ASTI and TUI vote for Industrial Action

dolliemix

Nesf you have a very simplistic view of order of events here.

You are saying that teachers are going on strike just so they can be seen to be doing something. just to let you know - a lot of the damage is already done, we're trying to make our voices heard here, because nobody listens to us.. We protested on a Saturday a few weeks ago. One hundred thousand people turned up to the march. Even back then, people didn't look in to our concerns and simply claimed teachers are always complaining, sure don't they have jobs for life and great holidays.

Yes, we have great holidays!

Janeybabe consider this, before you judge your colleagues.
.
1. We are joining other public servants on 30th March and showing solidarity. This is not a 'teacher' thing. It is all public servants coming together expressing their anger at how the Government are dealing with this economic crisis. Our Government are targeting education to save money. Teachers took their pay cut and that is not the issue. We are saying, yes, we'll do our bit, but can we please see others experiencing the pain. To date, that is not happening in terms of politicians salaries and bankers who are still running banks and are on over the top incomes. Personally, I don't understand, and never have, why people need to own more than one house. They've been pushing the likes of you and me out of the market for years. Now that the bubble has burst, the government is doing all it can to protect home owners at the expense of our children. It's wrong.

2. On average 2- 3 teachers will be let go from their jobs in June. Consider the amount of schools in the country and the amount of teachers who will be unemployed. Add to that the amount of teachers coming out of the teacher training courses.

3. Special needs has been hit drastically. There are children in our system, and I've spoken about this in a previous post so I wont go into it, who will not be able to continue in education as a result of this. It is not fair to these children that this is happening.

4. Pupil-teacher ratio will be increased.


5. General progress in education is on hold at the moment which is frustrating but expected at a time like this. If you are not a teacher, you will have no concept as to how these cutbacks and lack of financial support can effect the individual child. But above all else, there will be no support for technology advances, which in this day and age are paramount to keeping with the times and equipping our children for the future.

The list goes on....and I'm sure somebody will respond with a very insightful 'sure the whole country is suffering'!!

We have a responsibility, as teachers, to fight for our students. It is our job to tell the Government to stop taking from education. Nobody else will, because unless you are a teacher you can no idea as to how these cutbacks can effect our children. We're being brave and controversial but we're doing the right thing.

Janeybabe, there was a strike, the year I started teaching, ten years ago. It's a very painful experience. Everyone, from every angle, will tell you why teachers are wrong and selfish, but just ask yourself, are these people teachers themselves? Have they any notion as to how the education of the children, that we see from day to day, is effected. The answer is probably no!

Yes, teachers are very aware there is a global recession. We see the emotional side to that every day in our classrooms. Anything that happens in our society effects our children.

We're asking the Taoiseach to soften the blow. Why are our children being targeted? Why shouldn't the very wealthy people in our society bear the burden of this economic crisis? We have been willing to play our part up to this point but we believe that the burden should be bared equally across the board.

nesf

dolliemix wrote: »

We protested on a Saturday a few weeks ago. One hundred thousand people turned up to the march. Even back then, people didn't look in to our concerns and simply claimed teachers are always complaining, sure don't they have jobs for life and great holidays.

So instead you're going to protest on a school day and disrupt classes for Leaving Cert students just before oral exams? What does that achieve that a weekend protest doesn't? Your views have been made clear on this.

What are you threatening, that you'll start striking regularly until the Government rows back on their decision? That you'll stop doing your jobs until the decision is reversed? How does this end if the Government doesn't give in?

freire

nesf wrote: »

What are you threatening, that you'll start striking regularly until the Government rows back on their decision? That you'll stop doing your jobs until the decision is reversed? How does this end if the Government doesn't give in?

AFIK nobody is expecting a rowback on the 'levy' (absolute lie) decision. The protest is in order to highlight the inequitable nature of the pay cut. This point has been made ad nauseam in this thread and others, if you haven't got it by now...

As for the 'stop doing your jobs', well things will change quite dramatically soon enough. Our unions have decided that PT meetings will no longer be held outside school hours for example. Teachers will work to rule and this will make for a change believe me.

I don't have a job for life, few if any of my younger colleagues do either, and on part-time contracts you sometimes wonder if it's worth getting out of bed, the deductions list just gets longer but my rent etc stays the same. Ah but the holidays.

dolliemix

nesf wrote: »

So instead you're going to protest on a school day and disrupt classes for Leaving Cert students just before oral exams? What does that achieve that a weekend protest doesn't? Your views have been made clear on this.

What are you threatening, that you'll start striking regularly until the Government rows back on their decision? That you'll stop doing your jobs until the decision is reversed? How does this end if the Government doesn't give in?

Calm down. You obviously aren't a teacher. You're being completely melodramatic.

My students are ready to go in and do their oral tomorrow! I have been teaching them for six years. One day is not going to effect them!

We are protesting on their behalf because they don't have the power to do that.

nesf

freire wrote: »

AFIK nobody is expecting a rowback on the 'levy' (absolute lie) decision. The protest is in order to highlight the inequitable nature of the pay cut. This point has been made ad nauseam in this thread and others, if you haven't got it by now...

I was referring to the decisions that dolliemix listed, i.e. cutbacks in Special Needs etc.

freire wrote: »

I don't have a job for life, few if any of my younger colleagues do either, and on part-time contracts you sometimes wonder if it's worth getting out of bed, the deductions list just gets longer but my rent etc stays the same. Ah but the holidays.

Well of course few of your younger colleagues do either, that's how the system works. If we look at your older colleagues the vast majority have permanent positions. This is neither here nor there though. As much as I'd like to see permanent positions in teaching replaced with some form of performance measuring to get rid of the worst teachers and reward the better ones, it's not relevant to the strike at hand.

nesf

dolliemix wrote: »

Calm down. You obviously aren't a teacher. You're being completely melodramatic.

My students are ready to go in and do their oral tomorrow! I have been teaching them for six years. One day is not going to effect them!

We are protesting on their behalf because they don't have the power to do that.

Melodramatic? I asked you what does this achieve that a weekend protest doesn't. I think it's a fair question. You could hold a strike in support of the March 30th strike on a weekend and not disrupt any classes. Surely if the interests of students are at the forefront of your minds then this would be preferable?

dolliemix

nesf wrote: »

Melodramatic? I asked you what does this achieve that a weekend protest doesn't. I think it's a fair question. You could hold a strike in support of the March 30th strike on a weekend and not disrupt any classes. Surely if the interests of students are at the forefront of your minds then this would be preferable?

Sorry that I have to point out the obvious here :rolleyes: We did the weekend protest and nobody heard us!

Students interests are at the forefront of our minds every second of every day. We stand infront of them in our classrooms. We bring their work home with us and we plan where to go next and how we can do that with their best interests at heart before we see them again every day!

Nesf, it's very easy to judge when you're not in the thick of it. The irony of this is you seem to think you know what's best for our students when you really aren't qualified to. If you feel so strongly about students and their futures join us on the 30th March!

kathy2

I think setting up public against private thing is totally wrong.

Teachers work hard in a now extreme enviroment, any one listening to Joe Duffy during the week can hear the claim happy lunatics baying for the blood of individual teachers for the most petty of reasons.

Its actually as dangerous in schools now for teachers as it is for nurses on a Saturday night. The insane sense of entitlement and stupidity and greed that seems to have taken over people when it comes to public services is insane.

I think every teacher in the county should strike for danger money and as for this farce of a pension levy, that has no connection to a pension please.

I'll be marching

Lemming

Y'know ....

All of the teachers who are unhappy about being misled into strike action and that this does not represent you or your interests, you do indeed have a choice;

Break the union line.

it is woefully clear that they [the Unions] do not represent you, or your best interests, and are playing theatrical politics to justify their own existence and pay at the expense of yours in the long-run. If you really want them to actually start representing you, why aren't you putting your feet so far up the union leaderships collective arse that toecaps are replacing noses? Why this apathetic "shurre what I can do, they're all striking" mindset? Either send a message to them that you are unhappy with their deceitful leadership and want serious change and representation or leave. They can't function without members.

kathy2

I am a teacher and feel we have no choice.

We voted for strike, the union consists of mostly teachers and a few paid representatives and have regular meetings.

Our schools would be totally unbearable without them, I dont know what you are talking about:D

nesf

dolliemix wrote: »

Sorry that I have to point out the obvious here :rolleyes: We did the weekend protest and nobody heard us!

How do you know that? I heard you, and knew it happened...

dolliemix wrote: »

Nesf, it's very easy to judge when you're not in the thick of it. The irony of this is you seem to think you know what's best for our students when you really aren't qualified to.

Nice for you to assume I've never taught a class given that you know nothing of my qualifications, background, training or current occupation.*


*Not that I'm going to discuss them because they would make me far too identifiable. Third level is far harder to remain anonymous in than second.


Edit: Actually, look I'm tired of arguing about this. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. I can't see either of us convincing the other of their viewpoint.

Lemming

kathy2 wrote: »

I am a teacher and feel we have no choice.

You always. Always. ALLLLLLLLLLLWAYS. have a choice.

Quit with the "shurrre what can I do?" mentality. It'd be a start to this nation collectively fixing its disgustingly f*cking inept, cretinous, disfunctional self.

We voted for strike

Funny that a lot of your colleagues would seem to very much disagree with that sentiment of "we voted for strike", since they were evidently told fairy-tales about what was going on.

dolliemix

nesf wrote: »

How do you know that? I heard you, and knew it happened...



Nice for you to assume I've never taught a class given that you know nothing of my qualifications, background, training or current occupation.*


*Not that I'm going to discuss them because they would make me far too identifiable. Third level is far harder to remain anonymous in than second.


Edit: Actually, look I'm tired of arguing about this. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. I can't see either of us convincing the other of their viewpoint.

In that case, I would have thought you'd have a better understanding of why this strike is important! Third Level is going to feel the brunt of this in a year or two. There will be a huge knock-on effect.

Lemming

dolliemix wrote: »

In that case, I would have thought you'd have a better understanding of why this strike is important!

Likewise I'm utterly dismayed that supposedly intelligent people tasked with imparting knowledge to future generations don't have a better understanding of why this strike is both futile and counter-productive.

See below.

Third Level is going to feel the brunt of this in a year or two. There will be a huge knock-on effect.

Unless the serious budgetary deficit is addressed, there wont be much of a third-level left in a "year or two" since we'll be busy getting utterly, utterly raped by the IMF ...

nesf

dolliemix wrote: »

In that case, I would have thought you'd have a better understanding of why this strike is important! Third Level is going to feel the brunt of this in a year or two. There will be a huge knock-on effect.

Thing is, the money isn't there. Striking is pointless, the budget deficit is one third of budget expenditure.

nesf

nesf wrote: »

Thing is, the money isn't there. Striking is pointless, the budget deficit is one third of budget expenditure.

Case and point even Labour think the strikes should be called off: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0322/gilmoree.html

com7

typical of people with permanent jobs " we ve no choice but to strike " what crap the only people that will be hurt here is kids and parents who will have to make other arrangments to get their kids minded for the day " I HOPE YERE DOCKED FOR THE DAY !!!

Toto Wolfcastle

I'm certainly not 'judging' anyone. I'm looking at things from the point of view of the oral examiners who will have to fit upwards of 90 students in over 4 days instead of 5. Having spoken to those who have examined before, it seems that it is hard enough over 5 days. This is what I took from conversations I had with people long before any industrial action was considered. It is utterly unfair on both the students and the teachers to expect that the orals will be conducted in this way. I am aware that other public workers are taking industrial action on that same day, but there are different circumstances to consider here. Saying that the students had 6 years to prepare is simply not a good enough answer. The examiners will be absoultely wrecked and no one can say whether the standard of examination will be as high as previous years.

I would be in favour of some sort of protest against the cutbacks in education (not the pension levy, that is not going to change) but to do it on a crucial day in the academic calander is simply unfair.

There are few teachers in my school who is in favour of industrial action, be it on the 30th or any other day. It will not change anything, particularly because so many other workers are protesting on the same day. The government is not going to be able to satisfy everyone's demands, so will probably satisfy no ones.

I'm extremelly angry that both students and teachers will suffer because of the cutbacks, but making them suffer more is not the answer. I said in a previous post what I believe should have been done in protest all along and I stand by that.

freire

com7 wrote: »

typical of people with permanent jobs " we ve no choice but to strike " what crap the only people that will be hurt here is kids and parents who will have to make other arrangments to get their kids minded for the day " I HOPE YERE DOCKED FOR THE DAY !!!

Nice mix of begrudgery, ill-will, ignorance and condescension. I like to think my job is about more than looking after other people's kids. And of course we won't be paid for the day, your hopes are realised.

kathy2

In order to assist you in connecting to the right staff member, please listen to all options before making a selection:

To lie about why your child is absent, Press 1

To make excuses for why your child did not do his work, Press 2

To complain about what we do, Press 3

To cuss out staff members, Press 4

To ask why you didn't get needed information that was already enclosed in your newsletter and several bulletins mailed to you, Press 5

If you want us to raise your child, Press 6

If you want to reach out and touch, slap or hit someone, Press 7

To request another teacher for the third time this year, Press 8

To complain about bus transportation Press 9

To complain about school lunches Press 0

If you realize this is the real world and your child must be accountable/responsible for his/her own behavior, class work, homework, and that it's not the teachers fault for your child(ren)'s lack of effort---Hang up and have a nice day!!!

Toto Wolfcastle

Alright guys, can we play nicely please? There is no reason why a group of mature adults can't have a debate on this matter without resorting to childishness. Thank you.

dolliemix

janeybabe wrote: »

I'm certainly not 'judging' anyone. I'm looking at things from the point of view of the oral examiners who will have to fit upwards of 90 students in over 4 days instead of 5. Having spoken to those who have examined before, it seems that it is hard enough over 5 days. This is what I took from conversations I had with people long before any industrial action was considered. It is utterly unfair on both the students and the teachers to expect that the orals will be conducted in this way. I am aware that other public workers are taking industrial action on that same day, but there are different circumstances to consider here. Saying that the students had 6 years to prepare is simply not a good enough answer. The examiners will be absoultely wrecked and no one can say whether the standard of examination will be as high as previous years.

I would be in favour of some sort of protest against the cutbacks in education (not the pension levy, that is not going to change) but to do it on a crucial day in the academic calander is simply unfair.

There are few teachers in my school who is in favour of industrial action, be it on the 30th or any other day. It will not change anything, particularly because so many other workers are protesting on the same day. The government is not going to be able to satisfy everyone's demands, so will probably satisfy no ones.

I'm extremelly angry that both students and teachers will suffer because of the cutbacks, but making them suffer more is not the answer. I said in a previous post what I believe should have been done in protest all along and I stand by that.

I am an oral examiner Janeybabe. I am effected by this more than anyone else. My students who I have been working with for six years will lose one day of tuition due to this strike. They are fine about it! They see it as an opportunity to get more study and revision done! As I've said before, also, they will not have the distraction of classes and homework to deal with on the Monday. There is no point, claiming that this is a 'crucial day' and making this one day in the school year sound so important above all other days. It's a day like any other. Your job now, is to put the children's minds at ease. It will not effect their studies or their results.

As I said I am an oral examiner. I am due to examine 91 students on the week beginning 30th March. I will now have to examine them in four days instead of five. Yes, it's going to be hard and tiring, but not impossible. I will be wrecked like all the other examiners but at least I have a job! Why would you suggest that the examining standard won't be as high as previous years? I have been examining for six years now - My questions aren't going to be any different just because I'm going on strike on Monday. I'll take 23 students a day instead of 20. If those teachers were being honest they'd tell you that they were probably going to be finished on the Friday by lunch-time. Now that won't be the case - big deal! Why would you question the standard of the examinations, and scare people especially students, when your information is not based on fact.

We're protesting to make sure situations like this don't come in permanently. We're telling the Government that we are angry and that we won't be walked over. Believe me - you'll far more to complain about in your staffroom next year when the repercussions of these cutbacks begin to sink in for real in our classrooms. It will be a far more stressful environment than the one facing us today.

gaeilgegrinds

Com 7, do your homework and see how many teachers have been made permanent recently, it doesn't happen. Cutbacks in schools are atrocious, that's my main grievance, I see who is missing out. Why should students with special needs be hit?

Teacherman

kathy2 wrote: »

In order to assist you in connecting to the right staff member, please listen to all options before making a selection:

To lie about why your child is absent, Press 1

To make excuses for why your child did not do his work, Press 2

To complain about what we do, Press 3

To cuss out staff members, Press 4

To ask why you didn't get needed information that was already enclosed in your newsletter and several bulletins mailed to you, Press 5

If you want us to raise your child, Press 6

If you want to reach out and touch, slap or hit someone, Press 7

To request another teacher for the third time this year, Press 8

To complain about bus transportation Press 9

To complain about school lunches Press 0

If you realize this is the real world and your child must be accountable/responsible for his/her own behavior, class work, homework, and that it's not the teachers fault for your child(ren)'s lack of effort---Hang up and have a nice day!!!

Brillant loved it ! On a serious note-I voted yes and will support strike. If you voted no and are a member you should still support it. Union membership is not something to be tossed aside lightly. It was a Democratic Vote and sometimes you are on the winning side of a vote, sometimes a losing side.
If people quit the union (over this) or never join and everybody did the same then the Government would bring in the cult of Managerialism so prevalent in the UK-it destroyed their system.

Non union members should turn up for work instead on getting a day off-stand by your principles!

Teacherman

dolliemix wrote: »

I am an oral examiner Janeybabe. I am effected by this more than anyone else. My students who I have been working with for six years will lose one day of tuition due to this strike. They are fine about it! They see it as an opportunity to get more study and revision done! As I've said before, also, they will not have the distraction of classes and homework to deal with on the Monday. There is no point, claiming that this is a 'crucial day' and making this one day in the school year sound so important above all other days. It's a day like any other. Your job now, is to put the children's minds at ease. It will not effect their studies or their results.

As I said I am an oral examiner. I am due to examine 91 students on the week beginning 30th March. I will now have to examine them in four days instead of five. Yes, it's going to be hard and tiring, but not impossible. I will be wrecked like all the other examiners but at least I have a job! Why would you suggest that the examining standard won't be as high as previous years? I have been examining for six years now - My questions aren't going to be any different just because I'm going on strike on Monday. I'll take 23 students a day instead of 20. If those teachers were being honest they'd tell you that they were probably going to be finished on the Friday by lunch-time. Now that won't be the case - big deal! Why would you question the standard of the examinations, and scare people especially students, when your information is not based on fact.

We're protesting to make sure situations like this don't come in permanently. We're telling the Government that we are angry and that we won't be walked over. Believe me - you'll far more to complain about in your staffroom next year when the repercussions of these cutbacks begin to sink in for real in our classrooms. It will be a far more stressful environment than the one facing us today.

Government knew since January March 30th was day but yet went ahead and scheduled orals then-brillant. ICTU marked March 30th as day to vote on. (JAN)

Lemming

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Why should students with special needs be hit?

If you think that this strike is over students, or students with special needs, you are very much mistaken. If you do feel that this strike should be over the above, and you are doing so, your voice is being, and will be, lost. The unions most certainly are not striking over students in any way shape or form. They're striking to serve their own existence.

Did you ever stop to ask why there was a "one-size-fits-all" ballot? There's your first clue as to motive.

Don't pretend this is about special needs students or anything else. Because it's not. The same way the rallying cry at the last major strike was over better deals for this country, because it wasn't. It was over protectionism for a guilded "elite" of workers. To pretend it's for a noble cause is to sully the genuine needs of those in need.

As for why should students with special needs be hit? Why should anybody else be it? It's not fair, it's not right, but that's the way it is right now because there. Is. No. Money.

dolliemix

Lemming wrote: »

If you think that this strike is over students, or students with special needs, you are very much mistaken. If you do feel that this strike should be over the above, and you are doing so, your voice is being, and will be, lost. The unions most certainly are not striking over students in any way shape or form. They're striking to serve their own existence.

Did you ever stop to ask why there was a "one-size-fits-all" ballot? There's your first clue as to motive.

Don't pretend this is about special needs students or anything else. Because it's not. The same way the rallying cry at the last major strike was over better deals for this country, because it wasn't. It was over protectionism for a guilded "elite" of workers. To pretend it's for a noble cause is to sully the genuine needs of those in need.

As for why should students with special needs be hit? Why should anybody else be it? It's not fair, it's not right, but that's the way it is right now because there. Is. No. Money.

I just hope nobody actually believes this! Where are you getting this information? You'd be better off posting on the conspiracy theory thread! There is no substance to what you've just written

Lemming

dolliemix wrote: »

I just hope nobody actually believes this! Where are you getting this information? You'd be better off posting on the conspiracy theory thread! There is no substance to what you've just written

Was there, or was there not, a "one-size-fits-all" ballot presented to members of several teaching unions? i.e. no means to specifically state what they were balloting on other than "we are generally unhappy" ?

I seem to recall (either here, or on the politics forum I'm not sure which) several teachers (or people involved in the teaching profession to some degree or other) making note of the fact that they weren't even being told precisely what it was they were balloting on.

So once again, was there, or was ther not a one-size-fits-all ballot? Ironically such a perversion of a democratic tool seems to have missed your notice.

As for theatrical politics, it's as clear as day that this is what the union leadership are engaging in. They walked out of talks a few weeks ago so that they could say "we didn't back down, aren't we great" when they knew full well that cuts were inevitable and that they should have tried to hammer out cuts that weren't so deep or perhaps misguided. They sold you, and every other union member, down the river to justify their own existence. And are doing so again now.

But as with the saying that people get the politicians they deserve, the union members get the leaders they deserve as well.

ateam

dolliemix wrote: »

I just hope nobody actually believes this! Where are you getting this information? You'd be better off posting on the conspiracy theory thread! There is no substance to what you've just written

Lemming is bang on. What planet are you living on? Teachers are people and most people only care about their pay packets.

A permanent teacher does not care about education cut backs or should I say they do not care enough to strike over it. They are only having this strike because of the pension levy, they did not seek strike action last October when the pupil teacher ratio was increased and substitution payments were stopped. I wish teachers would just admit they're selfish and not promote this strike action as something about students. The student's with learning disabilities line is a complete smoke screen, no teacher cares about that. Just be honest and say it's about money.

Secondly, the idea that teachers can take unlimited career leave and retain their permanent position is disgraceful. That is one area that needs reform. A time limit should be introduced because it is unfair.

dolliemix

ateam wrote: »

Lemming is bang on. What planet are you living on? Teachers are people and most people only care about their pay packets.

A permanent teacher does not care about education cut backs or should I say they do not care enough to strike over it. They are only having this strike because of the pension levy, they did not seek strike action last October when the pupil teacher ratio was increased and substitution payments were stopped. I wish teachers would just admit they're selfish and not promote this strike action as something about students. The student's with learning disabilities line is a complete smoke screen, no teacher cares about that. Just be honest and say it's about money.

Secondly, the idea that teachers can take unlimited career leave and retain their permanent position is disgraceful. That is one area that needs reform. A time limit should be introduced because it is unfair.

Rubbish ! This is simply not true. The cutbacks will effect us in our classrooms on a day to day basis. Overcrowding in classes and lack of special needs assistance can be hugely stressful for a teacher. It will place more demands on teachers when we are already working to the max!

It's very easy to state that we are naive and don't know what we're doing. The several teachers, who Lemming says didn't know what they were voting for, could have done more research. Attended some branch meetings. There are plenty of teachers out there, who sit and moan about the union not working for them etc but haven't contributed in any way themselves.

This strike is not about the pension levy. We've already been hit with that (twice). We're willing to take a pay cut if we can be assured that it's not just us getting hit. Inspite of the recession there are still a lot of very wealthy people in this country who aren't paying taxes or getting their wages cut

spurious

ateam wrote: »

A permanent teacher does not care about education cut backs or should I say they do not care enough to strike over it.

Which permanent teacher is that?

ateam wrote: »

Secondly, the idea that teachers can take unlimited career leave and retain their permanent position is disgraceful.

If that were the case, it would be disgraceful - unfortunately it's not the case.

Trotter

ateam wrote: »

A permanent teacher does not care about education cut backs or should I say they do not care enough to strike over it.

I'm a permanent teacher. I care about the cut backs and how much less time I have with each individual child because of class sizes etc. I care enough to strike over it.

So. What you've written is obviously driven by some other motive, because its certainly not driven by fact of any kind.

ateam wrote: »

The student's with learning disabilities line is a complete smoke screen, no teacher cares about that.

Utter rubbish..

TheDriver

don't you just love people like ateam who obviously have no idea about teaching and have massive chip on their shoulder because some teacher sometime gave them a hard time and now has an axe to grind because naturally we have the cushiest job around! How come this forum draws the most extreme teacher haters who don't care about debate and throw around the usual IBEC type statements

Toto Wolfcastle

If you have a problem with a post please report it. Back on topic please.

ateam

TheDriver wrote: »

don't you just love people like ateam who obviously have no idea about teaching and have massive chip on their shoulder because some teacher sometime gave them a hard time and now has an axe to grind because naturally we have the cushiest job around! How come this forum draws the most extreme teacher haters who don't care about debate and throw around the usual IBEC type statements

For your information, I am a teacher, but that's irrelevant. If you feel that teachers are the only ones who can comment on the matter, then you're as ignorant as those you're giving out about.

I experienced the reaction of the October budget, I saw the lack of teaching staff at the protest march in December. 6 staff turned up and why? Because the majority of staff are permanent and don't care.

Now I have no doubt in my mind that they're are many decent, noble selfless teachers who genuinely are not interested in their salaries, I really do. But my point is that the majority don't care about anything other than their wages every fortnight - the posters complaining about my comments may be the genuinely interested people, but they need to realise as presumably intelligent people that teachers are like every body else - they only care about their wages.

And by the way I don't find anything wrong with it, I just wish people would be more honest and admit it.

ateam

Trotter wrote: »

I'm a permanent teacher. I care about the cut backs and how much less time I have with each individual child because of class sizes etc. I care enough to strike over it.

So. What you've written is obviously driven by some other motive, because its certainly not driven by fact of any kind.




Utter rubbish..

"Utter rubbish" doesn't address the point.

DJDC

I experienced the reaction of the October budget, I saw the lack of teaching staff at the protest march in December. 6 staff turned up and why? Because the majority of staff are permanent and don't care.

I think thats the proof right there that the main reason for the teachers strike is pay cuts not education cuts. Its just like the other unions trying to rally the general public around the idea that the government were in bed with the developers and banks. Its bad enough all the public sector unions to be calling strikes over their over-inflated highest in EU unsustainable pay when govt finances are in meltdown. But hiding behind smoke screens like education cuts that were announced last Oct is desperately low shameful tactics.

Powerhouse

Lemming wrote: »

If you think that this strike is over students, or students with special needs, you are very much mistaken. If you do feel that this strike should be over the above, and you are doing so, your voice is being, and will be, lost. The unions most certainly are not striking over students in any way shape or form. They're striking to serve their own existence.

Did you ever stop to ask why there was a "one-size-fits-all" ballot? There's your first clue as to motive.

Don't pretend this is about special needs students or anything else. Because it's not. The same way the rallying cry at the last major strike was over better deals for this country, because it wasn't. It was over protectionism for a guilded "elite" of workers. To pretend it's for a noble cause is to sully the genuine needs of those in need.

As for why should students with special needs be hit? Why should anybody else be it? It's not fair, it's not right, but that's the way it is right now because there. Is. No. Money.

"Why was there a one-size fits all ballot?" There's no need to stop to ask this at all as the answer is obvious. It is a potential national strike involving all unions, whether public or private sector, so one size does indeed fit all.

It is a matter for the members of each union to make themselves aware of the issues relating to their own particular cases.

And no matter how dramatically you try to present the notion that there is no money, it is absolute balderdash. There is money, bags of it - people are not being paid in smarties just yet. There is simply a lot less money that there was, and the argument now is where should that remaining money be best spent and where, in the context of retaining important social commitments, (which special needs should be in any civilised society - who cares how big my next car is, or where I can afford to go on holidays?) should spending cease.

Teacher unions are as entitled to voice an opinion on this as anyone else. If you think it is not fair and not right to hit students with special needs then you should be arguing instead for money to be saved in places where it would be fair and would not hit the vulnerable in society that the Minister for Finance purported to protect in the budget, or at least in the budget speech.

Simply stating there is no money and accepting anything that goes as a result is a lazy populist cop out.

gaeilgegrinds

Regarding who cares about S.E.N. student, me! I deal with them everyday and this, 'there is no money,' attitude vexes me. There's money for bonuses for bankers! So there is money, it's just not used correctly!

ateam

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Regarding who cares about S.E.N. student, me! I deal with them everyday and this, 'there is no money,' attitude vexes me. There's money for bonuses for bankers! So there is money, it's just not used correctly!

Doesn't that money come from the private sector, sort of different?

I don't know, there has to be cuts and people are going to suffer. If we say everyone is going to suffer, presumably those with special educational needs will also have to suffer. That's life.

There are far too many special needs assistants going about now in schools, that is an area that has got out of control in the past few years.

E.T.

ateam wrote: »

There are far too many special needs assistants going about now in schools, that is an area that has got out of control in the past few years.

Are you joking? Where on earth did you get that idea? SNAs are only given to children with huge physical and behavioural needs (NOT educational needs) and parents and schools have to provide unbelievable amounts of proof and paperwork - they're not automatically granted, even if a child has been receiving major medical attention since birth! We have children with major physical disabilities in our school (toileting needs, wheelchair needs - this kind of level) SHARING an SNA. Lots of kids have shared SNAs, and we've already been warned there's going to be huge cutbacks in this area. If you speak to the parent of any child with an SNA you'll realise how impossible it is without them. Please research important issues like this before posting misinformation on a public forum again.

nesf

E.T. wrote: »

Are you joking? Where on earth did you get that idea? SNAs are only given to children with huge physical and behavioural needs (NOT educational needs) and parents and schools have to provide unbelievable amounts of proof and paperwork - they're not automatically granted, even if a child has been receiving major medical attention since birth! We have children with major physical disabilities in our school (toileting needs, wheelchair needs - this kind of level) SHARING an SNA. Lots of kids have shared SNAs, and we've already been warned there's going to be huge cutbacks in this area. If you speak to the parent of any child with an SNA you'll realise how impossible it is without them. Please research important issues like this before posting misinformation on a public forum again.

Are you saying that we should separately employ an SNA for each individual child?

E.T.

YES YES YES YES YES. If you had a child who is permanently wheelchair bound, and has limited mobility in their arms, how would you feel if they had to share an SNA with another child with a similar level of care needs? This is quite often the norm in schools around the country. If you're lucky, both children will be in the same classroom, I know of schools where an SNA has to work with children in different rooms!

nesf

E.T. wrote: »

YES YES YES YES YES. If you had a child who is permanently wheelchair bound, and has limited mobility in their arms, how would you feel if they had to share an SNA with another child with a similar level of care needs? This is quite often the norm in schools around the country. If you're lucky, both children will be in the same classroom, I know of schools where an SNA has to work with children in different rooms!

Ok. How much are SNAs paid? How many SNAs are needed? What's the cut off for "one SNA per child" level of support? What about kids who are only paralysed but have full use of their arms? What about kids with behavioural/cognitive difficulties?

E.T.

I can't tell you how many SNAs are needed - it depends on the amount of children int the education system with special care needs. The cut off for "one SNA per child" seems to vary, you'd have to ask a SENO as they make all the decisions (Special Needs Officer who comes to the school to check whether they department will allocate an SNA - written psychologist's, physiotherapist's, occupational therapist's recommendations are not taken as full proof, not to mind teachers' opinions!)

This is the department of education's official guideline on application for an SNA:
"Applications for a Special Needs Assistant should be considered where, for example, a
pupil has a significant medical need for such assistance, a significant impairment of
physical or sensory function or where their behaviour is such that they are a danger to
themselves or to other pupils."

Note that this says "should be considered" - it doesn't say anything about SNAs being allocated automatically in these cases.

Children with behavioural difficulties will get an SNA if they are a danger to themselves/others. This is open to interpretation - ie we as teachers might see punching, kicking, throwing objects as dangerous, but the government in their wisdom don't always see this - great fun in a class of 35+.

Cognitive is such a broad term that again, I can't answer your question fully as it depends on the individual. If you mean a physical cognitive difficulty such as hearing or visual impairment, a child might qualify for part time SNA assistance if it affects their mobility. If it is a cognitive problem which affects learning eg a mild general learning disability, an SNA will not be granted.

nesf

Part of what I was getting at is this: the cost of providing an SNA per child. In 2001 the SNA scale started at €17,319 and topped out at €28,066. By 2008 this had (with the increment) increased to starting at €23,813 and topping out at €38,591.

This is an increase of 37.5% at the tops of the scales over just seven years.

If you want to know why there isn't an SNA per child, this is the reason. We can't afford to throw money at the situation like this and inflate salaries by this much and still provide the breadth of service that our children need.

In the UK, the salaries for these kinds of position vary between £11K and £21K a year (from http://careersadvice.direct.gov.uk/helpwithyourcareer/jobprofiles/profiles/profile1275/).

ytareh

QUOTE

This is an increase of 37.5% at the tops of the scales over just seven years.

ENDQUOTE

Dont you realise that this was barely , if even , keeping up with inflation (running at 5% pa).Besides which private sector salaries were leagues ahead of the public sector.Come on !You know how far behind we were left during the Celtic Tiger years .I had a similarly (or lower ) qualified friend who works in construction .When I was on about 20k he was on 45k ,when I was on about 37k he was on 100k and of course 'bonuses' sometimes went into five figures .(We used get 27 euro at Christmas but that seems to have gone by the wayside along the way !)Benchmarking was a farce again barely,if even, keeping up with inflation .
And before you ask , YES he's still got his job!!!

ateam

E.T. wrote: »

Are you joking? Where on earth did you get that idea? SNAs are only given to children with huge physical and behavioural needs (NOT educational needs) and parents and schools have to provide unbelievable amounts of proof and paperwork - they're not automatically granted, even if a child has been receiving major medical attention since birth! We have children with major physical disabilities in our school (toileting needs, wheelchair needs - this kind of level) SHARING an SNA. Lots of kids have shared SNAs, and we've already been warned there's going to be huge cutbacks in this area. If you speak to the parent of any child with an SNA you'll realise how impossible it is without them. Please research important issues like this before posting misinformation on a public forum again.

The ASTI has come out and indicated that cut backs can be made in the SNA area to save money. Are you seriously suggesting that every child with some form of mental or physical disability should have a dedicated SNA? Not only do I find that expensive, but I find it to be going against what Ireland and most Western countries are aspiring to in recent years - that of Inclusion in education. An SNA separates a child and makes them stand out. I know of plenty of schools where SNAs have been appointed and the student doesn't come into school for months. In one school the SNA comes in, cleans the kitchen and goes home. That is not value for money.

Secondly, the growth of SNAs in schools has led to teachers getting lazier and almost imposing the duty of teaching upon the SNA.

Thirdly, to fund SNAs for every child with special educational needs in the country would cost an enormous amount - are you prepared to pay higher taxes for more SNAs? Get real.

Fourthly, I do see a place for SNAs in Irish schools. I'm making the point that there's too many nowadays and in many staff rooms around the country, SNAs outnumber the teachers.

You may have entrenched views on education, but perhaps it's time you open your eyes to the current economic recession and seriously assess your views and attitude.

You have already indicated to me on a previous post that in some way I am unqualified to give an opinion on educational matters. What makes you qualified or better to contribute to the discussion than other people.

Matthew712

Spending money on SNA's at the expense of qualified teachers, worsens the PTR across the board. Which impacts on the performance of the students who are meant to eventually complete on a world forum to generate wealth which can then be used to provide an enhanced service for all. SNA's were a cheap solution to the problem the Synott case caused Bertie

Lady_North

ateam wrote: »

The ASTI has come out and indicated that cut backs can be made in the SNA area to save money. Are you seriously suggesting that every child with some form of mental or physical disability should have a dedicated SNA? Not only do I find that expensive, but I find it to be going against what Ireland and most Western countries are aspiring to in recent years - that of Inclusion in education. An SNA separates a child and makes them stand out. I know of plenty of schools where SNAs have been appointed and the student doesn't come into school for months. In one school the SNA comes in, cleans the kitchen and goes home. That is not value for money.


QUOTE]


Inclusion is not sticking a child down the back of the classroom and ignoring them........... This will happen to many children without an sna in the room.

Any sna who comes in to clean the kitchen and goes home again should not be employed as an sna because that is not her job. She is letting everyone down by agreeing to do such tasks.

The sna is there to assist a child not clean up after teachers. There are so many children who would not be able for mainstream school without an sna, at least they are enabled with the sna support. I have never seen a child isolated because the sna is working with them. Any good sna will make sure the child is fully intigrated into the classroom.