So Mary Lou Knocked on My Door.....

dlofnep

Agent Smith wrote: »

When you lie down with dogs, you end up with fleas

I'll keep that in mind incase any blueshirts knock on my door for the elections.

blinding

blinding wrote: »

The IRA that was/is associated with Sinn Féin are no longer involved in military action or organised actions of any kind. They are commited to peaceful methods of achieving the goals of Sinn Féin.

In my opinion Sinn Féin have shown their commitment to peaceful means by continuing with the peace process over the long term.

Do you complain when FF,FG,Labour commemorate some of their people from the past that were involved in violent action.

Agent Smith wrote: »

When you lie down with dogs, you end up with fleas

That can be said of nearly all political parties in Ireland if you examine their history in detail

jimmmy

blinding wrote: »

That can be said of nearly all political parties in Ireland if you examine their history in detail

If you go back far enough. But still 2 or 3 or 4 wrongs do not make a right.

The t-shirts referred to on the Sinn Fein website had IRA in very large letters and made reference to the PIRA campaign of the eighties , not the old IRA of nearly 100 years ago.

djpbarry

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Anytime I have seen her on a tv debate she always seems well able to handle any question thrown at her.

You might provide an example of one such debate? As many other posters have said, I've yet to hear any convincing policy proposals from Sinn Fein; they're a one trick pony.

old boy

as for sinn fein, only for the troubles kickstarted there would be many 2nd and 3rd class citizens in northern ireland, i can hazzard a guess that some of the posters there never had a gun poked in through the drivers window of the car they were traveling in, and a cockney or gordie never told them to fcuk off home to their own country, or did they try telling them that they were not in there own country, lets not be too selective here and stick to the subjuct of the thread,

jimmmy

I only ever had the upmost courtesy from any cockneys or geordies I met in N. Ireland, and I met many, probably long before Mary Lou ever visited the place. The only guns I ever saw poked in through the drivers window was in the movies. To get back to the subject of the thread, as another poster wrote, I've yet to hear any convincing policy proposals from Sinn Fein; they're a one trick pony.

bmaxi

In all my travels across the border and there have been many, I've never had a bad experience with the security forces. I am not an apologist for them, I realise there are rotten apples in every barrel.
The closest I have come to harm was, when driving back from Newry, a bomb went off killing a judge and his wife. Myself, my wife and my 2 year old daughter had passed the spot not 20 seconds beforehand and several people travelling behind were injured. This bomb, we heard afterwards, was set off by remote control and no doubt this was seen as " acceptable collateral damage" but forgive me if I'm not enamoured of the IRA or their fellow travellers.

meathstevie

The party that's been involved in organised crime more than any other party in the last few decades and has also been shown to be involved in such by various tribunals and enquiries is not Sinn Fein. It all depends on how many of you deem corruption to be organised crime. In my books it is and on a society level it is one of the most nefarious forms of crime.

jimmmy

meathstevie wrote: »

The party that's been involved in organised crime

I do not think you can equate people ( a minority of the part, in all fairness ) getting " digouts" with the activities of those ( who committed murder etc ) glorified on certain t-shirts ?

jimmmy

bmaxi wrote: »

In all my travels across the border and there have been many, I've never had a bad experience with the security forces. I am not an apologist for them, I realise there are rotten apples in every barrel.

Agreed 100% and thats my experience, as a southener, too. In fact during the 70's, 80's and 90's I was amazed and impressed with their courage, courtesy, professionalism and good manners, given the threat they lived with 24/7.

meathstevie

I'm not referring to a Drumcondra resident getting a few bob from his mates.
I'm not trying to compare any crime with another crime. I'm just stating that it's not only the spectacular headline catching stuff that is important and bad for society. Quite often the headline catching stuff is what happens when society is broken down to an extent and corruption is often a contributary factor to these breakdowns. look at Zimbabwe for an extreme example.

jimmmy

meathstevie wrote: »

I'm not referring to a Drumcondra resident getting a few bob from his mates.
I'm not trying to compare any crime with another crime.

But you are trying to compare the corruption of some people in one party to activities during the troubles ( as glorified on the front of t-shirts which are still for sale on the website of one political party )?

Svalbard

Nodin wrote: »

......glad to see you've the real issues to the fore there.

Well, it says a lot about where SF stand. Wearing an IRA t-shirt would be highly offensive to many people.

blinding wrote: »

The IRA that was/is associated with Sinn Féin are no longer involved in military action or organised actions of any kind. They are commited to peaceful methods of achieving the goals of Sinn Féin.

In my opinion Sinn Féin have shown their commitment to peaceful means by continuing with the peace process over the long term.

Do you complain when FF,FG,Labour commemorate some of their people from the past that were involved in violent action.

Actually, the Easter Rising commemoration made me uncomfortable. Am I the only one?

I am glad the 26 counties are independent of Britain and I know that that freedom came at a price. But when I see similar disputes happening around the world, where innocent people are killed, I can't help but see them as unnecessary. Lets not forget that those who orgainsed the rising had no mandate to speak for the Irish people and were widely condemned at the time.
I suppose the main difference between their actions and later (and current) terrorist actions is that civilians were not intentionally targeted.

Its a pity we can't celebrate our independence struggle in the same way the USA can - I guess all that has happened since has tainted it. I'm not sure why, but as i said I have mixed feelings about it.

SF, FF, FG - all have questionable pasts. I suppose the question about SF is "is the past really in the past?". How many years must pass before they are seen as a 'legitimate' political party by all? At what point did FF & FG stop having links to violence?

CSC

I have heard that Mary Lou is not too popular among republican ranks. I believe she only joined SF after she wasn't picked to run for FF in a local election (I'm not 100% sure of the accuracy of this as it is something I read on the internet but she was defintely a member of FF in her younger days).
I have always found her to be one of the SF's better representatives and can imagine her doing very well.

Liam Byrne

population wrote: »

Also she said to me she was not opposed to laying off underperforming PS workers.

How about laying off underperforming TDs and Ministers ?

I'd love to see how she'd be in a party where she didn't have to defend the indefensible, but from what I've seen she's been weak enough......that said, most of it is because of hypocritical stances (e.g. complaining on the Last Word that the Lisbon treaty would open this island an "army" that the people didn't want).

So I'd find it hard to take her seriously after some of the stuff she's said to date.

Liam Byrne

meathstevie wrote: »

The party that's been involved in organised crime more than any other party in the last few decades and has also been shown to be involved in such by various tribunals and enquiries is not Sinn Fein. It all depends on how many of you deem corruption to be organised crime. In my books it is and on a society level it is one of the most nefarious forms of crime.

I agree completely and while taking the difference in the levels of crime into account, we're far too accepting of white-collar crime.

That said, I didn't see Fianna Failure's website selling t-shirts with Bertie's & Charlie's faces on them saying "no surrender" or "we're still screwing the people, y'know".....or even Willie O'Dea with the gun......

Having it going on is one thing
Condoning it is another
And selling crap that celebrates crime is another entirely

edevelera60

Camelot wrote: »

I have listened to her in many TV & Radio debates over the last few years, and I have found her to be one of the most intellectually lacking & 'vacuous' performers I have ever witnessed (admittedly in a clear voice)!

The woman never actually says anything, she predominantly talks in 'SF soundbites', and once you take out all of this 'SF' window dressing you are left with . . . "Let me be perfectly clear about this" > "We are for all the people all of the time" > "My vote is no more important than your vote" > "We demand equality for all the people of Ireland" etc etc etc :rolleyes:

Loads of the bleedin obvious, with absolutely no bleedin content at all, and if she was the last so called politician on the Planet I still wouldn't vote for her.

I am sure you would vote for Paisley and co instead and all they can ever say is ......NO, No, No

jimmmy

no paramilitary t-shirts t-shirts for sale on his or their political websites...so why does Sinn Fein sell IRA t-shirts ?

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

Why are they still selling IRA t-shirts on their website so ?

Why is this a problem? They supported the armed struggle after all.

If they removed them, doubtless we'd hear how they were trying to deny the past and perform a whitewash.

jimmmy wrote: »

I mind my own business

Nice of you to be so selective

Svalbard wrote:

Actually, the Easter Rising commemoration made me uncomfortable. Am I the only one?

vs

Svalbard wrote:

Its a pity we can't celebrate our independence struggle in the same way the USA can

..you mean without apologising for it? If you've problems with a parade and a flyby, I can't see why you'd be comfortable with the full-on American approach.

blinding

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I agree completely and while taking the difference in the levels of crime into account, we're far too accepting of white-collar crime.

That said, I didn't see Fianna Failure's website selling t-shirts with Bertie's & Charlie's faces on them saying "no surrender" or "we're still screwing the people, y'know".....or even Willie O'Dea with the gun......

Having it going on is one thing
Condoning it is another
And selling crap that celebrates crime is another entirely

No surrender sounds more like a unionist/loyalist slogan.
What sites are you looking at.

Liam Byrne

blinding wrote: »

No surrender sounds more like a unionist/loyalist slogan.
What sites are you looking at.

If you read again, you'll notice that I quoted fictional ones in relation to FF to drive home the point as to what was "acceptable" to trumpet, and what was not.

Mind you, since you've raised that angle, please see other threads : I don't take "sides". Unionist/loyalists terrorist memorabilia and IRA memorabilia are all the same to me - celebrating murder.

Nodin

Well, all war is some form of sanctioned 'murder'. Unfortunately its occassionally nessecary.

jimmmy

Thats what Bin Laden thought when his planes crashed in to the twin towers too.

You either are for terrorism or against it.

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

You either are for terrorism or against it.

Unforunately my dimension has more shades than black and white.

jimmmy

Nodin wrote: »

Unforunately my dimension has more shades than black and white.

Yet in relation to the IRA you wrote "Well, all war is some form of sanctioned 'murder'". Obviously you think what went on in this island in the late 20th century was "war". I do not think it fitted the UN definition of war. Even if one political party sells t-shirts condoning / glorifying one armed group in that particular "war".

Nodin

You're entitled to your opinion. However, others disagree, hence the "vital" issue of the t-shirts.

Svalbard

Nodin wrote: »

..you mean without apologising for it? If you've problems with a parade and a flyby, I can't see why you'd be comfortable with the full-on American approach.

I mean I'd like to be able to celebrate the independence of our nation without reservation, as the Americans do, but I can't.

RedPlanet

jimmmy wrote: »

I do not think it fitted the UN definition of war.

The UN doesn't have a definition of war.
There are international treaties, that define "wars of aggression" perhaps that is what you refer.
Can you name a single insurrection, or revolution that would fit your convenient definition?

jimmmy

RedPlanet wrote: »

The UN doesn't have a definition of war.
There are international treaties, that define "wars of aggression" perhaps that is what you refer.

A small minority of civilian dressed people putting bombs in restaurants (eg Le Mon ) , in shopping centres ( eg Omagh, Manchester ), in pubs , in chip shops, shotting retired people in the back, etc was not a war. It was terrorism in the minds of most people. The other side eg UVF were not soldiers or warriors either - they were terrorists.
Anyway, I have written enough on this subject- this is my last post on this thread.

gaf1983

Veering off the original post which was about a conversation the poster had with Mary Lou MacDonald, there is a story in today's Limerick Leader about an exchange between Sinn Féin's Maurice Quinlivan and Fianna Fáil's Willie O'Dea which reinforces the typical viewpoints that FF are involved in white-collar corruption while SF are tainted by (green?)-collar violence.

Quinlivan says he may sue O'Dea over 'brothel' comment

Published Date: 10 March 2009
By Mike Dwane

SINN Fein's Maurice Quinlivan says he is considering legal action against Willie O'Dea after the Minister for Defence claimed he part-owned a Clancy Strand apartment where a brothel was discovered in Garda raids.
The explosive row erupted after Mr Quinlivan accused Minister O'Dea of abusing the privileges of his office by having civil servants engage in his constituency work at huge expense to the taxpayer.

"Unsolicited" correspondence from the Minister to a Caherdavin resident making a planning application was on Department of Defence-headed paper.

"The Minister is obviously entitled to engage in this type of nonsense and 'ambulance chasing' if he wishes but we, the taxpayer, should not have to fund it," Mr Quinlivan said.

Last night Minister O'Dea admitted the letter to his Caherdavin constituent "shouldn't have come out on department notepaper. That is incorrect. I've been doing for years this since I first got into the Dail, writing to people on the planning lists to see if I can be of assistance to them and I often get a response," he said.

But the Minister then delivered a withering blast to Sinn Fein and Mr Quinlivan.

"They are running a big campaign. The money from the Northern Bank must be stretching fairly far. Quote me on that. While occasionally we send out letters to planning applicants on the wrong paper, we have never been involved with anyone who shot anybody, or robbed banks, or kidnapped people. I suppose I'm going a bit too far when I say this but I'd like to ask Mr Quinlivan is the brothel still closed?"

Minister O'Dea was referring to a recent case where three Brazilian women were discovered by gardai to be running a brothel from a Clancy Strand apartment owned by Mr Quinlivan's brother, and former Brixton Prison escapee, Nessan.

"The property I own," Mr Quinlivan responded this Tuesday, "is the house I live in and the bank owns most of that."

In fact, he said, he had an "ideological objection" to accumulating property. "But yes that story is being put around that I own the property, which is not true. Dissident republicans are involved in spreading the story and so is Minister O'Dea. He is obviously going around the town trying to slander me and is involved in every kind of dirty trick.

"We all know he is under a lot of pressure and we'll see what people think of Fianna Fail in the local elections but he does not deal with the issue of his wasteful expenditure."

Mr Quinlivan, who was recently elected Sinn Fein's joint national treasurer, noted that Sinn Fein publishes annual accounts, whereas Fianna Fail didn't.

"We all know that the brown envelopes and corruption are associated with one party above all others, and that's Fianna Fail," he said.

Instead of "slandering" political opponents, Minister O'Dea "would be better off explaining to his constituents why so much money is wasted" on his staff working on local matters. The Minister had recently confirmed in a parliamentary reply to Sinn Fein's Arthur Morgan that he had "six civil servants working solely on constituency matters at a total cost to taxpayer of between €165,000 and €225,000 a year".

"This is a real waste of taxpayer's money. I'm sure the 10 special needs teachers who will shortly lose their jobs in Limerick will understand that the real priority right now must be Minister O'Dea – for now the children must wait, so must the sick, and the recently unemployed who are waiting more than 10 weeks to get any payments
due to staff shortages must wait. The real priority now must be the Minister. Thank God he's managed to secure perhaps a quarter of a million of funding for himself," Mr Quinlivan said.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Quinlivan-says-he-may-sue.5055559.jp