.

hardly work'n

Yes, just in case anyone is intersted I did pay the vat on the 250!! And again all I wanted was the drawings. And every landscape designer I spoke with I made it very clear we just wanted drawings. Again we were going to do all the planting and labour ourselves. The person we hired is a professional and not a lifestyler or however you put it.

And for that matter didn't RTE do a program on do you want to be a garden desginer?? Where they took 5 or 6 people who never designed a garden or had any training to design gardens for a prize? And if you check on the net several of those people are now "garden designers".

I am sorry for some of you who seem to be quite offended that I got a very good job at a very good price. If I could I would put all the designers info up on this site for everyone to see. Becouse I think people are now looking for better value for there money. And the other thing is he is quite busy for several reasons number one he is very good, number two he offers good value for money and number three and I think most important he gets to know his clients. Takes the time to involve them in the design process which makes it your garden not theirs.

So for those who are upset or offended that I recieved good value again I do feel quite sorry for you.

?Cee?view

hardly work'n,

Among the latest thinly veiled insults that are being thrown at you, there was actually a sensible question.

Did he include structural drawings, materials, specs etc?

Maybe you've answered this, but I can't find it and I'd be keen to know. My own garden is quite sloped and will likely require some "engineering type" solutions, hence my interest.

Sonnenblumen, I do run a business. I am aware that businesses in my same sector (and other sectors) can be run very differently, with varying overheads. For instance, a one man band could survive on much less per hour than a fully upscaled enterprise with resultant higher overheads. The one man band could contract people when needed to take on more extensive jobs. In this context, what's to say that the OP wouldn't take on workers/labourers/subbies or whatever you want to call them from job to job rather than as full-time employees? It's just a different business model which these days has the advantage of not having a fixed and inflexible overhead.

aka_Ciaran

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Disagree, as is evident in many design disciplines, there are professional bodies there to promote good codes of practice but also to promote greater awareness of good design practice and the value of retaining good designers.

Who's to say that the designer in question that provided the 250 euro plans isn't a member of a professional body? Sounds like the OP's designer has adhered to good design practice and is a good designer.

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

The real judge however is of course the paying client. But sometimes a client might be the victim of poor service and/or poor value for money. Are you suggesting that in such instances that this be kept between client and service provider?

That doesn't really make sense, no-one is suggesting that. A person could just as easily be a victim of poor service and value for money if they pay 1000 euro for plans.

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Much more important to demonstrate a passion for what you do, and to do it with obvious pride, and in doing so, exceed client expectations.

Judging by the OP's postings this is exactly what his designer has done, and without charging an arm and a leg for it.

The Sweeper

Folks, mark me carefully here:

If you have a problem with posts on this thread, report them. Any more on-thread bitching and I will infract or ban every poster who cannot get their head around that fact. Sonnenblumen has very strong opinions on this matter that he/she it has expressed strongly, and I'm seeing snipey responses from the side who believe that expensive drawings are a rip off as well, and it's unacceptable.

Keep it civil and stop the swiping, all parties.

This is an argument about value, and as the OP, hardly work'n, I would recommend that you don't take the path of over-reading into what's been posted here and accusing people of being somehow unhappy that you got good value for money.

I also don't support the argument that a designer is not good just because they are cheap, but I don't want to see any more arguments that have no more merit than "cheap = crap and pricey = great".

This is a good thread - I would recommend some of you review your comments so it doesn't end up locked.

dardevle

.


really enjoying this thread....like all other facets of the design and build construction sector ...landscaping is also going through the spin cycle of changes that is the recession,what once was is no more.
it seems to me that the op upon doing the necessary research seems to have gotten a good deal,well done... i also believe that 12-18 months ago
it would not have been possible to get this service at this price without the high risk of "cowboy factor".
like many of the rest of us, professionals are also feeling the pinch and consequently are having to cut their coat to suit the cloth...as sonnenblumen has said research is the best tool in the quest to find value and quality.


.

hardly work'n

churchview wrote: »

Did he include structural drawings, materials, specs etc?

Maybe you've answered this, but I can't find it and I'd be keen to know. My own garden is quite sloped and will likely require some "engineering type" solutions, hence my interest.
quote]

Our site is a bit unsual, in shape and terrain, the front half used to be an old road, but 30 odd years ago they took a very bad hair pin bend out of it to straightened the road. The farmer that we bought the sight from used to "winter" his cattle in that field (I'm not sure what that means. But I would say with all that cow manure is why we have such good soil:)). So there is a rather stange drop off halfway across the front that is in the shape of the hair pin bend. The farmer had left the old stone wall in place but knocked it down level with the old road and tore out the tarmac. The field was origanally lower slightly lower than the road. Our designer gave us the option of taking out the stone and using railway sleepers to reinforce it making it look more defined.

We opted to keep the old stone there in it's place. So we might have had to get some "engineered" drawings had we decided to go for the railway sleepers. I hope that answers your question.

?Cee?view

hardly work'n,

I'm surmising here, but would it be correct to say then that his design was for soft landscaping (i.e. plants etc.) rather than the hard elements (i.e. walls, driveways etc.) and their technical specs. - materials etc?

I'm just trying to get a handle on what was included.

Thanks

Sonnenblumen

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Folks, mark me carefully here:

If you have a problem with posts on this thread, report them. Any more on-thread bitching and I will infract or ban every poster who cannot get their head around that fact. Sonnenblumen has very strong opinions on this matter that he/she it has expressed strongly, and I'm seeing snipey responses from the side who believe that expensive drawings are a rip off as well, and it's unacceptable.

Keep it civil and stop the swiping, all parties.

This is an argument about value, and as the OP, hardly work'n, I would recommend that you don't take the path of over-reading into what's been posted here and accusing people of being somehow unhappy that you got good value for money.

I also don't support the argument that a designer is not good just because they are cheap, but I don't want to see any more arguments that have no more merit than "cheap = crap and pricey = great".

This is a good thread - I would recommend some of you review your comments so it doesn't end up locked.

Majd,

I was going to make some more replies, but decided to make one more comment here because otherwise it was becoming tedious and a waste of time confronting much yakety yack and unsubstantiated negative comment about professional garden design and landscaping. I couldn't care less what anyone charges for design, but I do know what the prevailing rates are. They are not all the same, they do vary sometimes under any one of several influences, but it to some extent circumstancial and very much timings. A Dublin designer quoting for a project in Cork, would be more expensive perhaps than a local designer for the simple reason of travel/meetings. There is nothing new in someone finding an unusual deal/bargain, and yes I truely believe in this instance and incredible deal was completed. If someone completes an assignment for such a low fee, so what. Why do I say this, because € 30/hr charge-out rate is not sustainable for any employer and a significant number of the self employed. I know what public indemnity fees, employer liability insurances etc costs are and € 30/hr is grossly inadequate. I also resent the snearing comments that some have made about 'landscapers or designers' charging more are some how some rip off merchant. I also reject that there is any significance or truth in pay back time for hard working professionals. I can speak for my own direct experiences but also broader professional involvement within the industry and good insights into the trading circumstances of many companies. Despite the prevailing concerns/media fuelled negativity, some companies are doing extremely well, most are probably operating at below previous levels (which for a number might have been inflated anyways) but otherwise doing well whilst others have suffered, including downsizing, reduced margins or even ceased trading.

To me too many are confusing price with value, and like 'one swallow doesn't mean a summer' similarly '€ 250 design fee for 1 acre site' may only be taken at face value and does not mean that up and down the country the incumbent business model has become redundant.

?Cee?view

Sonnenblumen,

Your points in this post are well made and clearly you do speak from experience of the actual industry.

I must say though that I don't detect the sneering towards you on this thread that you seem to feel exists. Rather, I think that you've been somewhat sneering in your attitude towards others and where inane comments about arrogance have been made (with nothing else useful to add) you've risen to them rather than ignoring them as they deserved. Frankly, I can understand why you'd adopt that attitude, but while I understand it, I do not necessarily agree with it. To pin my colours to the mast, I am a lawyer. My profession has been attacked, left, right and centre over the last few years, and in many cases deservedly. Many lawyers adopt your attitude and I can confess myself to having adopted it in the past. I think it's a logical, if somewhat misguided, reaction to a profession being perceived to be under threat. It's more helpful to all to be more open to criticism and to learn from that criticism. It's always better to proclaim ones own positive attributes such as experience, track record and proven customer satisfaction rather than suggesting that others might be lacking in some of those areas.

You are without a doubt correct that many businesses are continuing to do well in the current environment. Those that are perceived to offer quality, and continue to offer quality and professionalism will continue to thrive, even if it is more challenging for them to do so.

I note that you have ignored an issue I raised above (as of course it's your prerogative to do). I just cannot see how a one man design company (i.e. sole trader type) would have a high overhead, particularly if it has no employees and takes people on on a contract basis. I can't see that there would be high insurance costs in this model. For instance, lawyers (specifically solicitors) must have Professional Indemnity insurance or they are not allowed to practice. (Whether it's commercially astute or not to do so would be a different issue). Surely it's not the same for garden designers, but I may be wrong?

MJD, to be clear. I'm not attacking or impugning any one individual here. I'm responding in a general way to issues that have been raised.

Now finally, one practical thing, to quote myself and to ask Hardly again:

I'm surmising here, but would it be correct to say then that his design was for soft landscaping (i.e. plants etc.) rather than the hard elements (i.e. walls, driveways etc.) and their technical specs. - materials etc?

I'm just trying to get a handle on what was included.


If I get the answer to that, in the absence of anything else that's raised to do with actual design (rather than the business of design), I'm out of here.

...collective sigh of relief all around:)

hardly work'n

churchview wrote: »

hardly work'n,

I'm surmising here, but would it be correct to say then that his design was for soft landscaping (i.e. plants etc.) rather than the hard elements (i.e. walls, driveways etc.) and their technical specs. - materials etc?

I'm just trying to get a handle on what was included.

Thanks

Yes it was just for soft landscaping the plants and ect. We are leaving the odd levels and planting them as a feature. We are lucky the way the site is situated. It is on two levels (due to the old road) Sloping from front to back with a ditch along the back property line. So drainage on the site has never been a problem.

We did design our own (we meaning my wife) hardscape feature in a large outdoor kitchen & dining area. We have a question mark shaped concrete bench with a concrete firepit in the center for of the bench. Then a wood burning outdoor oven (Roman Style), a long concrete countertop and a texas style bbq. With a large concrete dining table. We opted for solar lighting & did not put in a sink becouse just too much hassle with trying to get wiring & plumbing. We do have a sink that can be filled with ice or water when needed. With drainage to the back. So hopefully when it is all finished it will look the business.

?Cee?view

Thanks hardly,

I appreciate your reply.

I hope you get the good weather you're clearly expecting

PC

PC wrote: »

Well done hardly work'n...I've been watching this thread with great interest as I'm in the same boat.
Is there any way I can get the name of this 'Designer' as I would love him to have a look at my 'jungle' and hopefully make some sense of it.
Cheers...pc

Hi hardlywork'n,

I dont know whether its against the 'Boardie' rules or not, but is there any way I can get this Gentlemans name or any sort of contact infomation from you as I need him badly. I have a garden that needs some expert advice and care!!!
Best of luck with yours.

Cheers
pc

Anduril

Fair play, hardly. delighted it worked out so well.
And you'll hopefully find that doing the hard slog yourself will reap its own set of rewards in years to come, apart from the financial.

The Sweeper

In terms of sharing the bloke's details, nothing on-thread thank you, but what you share by PM is your own business. Please note that we take no responsibility for any information you get on these fora that turns out to be a bum steer.

twenty8

mojo74 wrote: »

We used a bunch of guys called www.alliumlandscapes.com. Thought they were pretty good, and had some great suggestions. Their portfolio looked good so we gave them a shot. The garden was one of those total transformation jobbies you see on TV. Price wise I thought they were good value considering the end result.

mmmmm.... first post........

Cabaal

mojo74, I don't like spam, so I've deleted your post and I'm locking this thread