Teachers vote for industrial action

rainbowtrout

NatDonegal wrote: »

Class sizes, transports costs, free books, computers etc... so what... most of the employed population today managed without them. Just be professional and let's get on with it.

Do you have any sense of reality about the knock on effect of the cuts?

Eg. class sizes, an increase in pupil teacher ratio means less teachers in a school, so classes overall have to get bigger. In my school there are 4 math classes in fifth year, next year there will be three. Two of the ordinary level classes with about 15 in each will be one class of 30. I can already hear your argument of ... it was like that in my day and i turned out alright. Students today are different, they have shorter attention spans due to having so much other distractions around them (mainly technology based). In a smaller class they can have lots of attention and help. Not so in a bigger class.


More parents are commuting today than they were 10 years ago, school transport is essential to them, but it's going to cost more this septemeber.

In my school students can rent their books for the year for about €60. A full set of books will cost a parent in the region of €300. And that's only for one child. I pity the parents who have more than one child in school.


People didn't go into jobs that required computers 10 years ago, not on a wide scale. Most employees now are expected to have basic computer skills. many students learn these skills at school....

NatDonegal

E.T. i'm sure savings found in the education sector would be spent in the education sector. And let me emphasize that i am NOT anti-special needs funding. I'm sorry that it put it across that way. My point is the majority of students will find the strike more of a block to their education than these cuts.

E.T.

NatDonegal that's fine. It's good to hear your point explained more fully. The thing is, with the government having proved time and time again that education is not one of their priorities, I really don't believe that any money we (teachers) give up would be put back into this area. I just don't believe it for a second.

segaBOY

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where even though we are facing financial ruin at debt levels of over 9.5% of our GDP and unemployment soaring to 10.4% and beyond, yet still, an excess of 100,000 people with secure well paid jobs march and are prepared to strike over a pay cut of less than 9% of their wage. (even less after tax).

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where unions will blindly follow ICTU boss David Begg who earns in excess of €136,000 less expenses, paid with your subscriptions into calls for industrial action over fairness, even though, his salary is a long way from fair. (Source http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/union-chiefs-on-big-wages-unite-against-pay-cuts-1613952.html)

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where the public service will blame the Government yet fail to provide one decent bit of proposed policy that should be implemented to get us out of this mess. Decent being the operative word here, policy that proposes telling "tax tourists" to stay away from our shores only leads to less money being spent here. Fairness is the point of that one, otherwise known as begrudgery to those who earn more.

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where amazing things happen, including time travel, where people are content on finding a time machine that can land us back in the 80s. For further information on this time machine visit www.ictu.ie

Hillel

segaBOY wrote: »

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where even though we are facing financial ruin at debt levels of over 9.5% of our GDP and unemployment soaring to 10.4% and beyond, yet still, an excess of 100,000 people with secure well paid jobs march and are prepared to strike over a pay cut of less than 9% of their wage. (even less after tax).

I have always tried to take a balanced approach and understand everyone's point of view. However, the self-serving cant from teachers and other public sector workers here on boards quite literally turns my stomach. What a selfish, arrogant, lot many, not all, of them are. If their position is indicative of the general public service, then god help us all!

I don't believe it is. I know many teachers who are sickened by the stance being taken by their colleagues. They are literally afraid to state this openly as they would be victimised by their colleagues. (Those same colleagues who teach our children.) There is a compelling case for reform within the educational system. Those teachers that are contributing, and truly have their pupils interests at heart, need to be encouraged and supported. Those that aren't need to be ruthlessly weeded out.

I'm quitting boards, now. I have no further interest in this meaningless debate. I am also saddened that I will never again have the same respect for the teacher population that I had until the current crisis. It is clear that, for far too many, personal interests that precedence over the needs of the children in their care and the country as a whole. What a truly depressing vista.

Good Bye.

Alessandra

Hillel wrote: »

I know many teachers who are sickened by the stance being taken by their colleagues. They are literally afraid to state this openly as they would be victimised by their colleagues. (Those same colleagues who teach our children.)

Hang on a second. Their is no mutiny between teachers. I know many of my colleagues who were adamantly voting "NO" until they read the ballot. There was no option under the circumstances but to vote yes. Get this straight, it is not simply about the pension levy but about the more drastic implications of the the education cutbacks on the rights and needs of our children to a decent education.
Cowen will try to promote our so called knowledge economy as our chance to improve the situation. Let me tell you, once the full force of cutbacks are implemented our children will suffer the consequences academically.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

Hang on a second. Their is no mutiny between teachers. I know many of my colleagues who were adamantly voting "NO" until they read the ballot. There was no option under the circumstances but to vote yes. Get this straight, it is not simply about the pension levy but about the more drastic implications of the the education cutbacks on the rights and needs of our children to a decent education.
Cowen will try to promote our so called knowledge economy as our chance to improve the situation. Let me tell you, once the full force of cutbacks are implemented our children will suffer the consequences academically.

Perhaps a two seperate ballots would solve the problem?

1. Should we accept the pension levy, Y/N

2. Should we accept budget cutbacks besides those that effect our wages? Y/N

Alessandra

segaBOY wrote: »

Perhaps a two seperate ballots would solve the problem?

1. Should we accept the pension levy, Y/N

2. Should we accept budget cutbacks besides those that effect our wages? Y/N

No I don't agree. I think the industrial action is needed to show the large scale disatisfaction with the cutbacks including the pension levy. Two separate ballots would be confusing and a waste to be honest.
Teachers want to send the government a message of the general dissatisaction in the ranks.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

No I don't agree. I think the industrial action is needed to show the large scale disatisfaction with the cutbacks including the pension levy. Two separate ballots would be confusing and a waste to be honest.
Teachers want to send the government a message of the general dissatisaction in the ranks.

Eh, confusing? I thought ye guys all had degrees and H Dips and so forth, give me a break a junior cert pass english student could navigate two separate ballots.

You seem to find it hard to separate your own wages from the welfare of your students, I for one agree with the pension levy but not with education cutbacks, by mixing the two in together you are making your case weaker if anything by alienating the public who agree (and there are quite a few) with the pension levy.

nesf

Alessandra wrote: »

No I don't agree. I think the industrial action is needed to show the large scale disatisfaction with the cutbacks including the pension levy. Two separate ballots would be confusing and a waste to be honest.
Teachers want to send the government a message of the general dissatisaction in the ranks.

You are aware the deficit for just this year in the Budget is approximately one third of total budget spending yeah?

Lemming

Alessandra wrote: »

No I don't agree. I think the industrial action is needed to show the large scale disatisfaction with the cutbacks including the pension levy. Two separate ballots would be confusing and a waste to be honest.

More on this in a second ... But first:

Teachers want to send the government a message of the general dissatisaction in the ranks.

And what message is that? For/Against the pension levy whilst for/against the cutbacks? Which combination is that now? How on gods green earth is "sending a message" using an all-encompassing overly-simplified-to-the-point-of-f*cktarded-stupidity ballot going to send a clear message?

So, having two separate ballot questions is confusing, but sending a one-size-fits-all message isn't confusing? Ummmm. Okayyyyyy.

At the moment we have all manner of public service workers clamouring over everything. None of which is being indicated to the government as a clear and concise message. So if you want the government to actually do something, perhaps addressing this fundamental point might be your first order of business? Followed swiftly thereafter by a realisation that whatever you're after is in all likelihood not going to be delivered since there isn't the money for it.

segaBOY

....or they could ballot on different suggestions they want to give to the government to get us out of this mess....no no no, a strike is probably more productive :rolleyes:

K-9

The replies on this page sums it up.

As for job losses, it has been estimated a job loss costs €20,000 to the tax payer between SW and tax losses.

Average PS Pay is €48/49,000.

YEP, we do actually save by cutting PS Jobs.

Alessandra

segaBOY wrote: »

Eh, confusing? I thought ye guys all had degrees and H Dips and so forth, give me a break a junior cert pass english student could navigate two separate ballots.

You seem to find it hard to separate your own wages from the welfare of your students, I for one agree with the pension levy but not with education cutbacks, by mixing the two in together you are making your case weaker if anything by alienating the public who agree (and there are quite a few) with the pension levy.

I'm tired but here is what I think.
Yes of course you agree with pension levy as most people are resentul of the salary of teachers yet have no concept of what the role of teacher incompasses(teacher, mother, father, zookeeper, babysitter, I could go on.)..This is not the issue here though


A pension levy and possible cut in wages is hard to swallow and teachers are annoyed about it. Are we not in a democracy and entitled to voice disatisfaction? The guards are taking steps to show they are not happy(the ad campaign). Why is it that teachers are ripped to shredS for voicing disquiet. Fair enough people in the private sector are losing their jobs, taking paycuts etc. These were some of the same people with lucratiVe positions in the boom earning far and above the salary of a humble teacher. Some may say the public sector is overpaid.. These are people who don't personally know a teacher. People do not enter the sector for the lure of money because it doesn't pay enough for the amount of hassle we put up with on a daily basis.

Don't think public sector people are cushioned from this recession, part-time positions lost, hours being cut. Not to mention many public sector employees have spouses losing jobs.

Two separate ballots would have been a waste of time. Nobody is happy with the pension levy nor the cutbacks. My opinon is that if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys. It's clear our government places little value on the future of children, with those most vulnerable shouldering the results of poor governance.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

I'm tired but here is what I think.
Yes of course you agree with pension levy as most people are resentul of the salary of teachers yet have no concept of what the role of teacher incompasses(teacher, mother, father, zookeeper, babysitter, I could go on.)..This is not the issue here though

Well I'm not resentful of your salary tbh. I think the pension levy should (and does) apply across the board and not just to teachers, my suppot of the pension levy aint nothing to do with teachers, it's to do with the realisation of the money that must be saved in the coming months. I'm not argueing with how tough your job may/may not be just showing that I support the levy, and it's not due to any resentment just a realistic outlook on cutbacks that must be made.

Alessandra wrote: »

A pension levy and possible cut in wages is hard to swallow and teachers are annoyed about it. Are we not in a democracy and entitled to voice disatisfaction? The guards are taking steps to show they are not happy(the ad campaign). Why is it that teachers are ripped to shredS for voicing disquiet. Fair enough people in the private sector are losing their jobs, taking paycuts etc. These were some of the same people with lucratiVe positions in the boom earning far and above the salary of a humble teacher. Some may say the public sector is overpaid.. These are people who don't personally know a teacher. People do not enter the sector for the lure of money because it doesn't pay enough for the amount of hassle we put up with on a daily basis.

Massive job losses and serious paycuts in the private sector are also hard to swallow but they get on with the job at hand, if they don't they lose their job.

I disagree, I have considered a career as a secondary teacher myself and money was a major aspect of it, especially comparing what the starting wage is for a teacher compared to other graduate posts.

Alessandra wrote: »

Don't think public sector people are cushioned from this recession, part-time positions lost, hours being cut. Not to mention many public sector employees have spouses losing jobs.

Sure, but any blow ye may have to take ye make a big song and dance and show every level of unproductive resistance about it, i.e. strikes.

Alessandra wrote: »

Two separate ballots would have been a waste of time. Nobody is happy with the pension levy nor the cutbacks. My opinon is that if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys. It's clear our government places little value on the future of children, with those most vulnerable shouldering the results of poor governance.

So you're basically admitting that it IS about your wages after all, fair enough Best of luck getting public support by clouding the matter at hand with cutbacks affecting our children.

And it wasn't so long ago when I was affected by teachers striking when I was a student, well you did eventually get your €50 an hour for supervision so fair play for milking the system when you could.

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

My opinon is that if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys.

It has been pointed out on this thread that they definitely are not paid peanuts.

Alessandra

segaBOY wrote: »

Well I'm not resentful of your salary tbh. I think the pension levy should (and does) apply across the board and not just to teachers, my suppot of the pension levy aint nothing to do with teachers, it's to do with the realisation of the money that must be saved in the coming months. I'm not argueing with how tough your job may/may not be just showing that I support the levy, and it's not due to any resentment just a realistic outlook on cutbacks that must be made.




Massive job losses and serious paycuts in the private sector are also hard to swallow but they get on with the job at hand, if they don't they lose their job.

I disagree, I have considered a career as a secondary teacher myself and money was a major aspect of it, especially comparing what the starting wage is for a teacher compared to other graduate posts.


Sure, but any blow ye may have to take ye make a big song and dance and show every level of unproductive resistance about it, i.e. strikes.



So you're basically admitting that it IS about your wages after all, fair enough Best of luck getting public support by clouding the matter at hand with cutbacks affecting our children.

And it wasn't so long ago when I was affected by teachers striking when I was a student, well you did eventually get your €50 an hour for supervision so fair play for milking the system when you could.

Typical responses tbh..

If you really wanted to be a teacher, wages wouldn't really come into it. In comparison to "other graduates" yes the money may be better but you have to look at the fact that teaching doesn't suit everyone who graduates college and in order to get decent teachers you have to pay. Consider teachers have a degree AND H.Dip with many having masters.

There is no strike action planned, it is "up to and including strike action". Yes the ballot is about the levy and the cuts. I am not sure but think that many will reluctantly accept the levy but a further proposed income cut would be too much.

Just as the cuts in education spending affect the children, they affect the teacher also. Bigger classes is a decrease in working conditions for teachers. Language support, SNA, Learning support, sport etc will all be cut. These are also vital to any student and vital to ensure the child has the best environment to work in.

Parents have been protesting since these cuts have been made and teachers have given up their time on saturdays to attend the protests. Teaching is a caring profession whether you believe that or not. Most teachers live for the job, rather than to pay the bills. If I didn't like teaching, i'd take a lower paid job in return for less stress. I teach because it's a personally rewarding(not purely economically) profession.


Yes I was in school the time of the strikes over supervision myself but discussion on that resolved issue is nothing to do with the present one.

Alessandra

K-9 wrote: »

It has been pointed out on this thread that they definitely are not paid peanuts.

I never suggested otherwise.

Bearing in mind education costs for 4-5 years, the constant training etc that is part and parcel of the profession, it's an entirely reasonable level of pay for what's involved.
But then again it's hard to explain to many people who have no concept of what a teacher does.

Why were you not tempted by the "high wages" yourself if it's so good?

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

I never suggested otherwise.

Why mention peanuts then?

Alessandra wrote:

Bearing in mind education costs for 4-5 years, the constant training etc that is part and parcel of the profession, it's an entirely reasonable level of pay for what's involved.

You get allowances for these degrees etc. to compensate.

Alessandra wrote:

But then again it's hard to explain to many people who have no concept of what a teacher does.

No concept? What are these things most people have no concept of?

Alessandra wrote:

Why were you not tempted by the "high wages" yourself if it's so good?

Never considered teaching.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

Typical responses tbh..

Lol, ok, I'll take your word for it, obviously get a lot of people disagreeing with you on this one then.

Alessandra wrote: »

If you really wanted to be a teacher, wages wouldn't really come into it. In comparison to "other graduates" yes the money may be better but you have to look at the fact that teaching doesn't suit everyone who graduates college and in order to get decent teachers you have to pay. Consider teachers have a degree AND H.Dip with many having masters.

Interesting, so money had absolutely nothing to do with your choice of career? Everyone has to live on something hun,if I asked you to do your job for free would you still do it cos you love being a teacher so much? Oh wait...you disagree with the pension levy-so obviously money does come into it :rolleyes:

Fair play on the education requirements, a hell of a lot of other people (including myself) have similar levels of education in the general economy.

Alessandra wrote: »

There is no strike action planned, it is "up to and including strike action". Yes the ballot is about the levy and the cuts. I am not sure but think that many will reluctantly accept the levy but a further proposed income cut would be too much.

True, but are you prepared to strike?

Alessandra wrote: »

Just as the cuts in education spending affect the children, they affect the teacher also. Bigger classes is a decrease in working conditions for teachers. Language support, SNA, Learning support, sport etc will all be cut. These are also vital to any student and vital to ensure the child has the best environment to work in.

Parents have been protesting since these cuts have been made and teachers have given up their time on saturdays to attend the protests. Teaching is a caring profession whether you believe that or not. Most teachers live for the job, rather than to pay the bills. If I didn't like teaching, i'd take a lower paid job in return for less stress. I teach because it's a personally rewarding(not purely economically) profession.

Typical response tbh (see past few posts you posted)

Alessandra wrote: »

Yes I was in school the time of the strikes over supervision myself but discussion on that resolved issue is nothing to do with the present one.

Of course it is, whenever the likes of nurses threaten strike their past striking history is always brought up!!

Alessandra

K-9 wrote: »

Why mention peanuts then?



You get allowances for these degrees etc. to compensate.



No concept? What are these things most people have no concept of?



Never considered teaching.

A cut in wages wouldn't attract people of the same calibre.

The job of a teacher is not easy but this has been repeated ad nauseum on boards and I am not getting into it.

I don't think there is much left to discuss with you.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

I never suggested otherwise.

Bearing in mind education costs for 4-5 years, the constant training etc that is part and parcel of the profession, it's an entirely reasonable level of pay for what's involved.
But then again it's hard to explain to many people who have no concept of what a teacher does.

Why were you not tempted by the "high wages" yourself if it's so good?

Most of the country where students at one time or another, if anything they got a flavour for what a teacher does.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

I don't think there is much left to discuss with you.

I am losing an arguement and cannot give K-9 detention, oh dear, run away

Alessandra

segaBOY wrote: »

Lol, ok, I'll take your word for it, obviously get a lot of people disagreeing with you on this one then.



Interesting, so money had absolutely nothing to do with your choice of career? Everyone has to live on something hun,(Don't patronise me)if I asked you to do your job for free would you still do it cos you love being a teacher so much? Oh wait...you disagree with the pension levy-so obviously money does come into it :rolleyes:

Fair play on the education requirements, a hell of a lot of other people (including myself) have similar levels of education in the general economy.




True, but are you prepared to strike?



!!

Maybe you do, well done.

I am not striking as I am not in a union, I am a sub. I will not be breaking the picket line however.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

Maybe you do, well done.

I am not striking as I am not in a union, I am a sub. I will not be breaking the picket line however.

So you won't turn up for work then? Some worker you are

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

A cut in wages wouldn't attract people of the same calibre.

But I thought money wasn't a major issue. Look, wages are being cut, job losses everywhere. Architects, Accountants etc. losing jobs.

Alessandra wrote:

The job of a teacher is not easy but this has been repeated ad nauseum on boards and I am not getting into it.

I didn't say it was. Mind answering the question and enlighten most people?

Alessandra wrote:

I don't think there is much left to discuss with you.

Probably not seeing as you didn't answer my question.

NatDonegal

Alessandra wrote: »

I never suggested otherwise.

Bearing in mind education costs for 4-5 years, the constant training etc that is part and parcel of the profession, it's an entirely reasonable level of pay for what's involved.
But then again it's hard to explain to many people who have no concept of what a teacher does.

Quite a lot of other people have 4 years of college behind them for their degrees, including myself, and after working 3 years after graduating i am not paid what the teacher's base salary is. I still consider my wage to be very good. BTW constant training is a requirement in most jobs... weak argument.

Plus, teachers work less hours in a week and far far less days in a year. Permanent teachers also enjoy job security. Factor in a fantastic guaranteed pension that should cost you 25 - 30% of your salary (never mind your 7% levy). A lot of workers have had their pension funds fall apart or drop significantly. Alessandra, face it you are way overpaid. Cut teacher salary... free up some money to fund special needs. Make leaving certificate marking compulsory for secondary school teachers... free up some more... as for the other cuts... so what...

The strike "for the good of the students" is crap. You are doing them more harm. I'm sure it will be pointless... we can't pay for what we can't afford..

Darlie

9 pages!!!
Nearly found an original thought or opinion in there somewhere. Turned out to be some form of smilie.

littlebsci

Like at least one other poster in this thread so far, I was in Leaving Cert year when our teachers went on strike in 2001. It didn’t do me or any of the students in my year who were bothered to do some work any harm. At that stage of your education you’re either going to put the effort in or not so I feel the argument that striking is going to harm current students is a bit extreme. Not that it has even been decided that teachers will strike.

Given the repetitive nature of this thread I only want to add one more point; it’s after 11pm and I’ve just finished my work for the evening having started at 7.30pm. I will do this two more nights this week and work through every free class I have between 9 and 4 all week. The way I see it, that brings my weekly working hours to over 35 which is by no means very far off the average persons weekly hours. And as such I feel quite aggrieved about the general “teachers work less hours in a week” statement. If I did then perhaps I might agree that I am “way overpaid” but no thanks I work just as many hours as my non-teaching friends and earn roughly the same as them so don’t tell me that my hours of work aren’t worth the same as theirs.

NatDonegal

Aye i know... Got to try to get through to these people... but the point just doesn't seem to sink in... :pac:

Hopefully they won't get paid for the days they strike.

Alessandra

NatDonegal wrote: »

Quite a lot of other people have 4 years of college behind them for their degrees, including myself, and after working 3 years after graduating i am not paid what the teacher's base salary is. I still consider my wage to be very good. BTW constant training is a requirement in most jobs... weak argument.

Plus, teachers work less hours in a week and far far less days in a year. Permanent teachers also enjoy job security. Factor in a fantastic guaranteed pension that should cost you 25 - 30% of your salary (never mind your 7% levy). A lot of workers have had their pension funds fall apart or drop significantly. Alessandra, face it you are way overpaid. Cut teacher salary... free up some money to fund special needs. Make leaving certificate marking compulsory for secondary school teachers... free up some more... as for the other cuts... so what...
The strike "for the good of the students" is crap. You are doing them more harm. I'm sure it will be pointless... we can't pay for what we can't afford..

Sorry if you are not making the money that teacher earns but the rates of pay have been negotiated and agreed upon for each member of the public sector. Any cuts to pay have got to be thrashed out and cannot be just deducted without consultation of the representatives. There remains an awful lot of uncertainty over how much the government will be deducting and from where.. Surely you can understand peoples dismay at facing a cut but not knowing how much etc and this is due to take effect soon I believe.
The lack of communication between the Government and the public sector in this regard is frustrating. Were it not the the governments mishandling of the public finances for the last 10 years we would not be facing this situation. How and ever I realise everyone must pitch in and contribute to get the economy back on track, that is what people believe. More consultation on the implications is what is necessary.



I am laughing at your idea that teachers should do the corrections for free, goes to show that ignorance really is bliss!

Darlie

Nat, striking workers won't be paid. The government would secretly love a strike. One way of cutting the costs!!

K-9

NatDonegal wrote: »

Quite a lot of other people have 4 years of college behind them for their degrees, including myself, and after working 3 years after graduating i am not paid what the teacher's base salary is. I still consider my wage to be very good. BTW constant training is a requirement in most jobs... weak argument.

Good point.

NatDonegal wrote:

Cut teacher salary... free up some money to fund special needs. Make leaving certificate marking compulsory for secondary school teachers... free up some more... as for the other cuts... so what...

The strike "for the good of the students" is crap. You are doing them more harm. I'm sure it will be pointless... we can't pay for what we can't afford..

Unfortunately like many things, the time to do that was during the boom. I accept loads of SNA's were hired and they made huge improvements on a dire service for Special needs students, but they could have done more.We could pick and choose during the bubble/boom, now there is little room.

Fair enough, we keep the special needs funding, were do we cut?
I'd love to get feedback from teachers on this particularly as they have experience of the area.

Benchmarking was such a waste to me. They gave it to everybody instead of concentrating on the real low paid. Unions looking after middle, not lower class workers.

littlebsci wrote: »

Like at least one other poster in this thread so far, I was in Leaving Cert year when our teachers went on strike in 2001. It didn’t do me or any of the students in my year who were bothered to do some work any harm. At that stage of your education you’re either going to put the effort in or not so I feel the argument that striking is going to harm current students is a bit extreme. Not that it has even been decided that teachers will strike.
Given the repetitive nature of this thread I only want to add one more point; it’s after 11pm and I’ve just finished my work for the evening having started at 7.30pm. I will do this two more nights this week and work through every free class I have between 9 and 4 all week. The way I see it, that brings my weekly working hours to over 35 which is by no means very far off the average persons weekly hours. And as such I feel quite aggrieved about the general “teachers work less hours in a week” statement. If I did then perhaps I might agree that I am “way overpaid” but no thanks I work just as many hours as my non-teaching friends and earn roughly the same as them so don’t tell me that my hours of work aren’t worth the same as theirs.

You do realise if you take that argument to an extreme, we don't need teachers at all? I take your point though.

littlebsci

K-9 wrote: »

You do realise if you take that argument to an extreme, we don't need teachers at all?

Fully understand what you mean. I was referring only to the damage some people have been suggesting will be done by one day of striking. I do want to have a job when the country gets back on track afterall! :rolleyes: .....Fingers crossed!!

ParkRunner

Darlie wrote: »

Nat, striking workers won't be paid. The government would secretly love a strike. One way of cutting the costs!!

It is quite perverse but you are totally right. If anyone thinks the unions are running this country I would love to see an example from the last 4 months of how the unions have influenced any government decision. A week long strike, apart from essential services would probably go a long way to sort out this year's deficit! No social welfare entitlement and no entitlement to pay.

Whereas with the threat of pay cuts, job cuts, increased levies, increased taxes hanging over the public sector, the private sector will suffer equally as badly with the sudden decline in spending on goods and services apart from the absolute necessities. I have seen evidence of this myself, from my own observations. The parts is definitely over.

K-9

EF wrote: »

It is quite perverse but you are totally right. If anyone thinks the unions are running this country I would love to see an example from the last 4 months of how the unions have influenced any government decision.

I think you'll find a lot of people have no problem with the Govts. approach in the last 4 months. They involved the Unions in the tough decisions, the Unions threw a tantrum. Tough. If we can't reach decisions through consensus, Govts. act. It may not be popular and get union approval but that's what Govts. are there for.

We only wish instead of caving into Union demands for the last 7/8 years, they had led then.

Look, people accuse FF of being populist and they are right.

They now have to act and they will suffer in the elections. Politicians get flack, but in times like this they have to put the country first and act, despite the criticism.

NatDonegal

littlebsci wrote: »

Like at least one other poster in this thread so far, I was in Leaving Cert year when our teachers went on strike in 2001. It didn’t do me or any of the students in my year who were bothered to do some work any harm. At that stage of your education you’re either going to put the effort in or not so I feel the argument that striking is going to harm current students is a bit extreme. Not that it has even been decided that teachers will strike.

Given the repetitive nature of this thread I only want to add one more point; it’s after 11pm and I’ve just finished my work for the evening having started at 7.30pm. I will do this two more nights this week and work through every free class I have between 9 and 4 all week. The way I see it, that brings my weekly working hours to over 35 which is by no means very far off the average persons weekly hours. And as such I feel quite aggrieved about the general “teachers work less hours in a week” statement. If I did then perhaps I might agree that I am “way overpaid” but no thanks I work just as many hours as my non-teaching friends and earn roughly the same as them so don’t tell me that my hours of work aren’t worth the same as theirs.

What if a student has difficulty with something.. needs it explained? I remember teaching myself math when teachers were striking 2 - 3 days a week... i needed a good grade to gain entry to my chosen course.

I accept you work same hours during the week, i retract my statment. But still... all those holidays... :rolleyes:

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

Sorry if you are not making the money that teacher earns but the rates of pay have been negotiated and agreed upon for each member of the public sector. Any cuts to pay have got to be thrashed out and cannot be just deducted without consultation of the representatives.

Completely wrong, this isn't a bubble economy anymore. Everybody made mistakes, Govt., Unions, Employers, Private Sector workers not in Unions. We all suffer as we all gained.

Alessandra wrote:

There remains an awful lot of uncertainty over how much the government will be deducting and from where.. Surely you can understand peoples dismay at facing a cut but not knowing how much etc and this is due to take effect soon I believe.

There is, through Unions saying low paid workers lose €40/60 a week. They don't, unless 50/60k is low paid. The figures are widely available, please read up and do the Maths, not accept what Unions tell you.

Alessandra wrote:

The lack of communication between the Government and the public sector in this regard is frustrating. Were it not the the governments mishandling of the public finances for the last 10 years we would not be facing this situation. How and ever I realise everyone must pitch in and contribute to get the economy back on track, that is what people believe. More consultation on the implications is what is necessary.

To a point there is lack of communication. The pension timebomb wasn't explained during the boom/bubble. Then again Unions didn't want to know.

Govt. mishandled the finances, Unions knew how to spend those mishandled finances.

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

To a point there is lack of communication. The pension timebomb wasn't explained during the boom/bubble. Then again Unions didn't want to know.

Govt. mishandled the finances, Unions knew how to spend those mishandled finances.

We would have had no boom and property timebomb had the banks been more prudent so at this stage we can all be fighting on the way down but nothing will be achieved. I await with great interest tomorrows annoucement of mini budget day to see how long it is until everyone takes the next hit.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

Sorry if you are not making the money that teacher earns but the rates of pay have been negotiated and agreed upon for each member of the public sector. Any cuts to pay have got to be thrashed out and cannot be just deducted without consultation of the representatives. There remains an awful lot of uncertainty over how much the government will be deducting and from where.. Surely you can understand peoples dismay at facing a cut but not knowing how much etc and this is due to take effect soon I believe.
The lack of communication between the Government and the public sector in this regard is frustrating. Were it not the the governments mishandling of the public finances for the last 10 years we would not be facing this situation. How and ever I realise everyone must pitch in and contribute to get the economy back on track, that is what people believe. More consultation on the implications is what is necessary.



I am laughing at your idea that teachers should do the corrections for free, goes to show that ignorance really is bliss!

Your arrogancy amazes me, if you where in the private sector you can be guaranteed that not only would you be told to correct papers for free you would have been given a pay cut long ago and told to take a hike if you acted in the way teachers are threatening to act now.

If you can't realise that we are in seriously dire straights now and can't afford to keep everything in the public service the same as it was within boom times you are just plain selfish. The threat is real, there was talks of the IMF stepping in to take control of our economy not so long ago.

Instead of dodging my points as you usually do Alessandra can I ask you what do you think would happen if the IMF stepped in?

Here's a hint:http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/EconDebacle_Argentina.html

I can tell you now that it would not be pretty and you would have an awful lot more to worry about than a pension levy or a few part timers losing their jobs.

We all are in this together and we all need to act together, instead of bickering with each other we all need to do our duty.

Put up or shut up.

Rant over.

K-9

EF wrote: »

We would have had no boom and property timebomb had the banks been more prudent so at this stage we can all be fighting on the way down but nothing will be achieved. I await with great interest tomorrows annoucement of mini budget day to see how long it is until everyone takes the next hit.

Look, I Think most people don't care anymore. We want solutions, not blame. We know who is to blame and they will pay.

When people all around your company and job are being let go, you want solutions, not the blame game.

segaBOY

+1 that's my attitude at this stage too

givyjoe81

Fredser wrote: »

I am a teacher. Listen carefully to what I am about to say regarding the two positives you mentioned above. Are you sure you and all the other ill-informed are listening. Oi, you at the back listen up or you will find yourself on detention......

SECURITY - NONE. Good chance of me having no job this September. See that's not very secure is it. Understand?

HOLIDAYS - UNPAID. I'd rather be working and earning money during the holidays. See?


Maybe some research in future before composing more embarrassing drivel.

Oh really, so could it be safely said that you dont have a permanent position? Which is why you dont get paid when YOUR NOT WORKING?? I dont know for sure, but is my understanding that teacher who HAVE secured a permanent position DO have job security and ARE paid for holidays, i.e the monster summer break that teachers get. My gosh what a hard life( im sure you work hard, but so does everyone else), drivel indeed.

The majority of teachers are not underpaid, do not suffer from lack of job security and DO get excellent holidays and benefits, yet this majority will/ have voted for strike action. Come off it guys, are you striking to fight for students or against the pension levy. The class sizes. facilities etc have been on the slide for years, but you choose to go on strike now?! Coincidence?!

givyjoe81

Alessandra wrote: »

Typical responses tbh..

If you really wanted to be a teacher, wages wouldn't really come into it. In comparison to "other graduates" yes the money may be better but you have to look at the fact that teaching doesn't suit everyone who graduates college and in order to get decent teachers you have to pay. Consider teachers have a degree AND H.Dip with many having masters.

There is no strike action planned, it is "up to and including strike action". Yes the ballot is about the levy and the cuts. I am not sure but think that many will reluctantly accept the levy but a further proposed income cut would be too much.

Just as the cuts in education spending affect the children, they affect the teacher also. Bigger classes is a decrease in working conditions for teachers. Language support, SNA, Learning support, sport etc will all be cut. These are also vital to any student and vital to ensure the child has the best environment to work in.

Parents have been protesting since these cuts have been made and teachers have given up their time on saturdays to attend the protests. Teaching is a caring profession whether you believe that or not. Most teachers live for the job, rather than to pay the bills. If I didn't like teaching, i'd take a lower paid job in return for less stress. I teach because it's a personally rewarding(not purely economically) profession.

I dont doubt the quality of your education and im not going to start blowing my horn about mine, but you would do well to brush up on education starting with economics. How do you expect a government to continue to pay wages which are far higher in contrast to other comparable nations(public sector workers on average, including teachers) when the government has less money coming in, that it has going out. No business/government can sustain this situation hence you see so many people in the public sector losing their job.

Now obviously this cant happen to the same extent in the public sector, owing to the fact the same numbers of staff or more are needed in areas such as teaching etc. So what can they do?? I dont know, introduce a pension levy perhaps? Or maybe they should have just gone for your wages straight off the bat. Public sector workers have to share in the pain, and according to your unions it seems you dont want to, honestly if i hear one more union clown spouting on about 'fairness' im gonna hunt them down..

oldmillgal

Strike called for the 30th.

nesf

oldmillgal wrote: »

Strike called for the 30th.

My opinions are stated here already: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055506464

I'm not going to repeat them in this thread.

NewDubliner

segaBOY wrote: »

there was talks of the IMF stepping in to take control of our economy not so long ago.

were there? Source please?

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

Hmm teachers are unpopular with the general public. My colleagues are going to lose 500eu a month, kids in college, husbands lost jobs!! May not get anywhere but it's going to happen.

I reckon there will be 2 days, one the day of general public service strike day and another teachers strike day.

€500 a month?

nesf

K-9 wrote: »

€500 a month?

At €100,000 a year your net loss is approx €415 a month, so eh Teachers on over €100K?

Unless of course she's being disingenuous and calling the gross figure as "down per month" in order to make the levy seem harsher.