Memes or God - where do you get philosophy for living

CDfm

Its easy for me as a Catholic to point to stuff which has informed me on my values and what I believe and my philosophy for life. Whoa -why ask in the atheist forum. Well not everyone has a God belief and live fairly good and moral lives-some posters in A+A are in occupations where ethics is part and parcel of life & they think deeply on matters but without a belief in God and from what I see would be fairly conservative.

Some societies formed similar religous beliefs seperately- but I think we should limit this to Christianity as a religion .I dont think we should debate extremes of belief as where beliefs come from is the issue.

Some like that good for nothing Charlatan - Richard Dawkins( he is not popular in Catholic circles) has borrowed the term memes to describe this Phenomenon. God, religion, philosophy,culture, genes,memes or whatever -where do these come from if you are not someone with a structured religious belief?.

Dave!

F*CKIN PIECE OF F*CKIN SH*T!!!!!!!!!!

I WROTE UP A F*CKIN REPLY AND THEN TRIED TO CHANGE TO A DIFFERENT TAB BUT ENDED UP CLICKING ON A DIFFERENT SITE!!!!!!

F*CKKKKKKKKKKKKKK



I'm done.

Dades

That's gotta hurt. :pac:

AtomicHorror

Isn't this just the same conversation we always have with you CD? I mean, in the end you're just going to say you don't understand where atheist morals come from again and around we go.

Genghiz Cohen

I don't need the threat of hell to be a decient person, what I do/don't do to people I expect in return.

I don't need some up-his-own-arse bishop/priest/pope to tell me not to steal, not to kill, not to harm others, I do it because it seems fair.

You don't need them either.

Ickle Magoo

Well, just because I have no religious belief does not mean mankind has never had them. Surely they have historically come from the same place as if I were theist? All these things have evolved (if you are talking about local Christianity) through socio-cultural development that, in the main, does/did believe in a God and the Bible.

In that respect many of the social norms and the social conscience I carry were borne of religion & religious people. That said, there is a long standing tradition of atheism & agnosticism in my family & not a debauched jailbird amongst them. :pac:

Do you mean why the minute I realised I was an atheist didn't I throw off the shackles of the law, parental expectation & societal norm & start wreaking havoc? I don't know...why do religious people steal, cheat, lie, rape children or join anti-Semitic youth movements? Morals & religion are clearly not mutually exclusive.

Overblood

Is this another "where do morals come from" thread?

that good for nothing Charlatan - Richard Dawkins

Oh yes, 100% charlatan. Up there with Jesus and the magic wine trick.

Zillah

My morality comes from 50% evolutionarily derived behavourial disposition, 50% peer pressure.

Humourously enough, so does yours.



(Percentages may vary)

AtomicHorror

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

I don't need the threat of hell to be a decient person, what I do/don't do to people I expect in return.

I don't need some up-his-own-arse bishop/priest/pope to tell me not to steal, not to kill, not to harm others, I do it because it seems fair.

You don't need them either.

That's the spirit. Round and round and round.

I agree, by the way- I'm not taking a shot at you.

Zillah

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58022208&postcount=103

Karlusss

I get mine from Nietzsche and Derrida. It's depressing.

Calibos

Needless to say CDFM will say that his morals come from the Bible and also straight from the good lord himself.

Heres the thing CDFM. You used some of the morals the Lord gave you to decide which morals from the bible to follow and which to disregard.

In effect, God gave you the morals to find some of his morals written in his holy bible book of morals....immoral

Bit of a conundrum there CDFM isn't it:D

CDfm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Isn't this just the same conversation we always have with you CD? I mean, in the end you're just going to say you don't understand where atheist morals come from again and around we go.

No AH. Our discussions were on religion and assumed a religous belief and God.

Some morals and ethics are cultural( say doctors dont sleep with their patients) but some are instinctive/biological (we are not cannibals) so where do these come from.

I am willing to put religion to one side and group religion under cultural if that helps.

Its the essence thats important and how do we get them.

CDfm

Karlusss wrote: »

I get mine from Nietzsche and Derrida. It's depressing.

It must be hard being a social construct -so much to live up to and take in all the time. Ya poor pet.

Húrin

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Isn't this just the same conversation we always have with you CD? I mean, in the end you're just going to say you don't understand where atheist morals come from again and around we go.

Indeed, there is a sad note of determination to it all. The posts below yours are good examples of how even innocent questions like CDfm's are taken to be accusations that atheists have no morals, and are thus defended vehemently.

CDfm

Calibos wrote: »

Needless to say CDFM will say that his morals come from the Bible and also straight from the good lord himself.

Heres the thing CDFM. You used some of the morals the Lord gave you to decide which morals from the bible to follow and which to disregard.

In effect, God gave you the morals to find some of his morals written in his holy bible book of morals....immoral

Bit of a conundrum there CDFM isn't it:D

Not really - it shouldnt matter if some issues are biological - because if you take it to its natural conclusion ,whether or not there is a God as a creator, these should be neutral whether a person is atheist or not is of no consequence.

So which parts form these.

A proper discussion then would define these and then try to account for the others. The bible you might file under cultural or philosophy to be consistant. But its still the same thing- what is the mechanism and why are beliefs so homogenous.

Ickle Magoo

CDfm wrote: »

Its the essence thats important and how do we get them.

Have we not always had them to greater or lesser extent? Is that not the difference between us & other less evolved animals? We have better social cohesion & do better as a whole because we live within these universal rules & boundaries that have evolved to allow us to work together as a group, for the good of the group...

Ickle Magoo

Húrin wrote: »

Indeed, there is a sad note of determination to it all. The posts below yours are good examples of how even innocent questions like CDfm's are taken to be accusations that atheists have no morals, and are thus defended vehemently.

Not at all - I don't feel any need to defend my status & nor did I feel that CDfm was accusing me of having no morals. I just meant to turn the question around from my point of view there seems to be an alarming number of religious people with far dicier morals than I would expect, if morality is indeed, God given.

CDfm

Húrin wrote: »

Indeed, there is a sad note of determination to it all. The posts below yours are good examples of how even innocent questions like CDfm's are taken to be accusations that atheists have no morals, and are thus defended vehemently.

Its hard to drop a stereotype but I'm a bit out of my comfortzone here and there is no hidden agenda just to see is there a general model that trancends religion and atheism etc without the usual rhetoric.

Im optiimistic.

Húrin

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Not at all - I don't feel any need to defend my status & nor did I feel that CDfm was accusing me of having no morals.

So why then did you feel the need to refute a claim he didn't make?

Do you mean why the minute I realised I was an atheist didn't I throw off the shackles of the law, parental expectation & societal norm & start wreaking havoc? I don't know...why do religious people steal, cheat, lie, rape children or join anti-Semitic youth movements? Morals & religion are clearly not mutually exclusive.

Ickle Magoo

CDfm wrote: »

Well not everyone has a God belief and live fairly good and moral lives-

Who's refuting, if anything I was in complete agreement ^ ^

What seems to be the issue with turning the question around to where some theists get their memes which are at odds with what they should be? Is that not the other side to the question of why atheists live "fairly good & moral lives"? Atheists not the only only ones fast to jump on the auld defensive wagon, clearly...

ChocolateSauce

Long story short (really long, really short), I derive mine from an innate feeling, and build them up with rigorous logic.

I could go into it more CDfm, but I'd just be either saying things I've said in the past or echoing what other's have said in this thread.

CDfm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, just because I have no religious belief does not mean mankind has never had them. Surely they have historically come from the same place as if I were theist? All these things have evolved (if you are talking about local Christianity) through socio-cultural development that, in the main, does/did believe in a God and the Bible.

In that respect many of the social norms and the social conscience I carry were borne of religion & religious people. That said, there is a long standing tradition of atheism & agnosticism in my family & not a debauched jailbird amongst them. :pac:

Do you mean why the minute I realised I was an atheist didn't I throw off the shackles of the law, parental expectation & societal norm & start wreaking havoc? I don't know...why do religious people steal, cheat, lie, rape children or join anti-Semitic youth movements? Morals & religion are clearly not mutually exclusive.

This is exactly what I meant " Morals & religion are clearly not mutually
exclusive"

So how do we come to have them?

The Greeks and Romans had them.

CDfm

Húrin wrote: »

So why then did you feel the need to refute a claim he didn't make?

Say some morals are part of our make up - evolution or creation - are they not still part of our biology. What are these?

The jesuits used to say "give me a child for his first 7 years and I will give you the man" so what are these values or rather cathegory of value?

Have they been absorbed into our society?

CDfm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Long story short (really long, really short), I derive mine from an innate feeling, and build them up with rigorous logic.

I could go into it more CDfm, but I'd just be either saying things I've said in the past or echoing what other's have said in this thread.

But your views are equally valid -anyway.

robindch

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

I don't need the threat of hell to be a decient person

A lot of religious people do, even by their own admission. Weird.

Calibos

Appologies, I think I spend too much time on the US Jref forums where a much higher percentage of religious posters are more fundy in nature and more often than not, reasonable sounding posts and questions turn out to be them just setting up a strawman rather than a qenuine question etc.

I sometimes forget that while there are a few characters like that on the Christianity forum here, more often than not, those that post in the boards.ie A&A forum are genuinely seeking a dialogue and/or asking genuine questions.

This would apply to a lot of my recent posts in other threads too. Being way too defensive and turning a lot of my replies into 'attacks' a little too quickly before giving myself time to discern what kind of religious poster I am dealing with.

I'd liken it to coming back from the war (JREF) and taking the soldiers mindset to civvie street (boards)

JC 2K3

It's just evolution. Tendencies towards particular behaviours which helped us to survive as a species.

What's so hard to understand?

CDfm

JC 2K3 wrote: »

It's just evolution. Tendencies towards particular behaviours which helped us to survive as a species.

What's so hard to understand?

OK smartarse; monogamy :biological,adaptive behavior or a social construct?

CDfm

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

I don't need the threat of hell to be a decient person, what I do/don't do to people I expect in return.

I don't need some up-his-own-arse bishop/priest/pope to tell me not to steal, not to kill, not to harm others, I do it because it seems fair.

You don't need them either.

So thats why we have criminals and criminal and civil justice systems is it?

You do get told by someone and at some level its fear based.

Zillah wrote: »

My morality comes from 50% evolutionarily derived behavourial disposition, 50% peer pressure.

Humourously enough, so does yours.



(Percentages may vary)

So you have free will.

Karlusss wrote: »

I get mine from Nietzsche and Derrida. It's depressing.

Really - interesting that you mention Nietzche but then he was a bit of a hack and wrote loads of stuff. Something for everyone there. His fans would have said a new paradigm at the time,if the phrase was kicking around' whereas his detractors would have said bible subtitute and derivative from the Greeks -Aristotle and Plato perhaps?

But you havent answered why or where?

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Long story short (really long, really short), I derive mine from an innate feeling, and build them up with rigorous logic.

Inate sence of good or fear of getting caught.

Do you get guilt? Ever cheat on a girlfriend and what stops you doing it?

robindch wrote: »

A lot of religious people do, even by their own admission. Weird.

So religous people are not perfect and bend or break their own rules. Free will & sin being part of the deal. Admission/confession or reflection on right or wrong. Atheists and agnostics reflect on ethics and in A+A I have read many threads whose simplicity and goodness meant a lot of thought or instinct about the welfare of others was part of the deal.

Atheists may not have sin - but can be altruistic, feel regret and guilt. Why?

tech77

Zillah wrote: »

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58022208&postcount=103

Yeah, of course empathy/co-operativity are evolutionarily fitting.
But (and i started a thread about this before) is run-of-the-mill empathy enough?
What are the limits to this evolutionary compassion.

Is it absolute, allowing for the survival of all forms of life in your society above.