Teachers vote for industrial action

Hillel

Trotter wrote: »

Can I just appeal to people here though not to cloud their judgement with hatred of the teaching profession. Christ I try my best in my job and all I've got in the last year is abuse from all angles. I cant speak for everyone but I do my best for the children I teach, and I want the government out because of their treatment of us, and their abuse of power and our money.

I am genuinely sorry that you're getting abuse from all angles. I have been in that position and its tough. I don't doubt that you and many, many, others do their best for the children they teach. I have direct, first-hand, knowledge of work, well beyond the call of duty that many teachers do. I have also stated my genuine belief that teaching is one of the most important professions in the country.

This debate is not about the worth of teaching, that is beyond doubt. Rather it is about what is a fair and reasonable remuneration for teachers vs other public and private sector workers. In that context, and given the relevant T's & C's in the public and private sectors, I believe that the levy is fair for permanent staff. I also believe that it does not go far enough - particularly in the case of teachers well up the incremental scale.

For the record, my 15% pay cut was voluntary. My contract did not allow a unilateral pay cut but I took it in the interests of a struggling company where the only other option is staff layoffs. (And yes, I too have a mortgage and all the other bills. And yes, I am finding it tough but solidarity with more recent recruits mandated my action.)
Gute Nacht

Trotter

Hillel wrote: »

I believe that the levy is fair for permanent staff. I also believe that it does not go far enough - particularly in the case of teachers well up the incremental scale.

Yes but the levy in its current form takes 7% off the lowest paid workers. Thats not fair. It cant be considered fair. I think you'd agree with that. Therefore, the ICTU's fight to have the levy as it stands abolished and replaced with something fairer, is justified.

Nite now!

SkepticOne

Trotter wrote: »

Therefore, the ICTU's fight to have the levy as it stands abolished and replaced with something fairer, is justified.

Exactly what do they want it replaced with?

ixoy

SkepticOne wrote: »

Exactly what do they want it replaced with?

Something more fair and more equitable of course

To be fair, there's a very narrow gap on the % cut from the lowest paid to the highest paid. I think there was some number crunching done and it's not as bad it initially seems, but if I were the government I'd keep the lower rate and knock up the rate at higher levels - the rich will then be seen to have to pay more and the government would rake in even more cash.

themont85

What are the teachers striking about?

As part of the ICTU wide farce. A real mob rule mentality creepy into this country, is the union trying to bring the Govt down? Because the aim of the strike is something along the lines of 'protesting against the Govt's handling of the economic crisis and let them know the public grievences'. I'm sure they know lads, opinion polls are used within political circles.

This is another shining example of how much our country has gone to ****.

The Govt, the unions, the public en masse fecked up in times past.

ICTU's 10 point plan is a absolute joke. Dreamed up by a bunch who don't have to deal with actual problems beyond the fact that they tell employers and Govt they can shut the whole shop down for the sake of a few euros. Muppets.

Now the unions are exasporating the problem, this will be shown on Sky News et al. ****s sake our image is nearly as bad as Icelands at this stage and these bloody strikes are just making things worse.

nesf

old boy wrote: »

the future of any country is its children, if children are not educated properly it affects our future, if they are highly educated if also affects our future, de velera took science out of the classroom and installed religon, it took until the nintys to recover, an old f.f. ploy, keep them ingorant, then they will then know no better, him and mc quaid have a lot to answer for

And bluntly so long as so many bad teachers are locked into permanent jobs in the system our children will be pretty screwed anyway. My memories of school are blighted by the amount of genuinely dumb people who teach in the system. The solidarity that protects temporary teachers also protects these muppets and so long as this status quo is held, I'll never have much sympathy for the teaching unions (as opposed to actually good teachers who know the subject well and who actually care about their ability to teach, who I do have immense sympathy for).

That said, I'm completely with you on De Valera who was a nutcase who should never have been left close to running the country never mind designing its political institutions.

Hillel

Trotter wrote: »

Yes but the levy in its current form takes 7% off the lowest paid workers. Thats not fair. It cant be considered fair. I think you'd agree with that. Therefore, the ICTU's fight to have the levy as it stands abolished and replaced with something fairer, is justified.

Neither is it fair that, under threat of general disruption, those least affected by the current meltdown -i.e. permanent, pensionable public servants, are avoiding taking anything approaching their fair proportion of the cutbacks. In avoiding this very necessary action they are not only shafting the country as a whole, they are also shafting their own colleagues who do not have permanent status. This is a real case of short term gain as any government worth its salt will address this in the medium term.

is_that_so

I'm a bit tired of "fair" at this stage. It has become an excuse for the ABUs(Anyone but Us can take the pain) and IMO the teacher unions are no different. It is very easy to say "I'll take the pain providing it's fair" and I'm happy to say so myself. Yet there are many, many people out there who seem to think that their lifestyles can continue unaffected. They also seem to think it extends to their workplace, yet some people are in as much denial as the government.
Personally don't agree with the SNAs being targeted and even the increase in class numbers is not ideal but we are in a bad, bad place. Unions being angry adds to the impression of those not part of one, that they are merely feathering their own nests, looking after their own and have nothing constructive to offer.

turgon

As regards the unions reason to protest as giving out about the "handing of the economic crisis." Thats just a farce. A teachers union does not have a mandate to judge the government on its general performance in government, except at specific cases where the latters decisions are directly linked to the members of the union. Sure protest about the levy, but the union is not entitled to protest because of general bad governance.

It just shows how powerful the Unions have become under FF. They've gotten way out of control, and there is not one party in Ireland with the balls to face up to them.

ParkRunner

turgon wrote: »

It just shows how powerful the Unions have become under FF. They've gotten way out of control, and there is not one party in Ireland with the balls to face up to them.

If this was true well then the civil and public servants would all be looking forward to the implementation of the agreed Towards 2016 pay increases. The pension levy is now in force since March 1st also and it will not be reversed so I think FF are facing up to the unions, despite over 100k marching the streets a few weeks back.

The mini budget will be coming in about the time of the planned strike so I think it is fair to say the government are ploughing ahead regardless, not that Im a FF supporter. The pain is going to affect everyone and my only general advice really would be to clear any debts if you can

bobbbb

I for one say good luck to them.
They are standing up for unfair cutbacks and treatment.
I didnt think they had it in them tbh, but they have proved me wrong (if they actually do something now).

silverharp

Personally I hope the credit markets turn off the taps , the sooner the cheques stop clearing the sooner reality will set in. I feel like I am living in some la la land, where the the titanic is going down and people are complaining that diner is late.

turgon

EF wrote: »

If this was true well then the civil and public servants would all be looking forward to the implementation of the agreed Towards 2016 pay increases. The pension levy is now in force since March 1st also and it will not be reversed so I think FF are facing up to the unions, despite over 100k marching the streets a few weeks back.

I disagree. The abandonment of Towards 1916 was a small snub.

If the parties had real balls the civil service would be culled of all the **** ass jobs in it.

ParkRunner

turgon wrote: »

I disagree. The abandonment of Towards 1916 was a small snub.

If the parties had real balls the civil service would be culled of all the **** ass jobs in it.

So what are the government doing now to accede to the wishes of the unions? Keeping in mind that culling of thousands of jobs will require redundancy payments and social welfare support.

Hillel

EF wrote: »

If this was true well then the civil and public servants would all be looking forward to the implementation of the agreed Towards 2016 pay increases. The pension levy is now in force since March 1st also and it will not be reversed so I think FF are facing up to the unions, despite over 100k marching the streets a few weeks back. The mini budget will be coming in about the time of the planned strike so I think it is fair to say the government are ploughing ahead regardless, not that Im a FF supporter. The pain is going to affect everyone and my only general advice really would be to clear any debts if you can

Yet another public servant who has no concept of what life is like outside the cosseted state sector. Let’s stop this pretence of “we’re all in it together”. The vast majority of public sector employees, and TD’s who share a vested interest, appear to have no intention of sharing the load. (Prove me wrong, let your voices be heard, loudly and clearly.)

Let me spell it out in simple terms for those at the back of the class:
The private sector is facing large scale redundancies. Those of us fortunate to be still at work, and yes, we are extremely fortunate; are facing substantial direct pay cuts in addition to substantial tax increases. Even worse, most of are facing an uncertain retirement due to the decimation, (sorry, no big words; really, really big drop) in our pension funds.

Some of this pain, is genuinely outside the influence of the government, nobody could reasonably have predicted it. However, some of the problem applies to Ireland, only. A deeply unjust and unnecessary benchmarking process bumped up public sector pay to levels that the country cannot afford. Even worse, the promised changes to deliver greater levels of service were not implemented. Now, private sector workers, already bearing the brunt of the recession, are being asked to pay more tax to fund a bloated and substantially self-serving public sector. TD’s are acquiescing, (sorry, another big word, quietly supporting), because they don’t want further cuts to their greatly inflated pay and conditions.

Notice, that I haven’t used the words “Public Servants”, here. The public sector in Ireland does not have an ethic of “public service” in any meaningful sense. This is not surprising. Successive governments have led from the front in terms of salaries, unvouched expenses, Paddy’s day jaunts, helicopter rides, you name it, their noses were in the trough. And, its not just FF, others are at it too. Just one example … http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59273706&postcount=1

Well, guys, I’ve news for you. There is real anger amongst private sector workers. Many are not prepared to be taxed to new highs to allow public sector workers, including politicians and teachers, keep avoiding their share of the cutbacks. This will not go away and I sincerely hope that Brian Cowen and others are getting ready to step up to the mark. If they don’t, annihilation, (sorry again, very big losses), in the local elections will be the least of their concerns. Take on the vested interests, public servants, consultants, TD’s, ministers of state, whatever. Set an example that shows that politicians truly have the good of the country at heart, rather than the good of their own pockets.

Won’t support him, don’t care? Well you should. We are looking at the breakdown of communities and society. It won’t be long before politicians and state employees are regarded as pariahs (sorry, outcasts) in society, state backed pensions won’t provide protection against this. It’s only a small step from there to anarchy (sorry, wide scale civil unrest, because the government is not recognised as being legitimate). Think it can’t happen? Think again, many people are becoming truly desperate. Cutting social welfare, rather than govern pay costs, will fuel that desperation further. Desperate people do desperate things!

So come on guys, stop hiding behind fairness, class sizes, whatever, and step up there with the rest of us. And, tell your union bosses, that you want fairness for every worker and family in the country. And Brian, if Public Sector Unions won’t play ball, take them on! Let’s get all the pain out of the way, now! If necessary, change legislation to allow all “public servants”, be fired. If the deputies won’t support government cutbacks, so be it. Name and shame them, one by one: go to the country and let the electorate give their verdict on their behaviour. Better that than be remembered as a craven coward, unwilling to stand up to self-serving deputies and Public Sector, Bullyboy, Unions.

Godge

turgon wrote: »

I disagree. The abandonment of Towards 1916 was a small snub.

If the parties had real balls the civil service would be culled of all the **** ass jobs in it.

If the Government had real balls it would let its property developer friends go to the wall.

Hillel

Godge wrote: »

If the Government had real balls it would let its property developer friends go to the wall.

If teachers were really concerned about students they would agree to pay cuts to pre-benchmarking levels. No cutbacks would then be necessary.

harsea8

silverharp wrote: »

Personally I hope the credit markets turn off the taps , the sooner the cheques stop clearing the sooner reality will set in. I feel like I am living in some la la land, where the the titanic is going down and people are complaining that diner is late.

sounds harsh, but I am inclined to agree

bobbbb wrote: »

I for one say good luck to them.
They are standing up for unfair cutbacks and treatment.
I didnt think they had it in them tbh, but they have proved me wrong (if they actually do something now).

Under normal circumstances, I'd agree. However, with the country in as much sh** as it is and with 1000s of people losing their jobs/livelihoods/homes etc..every week, it is futile to be moaning about "unfair cutbacks". You'd be hard pushed to find many people in this country who haven't had to take some kind of "unfair cutback" to their disposable income

NatDonegal

Could teachers vote to strike on saturdays to avoid disruption to students?

I think industrial action is bad judgement and disrespectful.. considering the number of jobs lost in the past few months.

E.T.

Just out of interest - how many of the people bitching about teachers on these boards are aware of ALL the education cuts that have been made over the last few months? I voted yes last week, not because I want to get out of paying the pension levy, but because I think we need to send the message to the government that we've had enough.

By jumping on the 'let's bash teachers' bandwagon you're facilitating these cuts, and any more that the government are going to throw in. Have a look below, hopefully it might open some of your eyes:

Education cuts (since October 08)

Increase class sizes in primary schools
Increase school transport charges
Axe English language teachers
Reduce funding to special needs children
Slash Traveller education funding
Cut teacher numbers by at least 1,000
Eliminate the free book scheme
Stop books for school libraries
Halt the Education for Persons with Special Needs Act
Abandon funding for school computers
Cut funding for primary school building by 5%
Cut the number of classes for children with Mild General Learning Disorder.

otwb

Trotter wrote: »

Alright, well I can't dictate back what was discussed at the last meeting I was at but here's my take on it. We'll pay the money, we'll take the pain. They levy is just a shady way to cut 7% off people, many of whom can't afford it. Are you saying its right to take 7% off a public service cleaner on 19k and not adjust the tax allowances given to people on 100k + who are paying into their own pensions?

......

Its fairness.. why should the cleaner pay 7% when ultimately their pensions won't go above that of the state pension anyway!? I keep saying that the design of this levy is all wrong.. not the amount that it causes me personally to pay out.

Trotter wrote: »

Yes but the levy in its current form takes 7% off the lowest paid workers. Thats not fair. It cant be considered fair. I think you'd agree with that. Therefore, the ICTU's fight to have the levy as it stands abolished and replaced with something fairer, is justified.

Nite now!

Eh, Cleaner on 19k will have deduction of 3% on first 15k (€450) and 6% on next 4k (€240)- coming out at less than €690 (or 3.6%) for the year. You need to be earning over 40k to be deducted 7%.

Your union is feeding you crap to get their way.

E.T.

You've got your facts wrong: The levy is on top of what we already pay - someone on over €40k a year is probably paying something like 14%.

otwb

My facts are correct and refer to the pension levy.

You are talking about adding the above to what we currently pay - either 6 or 6.5% (can't remember which towards widows & orphans etc).

This is a good deal. If you don't want to take it then why not opt out of a government backed pension and find yourself a private sector pension that will provide 1.5x lump sum, 1/80th salary per years service based on your final salary etc etc for the same cost as the pension levy + current contributions.

Trotter

otwb wrote: »

Your union is feeding you crap to get their way.

Why should a person who doesn't earn enough to have a pension higher than that of the state pension pay a levy when we're all entitled to the state pension regardless?

Fair?

E.T.

I don't see where I said anything about it not being a good deal. It's very ignorant to put words in someone else's mouth. I'm referring to the levy on top of what we already pay because a lot of people seem to think we get our pensions without paying and that the levy is the first time we've ever paid anything - along with the assumption that we get our full pension as well as a full standard pension!

NatDonegal

E.T. wrote: »

By jumping on the 'let's bash teachers' bandwagon you're facilitating these cuts, and any more that the government are going to throw in. Have a look below, hopefully it might open some of your eyes:

And you can't make your point by striking on a saturday?

I don't know about you, but i graduated school 8 years ago without that funding and i still managed to do well. In fact, ASTI strikes were in action that year... 2 - 3 days a week they robbed us of education. Was that for our benefit?

E.T.

We already tried holding a protest on a Saturday. 60,000+ teachers and parents walked in Dublin, tens of thousands in Cork, Galway etc etc last Autumn. No one took any notice, and the government have made more cuts since then.

ixoy

E.T. wrote: »

I'm referring to the levy on top of what we already pay because a lot of people seem to think we get our pensions without paying and that the levy is the first time we've ever paid anything - along with the assumption that we get our full pension as well as a full standard pension!

True - people are unaware of that, especially how it works with relation to the state pension. They may also be unaware of how it works for pre '95 employees (which seems a better deal to me) They might also though be unaware of the lump sum on retirement which is quite a nice deal too!

To be quite honest, I wished they'd just given a straight out pay cut now so we wouldn't have to read about scenarios like the cleaner above - it'd be more honest and cut out that arguement and still be effectively the same end result (in fact it'd even save more money).

NatDonegal

E.T. wrote: »

Education cuts (since October 08)

Increase class sizes in primary schools
Increase school transport charges
Axe English language teachers
Reduce funding to special needs children
Slash Traveller education funding
Cut teacher numbers by at least 1,000
Eliminate the free book scheme
Stop books for school libraries
Halt the Education for Persons with Special Needs Act
Abandon funding for school computers
Cut funding for primary school building by 5%
Cut the number of classes for children with Mild General Learning Disorder.

Yes it is sad that cuts have to be made... but we have to cut the cloth to our means. Do you not know that there has been a huge deterioration in public finance. Maybe we would not need to make these cuts if teacher salaries were cut instead.

How did we ever manage without this funding in the first place??

E.T.

NatDonegal wrote: »

Yes it is sad that cuts have to be made... but we have to cut the cloth to our means. Do you not know that there has been a huge deterioration in public finance. Maybe we would not need to make these cuts if teacher salaries were cut instead.

How did we ever manage without this funding in the first place??

Or maybe we wouldn't need to make them if the number of junior ministers in education was cut, if the teaching council was abolished (it doesn't seem to do anything except take money, not register qualified teachers, register unqualified teachers), if ministers weren't allowed use helicopters as public transport etc etc.