Job losses - public sector

kippy

gurramok wrote: »

Here's the UK salary scales, look at the public sector ones and compare to the TUI website list.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=429176&in_page_id=2

:eek:

Not sure what side of the point you are tying to make? That public sector workers get paid more here? If you llok at the jobs and salarys mentioned in the report you'll see that in general ACROSS THE BOARD salaries in the UK are lower than they are here.
Like a lot of the facts and figures spouted (for both sides) on this post its completely irrelevant what people get paid in the UK, the have completely different circumstances to live in.

Back on topic. No one should wish ANYONE out of a job in any sector. Increasing the numbers of unemployed people in the country helps no one, especially at a time like this. That said, the reality of the situation is that the government, who we the majority in this country has backed in the last number of elections and whose policies up until recently were getting the broad backing of the people, who gave them the mandate they worked towards, are going to be short approximately 20 billion euro this year.
The public service wage bill has jumped from aprox 4 billion circa 2000 to 20 odd billion this year. This increase has ALMOST wholey been based on once off and completely ill thought out taxation strategies. Taxes that have all but been decimated in the past 18 months.
I've said this often before, I work in the Public service and have done so for two years now in an IT role, having worked in various private sector areas in IT for the previous 5-6 years. I would regard myself as well qualified in my field having a college education and a number of professional certifications as well as about 8 years of experience at this stage.
I make NO APOLOGIES for the wage I earn. I work hard for it.
There are however MAJOR and have been MAJOR issues with where the moment is spent and general value for money in the Public sector from what I can see. From the amount of people doing certain jobs to the NEED for certain jobs in the first place. I also see a lot of areas where costs could be cut without ANY discernable difference to the service provided.
However the main issue is this, there doesnt SEEM to be enough of a message or enough emphasis being put on cutting costs.
Theres also far too many middle management in certain areas.
The thing is this has been the case for years, not much has improved in the past 10 years (in the "Good" times) when costs should have been cut. The unions have such a stranglehold in this area that it is hard to see how the cost savings and cuts that are required actually happen when we need them to happen (soon/now)

The government need to be looking at where jobs can be created in the private sector, end off, we need to take control of our own destiny.
Personally,
I still dont think we are making enough out of renewable energies, our existing Gas and Oil resources and our ACTUAL investment in a knowledge economy.

Kippy

kippy

Sorry, one further point I wanted to make,

We have all grown accustomed to higher wages. The reality of the situation in many jobs, public and private is that people expect to be paid circa 29/30 k for generic jobs, without any qualifications or any real skill level.
No offence to anyone but there are those in the Public sector who believe 30k per annum is low paid, without actually analysing how well qualified they are, what the do or their experience level.
Similarily when I worked in Dell I knew product builders who had been there 8-9 years on circa 33k basic,no qualifications, nothing.
We ALL need to revise how much we expect to be getting paid and hopefully so long as the generic costs associated with living come down we can take those cuts in income.

gurramok

kippy wrote: »

Not sure what side of the point you are tying to make? That public sector workers get paid more here? If you llok at the jobs and salarys mentioned in the report you'll see that in general ACROSS THE BOARD salaries in the UK are lower than they are here.
Like a lot of the facts and figures spouted (for both sides) on this post its completely irrelevant what people get paid in the UK, the have completely different circumstances to live in.

It is relevant. It shows alot in the public sector along with some of the private sector of course are overpaid in Ireland when compared to other countries.(UK and we know wage levels are lower in alot of the EU15 countries than here)

The topic stated 'job losses - public sector'. We have to pay the public sector wage bill. Its a viscous cycle. If we cut the numbers and the pay of the overpaid, it will help. We can't borrow 20bn year on year to pay the public sector wage&pension bill, something has to give.

The private sector has and is adjusting due to uncompetitiveness.

Does anyone want to bet how many of the 354,000 unemployed were full time public sector employees?

ixoy

I think it's quite refreshing that there are many civil and public servants posting here - kippy, TGPS, BroomBurner, etc. - who show that they're willing to make reform and reduce spending, whether it be in their own pay packets or address over-staffing in some areas and projects that are not required.

Any chance ye want to take over David Begg's job and get people to start dealing with things more properly?

kippy

gurramok wrote: »

It is relevant. It shows alot in the public sector along with some of the private sector of course are overpaid in Ireland when compared to other countries.(UK and we know wage levels are lower in alot of the EU15 countries than here)

The topic stated 'job losses - public sector'. We have to pay the public sector wage bill. Its a viscous cycle. If we cut the numbers and the pay of the overpaid, it will help. We can't borrow 20bn year on year to pay the public sector wage&pension bill, something has to give.

The private sector has and is adjusting due to uncompetitiveness.

Does anyone want to bet how many of the 354,000 unemployed were full time public sector employees?

It doesnt show that they are overpaid at all........it shows two figures side by side (in different,fluctuating currencies might I add) for jobs of similiar title without taking into account the actual value of that wage to the person earning it or other factors which would impact terms and conditions of employment. IT DOES NOT SHOW ANYTHING TO DO WITH OVERPAYMENT OF WAGES.

I have no doubt that the private sector are "feeling the pain" none at all, and if you cared to read the remainder of my post you'd realise I am well aware of the current situation.
There were probably NO full time public sector emplyees laid off. The main reason many joined the public sector was this "Cushion" which is why a large amount of them should and are willing to take the pain themselves. What I would hate to see is redundancies in the Public sector which are purely based on last in first out. In general the most highly educated and possibly the most forward thinking in this sector are the more recent entrants (IN GENERAL).
Voluntary redundancies and early retirements if it has to happen.

kippy

ixoy wrote: »

I think it's quite refreshing that there are many civil and public servants posting here - kippy, TGPS, BroomBurner, etc. - who show that they're willing to make reform and reduce spending, whether it be in their own pay packets or address over-staffing in some areas and projects that are not required.

Any chance ye want to take over David Begg's job and get people to start dealing with things more properly?

Thanks,
The unions are in a very very powerful position. There are lots in the Public Sector who really dont see the bigger picture at all. In my opinion the country will probably become bankrupt before these people see sense.
I am worried, very worried.

gurramok

kippy wrote: »

It doesnt show that they are overpaid at all........it shows two figures side by side (in different,fluctuating currencies might I add) for jobs of similiar title without taking into account the actual value of that wage to the person earning it or other factors which would impact terms and conditions of employment. IT DOES NOT SHOW ANYTHING TO DO WITH OVERPAYMENT OF WAGES.

So the Irish public sector workers work harder than their brethen in most EU countries hence they deserve higher pay?

Being overpaid is part of the problem and to recognise they are overpaid in the first place is where it starts. Benchmarking since 2002 without any return in productivity has skewed the levels obscenely upwards of the pay ladder.

I'm not talking about the lowly paid clerk. I'm talking about the likes of the army of admins in the HSE for example as well as others highlighted in the stats. One would be lucky to hear a public sector worker say they are overpaid and the reason we focus on them is we as a country cannot afford them.

Simply, the result is we cannot afford the public sector as it is in its present form and will not for many many years.
Here's Matt Cooper's take on it all http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4968594.ece

Godge

gurramok wrote: »

And here's the OECD comparison. http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/09/17/story17337.asp

Here's more from 2006.
http://www.bankofscotland.ie/index.jsp?1nID=93&2nID=119&nID=177&aID=254


Any more of the poor mouth?

Your figures for nurses are INO propaganda and don't include the various allowances that nurses receive and unsocial hours payment (most of which are not available in the private sector).

The figure for firefighters is basic only and does not include the allowances for working a five over seven roster and other unsocial hours payments, rostered overtime and various untaxed allowances for expenses.

Ditto the gardai have uniform and boot allowances etc. to cover the cost of cleaning their uniform.

ParkRunner

ixoy wrote: »

I think it's quite refreshing that there are many civil and public servants posting here - kippy, TGPS, BroomBurner, etc. - who show that they're willing to make reform and reduce spending, whether it be in their own pay packets or address over-staffing in some areas and projects that are not required.

Any chance ye want to take over David Begg's job and get people to start dealing with things more properly?

+1

I agree but what union in reality is going to take money from its members in subscriptions and turn around and say I think you should all take a pay cut, that's the best I can offer. Even the Irish Bank Officials Association "called on workers in the financial services sector to support the national demonstration organised by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions this Saturday, in Dublin, in protest against the Government's failure to adopt a strategic response to the current crisis built around the principles of fairness, economic renewal and job protection."

Personally I believe it wasn't union power that cause the imbalance in pay, it was weak leadership by the government.

kippy

gurramok wrote: »

So the Irish public sector workers work harder than their brethen in most EU countries hence they deserve higher pay?

Being overpaid is part of the problem and to recognise they are overpaid in the first place is where it starts. Benchmarking since 2002 without any return in productivity has skewed the levels obscenely upwards of the pay ladder.

I'm not talking about the lowly paid clerk. I'm talking about the likes of the army of admins in the HSE for example as well as others highlighted in the stats. One would be lucky to hear a public sector worker say they are overpaid and the reason we focus on them is we as a country cannot afford them.

Simply, the result is we cannot afford the public sector as it is in its present form and will not for many many years.
Here's Matt Cooper's take on it all http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4968594.ece

Look,
You obviously want to get bogged down in wages in the UK versus wages in Ireland. I dont know why as its a pretty pointless argument. I didnt say anyone in this country deserved higher pay than someone else in a different country. I think you are missing my point.
I have accepted that we cannot accept the Public sector in its current form, you are preaching to the converted. I dont think your attempts to directly compare wages with that of the UK is going to help you in winning that argument with others though.

To base analysis of pay scales in another country with that of ireland on monetary take home alone is daft. Simple as.

You've yet to come up with any concrete ways in redcing this wage bill, or reducing the public sector spend in general without putting a couple more hundred thousand people into the dole queue.

Matt Cooper - is he overpaid ?

Godge

kippy wrote: »

Sorry, one further point I wanted to make,

We have all grown accustomed to higher wages. The reality of the situation in many jobs, public and private is that people expect to be paid circa 29/30 k for generic jobs, without any qualifications or any real skill level.
No offence to anyone but there are those in the Public sector who believe 30k per annum is low paid, without actually analysing how well qualified they are, what the do or their experience level.
Similarily when I worked in Dell I knew product builders who had been there 8-9 years on circa 33k basic,no qualifications, nothing.
We ALL need to revise how much we expect to be getting paid and hopefully so long as the generic costs associated with living come down we can take those cuts in income.

One of the more sensible posts here. Entry-level salaries are a big issue. Look at clerical jobs in the private sector versus the clerical officer/grade III scales in the public sector.

There are a number of points that need to be considered in total:

- a relatively small public sector by international standards with relatively small tax take
- relatively high salaries and benefits by international standards paid to frontline staff such as nurses, gardai, teachers, lecturers and especially medical consultants

Taking these two together, we get a relatively poor public service even though we are paying very little for it.

When you add in a relatively small central civil service not equipped to manage (five economists in the Department of Finance) contrasted by bloated bureaucracy in the health, semi-state, local authority and university sectors, you get a recipe for disaster.

Higher taxes are required at taxes are at unbelievably low levels by international standards but at the same time, we have to find, in a very short time, a way to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of our public services while also reducing or freezing salaries for a considerable length of time.

Tackling frontline staff on these issues will lead to industrial strife but if we want to sort this mess out......

Gruffalo

TGPS wrote: »

I'm a fairly senior manager in the public service.

What I would say is that there is a lot dead wood in the both the civil and public services of the country and what's needed is redundancy scheme and a redployment scheme.

I would also suggest that it needs to be a lot easier to demote or dismiss poor performers (including teachers and Guards).

Pay cuts are not the answer. If there is a hole in the public purse then rebalancing the tax system is the answer - broaden the tax base, increase tax rates and close off reliefs that are now irrelevant to the policy objectives of the government.

Spending needs to be curbed, which the redundancy scheme would take care of, but the key areas of Social Welfare, Health and Education need to be gone over with a fine comb - there are billions to be saved there.

TGPS
http://thisgruntledpublicservant.blogspot.com/

For me this is the best post of the thread, though there have been many fine posts.

It would definitely be more effective to start with a redundancy and redeployment phase. This would probably sort out many of the problems on its own. Despite what the media would have us believe, this situation has not arisen overnight. Therefore it will not be sorted overnight. It will take proper planning and management to ensure that we are in a better position when we get out of this nasty economic situation.

One thing I would like to say is that there are many great public service employees in Ireland and it is important not to paint everyone with the same brush.

femur61

gurramok wrote: »

Point being?

That the UK public sector is poorly paid compared to their private sector, an inverse of the situation here, funny that

I went to college and worked in the UK, nurses, teachers all civil servants don't get a fraction what there conterparts are paid here. In the US it's the same. Theres no point being expressed but the sooner they realsise how lucky they are the better we're all suffering.

jimmmy

femur61 wrote: »

I went to college and worked in the UK, nurses, teachers all civil servants don't get a fraction what there conterparts are paid here. In the US it's the same. Theres no point being expressed but the sooner they realsise how lucky they are the better we're all suffering.

Hear hear. Many of our taxes are also very high, or at least higher than those countries. eg property tax ( stamp duty @ 9% ), vat @ 21.5% etc.
Cut our public service paybill quick.....everyone realises that.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Many of our taxes are also very high, or at least higher than those countries. eg property tax ( stamp duty @ 9% ), vat @ 21.5% etc....

I wish people would quit peddling the myth that our taxes are high. Overall, we have one of the lower incidences of taxation in the developed world.

grahamo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I wish people would quit peddling the myth that our taxes are high. Overall, we have one of the lower incidences of taxation in the developed world.

Income taxes are not that high but the govt. takes a lot more than other countries when it comes to VAT (The VAT rate is very high and it is charged on almost everything where in most other countries it is charged on luxury items) & the duties on cigarettes, petrol, alcohol etc.

ixoy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I wish people would quit peddling the myth that our taxes are high. Overall, we have one of the lower incidences of taxation in the developed world.

I know for income tax that's true, but is that really the case for indirect taxation as well?

P. Breathnach

grahamo wrote: »

Income taxes are not that high but the govt. takes a lot more than other countries when it comes to VAT (The VAT rate is very high and it is charged on almost everything where in most other countries it is charged on luxury items) & the duties on cigarettes, petrol, alcohol etc.

It is still the case that the overall incidence of tax here is a good deal lower than the average for the developed world.

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

Income taxes are not that high but the govt. takes a lot more than other countries when it comes to VAT (The VAT rate is very high and it is charged on almost everything where in most other countries it is charged on luxury items) & the duties on cigarettes, petrol, alcohol etc.

True. Plus stamp duty on any decent property is 9%. Plus the excise duty on cars / vehicles must be one of the highest in the world. Raise the income tax rates, esp. the top rate. But cut public service pay,and politicians pay + pensions, thats what everyone realises needs to be done.t

nhughes100

jimmmy wrote: »

True. Plus stamp duty on any decent property is 9%. Plus the excise duty on cars / vehicles must be one of the highest in the world. Raise the income tax rates, esp. the top rate. But cut public service pay,and politicians pay + pensions, thats what everyone realises needs to be done.t

Seeing as you conveniently ignored my post on page 4 I'll repeat it here. since you're speaking for everyone I look forward to a costed response this time.

Jimmmy, in short lets have some put up or shut up, your posts are Eddie Hobbs populist rhetoric. Lets have some figures on how you would cut all the "dead wood" and all the inefficiences in the gold plated public service without impacting frontline services. Lets aim for 10 billion euro. That'll get us some of the way there. Give us numbers in departments and give us grades and payscales that you would cull. Don't forget you'll have to pay redundancy and pay them dole as well as other social and medical benefits. Not to mention the reduced tax take next year.


All you bashers are the same people that start moaning when your bins aren't collected, when it takes 6 months to get a tax disc for a car, when your kids are crammed into classrooms, when someones stuck on a trolley in a+e, when there's no college spaces and the points hit the roof etc etc etc.
__________________
NH.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

True. Plus stamp duty on any decent property is 9%. Plus the excise duty on cars / vehicles must be one of the highest in the world...

No matter how often you repeat an inaccuracy, it remains inaccurate.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No matter how often you repeat an inaccuracy, it remains inaccurate.

Its not inaccurate. I have been in dozens of countries over he past few decades and have not seen cars as expensive as iun this country, for example. Plus the tax take on a new property bought a few years ago, say - estimated at hundreds of thousands, taking in to account income tax, vat, stamp duty etc . My point above was in reply to someone talking about the US and UK ( they wrote "I went to college and worked in the UK, nurses, teachers all civil servants don't get a fraction what there conterparts are paid here. In the US it's the same. Theres no point being expressed but the sooner they realsise how lucky they are the better we're all suffering.") Our vat rate is laughably high compared with the UK and US, and we have vat at the top rate on things not rated for such a rate in other countries.

oscarBravo

jimmmy wrote: »

Its not inaccurate.

Do you know what the rate of the Danish equivalent of VRT is?

ixoy

If you cut pay, how does that impact those services? The people are still in their jobs and, given the state of the economy, I don't think we need worry about them moving elsewhere in the short term.

As to how we'd curtail things - many of your fellow civil and public servants have already outlined their own ideas, such as using PMDS effectively and basing wage increases on that, rather than being automatic (PMDS is a joke now - something attested to by many civil servants here). Low rankers would be removed.

Identify worthy projects (something An Board Snip Nua is doing) - I don't for a second believe everything that's been done is worthwhile or adds value.

Also increase the working week (in the CS anyway) from 35 (sorry 34hr 42 mins) to 37.5 (before time-in-lieu takes effect) - that would be as effective as hiring a couple more hundred workers. Also remove tea breaks or very strictly regulate them.

jimmmy

nhughes100 wrote: »

Jimmmy, in short lets have some put up or shut up, your posts are Eddie Hobbs populist rhetoric. Lets have some figures on how you would cut ....

Bring down pay rates 30% minimum to bring them more in line. Cut pensions. Our Teeshock is paid more than the US, German or French president. Do not forget the like of the FAS lads travelling first class to America. There are numerous people who could fill in the figures for you. Borrowing 25 billion to pay our public service is not the way to go, when those we borrow from do not pay their own Presidents / public service as much !

nhughes100

jimmmy wrote: »

Bring down pay rates 30% minimum to bring them more in line. Cut pensions. Our Teeshock is paid more than the US, German or French president. Do not forget the like of the FAS lads travelling first class to America. There are numerous people who could fill in the figures for you. Borrowing 25 billion to pay our public service is not the way to go, when those we borrow from do not pay their own Presidents / public service as much !

Wow maybe you should forward those figures to the Minister for Finance. It's all so clear now, thanks.

BTW Taoiseach not teeshock, thats something that happens when you don't hit the ball right.

Lu Tze

jimmmy wrote: »

Bring down pay rates 30% minimum to bring them more in line...

Agreed, though this is not exclusive to public sector. We are losing jobs where i work because equivalent engineers in the UK (having already been lower paid - reflecting the difference in the cost of living) are now much cheaper than their irish counterparts due to the weakening of the sterling.

Tenders for jobs in Ireland, using UK staff are coming in much lower. All pay has to be reduced.

jimmmy

nhughes100 wrote: »

It's all so clear now, thanks.
.

Glad to be able to help you.

nhughes100 wrote: »

BTW Taoiseach not teeshock, thats something that happens when you don't hit the ball right.

Or when he overpays himself, does not do his job properly ( lead the country ! ) and borrows 25 billion a year ( much of it to pay himself and his overpaid public sector ; all of it from nations which do not pay their own leader / public sector as much ) which my kids will have to pay back , with interest ?p

Gruffalo

jimmmy wrote: »

Its not inaccurate. I have been in dozens of countries over he past few decades and have not seen cars as expensive as iun this country, for example. Plus the tax take on a new property bought a few years ago, say - estimated at hundreds of thousands, taking in to account income tax, vat, stamp duty etc . My point above was in reply to someone talking about the US and UK ( they wrote "I went to college and worked in the UK, nurses, teachers all civil servants don't get a fraction what there conterparts are paid here. In the US it's the same. Theres no point being expressed but the sooner they realsise how lucky they are the better we're all suffering.") Our vat rate is laughably high compared with the UK and US, and we have vat at the top rate on things not rated for such a rate in other countries.

Do you realise that visiting a country and living in one are two different things. If you had to live in the UK you would realise that if you buy a house you will be paying tax on it for the rest of your days. It is called council tax. It helps to pay for schools, police, fire brigade etc. Not only to they pay more tax but they have to pay for more services such as water as these companiese are privatised, thus reducing strain on the taxation system.

We pay an inadequate amount of tax in Ireland and this needs to be rectified or any changes you make to the public service will be ineffective.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Its not inaccurate. I have been in dozens of countries over he past few decades and have not seen cars as expensive as iun this country, for example. Plus the tax take on a new property bought a few years ago, say - estimated at hundreds of thousands, taking in to account income tax, vat, stamp duty etc . My point above was in reply to someone talking about the US and UK ( they wrote "I went to college and worked in the UK, nurses, teachers all civil servants don't get a fraction what there conterparts are paid here. In the US it's the same. Theres no point being expressed but the sooner they realsise how lucky they are the better we're all suffering.") Our vat rate is laughably high compared with the UK and US, and we have vat at the top rate on things not rated for such a rate in other countries.

So what if our VAT rate is higher than in some other states? You have been using that to imply that our tax levels are generally high. The core fact, the one that really matters, is that overall we pay less tax than do the citizens of most other developed states.

It is not reasonable to pick on one element of a taxation system and extrapolate from that to the overall impact of the whole system.

In 2005, the tax take as a percentage of GDP throughout the EU averaged 39.6; in Ireland, it was 30.8. [see http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1010431.shtml ].