Teachers vote for industrial action

NatDonegal

E.T. wrote: »

Or maybe we wouldn't need to make them if the number of junior ministers in education was cut, if the teaching council was abolished (it doesn't seem to do anything except take money, not register qualified teachers, register unqualified teachers), if ministers weren't allowed use helicopters as public transport etc etc.

Yes i agree that sort of unnecessary spending should be cut also. But industrial action will hurt students more than the cuts themselves.

E.T.

I completely see your point, but have you any other suggestion on how to get the government to listen? If 100,000+ (between all the education marches) people taking to the streets in protest gets completely ignored, what on earth can we do?

NatDonegal

Increase class sizes in primary schools
Increase school transport charges
Axe English language teachers
Reduce funding to special needs children
Slash Traveller education funding
Cut teacher numbers by at least 1,000
Eliminate the free book scheme
Stop books for school libraries
Halt the Education for Persons with Special Needs Act
Abandon funding for school computers
Cut funding for primary school building by 5%
Cut the number of classes for children with Mild General Learning Disorder.

Personally, the only cuts i believe to have a real negative impact are those for funding to special needs... it's unfortunate i know, but they make up a small percentage of students.

Class sizes, transports costs, free books, computers etc... so what... most of the employed population today managed without them. Just be professional and let's get on with it.

rainbowtrout

NatDonegal wrote: »

And you can't make your point by striking on a saturday?

Definition of a strike:


A work stoppage undertaken in support of a bargaining position or in protest of some aspect of a previous agreement or proposed agreement between labor and management


I and any other teachers I know don't work on a saturday so I can't see why we would strike on a saturday

If it was banking staff that were on strike would you suggest they strike on a saturday too?

NatDonegal

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Definition of a strike:


A work stoppage undertaken in support of a bargaining position or in protest of some aspect of a previous agreement or proposed agreement between labor and management


I and any other teachers I know don't work on a saturday so I can't see why we would strike on a saturday

If it was banking staff that were on strike would you suggest they strike on a saturday too?

If banking staff were to strike i would suggest they get fired. But that is not what this thread is about.

My point is the strike is disrespectful to students and not in their best interests.

ixoy

E.T. wrote: »

I completely see your point, but have you any other suggestion on how to get the government to listen? If 100,000+ (between all the education marches) people taking to the streets in protest gets completely ignored, what on earth can we do?

Have you other suggestions on how to plug the gap in the finances? You could throw all the junior ministers onto Craggy Island and pay them nothing and it wouldn't come close to closing the gap, nor would - I imagine - axing a few councils. And please no responses out of the ICTU manifesto

From reading the papers, by the way, all the points many people have made quite eloquently here are still not coming across - especially as being in the interest of the children.

E.T.

NatDonegal wrote: »

Personally, the only cuts i believe to have a real negative impact are those for funding to special needs... it's unfortunate i know, but they make up a small percentage of students.

Class sizes, transports costs, free books, computers etc... so what... most of the employed population today managed without them. Just be professional and let's get on with it.

That's exactly the government's attitude. Yes, children with special needs are a "small percentage of students", but they're the students who need the most time and help from us. The majority of children with special needs have only been attending mainstream schools in recent times. Before now they would have been pupils in special schools with a very very small pupil-teacher ratio, and much higher running costs. Your attitude is just disgusting. Anyone who has any contact with children with special needs would be appalled by you.

Just to clear things up too - children who are defined as having special needs may only be a small percentage, but there are a hell of a lot of kids who have special educational needs, but won't get much help for it, and will struggle hugely in a large class. These children are NOT included under the special needs category. If a child has a low IQ, then it's very doubtful they'll be entitled to resource hours (hours that must be given to the child), the school will be told to "try" to fit them in somewhere for learning support. The government's view on this is - giving them extra hours won't raise their IQ so why waste the money. Sickening. And people like you are helping them with your ignorance, I can only hope that people with your attitude are an ignorant minority.

NatDonegal

I do have a close relative with special needs. Funding is not being cut entirely, there are resources still available. Family also play a substantial part in his education, in fact that is the most important issue, as we know what works best for him. I would like to think funding could made available, through wage cuts but teachers don't seem to warm to that idea. I do not however agree with the attitude to abandon students to squabble over cuts to free book schemes.

K-9

otwb wrote: »

Eh, Cleaner on 19k will have deduction of 3% on first 15k (€450) and 6% on next 4k (€240)- coming out at less than €690 (or 3.6%) for the year. You need to be earning over 40k to be deducted 7%.

Your union is feeding you crap to get their way.

When you take the tax relief on it, it's under 3%.

The low paid Civil Servants marching seem to have fallen for this one too.

They reckoned they were losing €40-60 a week.

Sorry, if you are losing that much, you are on €50/60k and therefore aren't low paid.

I wish people would actually research for themselves what they are losing and not spout Union rubbish who don't care about the low paid. If they did they'd have dropped benchmarking and given it to the actual low paid instead.

E.T.

NatDonegal:
Your relative is very lucky that they are not being affected, but they are in a tiny minority. The resources available are few and far between and we (parents and teachers) have to jump through hoops to even get the basic ones. The number of SNA's in our school will be halved at least this year - one was already responsible for 2 children with huge physical and toileting needs, we don't know what'll happen this year. If all teachers do take a wage cut, do you for a minute believe that one single cent will be put back into education? I definitely don't.

rainbowtrout

NatDonegal wrote: »

Class sizes, transports costs, free books, computers etc... so what... most of the employed population today managed without them. Just be professional and let's get on with it.

Do you have any sense of reality about the knock on effect of the cuts?

Eg. class sizes, an increase in pupil teacher ratio means less teachers in a school, so classes overall have to get bigger. In my school there are 4 math classes in fifth year, next year there will be three. Two of the ordinary level classes with about 15 in each will be one class of 30. I can already hear your argument of ... it was like that in my day and i turned out alright. Students today are different, they have shorter attention spans due to having so much other distractions around them (mainly technology based). In a smaller class they can have lots of attention and help. Not so in a bigger class.


More parents are commuting today than they were 10 years ago, school transport is essential to them, but it's going to cost more this septemeber.

In my school students can rent their books for the year for about €60. A full set of books will cost a parent in the region of €300. And that's only for one child. I pity the parents who have more than one child in school.


People didn't go into jobs that required computers 10 years ago, not on a wide scale. Most employees now are expected to have basic computer skills. many students learn these skills at school....

NatDonegal

E.T. i'm sure savings found in the education sector would be spent in the education sector. And let me emphasize that i am NOT anti-special needs funding. I'm sorry that it put it across that way. My point is the majority of students will find the strike more of a block to their education than these cuts.

E.T.

NatDonegal that's fine. It's good to hear your point explained more fully. The thing is, with the government having proved time and time again that education is not one of their priorities, I really don't believe that any money we (teachers) give up would be put back into this area. I just don't believe it for a second.

segaBOY

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where even though we are facing financial ruin at debt levels of over 9.5% of our GDP and unemployment soaring to 10.4% and beyond, yet still, an excess of 100,000 people with secure well paid jobs march and are prepared to strike over a pay cut of less than 9% of their wage. (even less after tax).

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where unions will blindly follow ICTU boss David Begg who earns in excess of €136,000 less expenses, paid with your subscriptions into calls for industrial action over fairness, even though, his salary is a long way from fair. (Source http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/union-chiefs-on-big-wages-unite-against-pay-cuts-1613952.html)

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where the public service will blame the Government yet fail to provide one decent bit of proposed policy that should be implemented to get us out of this mess. Decent being the operative word here, policy that proposes telling "tax tourists" to stay away from our shores only leads to less money being spent here. Fairness is the point of that one, otherwise known as begrudgery to those who earn more.

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where amazing things happen, including time travel, where people are content on finding a time machine that can land us back in the 80s. For further information on this time machine visit www.ictu.ie

Hillel

segaBOY wrote: »

Welcome to a land called Ireland, where even though we are facing financial ruin at debt levels of over 9.5% of our GDP and unemployment soaring to 10.4% and beyond, yet still, an excess of 100,000 people with secure well paid jobs march and are prepared to strike over a pay cut of less than 9% of their wage. (even less after tax).

I have always tried to take a balanced approach and understand everyone's point of view. However, the self-serving cant from teachers and other public sector workers here on boards quite literally turns my stomach. What a selfish, arrogant, lot many, not all, of them are. If their position is indicative of the general public service, then god help us all!

I don't believe it is. I know many teachers who are sickened by the stance being taken by their colleagues. They are literally afraid to state this openly as they would be victimised by their colleagues. (Those same colleagues who teach our children.) There is a compelling case for reform within the educational system. Those teachers that are contributing, and truly have their pupils interests at heart, need to be encouraged and supported. Those that aren't need to be ruthlessly weeded out.

I'm quitting boards, now. I have no further interest in this meaningless debate. I am also saddened that I will never again have the same respect for the teacher population that I had until the current crisis. It is clear that, for far too many, personal interests that precedence over the needs of the children in their care and the country as a whole. What a truly depressing vista.

Good Bye.

Alessandra

Hillel wrote: »

I know many teachers who are sickened by the stance being taken by their colleagues. They are literally afraid to state this openly as they would be victimised by their colleagues. (Those same colleagues who teach our children.)

Hang on a second. Their is no mutiny between teachers. I know many of my colleagues who were adamantly voting "NO" until they read the ballot. There was no option under the circumstances but to vote yes. Get this straight, it is not simply about the pension levy but about the more drastic implications of the the education cutbacks on the rights and needs of our children to a decent education.
Cowen will try to promote our so called knowledge economy as our chance to improve the situation. Let me tell you, once the full force of cutbacks are implemented our children will suffer the consequences academically.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

Hang on a second. Their is no mutiny between teachers. I know many of my colleagues who were adamantly voting "NO" until they read the ballot. There was no option under the circumstances but to vote yes. Get this straight, it is not simply about the pension levy but about the more drastic implications of the the education cutbacks on the rights and needs of our children to a decent education.
Cowen will try to promote our so called knowledge economy as our chance to improve the situation. Let me tell you, once the full force of cutbacks are implemented our children will suffer the consequences academically.

Perhaps a two seperate ballots would solve the problem?

1. Should we accept the pension levy, Y/N

2. Should we accept budget cutbacks besides those that effect our wages? Y/N

Alessandra

segaBOY wrote: »

Perhaps a two seperate ballots would solve the problem?

1. Should we accept the pension levy, Y/N

2. Should we accept budget cutbacks besides those that effect our wages? Y/N

No I don't agree. I think the industrial action is needed to show the large scale disatisfaction with the cutbacks including the pension levy. Two separate ballots would be confusing and a waste to be honest.
Teachers want to send the government a message of the general dissatisaction in the ranks.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

No I don't agree. I think the industrial action is needed to show the large scale disatisfaction with the cutbacks including the pension levy. Two separate ballots would be confusing and a waste to be honest.
Teachers want to send the government a message of the general dissatisaction in the ranks.

Eh, confusing? I thought ye guys all had degrees and H Dips and so forth, give me a break a junior cert pass english student could navigate two separate ballots.

You seem to find it hard to separate your own wages from the welfare of your students, I for one agree with the pension levy but not with education cutbacks, by mixing the two in together you are making your case weaker if anything by alienating the public who agree (and there are quite a few) with the pension levy.

nesf

Alessandra wrote: »

No I don't agree. I think the industrial action is needed to show the large scale disatisfaction with the cutbacks including the pension levy. Two separate ballots would be confusing and a waste to be honest.
Teachers want to send the government a message of the general dissatisaction in the ranks.

You are aware the deficit for just this year in the Budget is approximately one third of total budget spending yeah?

Lemming

Alessandra wrote: »

No I don't agree. I think the industrial action is needed to show the large scale disatisfaction with the cutbacks including the pension levy. Two separate ballots would be confusing and a waste to be honest.

More on this in a second ... But first:

Teachers want to send the government a message of the general dissatisaction in the ranks.

And what message is that? For/Against the pension levy whilst for/against the cutbacks? Which combination is that now? How on gods green earth is "sending a message" using an all-encompassing overly-simplified-to-the-point-of-f*cktarded-stupidity ballot going to send a clear message?

So, having two separate ballot questions is confusing, but sending a one-size-fits-all message isn't confusing? Ummmm. Okayyyyyy.

At the moment we have all manner of public service workers clamouring over everything. None of which is being indicated to the government as a clear and concise message. So if you want the government to actually do something, perhaps addressing this fundamental point might be your first order of business? Followed swiftly thereafter by a realisation that whatever you're after is in all likelihood not going to be delivered since there isn't the money for it.

segaBOY

....or they could ballot on different suggestions they want to give to the government to get us out of this mess....no no no, a strike is probably more productive :rolleyes:

K-9

The replies on this page sums it up.

As for job losses, it has been estimated a job loss costs €20,000 to the tax payer between SW and tax losses.

Average PS Pay is €48/49,000.

YEP, we do actually save by cutting PS Jobs.

Alessandra

segaBOY wrote: »

Eh, confusing? I thought ye guys all had degrees and H Dips and so forth, give me a break a junior cert pass english student could navigate two separate ballots.

You seem to find it hard to separate your own wages from the welfare of your students, I for one agree with the pension levy but not with education cutbacks, by mixing the two in together you are making your case weaker if anything by alienating the public who agree (and there are quite a few) with the pension levy.

I'm tired but here is what I think.
Yes of course you agree with pension levy as most people are resentul of the salary of teachers yet have no concept of what the role of teacher incompasses(teacher, mother, father, zookeeper, babysitter, I could go on.)..This is not the issue here though


A pension levy and possible cut in wages is hard to swallow and teachers are annoyed about it. Are we not in a democracy and entitled to voice disatisfaction? The guards are taking steps to show they are not happy(the ad campaign). Why is it that teachers are ripped to shredS for voicing disquiet. Fair enough people in the private sector are losing their jobs, taking paycuts etc. These were some of the same people with lucratiVe positions in the boom earning far and above the salary of a humble teacher. Some may say the public sector is overpaid.. These are people who don't personally know a teacher. People do not enter the sector for the lure of money because it doesn't pay enough for the amount of hassle we put up with on a daily basis.

Don't think public sector people are cushioned from this recession, part-time positions lost, hours being cut. Not to mention many public sector employees have spouses losing jobs.

Two separate ballots would have been a waste of time. Nobody is happy with the pension levy nor the cutbacks. My opinon is that if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys. It's clear our government places little value on the future of children, with those most vulnerable shouldering the results of poor governance.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

I'm tired but here is what I think.
Yes of course you agree with pension levy as most people are resentul of the salary of teachers yet have no concept of what the role of teacher incompasses(teacher, mother, father, zookeeper, babysitter, I could go on.)..This is not the issue here though

Well I'm not resentful of your salary tbh. I think the pension levy should (and does) apply across the board and not just to teachers, my suppot of the pension levy aint nothing to do with teachers, it's to do with the realisation of the money that must be saved in the coming months. I'm not argueing with how tough your job may/may not be just showing that I support the levy, and it's not due to any resentment just a realistic outlook on cutbacks that must be made.

Alessandra wrote: »

A pension levy and possible cut in wages is hard to swallow and teachers are annoyed about it. Are we not in a democracy and entitled to voice disatisfaction? The guards are taking steps to show they are not happy(the ad campaign). Why is it that teachers are ripped to shredS for voicing disquiet. Fair enough people in the private sector are losing their jobs, taking paycuts etc. These were some of the same people with lucratiVe positions in the boom earning far and above the salary of a humble teacher. Some may say the public sector is overpaid.. These are people who don't personally know a teacher. People do not enter the sector for the lure of money because it doesn't pay enough for the amount of hassle we put up with on a daily basis.

Massive job losses and serious paycuts in the private sector are also hard to swallow but they get on with the job at hand, if they don't they lose their job.

I disagree, I have considered a career as a secondary teacher myself and money was a major aspect of it, especially comparing what the starting wage is for a teacher compared to other graduate posts.

Alessandra wrote: »

Don't think public sector people are cushioned from this recession, part-time positions lost, hours being cut. Not to mention many public sector employees have spouses losing jobs.

Sure, but any blow ye may have to take ye make a big song and dance and show every level of unproductive resistance about it, i.e. strikes.

Alessandra wrote: »

Two separate ballots would have been a waste of time. Nobody is happy with the pension levy nor the cutbacks. My opinon is that if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys. It's clear our government places little value on the future of children, with those most vulnerable shouldering the results of poor governance.

So you're basically admitting that it IS about your wages after all, fair enough Best of luck getting public support by clouding the matter at hand with cutbacks affecting our children.

And it wasn't so long ago when I was affected by teachers striking when I was a student, well you did eventually get your €50 an hour for supervision so fair play for milking the system when you could.

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

My opinon is that if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys.

It has been pointed out on this thread that they definitely are not paid peanuts.

Alessandra

segaBOY wrote: »

Well I'm not resentful of your salary tbh. I think the pension levy should (and does) apply across the board and not just to teachers, my suppot of the pension levy aint nothing to do with teachers, it's to do with the realisation of the money that must be saved in the coming months. I'm not argueing with how tough your job may/may not be just showing that I support the levy, and it's not due to any resentment just a realistic outlook on cutbacks that must be made.




Massive job losses and serious paycuts in the private sector are also hard to swallow but they get on with the job at hand, if they don't they lose their job.

I disagree, I have considered a career as a secondary teacher myself and money was a major aspect of it, especially comparing what the starting wage is for a teacher compared to other graduate posts.


Sure, but any blow ye may have to take ye make a big song and dance and show every level of unproductive resistance about it, i.e. strikes.



So you're basically admitting that it IS about your wages after all, fair enough Best of luck getting public support by clouding the matter at hand with cutbacks affecting our children.

And it wasn't so long ago when I was affected by teachers striking when I was a student, well you did eventually get your €50 an hour for supervision so fair play for milking the system when you could.

Typical responses tbh..

If you really wanted to be a teacher, wages wouldn't really come into it. In comparison to "other graduates" yes the money may be better but you have to look at the fact that teaching doesn't suit everyone who graduates college and in order to get decent teachers you have to pay. Consider teachers have a degree AND H.Dip with many having masters.

There is no strike action planned, it is "up to and including strike action". Yes the ballot is about the levy and the cuts. I am not sure but think that many will reluctantly accept the levy but a further proposed income cut would be too much.

Just as the cuts in education spending affect the children, they affect the teacher also. Bigger classes is a decrease in working conditions for teachers. Language support, SNA, Learning support, sport etc will all be cut. These are also vital to any student and vital to ensure the child has the best environment to work in.

Parents have been protesting since these cuts have been made and teachers have given up their time on saturdays to attend the protests. Teaching is a caring profession whether you believe that or not. Most teachers live for the job, rather than to pay the bills. If I didn't like teaching, i'd take a lower paid job in return for less stress. I teach because it's a personally rewarding(not purely economically) profession.


Yes I was in school the time of the strikes over supervision myself but discussion on that resolved issue is nothing to do with the present one.

Alessandra

K-9 wrote: »

It has been pointed out on this thread that they definitely are not paid peanuts.

I never suggested otherwise.

Bearing in mind education costs for 4-5 years, the constant training etc that is part and parcel of the profession, it's an entirely reasonable level of pay for what's involved.
But then again it's hard to explain to many people who have no concept of what a teacher does.

Why were you not tempted by the "high wages" yourself if it's so good?

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

I never suggested otherwise.

Why mention peanuts then?

Alessandra wrote:

Bearing in mind education costs for 4-5 years, the constant training etc that is part and parcel of the profession, it's an entirely reasonable level of pay for what's involved.

You get allowances for these degrees etc. to compensate.

Alessandra wrote:

But then again it's hard to explain to many people who have no concept of what a teacher does.

No concept? What are these things most people have no concept of?

Alessandra wrote:

Why were you not tempted by the "high wages" yourself if it's so good?

Never considered teaching.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

Typical responses tbh..

Lol, ok, I'll take your word for it, obviously get a lot of people disagreeing with you on this one then.

Alessandra wrote: »

If you really wanted to be a teacher, wages wouldn't really come into it. In comparison to "other graduates" yes the money may be better but you have to look at the fact that teaching doesn't suit everyone who graduates college and in order to get decent teachers you have to pay. Consider teachers have a degree AND H.Dip with many having masters.

Interesting, so money had absolutely nothing to do with your choice of career? Everyone has to live on something hun,if I asked you to do your job for free would you still do it cos you love being a teacher so much? Oh wait...you disagree with the pension levy-so obviously money does come into it :rolleyes:

Fair play on the education requirements, a hell of a lot of other people (including myself) have similar levels of education in the general economy.

Alessandra wrote: »

There is no strike action planned, it is "up to and including strike action". Yes the ballot is about the levy and the cuts. I am not sure but think that many will reluctantly accept the levy but a further proposed income cut would be too much.

True, but are you prepared to strike?

Alessandra wrote: »

Just as the cuts in education spending affect the children, they affect the teacher also. Bigger classes is a decrease in working conditions for teachers. Language support, SNA, Learning support, sport etc will all be cut. These are also vital to any student and vital to ensure the child has the best environment to work in.

Parents have been protesting since these cuts have been made and teachers have given up their time on saturdays to attend the protests. Teaching is a caring profession whether you believe that or not. Most teachers live for the job, rather than to pay the bills. If I didn't like teaching, i'd take a lower paid job in return for less stress. I teach because it's a personally rewarding(not purely economically) profession.

Typical response tbh (see past few posts you posted)

Alessandra wrote: »

Yes I was in school the time of the strikes over supervision myself but discussion on that resolved issue is nothing to do with the present one.

Of course it is, whenever the likes of nurses threaten strike their past striking history is always brought up!!