Heuston South Quarter

Paul F

Hello

My name is Paul Fanning, I am one of the directors of Rhatigan Commercial Developments Ltd, the developers of HSQ and also the author of Rent2Purchase.ie for HSQ.

I have read with great interest all of your comments in respect of the development and in particular the rent2Purchase scheme.

We have as a company, taken on board all of those comments relating to HSQ, and as a result of these, we have decided to make an amendment to the car parking rates being charged.

Car parking will now be available to all occupants of the rent2purchase scheme at €50 per month instead of €100 per month.

If the occupier of the apartment elects to purchase that apartment, then they will have the option to purchase the car space at the same time. The cost of the car parking space will be the prevailing market rate at that time subject to a maximum price of €35,000.

I would be delighted to answer any of your queries regarding rent2purchase.ie on an individual basis and can be contacted on pfanning@rhatigandevelopments.ie

Kind Regards


Paul Fanning

markpb

Paul F wrote: »

My name is Paul Fanning, I am one of the directors of Rhatigan Commercial Developments Ltd, the developers of HSQ and also the author of Rent2Purchase.ie for HSQ.

Hi Paul,

Fair play to you for coming on here and posting! Can I ask one question - if all the apartments don't sell (and I hope they do), will your company contribute fully to the service charges due from those unsold apartments or will you let the management company soak up the loss?

Thanks!

quozl

From their website: "Who says rent is dead money? Not at Heuston South Quarter."

Oh honestly, you know who says that? Imbeciles do.

If you pay 12grand in rent in a year instead of purchasing a 400K property that decreases in value by 6% (that's even conservative) you have saved 12 grand!

Your land-lord is paying you twelve grand to rent instead of buy

There are more keenly priced, better located apartments in Dublin. This is an attempt by the developers to get people to pay over-market value rents and then try to tie them in to purchase a highly over-priced devaluing asset because they won't want to walk away from the year or two years of rent.

if you put 36K of rent into the property over 3 years, then why not just buy a property that is 36K cheaper? There is a 5th floor 2bed listed at 465K on their site, that is a joke. Even at a future 10% off, that values it at 418.5K, no wonder they can offer 10% off!

Here is a better located 2bed in a good quality complex:
http://www.myhome.ie/residential/search/brochure/24-the-dickensthe-gasworks-ballsbridge-dublin-co&-city/BXCTX377724
And they're only asking 390K, and IF it goes sale-agreed, I doubt it'll be close to that asking.

I'd advise renting for a couple of years (in a better location, for less), and saving.

If you can't afford to rent and save a deposit then you can't afford the equivalent sized morgage.

There is good news however, the irish property market is in freefall, so by simply renting and waiting you'll be decreasing the eventual size of your mortgage.

http://www.treesdontgrowtothesky.com/cache/daft_weekly_change.png

The drops are actually speeding up. There is empirical data, not marketing bumpf from people with a vested interest in selling you this.

And, I can think of a dozen real reasons for the economic downturn to get worse, and I can't think of one for it not to. Can you?

I wouldn't touch this scheme with a bargepole, and I would try my best to persuade anybody I cared the slightest about to do the same.

I think it's that poor that I'm even willing to put effort in to dissuade complete strangers on the internet.

Heuston South Quarter, right?

Check out the for-sale history of these 3 apartments in there:
http://propertyvultures.game-server.cc:8080/student/servlet/MySQLsalehistory?id=195641
http://propertyvultures.game-server.cc:8080/student/servlet/MySQLsalehistory?id=195642
http://propertyvultures.game-server.cc:8080/student/servlet/MySQLsalehistory?id=195643

Only 2 weeks ago the asking price for these three properties was dropped by 25%! If you'd put a years worth of over-priced rental into this scheme before a drop like that, then you would have gained nothing. You would have actually lost money because of the over-priced rents.

How much of a drop is requried for it to wipe out your rent paid to a certain date, and what do you think the chances of that happening are?

I've not got a crystal ball, but personally i'd guess near-certainty.

Actually, imo they have all been pre-wiped out for you by the fact that 90% of the current asking price is already over-priced. Way over-priced. This is a ridiculous scheme. Do not fall for it.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

Fair play to you for coming on here and posting! Can I ask one question - if all the apartments don't sell (and I hope they do), will your company contribute fully to the service charges due from those unsold apartments or will you let the management company soak up the loss?

Paul replied to my post by PM and confirmed that the developer would indeed be contributing fully to the service charges for unsold units. If someone does decide to buy in HSQ, they should make sure to get this in writing.

kmick

I think the scheme is a good one but as always at the moment the price is negotiable. I would be looking for discount of 15% on the purchase price before I would even think about it. The location of the apartments is great but will they ever get finished?

gazzer

You would be a lunatic to buy one of these apartments in my opinion.
The cheapest monthly rent I can find for these apartments is 1350 euro a month. Add the management fees and you are talking around 1550 a month.

On daft.ie at the moment there are 138 2 bed properties that are asking for a rent of 1000 month or less. By renting one of these you would be able to save 550 a month which would give you a deposit of just under 20,000 in 3 years time. That will be plenty for a deposit for a house or apartment at that stage. Rent and house prices are only going to go down for the foreseeable furture. Im sure they will level out and then start to increase again but that wont be for a good few years yet.

peter83

gazzer wrote: »

You would be a lunatic to buy one of these apartments in my opinion.
The cheapest monthly rent I can find for these apartments is 1350 euro a month. Add the management fees and you are talking around 1550 a month.

Management fees are handled by the "landlord" until such a time that the "tenant" decides to purchase the property.

johnnyskeleton

Paul F wrote: »

We have as a company, taken on board all of those comments relating to HSQ, and as a result of these, we have decided to make an amendment to the car parking rates being charged.

Why not take on board my views in relation to HSQ?

I think that a two bed apartment in Kilmainham should sell for €150k fully fitted out and with a parking space.

Drop the price to those levels and I'll call in and have a look.

Seriously though, if a developer says to me that I can pay market rent on a property (your rents are quite high by the way) for 3 years, then use that money in 3 years time as a deposit, and if it drops any further (up to 10%) you'll pay that too, but if the price goes up it's todays "low, low price", the only reason the developer would offer me such a sweet, one sided deal is because he knows that the prices are going to drop by more than 10%, and in 3 years time he hopes I will be emotionally attached to the property and don't want to see my 3 years of rent turned into dead money.

Deny that.

krugerrand

If was a first time buyer at the moment and looking for an apartment in the city centre I'd seriously consider this development at Heuston South Quarter in the context of the rent-to-buy terms offered. It's a great way of saving for a deposit.

I think it's highly misleading, malicious and clearly a scare-tactic for anybody put forward the theory that the only reason the developer is offering the scheme is that the developer is sure that the prices will be more than 10% lower in three years time. Nobody actually knows that the prices will be in three years time. The obvious reason the developer has offered this rent-to-buy scheme is simple: cash flow. By renting them out for three years the developer gets positive cash flow and the punter can save all their rent for three years and use it as the deposit if they chose to buy. Plus, the prospective purchaser gets to live there and try out the location and the development before comitting to buying. It's quite an intersting development in a great location.

SoupyNorman

krugerrand wrote: »

If was a first time buyer at the moment and looking for an apartment in the city centre I'd seriously consider this development at Heuston South Quarter in the context of the rent-to-buy terms offered. It's a great way of saving for a deposit.

I think it's highly misleading, malicious and clearly a scare-tactic for anybody put forward the theory that the only reason the developer is offering the scheme is that the developer is sure that the prices will be more than 10% lower in three years time. Nobody actually knows that the prices will be in three years time. The obvious reason the developer has offered this rent-to-buy scheme is simple: cash flow. By renting them out for three years the developer gets positive cash flow and the punter can save all their rent for three years and use it as the deposit if they chose to buy. Plus, the prospective purchaser gets to live there and try out the location and the development before comitting to buying. It's quite an intersting development in a great location.

I could come at you from every different angle with facts and figures but the simple fact is, the supply of property is at an all time high and demand is at an all time low with leads of course to the most basic of economic theories.

Supply > Demand = Price Falls


No development no matter how nice, no matter what hare brained scheme they employ will escape the simple fact that they are going to be selling these properties for a minimum of half what the asking prices are now by the time it hits the bottom (possibly less).

Off the top of my head:

Castelforbes Square
Cannon Hall
Chocolate Factory
HSQ
Bakers Yard


All in the city centre classification and all either saying ***PRICED TO SELL*** or Rent to buy, but with prices that are totally unrealistic.


For instance, Cannon Hall said 269k for a two bed, 'oh wait, you want it off the ground floor, well that'll be 315k please'




Anyway, best of luck to you if you think its a good idea and I will try not to look too smug when you've bought your property at a 10% discount and I bought the one next door for a 60% discount.



Figures have been under exaggerated

krugerrand

The price list for Heuston South Quarter is:
http://www.rent2purchase.ie/pdfs/HSQ-pricelist-A4.pdf
There's a two bed (block 9H, second floor, unit 317) with 858 square feet of floor space with a purchase price of €415,000 and a rent-to-purchase figure of €1,350 per month in rent. The developer refunds the difference if the price drops up to 10% (i.e. €373,500) and my three years rent of €48,600 can be used a my deposit.

bravestarr082, you say that, no matter what way you slice it, the selling prices at Heuston South Quarter are going to be a minimum of half what the asking prices are now by the time the market hits the bottom.

bravestarr082, you're predicting that the price of this unit will have fallen by 60% of the current price of €415,000 by the time you buy one, thus enabling you to purchase one for €166,000 !!!! I'm not being smug, but the plain fact is that your prediction of a 60% price drop off the current price is either pure fantasy on your part or a malicious suggestion by you designed to scare prospective purchasers. If you ever buy an apartment in HSQ at a discount of 60% off the current price please post all about it in boards.ie and I'll eat my hat !!

Macha

krugerrand wrote: »

bravestarr082, you're predicting that the price of this unit will have fallen by 60% of the current price of €415,000 by the time you buy one, thus enabling you to purchase one for €166,000 !!!! I'm not being smug, but the plain fact is that your prediction of a 60% price drop off the current price is either pure fantasy on your part or a malicious suggestion by you designed to scare prospective purchasers. If you ever buy an apartment in HSQ at a discount of 60% off the current price please post all about it in boards.ie and I'll eat my hat !!

Oh we're back to the accusations of begrudgery, now with an added dash of malice.

Can you argue with any of bravestarr082's underlying assumptions? Can you explain why you think the price of these apartments won't drop by half?

johnnyskeleton

krugerrand wrote: »

If was a first time buyer at the moment and looking for an apartment in the city centre I'd seriously consider this development at Heuston South Quarter in the context of the rent-to-buy terms offered. It's a great way of saving for a deposit.

Not really. If after 3 years you decide not to buy becuase:
1) there are other better places that are cheaper
2) you have a kid on the way and need somewhere bigger
3) you lose your job and have to move to Galway, London etc
4) the place becomes a very unpleasant place to live with high crime, vandalism & common areas are not maintained
5) you won't get a bank loan in 3 years time

then all the money you have paid is lost. If you rent somewhere else for say €800pm, you will at least have saved close to €20k for a deposit which you can use howsoever you please and/or to purchase any property you wish.

krugerrand wrote: »

I think it's highly misleading, malicious and clearly a scare-tactic for anybody put forward the theory that the only reason the developer is offering the scheme is that the developer is sure that the prices will be more than 10% lower in three years time.

It's no more misleading than what the developer is doing. I am by nature a cynic and I always ask myself, when faced with an offer that seems too good to be true, who benefits? Clearly, the developer gets no benefit by underwriting the 10% loss other than the fact that he can take a 10% loss now rather than a 50% loss in 3 years time.

It's not malicious in that I genuinely believe it to be true.

It's not a scare-tactic as I only wish people would actually look at the housing market in a semi-critical way. Believe me, I am not trying to scare you away from making a purchase because I want to swoop in and take it from you or because I want to frighten people unnecessarily. I want people to question what they are doing, and held up to the light, this scheme raises my suspicions.

krugerrand wrote: »

Nobody actually knows that the prices will be in three years time.

Exactly, and you are using this to infer that they might not drop by more than 10% or at all. Which is perfectly logical, but there are two other facets to this: they could equally drop more than 10% and, more importantly, without knowing the future, we must try to evaluate what the property is actually worth based on historical data and trends.

krugerrand wrote: »

The obvious reason the developer has offered this rent-to-buy scheme is simple: cash flow. By renting them out for three years the developer gets positive cash flow and the punter can save all their rent for three years and use it as the deposit if they chose to buy.

Hmmm....why doesn't he just rent them out on the open market and then, if he is so sure that the price will go up, sell them on the open market?

krugerrand wrote: »

Plus, the prospective purchaser gets to live there and try out the location and the development before comitting to buying. It's quite an intersting development in a great location.

I agree with you that it is good to try before you buy. However, you are committing to the price before you make the final decision to buy or not. It seems to me a way for the developer to get people to form emotional attachments to a property after 3 years, and although the price has dropped by more than 10% + their "deposit", they will be prepared to accept this as they love the place. That's my concern about the whole thing.

krugerrand wrote: »

The price list for Heuston South Quarter is:
http://www.rent2purchase.ie/pdfs/HSQ-pricelist-A4.pdf
There's a two bed (block 9H, second floor, unit 317) with 858 square feet of floor space with a purchase price of €415,000 and a rent-to-purchase figure of €1,350 per month in rent. The developer refunds the difference if the price drops up to 10% (i.e. €373,500) and my three years rent of €48,600 can be used a my deposit.

Why not just buy a property of similar or equal standard, for less than €373,500? That way you don't have to spend the 3 years of rent at all. You could probably get this property for around €350k right now if you asked.

krugerrand wrote: »

bravestarr082, you say that, no matter what way you slice it, the selling prices at Heuston South Quarter are going to be a minimum of half what the asking prices are now by the time the market hits the bottom.

bravestarr082, you're predicting that the price of this unit will have fallen by 60% of the current price of €415,000 by the time you buy one, thus enabling you to purchase one for €166,000 !!!! I'm not being smug, but the plain fact is that your prediction of a 60% price drop off the current price is either pure fantasy on your part or a malicious suggestion by you designed to scare prospective purchasers. If you ever buy an apartment in HSQ at a discount of 60% off the current price please post all about it in boards.ie and I'll eat my hat !!

On the basis that prior to the bubble banks lent at 3.5 times main income + second income and average wages are set to drop significantly, a fair valuation of the average property is c. 135k. Even if you think that this apartments is slightly above average, that still puts a valuation of about €150k on it. This is the method of valuation that will ultimately be used, because it is what the banks will lend and what people can actually afford. €415k is sheer lunacy, and a 50% drop to €207.5k is still on the high side.

SoupyNorman

krugerrand wrote: »

The price list for Heuston South Quarter is:
http://www.rent2purchase.ie/pdfs/HSQ-pricelist-A4.pdf
There's a two bed (block 9H, second floor, unit 317) with 858 square feet of floor space with a purchase price of €415,000 and a rent-to-purchase figure of €1,350 per month in rent. The developer refunds the difference if the price drops up to 10% (i.e. €373,500) and my three years rent of €48,600 can be used a my deposit.

bravestarr082, you say that, no matter what way you slice it, the selling prices at Heuston South Quarter are going to be a minimum of half what the asking prices are now by the time the market hits the bottom.

bravestarr082, you're predicting that the price of this unit will have fallen by 60% of the current price of €415,000 by the time you buy one, thus enabling you to purchase one for €166,000 !!!! I'm not being smug, but the plain fact is that your prediction of a 60% price drop off the current price is either pure fantasy on your part or a malicious suggestion by you designed to scare prospective purchasers. If you ever buy an apartment in HSQ at a discount of 60% off the current price please post all about it in boards.ie and I'll eat my hat !!

Well look, you sound like an advocate of HSQ, maybe you're close to the developer of something but to suggest that I'm maybe showing malicious suggestions about a particular development is totally spurious...I mentioned 5 developments in my post!


My predictions are just as valid as yours in terms of valuations as the simple fact is we nobody knows what is going to happen BUT like I and the majority of people believe prices are going to fall AND as is consistent with property bubbles bursting in other economies, the prices fall hard.

krugerrand wrote: »

I'm not being smug

I dont really see how you would have any reason to be, entering into any type of contract that would see a developer get 415k for a 2bed apartment in Dublin today would constitute Idiocy rather then smugness.

kmick

I was down there yesterday - all the one beds are sold out. About half the two beds are gone. Still lots of three beds. Nicky from the apprentice was showing people around with another girl.

ionapaul

kmick wrote: »

I was down there yesterday - all the one beds are sold out. About half the two beds are gone. Still lots of three beds. Nicky from the apprentice was showing people around with another girl.

F**k me. At those asking prices?!!!!

I thought the market was all out of 'greater fools' - guess I was wrong.

johnnyskeleton

ionapaul wrote: »

F**k me. At those asking prices?!!!!

I thought the market was all out of 'greater fools' - guess I was wrong.

I presume that when he says sold out he means they were rented out under the rent to buy scheme. I would have no problem with this if the rents were actual market rents and there would be an option to purchase at market price in 3 years time, but at least I suppose these people can make their own minds up when the time comes.

kmick

Yeah thats what I mean rent to buy one beds gone. Actually talking to a girl down there whats putting off a lot of people is the 2 month deposit and three month notice period. Three months!!!

johnnyskeleton

kmick wrote: »

Yeah thats what I mean rent to buy one beds gone. Actually talking to a girl down there whats putting off a lot of people is the 2 month deposit and three month notice period. Three months!!!

Good ole Ireland - people are not prepared to pay 2 months deposit on a 3 year lease, nor are they prepared to give 3 months notice before they move on, but at the same time, they are prepared to agree to pay over 10 times the average industrial wage in 3 years time to buy a 2 bed apartment, which they will no doubt have to pay for with a 35 year loan.

Absolute madness. At worst, if they forfeited their deposit and had to pay their last 3 months rent that would be about seven grand. To buy, they stand to lose hundreds of grand, but not a bother on them.

kmick

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Good ole Ireland - people are not prepared to pay 2 months deposit on a 3 year lease, nor are they prepared to give 3 months notice before they move on, but at the same time, they are prepared to agree to pay over 10 times the average industrial wage in 3 years time to buy a 2 bed apartment, which they will no doubt have to pay for with a 35 year loan.Absolute madness. At worst, if they forfeited their deposit and had to pay their last 3 months rent that would be about seven grand. To buy, they stand to lose hundreds of grand, but not a bother on them.

In a society where one month deposit and one month notice is the norm they are commenting on the fact this is not the norm. That is all I am saying.

peter83

Since when is two months deposit such an unusual thing? I know lots of people who had to pay two months when leasing a property. Half is considered one month rent in advance and the other half is a security deposit. I myself had to pay that when I started renting my current apartment 14 months ago.

oceanclub

peter83 wrote: »

Since when is two months deposit such an unusual thing? I know lots of people who had to pay two months when leasing a property. Half is considered one month rent in advance and the other half is a security deposit. I myself had to pay that when I started renting my current apartment 14 months ago.

So what you're talking about is 1 month's rent as deposit, plus one month's rent in advance.

I presume when the OP talks about "two month's deposit", the renter pays that _plus_ rent in advance as well.

P.

SoupyNorman

oceanclub wrote: »

So what you're talking about is 1 month's rent as deposit, plus one month's rent in advance.

I presume when the OP talks about "two month's deposit", the renter pays that _plus_ rent in advance as well.

P.

Thats the way I read things too.

1logical

I have all the details of this development on front of me and can confirm there is a security deposit of 2 months rent and 1 months rent in advance must be payed also before moving in. Usually on taking out a lease on a property u pay 1 month security deposit and 1 month rent advance. With the rent2purcgase scheme the 2 months deposit is refundable in full at the end of the 3 year lease if you give writen notice of 3 months and it is also available if you choose to break the lease with again 3 months notices at 18months.

Listen people this isnt a normal run of the mill fixed term lease as you would get on an normal property, Setting the deposit a little higher may cut out the messers and if you are genuinly interested in buying the property at some stage you shouldnt have much problem paying the deposit as it will be coming off the capital cost in 3 years.
I for one am pro rent2purchase in a way of maybe maintaining some value in property as if it completely collapses we are all f**ked,property owners or not.

There are huge pro's and con's for a scheme like this though most people will just look at the con's after being scared off property as a result as what has happened. Best off to make your own mind up on this scheme or go to a fortune teller.

I do think the deposit is too high, The rents are too high, and a little over priced though still am interested for others reasons. The apartments should come furnished but they dont, they seem to be giving out ikea vouchers for €3,000 with the 2 beds and suppling a wooden floor. 3 grand would never out fit a 2 bed apt and there is no blinds being supplied. Tho for some reason you are being charged top end high spec rental rates for an unfurnished property. Also with all the tenants getting ikea vouchers half the apts will prob be done up the same , ul have to go to belfast for it, wait 2 weeks into a lease ur paying rent on for the furniture to arrive and then assemble it. People buying €500,000 properties dont even shop in ikea to my knowledge???

Also, The estate agents on site dont seem to be armed with any information on the development and you just seem to be met with a blank look when you ask a question that isnt listed on the leaflet.

Thats enough con's il shall be back with some pro's !!!

kmick

1logical wrote: »

Thats enough con's il shall be back with some pro's !!!

Thats a lot of cons - any sign of the pros?

The_Conductor

1logical wrote: »

I for one am pro rent2purchase in a way of maybe maintaining some value in property as if it completely collapses we are all f**ked,property owners or not.

I agree with all you're saying about Ikea.
How do you reckon that property owners are not up the creek if property collapses. I disagree with you vehemently- but I'd like to hear where you're coming from with what you're suggesting.

Cheers,

SMcCarrick

1logical

Right so I better get on with some pros
I for one can’t see this crash that everything is worth a 100 thousand happening. Im not saying it won’t though I don’t understand these people that are saying it will.
I hope and think in 3 years time that these properties will be worth what they are being valued at now. So that leaves you not agreeing the best price in the world now though if you don’t have the deposit to buy in the bank now it doesn’t really matter what the properties around Dublin are being given away at now if you cant buy.
In the case of in three years time they have gone down a lot the developer will have to do something if they don’t want 70 sets of keys back. At the end of the day the bank will value the property in three years to give you a mortgage and then we’ll see what there worth.
If you do avail of the buy option after three yours this scheme would have been an excellent way of saving the deposit. On average the rent paid over 3 years will be 50,000 and will be going straight against the cost of the unit. All I know if I pay 50,000 worth of mortgage repayments over the next 3 years only around 5,000 if even will be going off the capital.
A lot lies on the market in 3 years, all going well you will have had an opportunity to live in your home 3 years rent free in a way if you avail.
All I know is I feel a scheme like this is worth a punt, If I decide to break the lease after 18 months or the market collapses in 3 years all I will do is walk away, I will not be any better or any worse off as I am now if I was out renting somewhere.
People on this have been comparing the prices in this scheme to those of others around the area. The comparisons aren’t great as this seems to be far better located and have a far higher finish than others locally. Everyone knows that in a rent to buy situation the property is probably slightly over valued though how much can u accept? If they were priced to sell they’d be selling them not renting them out!
People have changed there opinion on property since the down turn, a few years ago if a bungalow on a round about came up for sale you’d be advised to buy it by everyone and wouldn’t think twice, now if a mansion in d4 came up for 200,000 people would be saying no. I think there is an opportunity happening now for people willing to take a little risk in the property game, I don’t mean a investor though just someone looking to get a nice home in a nice area that they didn’t think they could afford 2 years ago and see what happens.You can always “just walk away”

1logical

Sorry about that ! Thats what I get for using word :rolleyes:

quozl

1logical wrote: »

People on this have been comparing the prices in this scheme to those of others around the area. The comparisons aren’t great as this seems to be far better located and have a far higher finish than others locally.

Not remotely true. I compared a 2bed here to a 2bed in the gasworks. A much better located, and nicer finished development imo, with a much lower asking price, at which it is not even selling...

They are ridiculously over-priced.

Your other arguments are opinion, which I don't want to argue with, as I don't know if you're right or wrong, I just have my own opinion.

You ARE completely wrong on the price issue, and it's a crucial one.

1logical

I tell ya one thing,

If i dont get it for the price its valued at in the open market in 3 years less my rent paid i will be walking away. Simple as that really as will everyone else.

I have bought before so there for dont have a deposit in the bank so the apt you are talking about in the gasworks might aswell be 15,000 for all the use it is to me, also dont like the gas works, not a great build quality or location imo.. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: