Confirmation Photo Fiasco!! - Advice Please.....

thinktwice

Hi guys I'm rather new to boards but something I came across today on a job made my blood boil. I'm still reeling after it.

I work as a photographer and journalist for a local paper. Today I went to take confirmation photos (on my day off) for them. I have also set up my own business so it was a case of I'm there I'll do it for ye as well. Anyway, I had put up notices letting people know I was going to be there and got some bookings. But what I came across was a complete cattle mart inside the Church. It was a disgrace.

Let me explain.....

A crowd from well across the county and by no means pro were there. Grand - at first....I got my photos for paper and set about organising my few families. I then realised this crowd of chancers had the place taken over. I really didn't comprehend it at first. A couple of parents explained it to me. They (chancers) came early......asked parents in the carpark for cash for photos and gave them a card. Then inside no other photographer had a look in. Parents said they thought they were the official confirmation photographers as they had a card saying so. They didn't realise because of this card that other photographers were others there. By then they had their money paid (in the carpark who doeds this). It was in my own village. What a disgrace. I have done many jobs in my time (6 years now) but not confirmations. Is this right? I think it's disgusting 1) to say you're the official photographer (4 in all 2 taking photos and 2 getting more of a crowd in) and 2) to ask for cash up front. They're not an actual professional photography crowd just 2 with cameras and some parents who booked me said in the past they heard the photos were not great quality.

I think it's unfair to the proper professionals too as they were undercutting me right under my nose.

Advice gratefully received cause I'm still very angry about this and confused!!
:mad:

Ballyman

I'm afraid to have to tell you that this happens every day in all kinds of business life. It's called competition. How good or bad they are will determine how long they last at this though.

I can understand your frustration but unfortunately you have no god given right to anything, regardless of whether it's "your own village" or not or how long you have been doing anything!

kjt

Sorry to hear but theirs not much you can do, maybe carry a shotgun around in the future?

An idea might be to take a deposit all new gigs, that way they'll know the cowboys in question aren't you. Although I can't see how they could have got mixed up

oshead

I don't know what you mean by chancers. Are you saying that you were the official photographer. If you are, under whose license. Just because you put up a few notices letting people know you will be there, in my book, does not make you official. Sounds like the other troop of photographers had their act together and were well organized. As far as the quality of images they produced, sounds to me like hear say. Did you see them yourself.

Maybe you should get to the gig earlier in the future and mark this down as a learning experience.

DaireQuinlan

Ballyman wrote: »

I'm afraid to have to tell you that this happens every day in all kinds of business life. It's called competition. How good or bad they are will determine how long they last at this though.

I can understand your frustration but unfortunately you have no god given right to anything, regardless of whether it's "your own village" or not or how long you have been doing anything!

kjt wrote: »

Sorry to hear but theirs not much you can do, maybe carry a shotgun around in the future?

An idea might be to take a deposit all new gigs, that way they'll know the cowboys in question aren't you. Although I can't see how they could have got mixed up

oshead wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by chancers. Are you saying that you were the official photographer. If you are, under whose license. Just because you put up a few notices letting people know you will be there, in my book, does not make you official. Sounds like the other troop of photographers had their act together and were well organized. As far as the quality of images they produced, sounds to me like hear say. Did you see them yourself.

Maybe you should get to the gig earlier in the future and mark this down as a learning experience.

Harsh, but I think I'm probably broadly in agreement. The only thing that strikes me as a bit incongruous was the other photographers describing themselves the official photographers. OTOH maybe the school involved had arranged for them to be there or something.

-edit- actually, on re-reading your post (OP) I notice you say that some parents "thought they were the official photographers". So what was the difference between themselves and yourself ? That you'd put up flyers before hand ? That they were asking for money up front (and why not ? Seems as good a way of doing it as any other way given the chaos of a confirmation) Everything else seems a combination of opinion and hearsay ...

thinktwice

Oshead no you got me wrong.
"Are you saying that you were the official photographer. If you are, under whose license. Just because you put up a few notices letting people know you will be there, in my book, does not make you official. Sounds like the other troop of photographers had their act together and were well organized."

They had cheap business cards done up, and a specific card which stated that They were the official photographers - there is no such thing. By no means do I think that by putting up a few notices that I have the gig either even if it is my village. And I'm also well aware of business and competition. I'm doing this long enough.

It's the fact that they claimed to be official with cheap cards presented to parents and basically tauting for business outside a church taking hard cash before the child has had time to go in the door. Where's the professional standard. By the way I'm aware of these guys over the years and they are no means pro either.

All's fair in business I suppose!

sheesh

THe only thing you could do as far as i can see is 'brand' yourself have people lined up before hand and have an assistant to help you to hold on to them. Have a little stand in the parking lot with a sign. making you look more offical.

thinktwice

Harsh, but I think I'm probably broadly in agreement. The only thing that strikes me as a bit incongruous was the other photographers describing themselves the official photographers. OTOH maybe the school involved had arranged for them to be there or something.

no no-one had a clue who they were they just ambushed the place. I know a lot of the locals and they were asking me who they were. They just turned up got in there.

thinktwice

sheesh wrote: »

THe only thing you could do as far as i can see is 'brand' yourself have people lined up before hand and have an assistant to help you to hold on to them. Have a little stand in the parking lot with a sign. making you look more offical.

Hi Sheesh,

Ya got straight on to my business partner about something along those lines. Also adding no cash up front! Cheers :rolleyes:

thinktwice

kjt wrote: »

Sorry to hear but theirs not much you can do, maybe carry a shotgun around in the future?

An idea might be to take a deposit all new gigs, that way they'll know the cowboys in question aren't you. Although I can't see how they could have got mixed up

Ya for weddings I take deposits but as it was first time confirmation I didn't. Next time though! Shotgun sounds good. I'm putting it down to experience and will find a way around - no better woman!!

oshead

thinktwice wrote: »

They had cheap business cards done up, and a specific card which stated that They were the official photographers - there is no such thing. By no means do I think that by putting up a few notices that I have the gig either even if it is my village. And I'm also well aware of business and competition. I'm doing this long enough.

It's the fact that they claimed to be official with cheap cards presented to parents and basically tauting for business outside a church taking hard cash before the child has had time to go in the door. Where's the professional standard. By the way I'm aware of these guys over the years and they are no means pro either.

All's fair in business I suppose!

Cheap business cards is neither here nor there. By stating that they were the official photographers on another card is a bit much though. But they made their money and in business, one of the most important things is to make a profit. Because they played the game in a different manner than you would have, does not make them wrong. Just better at making money. Seems the only underhanded thing they did was to put Official on their cards. This may be construed as false advertising. I would never condone that. But it happens all the time in business.

They also had the power of numbers in their favour. Six people I think you said. Hopefully you've learned a lesson from this and maybe in the future you could consider teaming up with a few people for the next gig.

thinktwice

-edit- actually, on re-reading your post (OP) I notice you say that some parents "thought they were the official photographers". So what was the difference between themselves and yourself ? That you'd put up flyers before hand ? That they were asking for money up front (and why not ? Seems as good a way of doing it as any other way given the chaos of a confirmation) Everything else seems a combination of opinion and hearsay ...[/QUOTE]

Are you for real? No proper photographer will ask for money before hand. Ya book, get deposit but not get the fee until after the event. The difference with me and them is they had a 'cheap' card stating 'Official Confirmation Photographer' under whose say so - the Bishop? He/They showed this to parents so, it's misleading if anything. And parents 'who hadn't booked anyone' thought as they (the chancers) were stating official status that no one else would be taking shots. Parents were made to feel it was their last chance or they'd get no photos..... is this ethically ok to do? I really have a problem with this. It's a child's special day and parents were made feel like pay up or tough sh*t!

thinktwice

oshead wrote: »

Cheap business cards is neither here nor there. By stating that they were the official photographers on another card is a bit much though. But they made their money and in business, one of the most important things is to make a profit. Because they played the game in a different manner than you would have, does not make them wrong. Just better at making money. Seems the only underhanded thing they did was to put Official on their cards. This may be construed as false advertising. I would never condone that. But it happens all the time in business.

They also had the power of numbers in their favour. Six people I think you said. Hopefully you've learned a lesson from this and maybe in the future you could consider teaming up with a few people for the next gig.

Ya fair enough, I definitely learned from it though and made some bit of dosh but was just shocked at the tactics used! I'm perhaps a little too honest for my own good must get a ruthless streak! :pac:

democrates

I'm sure your local paper would be happy to run the story warning of the risk of paying a stranger on a promise, but whether that suits you partly depends on whether parents are happy with the shots they get back from the flash mob.

The less risky option is to simply highlight your competitive advantage on your next set of fliers and get in early next time, you're local and well known, use your network.

nilhg

Since when did a church become an open to all place to ply your business? Sounds as if the PP down there is a quiet man, some of the goings on at communions/confirmations can be tacky to say the least, but by the sound of this, it takes the biscuit.

Ricky91t

In my opinion,they can say what ever they want,They're in the business to make money and so are you,Either way their cards could state they are official comfirmation photographers and maybe they are,Just because they havn't been local before doesn't meanm they havbn't covered 20-30 in cork or limerick.

When i went to my confirmation(7-8 years ago)in Duagh(you might know it) We were basically jumped on by a photographer asking for money up front and we just said no.

At the end of the day the people there are the consumers and it's their choice,Suppose in the future it's better to be there early,I'm sure if you wear a jacket from the local paper,people will notice it or you,And probably pick you.As for this one,at least you've come out with some experience

thinktwice

democrates wrote: »

I'm sure your local paper would be happy to run the story warning of the risk of paying a stranger on a promise, but whether that suits you partly depends on whether parents are happy with the shots they get back from the flash mob.

The less risky option is to simply highlight your competitive advantage on your next set of fliers and get in early next time, you're local and well known, use your network.

Ya I have a couple of angles on this I know parents who were disgusted with paying cash up front before even entering their local church. Another is did the Bishop authorise them as official photographers like they claim with their cards - that's what really p*ssed me off.

Plans is motion for the next one, now that I know what I'm up against. Don't like it but business is business!:p

Appreciate all the advice you have given me. Today was a real eye opener to say the least!

thinktwice

Ricky91t wrote: »

In my opinion,they can say what ever they want,They're in the business to make money and so are you,Either way their cards could state they are official comfirmation photographers and maybe they are,Just because they havn't been local before doesn't meanm they havbn't covered 20-30 in cork or limerick.

When i went to my confirmation(7-8 years ago)in Duagh(you might know it) We were basically jumped on by a photographer asking for money up front and we just said no.

At the end of the day the people there are the consumers and it's their choice,Suppose in the future it's better to be there early,I'm sure if you wear a jacket from the local paper,people will notice it or you,And probably pick you.As for this one,at least you've come out with some experience

I know them in name and not a real professional business really. As far as I'm aware there is no official Confirmation photographer would the diocese allow this?

I'd no idea it as so commercial! Ya parents are the consumers but to be ambushed like that is so wrong. I can remember my confirmation (almost 20 years ago now eekkk!) but it was nothing like it is today. These guys are making it this way and it's wrong. I was wearing my jacket and everyone knew who I was but had already paid before church - never ever thought people operate this way! Must get there first next time!:p

thinktwice

nilhg wrote: »

Since when did a church become an open to all place to ply your business? Sounds as if the PP down there is a quiet man, some of the goings on at communions/confirmations can be tacky to say the least, but by the sound of this, it takes the biscuit.

The local priest is off sick a few months! So there's a stand in or two I haven't been in a while have young kids (nightmare in Church!) Anyway, it appears these guys just turn up and taut! It's ridiculous I don't want to operate at their level and that's what worries me - it can only get worse. I absolutely love photography and am proud of my work and love showing the results to families etc. It was rush rush rush today without a second thought for the poor kids!:(

Covey

If I were you I'd thinktwice before doing confirmations again

Mr Quiet

Covey wrote: »

If I were you I'd thinktwice before doing confirmations again

Or get there early with business cards at hand

Fajitas!

OP, you should see graduations if you want examples of chancers.

Baulk.

Borderfox

This is what monopods are made for, cracking heads!!

Fajitas!

What ye needed was a bit of Jesus kicking the cowboys out of the church, like in that short story...

:pac:

Fireman

Covey wrote: »

If I were you I'd thinktwice before doing confirmations again

Nice one Covey he he he!!!!

thinktwice

Covey wrote: »

If I were you I'd thinktwice before doing confirmations again

ha ha ha they'll think twice next time with my new plan!:P

AnCatDubh

had an interesting experience of a similar nature yesterday too (as it turned out)

I was there in a personal capacity and I don't do photography for a living so i'd be different to you in that regard. This wasn't our first for confirmation so we'd been there before (same church, same bishop, same, priest, same schools, same PHOTOGRAPHERS).

Although there in a personal capacity I had a casual interest in observing how one would go about being an event photographer at such events. I came away from it thinking - never would I subject myself to such an experience. I know this is where you need a very hard neck and i'd think a forceful character.

The photographers which were there we had seen in action on previous confirmations. They were experienced, bold and brash. From outside the church they were hawking for the business which to be honest I didn't mind - we simply told them "no" and they didn't push for a sale which was fine.

We were approached a second time at the top of the alter but again "No" sufficed.

My difficulty was as per previous occasions at the alter and post ceremony. These photographers essentially were 'taking over' in a bold and brash manner. I mean from the event perspective they wouldn't have had any particular authority and I appreciate that it isn't an easy task given the scrum which ensues to get the bishop's mug shot with your son / daughter.

Anyway I had a plan as I had seen the operation on the previous occasion.

Plan was - Daughters go up for the photograph. Dad walks from the side to a position in front of the photographers and backs up to get enough in frame and complete the shot. In doing so I realised there would be a little bit of a scrum so I choose ignorance as the best policy and when I got in front I backed-up arms slightly extended and with with a move borrowed from a little self defence training used elbows to give a final nudge (which actually moved the photographer off their commanding step at the top of the alter) and gave me room for the shot i needed to take. ( elbows make excellent short range weapons by the way - should be part of every photographers kit - i promise though that i didn't use them in vengance ).

Maybe the above was rude of me (and i'm so not that kind of person normally) but I had seen how these boys operated before and had been on the receiving end of them commanding the pole position at the alter but this time I was ready.

OP - I mean if you are hoping to cover these events as photographic opportunities you are into a dog eat dog scenario. Maybe you could get to the local schools before the event i.e. catch the client before they get to the car park and accept small booking deposit which would seal a deal for you. Then be very visible on the day. Or - organise through the school for the following day at school to run a photo booth giving the school a cut from the profit turning it into a fund raiser for the school. Could work too.

I satisfied my own thinking on possibly covering confirmations as an event - there is too much of a scrum between photographers, parents like me with some know how and reasonable gear, and the p&s brigade with everything from mobile phones to reasonable quality p&s's. As someone coming to it from the perspective of having a family member being confirmed and wanting to use my own gear and skills to capture the image - I previously wasn't pleased with these professionals commanding the top of the line and I don't think i'd like to be a photographer whose job will be difficult in any event on that day with people with 'plans' and weilding their elbows to meet their objective.

You could also make an issue of it with the bishop / priests to be denounced from the alter as it were - then you'd be into a different scenario altogether.

Good luck next year! Don't forget your elbows

Borderfox

Nothing wrong there AnCatDubh

Valentia

The PP should sort that stuff out. This has been going on for decades and unless the parish put some sort of licensing system in place it will always go on.

overmantle

None of those cowboys should be left inside the door of the church! Many schools have photographers who visit the school afterwards to take group photographs of all the children and individual ones which they can buy if they wish.
Most people have digital cameras now anyway, so the need for multiple photographers at the church isn't there anymore. I feel sorry for the original poster here. This rubbish about the other chancer being a better businessman is a pretty lame theory.

Borderfox

I did a confirmation for another guy last year and he had organised that I was the official photographer with the local church. When I got down there I met with the parish priest and he "confirmed " this was true. As the job turned out I took pictures and handed out cards and then the parents went to his website and bought pictures if they wanted to.