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Job losses - public sector
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My take on all this as a semi-state worker (who has spent most of their working life in the private sector) is that there is huge wastage in the public sector. Reviews of each department and body need urgently to be carried out to remove whatever wastage can be removed. Right now the logic needs to be value for money. Yes we can cut wages by 30% or more as jimmy seems to think we should do, but that solves next to nothing and only makes matters worse. Blanket cuts like that, just like the pension levy, are lazy measures taken in haste with no real thought as to what the overall goal is. All measures should be targeted and relevant to the area in which they are being aimed at. UCD, for example, is not the same as the HSE and should not be treated the same.
Steps should be taken to avoid wage cuts where possible. Yes wage cuts save money and given the public view of the public sector at the moment they seem like the popular move, but reducing peoples spending power should be kept to a minimum, across the board, not just in the public sector. If this were to happen and wage cuts were still required I would accept that, but I don't accept wage cuts are necessary when I can see areas where money can be saved all around me! Most private companies attempt to reduce other overheads etc before relying on wage cuts. The Government should be no different.
There needs to be a radical shake-up in the unions also, from an internal point of view. My experience with unions in both sectors is that they look after the slacker. But the slacker has no real impact on a companies performance. If there are 10 people on a team and 2 are slackers they are still given 10 peoples work. The other 8 make up the difference. Unions protect those 2 at the expense of the other 8. It's about time those 8 stood up and told their unions either to fight for them all collectively or get stuffed.0 -
I think it's quite refreshing that there are many civil and public servants posting here - kippy, TGPS, BroomBurner, etc. - who show that they're willing to make reform and reduce spending, whether it be in their own pay packets or address over-staffing in some areas and projects that are not required.
Any chance ye want to take over David Begg's job and get people to start dealing with things more properly?
Thanks.
It's probably worth considering whether the unions are representative of the greater body of public service employees?
The people I'm responsible for are universally hardworking, diligent and conscientous. They don't want to strike, they want to work and we appreciate we have a job when many haven't. The more militant elements of the public service are the ones running the unions which causes me to query how representative they are.
The people I'm responsible to are noticeably less worthy.
Reform is desperately needed, starting with senior management. I'd argue for borrowing from the American model - any senior management position or appointment should be scrutinised by the Dail; any senior management finishing out a contract should be made re-apply for their job; ALL PMDS plans should be published online for anyone to see; and the minutes of all board meetings in every state agency should be published.
We need reform. We need proper accountability, and we need effective scrutiny.
TGPS
http://thisgruntledpublicservant.blogspot.com/0 -
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Jimmy, you're trolling plain and simple. Not one concrete costed proposal to save money, populist rhetoric, dodged all the questions and just repeat the same tired mantra. Maybe you should join Sinn Fein or the SWP, they love that sort of guff since they know they'll never be in a position to backup their ideas. Time to unsubscribe from this thread methinks.0
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Its not inaccurate. I have been in dozens of countries over he past few decades and have not seen cars as expensive as iun this country, for example. Plus the tax take on a new property bought a few years ago, say - estimated at hundreds of thousands, taking in to account income tax, vat, stamp duty etc . My point above was in reply to someone talking about the US and UK ( they wrote "I went to college and worked in the UK, nurses, teachers all civil servants don't get a fraction what there conterparts are paid here. In the US it's the same. Theres no point being expressed but the sooner they realsise how lucky they are the better we're all suffering.") Our vat rate is laughably high compared with the UK and US, and we have vat at the top rate on things not rated for such a rate in other countries.
Read post number 23 on this thread where I set out the comparative figures from the OECD on the tax take and conclusively demonstrate that the tax burden in Ireland is extremely low by international standards.
That is not inconsistent with a viewpoint that the salaries of many public serviants (including those in the frontline) are too high. It means we get less than the little we pay for.
If you are so knowledgeable about other countries and their VAT rates, explain to me the US set-up. Don't forget to include State and County sales taxes for accurate comparisons.0 -
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Read post number 23 on this thread where I set out the comparative figures from the OECD on the tax take and conclusively demonstrate that the tax burden in Ireland is extremely low by international standards.
That is not inconsistent with a viewpoint that the salaries of many public serviants (including those in the frontline) are too high. It means we get less than the little we pay for.
If you are so knowledgeable about other countries and their VAT rates, explain to me the US set-up. Don't forget to include State and County sales taxes for accurate comparisons.
I think we are too dependent on indirect taxes. Our VAT Rate is on the higher side of the EU average and VRT, stamp duty etc too. Indirect taxes are heavily dependent on economic activity.
Income taxes are too, unemployment etc., but not to the same level.
What seems to have happened here in the last 10 years is, we have kept the high indirect taxes and relied on boom/bubble receipts to pay for income tax reductions. Not sustainable long term.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Seen the prices in USA, Germany, France and the UK?
All Irish workers are paid more than their international counterparts.
Which if your statement is true means we're a total uncompetitive mess and need to take action NOW to address this annomoly... Oh wait isn't that what the k nob ends in power are trying to do?! Action which would include pulling public sector pay in line with EU counterparts.0 -
I said we should not be borrowing 25 billion per annum. I say we should not be paying our politicians and public service substantially more than other developed countries. You are ignoring the reality nhughes if you do not accept that. Some would say we could save 5 or 10 billion from cutting our public service wage bill....whatever - its not my job to do the figures - but everyone in the country knows it needs to be done. As Michael O'Leary says, the sooner the better. As K( correctly said, our VAT Rate is on the higher side of the EU average and VRT, stamp duty etc too. There is not much scope there. However, I say raise the higher rate of income tax by perhaps 10 or 20%. Whatever it takes....reduce the borrowing to spend on govt handouts.nhughes100 wrote: »Not one concrete costed proposal to save money0 -
ronbyrne2005 wrote: »Good that you acknowledged the real measure using GNP, but those figures are very misleading. They take no account of scope and comprehensiveness of public sector in any country. In other OECD countries they have large military expenditure, lower class sizes, free at source GP and dental care, low cost or free at source child care and endless other public services that we dont have in Ireland. Also the OECD reports dont measure and cant measure the quality of public services.
Also we have the highest public sector pay/pensions packages in OECD which means less of the public sector workers that are required can be recuited as the existing ones have to be paid so much more than rest OECD.
We also have lower taxes than all those countries you mention which means people have more after tax income and can decide themselves how to spend this income on services like GP etc which are provided as free public services in other countries. It's the same at end of day as you pay through your taxes for these public services or directly with after tax income if public sector doesnt provide it.
Don't forget a young age profile and (until recently) low unemployment that means we pay very little out in pensions and unemployment benefits compared to other developed countries.0 -
I said we should not be borrowing 25 billion per annum. I say we should not be paying our politicians and public service substantially more than other developed countries. You are ignoring the reality nhughes if you do not accept that. Some would say we could save 5 or 10 billion from cutting our public service wage bill....whatever - its not my job to do the figures - but everyone in the country knows it needs to be done. As Michael O'Leary says, the sooner the better. As K( correctly said, our VAT Rate is on the higher side of the EU average and VRT, stamp duty etc too. There is not much scope there. However, I say raise the higher rate of income tax by perhaps 10 or 20%. Whatever it takes....reduce the borrowing to spend on govt handouts.
Hire a team of businessmen and give them the following brief:
1. They can hire and fire who they want.
2. They can cut whatever board, project etc they want, except some essential infrastructure and social welfare projects.
3. They get 10c of every € saved for the state. There is a clawback provision over 20 years if services deteriorate as a result.
4. They can set pay levels in the public sector.
5. Every job cut takes the cost of the salary + whatever redundancy etc off the above commission (to stop them firing people willy-nilly)
6. Set up complaints boards for every public service run by an independent company (not government) and paid for from the commission of 3 above. Each complaint is logged on a boards.ie style website to prevent company just ignoring them. Commission above is reduced by some small % every time there is an unresolved complaint. A minimum level of unresolved complaints are allowed without penalty (there are always cranks especially here in Ireland).
If something like this was done, then the big savings (whatever they might be) would be made first. Part of the problem is that no-one has done an analysis of where money is being wasted. For example € 40 K per annum to rent 3 prefabs in a school seems exorbitant to me and sounds like backhanders are involved.0 -
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Which if your statement is true means we're a total uncompetitive mess and need to take action NOW to address this annomoly... Oh wait isn't that what the k nob ends in power are trying to do?! Action which would include pulling public sector pay in line with EU counterparts.
It doesn't makes sense to purely bring public sector pay in line with EU counterparts if the cost of living isn't in line also. It's a nice sound-byte that though.0 -
Folks, I've been flicking through this thread, and there are some good points, but there are 2 things that also need to be addressed. Firstly the cost of living in this country. You can save all the money you like by cutting jobs and wages etc, etc but it's no good if people simply can't afford to live; to buy food, heat their homes etc. It's got to drop.
Secondly...mortgages. Same theory. We can paycut all we like but as a direct result of our "boom" years, our Government allowed things like 110 % mortgages over 40 years. There is a substantial number of people who simply won't be able to pay these mortgages if all these pay cuts/job losses come in, compuonding our problems even further. How would that work?
Fundmentally the Gov have backed themselves into a hole and are literally reaping the "rewards" of what they have sown. I wholly and completely agree that our public service need a serious overhaul and vast amounts of money is being wasted in it, but the knock-on effects need to be very seriously considered aswell.
Having said that, they way things are at the moment, I don't think we should hold our breaths.0 -
A slightly better comparison would be to see how the public sector wages in other countries measure up, relatively, to their own private sector equivalents. I believe Ireland still does well in this regard.It doesn't makes sense to purely bring public sector pay in line with EU counterparts if the cost of living isn't in line also. It's a nice sound-byte that though.0 -
A slightly better comparison would be to see how the public sector wages in other countries measure up, relatively, to their own private sector equivalents. I believe Ireland still does well in this regard.
I don't disagree that cuts are probably needed or anything like that, I just have had enough of the sweeping statements about blanket cuts that in reality would do more harm than good. Some people seem to think the solutions to this problem are quick and simple fixes, including our Government apparently. The solution is hard work and rolling up our sleeves and identifying a long-term solution to the overall problem and developing a strategy to achieve that solution, not fighting fires as and when they arise in such a localised and isolated manner.0 -
In Ireland public sector pay is 19,000 per annum higher than private sector pay. Also the public sector has perks like job security -a huge perk in this day and age - and a very generous pension - again a huge perk when you get to retirement age. Many people in the private sector I know take very few or no sick days or holidays, because they are self employed and simply cannot afford to. It would be very interesting, as you say, to see how the public sector wages in other countries measure up, relatively, to their own private sector equivalents. A few foreigners pointed out to me recently they thought that the people in the wealth creating sector, who collect and pay the taxes and who take the risks, should actually be paid more than the public sector, perish the thought !A slightly better comparison would be to see how the public sector wages in other countries measure up, relatively, to their own private sector equivalents. I believe Ireland still does well in this regard.0 -
In Ireland public sector pay is 19,000 per annum higher than private sector pay. Also the public sector has perks like job security -a huge perk in this day and age - and a very generous pension - again a huge perk when you get to retirement age. Many people in the private sector I know take very few or no sick days or holidays, because they are self employed and simply cannot afford to. It would be very interesting, as you say, to see how the public sector wages in other countries measure up, relatively, to their own private sector equivalents. A few foreigners pointed out to me recently they thought that the people in the wealth creating sector, who collect and pay the taxes and who take the risks, should actually be paid more than the public sector, perish the thought !
So the public sector here get paid 19k more than the private and you want to have their wages reduced by 30k? I can promise you that I get paid personally the same in a semi-state company than I would in a private company. I have a slightly better pension (the pension only gets really good when you're on seriously good money) and job security but I gave up bonuses, share options and health insurance for it when I moved out of the private sector. I may not be representative of the public sector as a whole, but do you still think I should be taking the same cut as everyone else in the sector? Or do you think maybe each area should be judged on its merits and cuts made on that basis rather than this blanket nonesense?
A measure against other countries in isolation is meaningless, you have to measure these things against a number of elements, i.e. private sector, other countries and standard of living, if you hope to get any kind of meaningful measure.
Most people in the private sector don't "take the risks" as you put it by the way. They are just employees like most public sector workers.0 -
So the public sector here get paid 19k more than the private and you want to have their wages reduced ...
Not just me, I think everyone in the country, as well as outside the country. We are the laughing stock of the world. I know someone who had to move out of the public service, as they got married to someone from a different part of the country and they had to live there for family reasons. The pay in the private sector was much much worse than the cosy public sector job, there was much more pressure in the private sector, no long tea breaks, sickies etc, and no pension. As I wrote, a few foreigners pointed out to me recently they thought that the people in the wealth creating sector, who collect and pay the taxes and who take the risks, should actually be paid more than the public sector, perish the thought ! Oh, by the way, the person lost their job in the private sector, as the business closed down....how many people have lost their jobs in the public sector ?0 -
Most people in the private sector don't "take the risks" as you put it by the way. They are just employees like most public sector workers.
The risk is in being employed by a company; who by nature take risks to make money as all companies do. It doesn't always work out and when it doesn't the employee suffers weather it be pay cuts or job loss. sure it looks great when a company does well and rewards its employee's accordingly, but guess what the public sector benefits from that risk without having taken the risk, as more money collected in gains taxes means more money for the public sector. I seem to remember a Health service IT project a few years back worth millions, That in the end didn't work, Those people on this project still kept there jobs, In the private sector they would have been looking for jobs elsewhere.
public sector seem to miss the point that the money that's normally generated in the private sector to pay you all IS NOT THERE.
Hence the tax hikes, With the way some are bitching I wish the government had more balls and cut the public sector wage bill.0 -
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Labor is ****ed over twice - once by the capitalists who expropriate the wealth created by society and second by the gov. The only difference is that money taken in tax (partially) goes back into public circulation by paying for the upkeep of social facilities. Theres a bill to be footed - the question is whos going to foot it ?
The notion that value is created by force of owning capital or occupying high manegerial station is nonsence, value originates in social labor. For instance if a shareholder or CEO sees a 600% rise in profits while the average wage stagnates, it is because the (rate of exploitation) has risen - its (not) because the CEO or shareholder has somehow become 600 times more productive or intelligent.
Why not nationalize the corrib gas fields ? Get rid of grossly overpaid consultants, upper administration - both public and private sectors ? end the 103 million per year sub for private education - horse racing subs ect ? calculate which TNCs wont incur departure costs and tax them the EU average ? The notion that we have an inflated overfunded public sector is a myth. Acording to the last OCED survey we spend less per head on the public sector than any nation in Europe. For instance we actually (decreased) spending on education from 5.2% in 1995 to 4.6% in 2005 - celtic tiger.
Radical alternatives are needed0 -
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http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/public-sector-pay-soars-by-44pc-over-average-industrial-income-684106.html
Well, in mid 2007 Official wage figures issued by the Central Statistics Office showed the average public servant earns €46,729 a year. This is 44pc higher than the average industrial wage of €32,431. I reckon with benchmarking this has widened since, so Jimmy probably aint far off on his figures.
Intuitively, it makes sense, there are thousands and thousands of private sector workers on minimum wage or very low pay. In the private sector, clerical officers with leaving certs start on around the same amount as honors graduates that I would employ. This is without taking into account the fact the these graduates work minimum 40 unflexible hours, and anything over that aint paid. They also only get only 20 days holidays and will never get more than 25 no matter how long they work. The pensions they contribute to themselves are now almost worthless, and we've had to let a decent number go before xmas. All in all, I think there is a definite inequity between public and private remuneration packages. This needs to be addressed as the wage bill is crippling us, and is essentially being paid for by the private sector in the most part.0 -
I may not be representative of the public sector as a whole, but do you still think I should be taking the same cut as everyone else in the sector? Or do you think maybe each area should be judged on its merits and cuts made on that basis rather than this blanket nonesense?
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find reasonable people (public or private sector) who don't think that what you suggest makes sense. The problem is that the public sector unions want everyone treated on a blanket basis. They don't want individual performance based promotions or bonuses. They don't want managers to have the ability to selectively remove under-achievers. They don't want workers to be incentivised to work harder or more efficiently as it forces everyone to pick up their game.
This approach inevitably leads to divisiveness as inefficiency is seen as ultimately being rewarded with pay increments. And it ensures that there is constant unfairness when it comes to cuts.
You are absolutely right - how can it be fair that someone who works hard and gets paid a smaller salary takes a bigger relative hit due to the pension levy than some overpaid middle-manager with a manufactured role pushing papers around all day and scratching his a*se?
But given the flawed "one for all" system protected by the unions and the constant capitulation to them by the government, there simply isn't a "fair" way of administering cuts as you suggest.0 -
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find reasonable people (public or private sector) who don't think that what you suggest makes sense. The problem is that the public sector unions want everyone treated on a blanket basis. They don't want individual performance based promotions or bonuses. They don't want managers to have the ability to selectively remove under-achievers. They don't want workers to be incentivised to work harder or more efficiently as it forces everyone to pick up their game. This approach inevitably leads to divisiveness as inefficiency is seen as ultimately being rewarded with pay increments. And it ensures that there is constant unfairness when it comes to cuts.
The democratization of the workplace is in order - the type of stratified despotism your refering to should be torn apart. Consolidating all initiative into a handful of jumped up fascists is inherently de-humanizing. The alienation and commodification of labor breeds apathy.
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Money Shot wrote: »http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/public-sector-pay-soars-by-44pc-over-average-industrial-income-684106.html
Well, in mid 2007 Official wage figures issued by the Central Statistics Office showed the average public servant earns €46,729 a year. This is 44pc higher than the average industrial wage of €32,431. I reckon with benchmarking this has widened since, so Jimmy probably aint far off on his figures.
Your links actually tell different stories from on another. The one you focus on claims a differential of 44%; the other one, less sensationalist, suggests a range of 10 to 30%.
I don't accept an Irish Independent journalist's version of the average industrial wage when the CSO has shown higher figures.0 -
Not that I don't agree public servants are well paid, but is it really fair to be comparing their wages against the average industrial? I believe the average industrial is made up of a select group of workers and wouldn't take in the broader disciplines of some public sector workers.P. Breathnach wrote: »I don't accept an Irish Independent journalist's version of the average industrial wage when the CSO has shown higher figures.
What we'd need is a tighter comparison really - for example comparing the wages of a bank teller against that of a clerical officer (doing a quick google, the civil servant got paid more).0 -
Not that I don't agree public servants are well paid, but is it really fair to be comparing their wages against the average industrial? I believe the average industrial is made up of a select group of workers and wouldn't take in the broader disciplines of some public sector workers.
What we'd need is a tighter comparison really - for example comparing the wages of a bank teller against that of a clerical officer (doing a quick google, the civil servant got paid more).
I think that is coming closer to a fair basis for comparison -- get as near to like-with-like as possible. I don't know whether the work of a bank teller is a good match for the CO, but I agree that there is more sense in such an approach.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »I think that is coming closer to a fair basis for comparison -- get as near to like-with-like as possible. I don't know whether the work of a bank teller is a good match for the CO, but I agree that there is more sense in such an approach.
Which makes me wonder how did they benchmark?
Anyway, I think that is a fairer comparison as is using Financial/Banking and even Construction averages. To me Average Industrial Wage isn't as relevant as it used to be.
I'd say the CSO figures would be more reliable too.
Anyway, we could argue about who gets paid what, but I think it's safe to say that most Public Servants are reasonably, some even well paid.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Which makes me wonder how did they benchmark?
It was supposed to be like-with-like.Anyway, I think that is a fairer comparison as is using Financial/Banking and even Construction averages.
One random comparator is is good or as bad as another.To me Average Industrial Wage isn't as relevant as it used to be.
I'd say the CSO figures would be more reliable too.
Both points agreed.Anyway, we could argue about who gets paid what, but I think it's safe to say that most Public Servants are reasonably, some even well paid.
Also agreed. It is implicit in the way you put things that you do not see all public servants as grossly overpaid, although some might be. Perhaps we need a new round of benchmarking to align public sector pay with the new realities.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »Your links actually tell different stories from on another. The one you focus on claims a differential of 44%; the other one, less sensationalist, suggests a range of 10 to 30%.
I don't accept an Irish Independent journalist's version of the average industrial wage when the CSO has shown higher figures.
I only threw up those links to show that there is plenty of info out there on the subject, and all the ones I've read suggests an inequity.
Anyway, I think the most saliant point is that we, as a country, can no longer afford a public sector wage bill so large. It simply has to come down, and if they can't get rid of people, they must reduce wages.0 -
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**** mate only just heard about this but hey what about the reserves????
Are we in trouble then or what cause Im bigging it up to join soon you see what im getting at?0
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