Teachers vote for industrial action

Alessandra

K-9 wrote: »

Why mention peanuts then?



You get allowances for these degrees etc. to compensate.



No concept? What are these things most people have no concept of?



Never considered teaching.

A cut in wages wouldn't attract people of the same calibre.

The job of a teacher is not easy but this has been repeated ad nauseum on boards and I am not getting into it.

I don't think there is much left to discuss with you.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

I never suggested otherwise.

Bearing in mind education costs for 4-5 years, the constant training etc that is part and parcel of the profession, it's an entirely reasonable level of pay for what's involved.
But then again it's hard to explain to many people who have no concept of what a teacher does.

Why were you not tempted by the "high wages" yourself if it's so good?

Most of the country where students at one time or another, if anything they got a flavour for what a teacher does.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

I don't think there is much left to discuss with you.

I am losing an arguement and cannot give K-9 detention, oh dear, run away

Alessandra

segaBOY wrote: »

Lol, ok, I'll take your word for it, obviously get a lot of people disagreeing with you on this one then.



Interesting, so money had absolutely nothing to do with your choice of career? Everyone has to live on something hun,(Don't patronise me)if I asked you to do your job for free would you still do it cos you love being a teacher so much? Oh wait...you disagree with the pension levy-so obviously money does come into it :rolleyes:

Fair play on the education requirements, a hell of a lot of other people (including myself) have similar levels of education in the general economy.




True, but are you prepared to strike?



!!

Maybe you do, well done.

I am not striking as I am not in a union, I am a sub. I will not be breaking the picket line however.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

Maybe you do, well done.

I am not striking as I am not in a union, I am a sub. I will not be breaking the picket line however.

So you won't turn up for work then? Some worker you are

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

A cut in wages wouldn't attract people of the same calibre.

But I thought money wasn't a major issue. Look, wages are being cut, job losses everywhere. Architects, Accountants etc. losing jobs.

Alessandra wrote:

The job of a teacher is not easy but this has been repeated ad nauseum on boards and I am not getting into it.

I didn't say it was. Mind answering the question and enlighten most people?

Alessandra wrote:

I don't think there is much left to discuss with you.

Probably not seeing as you didn't answer my question.

NatDonegal

Alessandra wrote: »

I never suggested otherwise.

Bearing in mind education costs for 4-5 years, the constant training etc that is part and parcel of the profession, it's an entirely reasonable level of pay for what's involved.
But then again it's hard to explain to many people who have no concept of what a teacher does.

Quite a lot of other people have 4 years of college behind them for their degrees, including myself, and after working 3 years after graduating i am not paid what the teacher's base salary is. I still consider my wage to be very good. BTW constant training is a requirement in most jobs... weak argument.

Plus, teachers work less hours in a week and far far less days in a year. Permanent teachers also enjoy job security. Factor in a fantastic guaranteed pension that should cost you 25 - 30% of your salary (never mind your 7% levy). A lot of workers have had their pension funds fall apart or drop significantly. Alessandra, face it you are way overpaid. Cut teacher salary... free up some money to fund special needs. Make leaving certificate marking compulsory for secondary school teachers... free up some more... as for the other cuts... so what...

The strike "for the good of the students" is crap. You are doing them more harm. I'm sure it will be pointless... we can't pay for what we can't afford..

Darlie

9 pages!!!
Nearly found an original thought or opinion in there somewhere. Turned out to be some form of smilie.

littlebsci

Like at least one other poster in this thread so far, I was in Leaving Cert year when our teachers went on strike in 2001. It didn’t do me or any of the students in my year who were bothered to do some work any harm. At that stage of your education you’re either going to put the effort in or not so I feel the argument that striking is going to harm current students is a bit extreme. Not that it has even been decided that teachers will strike.

Given the repetitive nature of this thread I only want to add one more point; it’s after 11pm and I’ve just finished my work for the evening having started at 7.30pm. I will do this two more nights this week and work through every free class I have between 9 and 4 all week. The way I see it, that brings my weekly working hours to over 35 which is by no means very far off the average persons weekly hours. And as such I feel quite aggrieved about the general “teachers work less hours in a week” statement. If I did then perhaps I might agree that I am “way overpaid” but no thanks I work just as many hours as my non-teaching friends and earn roughly the same as them so don’t tell me that my hours of work aren’t worth the same as theirs.

NatDonegal

Aye i know... Got to try to get through to these people... but the point just doesn't seem to sink in... :pac:

Hopefully they won't get paid for the days they strike.

Alessandra

NatDonegal wrote: »

Quite a lot of other people have 4 years of college behind them for their degrees, including myself, and after working 3 years after graduating i am not paid what the teacher's base salary is. I still consider my wage to be very good. BTW constant training is a requirement in most jobs... weak argument.

Plus, teachers work less hours in a week and far far less days in a year. Permanent teachers also enjoy job security. Factor in a fantastic guaranteed pension that should cost you 25 - 30% of your salary (never mind your 7% levy). A lot of workers have had their pension funds fall apart or drop significantly. Alessandra, face it you are way overpaid. Cut teacher salary... free up some money to fund special needs. Make leaving certificate marking compulsory for secondary school teachers... free up some more... as for the other cuts... so what...
The strike "for the good of the students" is crap. You are doing them more harm. I'm sure it will be pointless... we can't pay for what we can't afford..

Sorry if you are not making the money that teacher earns but the rates of pay have been negotiated and agreed upon for each member of the public sector. Any cuts to pay have got to be thrashed out and cannot be just deducted without consultation of the representatives. There remains an awful lot of uncertainty over how much the government will be deducting and from where.. Surely you can understand peoples dismay at facing a cut but not knowing how much etc and this is due to take effect soon I believe.
The lack of communication between the Government and the public sector in this regard is frustrating. Were it not the the governments mishandling of the public finances for the last 10 years we would not be facing this situation. How and ever I realise everyone must pitch in and contribute to get the economy back on track, that is what people believe. More consultation on the implications is what is necessary.



I am laughing at your idea that teachers should do the corrections for free, goes to show that ignorance really is bliss!

Darlie

Nat, striking workers won't be paid. The government would secretly love a strike. One way of cutting the costs!!

K-9

NatDonegal wrote: »

Quite a lot of other people have 4 years of college behind them for their degrees, including myself, and after working 3 years after graduating i am not paid what the teacher's base salary is. I still consider my wage to be very good. BTW constant training is a requirement in most jobs... weak argument.

Good point.

NatDonegal wrote:

Cut teacher salary... free up some money to fund special needs. Make leaving certificate marking compulsory for secondary school teachers... free up some more... as for the other cuts... so what...

The strike "for the good of the students" is crap. You are doing them more harm. I'm sure it will be pointless... we can't pay for what we can't afford..

Unfortunately like many things, the time to do that was during the boom. I accept loads of SNA's were hired and they made huge improvements on a dire service for Special needs students, but they could have done more.We could pick and choose during the bubble/boom, now there is little room.

Fair enough, we keep the special needs funding, were do we cut?
I'd love to get feedback from teachers on this particularly as they have experience of the area.

Benchmarking was such a waste to me. They gave it to everybody instead of concentrating on the real low paid. Unions looking after middle, not lower class workers.

littlebsci wrote: »

Like at least one other poster in this thread so far, I was in Leaving Cert year when our teachers went on strike in 2001. It didn’t do me or any of the students in my year who were bothered to do some work any harm. At that stage of your education you’re either going to put the effort in or not so I feel the argument that striking is going to harm current students is a bit extreme. Not that it has even been decided that teachers will strike.
Given the repetitive nature of this thread I only want to add one more point; it’s after 11pm and I’ve just finished my work for the evening having started at 7.30pm. I will do this two more nights this week and work through every free class I have between 9 and 4 all week. The way I see it, that brings my weekly working hours to over 35 which is by no means very far off the average persons weekly hours. And as such I feel quite aggrieved about the general “teachers work less hours in a week” statement. If I did then perhaps I might agree that I am “way overpaid” but no thanks I work just as many hours as my non-teaching friends and earn roughly the same as them so don’t tell me that my hours of work aren’t worth the same as theirs.

You do realise if you take that argument to an extreme, we don't need teachers at all? I take your point though.

littlebsci

K-9 wrote: »

You do realise if you take that argument to an extreme, we don't need teachers at all?

Fully understand what you mean. I was referring only to the damage some people have been suggesting will be done by one day of striking. I do want to have a job when the country gets back on track afterall! :rolleyes: .....Fingers crossed!!

ParkRunner

Darlie wrote: »

Nat, striking workers won't be paid. The government would secretly love a strike. One way of cutting the costs!!

It is quite perverse but you are totally right. If anyone thinks the unions are running this country I would love to see an example from the last 4 months of how the unions have influenced any government decision. A week long strike, apart from essential services would probably go a long way to sort out this year's deficit! No social welfare entitlement and no entitlement to pay.

Whereas with the threat of pay cuts, job cuts, increased levies, increased taxes hanging over the public sector, the private sector will suffer equally as badly with the sudden decline in spending on goods and services apart from the absolute necessities. I have seen evidence of this myself, from my own observations. The parts is definitely over.

K-9

EF wrote: »

It is quite perverse but you are totally right. If anyone thinks the unions are running this country I would love to see an example from the last 4 months of how the unions have influenced any government decision.

I think you'll find a lot of people have no problem with the Govts. approach in the last 4 months. They involved the Unions in the tough decisions, the Unions threw a tantrum. Tough. If we can't reach decisions through consensus, Govts. act. It may not be popular and get union approval but that's what Govts. are there for.

We only wish instead of caving into Union demands for the last 7/8 years, they had led then.

Look, people accuse FF of being populist and they are right.

They now have to act and they will suffer in the elections. Politicians get flack, but in times like this they have to put the country first and act, despite the criticism.

NatDonegal

littlebsci wrote: »

Like at least one other poster in this thread so far, I was in Leaving Cert year when our teachers went on strike in 2001. It didn’t do me or any of the students in my year who were bothered to do some work any harm. At that stage of your education you’re either going to put the effort in or not so I feel the argument that striking is going to harm current students is a bit extreme. Not that it has even been decided that teachers will strike.

Given the repetitive nature of this thread I only want to add one more point; it’s after 11pm and I’ve just finished my work for the evening having started at 7.30pm. I will do this two more nights this week and work through every free class I have between 9 and 4 all week. The way I see it, that brings my weekly working hours to over 35 which is by no means very far off the average persons weekly hours. And as such I feel quite aggrieved about the general “teachers work less hours in a week” statement. If I did then perhaps I might agree that I am “way overpaid” but no thanks I work just as many hours as my non-teaching friends and earn roughly the same as them so don’t tell me that my hours of work aren’t worth the same as theirs.

What if a student has difficulty with something.. needs it explained? I remember teaching myself math when teachers were striking 2 - 3 days a week... i needed a good grade to gain entry to my chosen course.

I accept you work same hours during the week, i retract my statment. But still... all those holidays... :rolleyes:

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

Sorry if you are not making the money that teacher earns but the rates of pay have been negotiated and agreed upon for each member of the public sector. Any cuts to pay have got to be thrashed out and cannot be just deducted without consultation of the representatives.

Completely wrong, this isn't a bubble economy anymore. Everybody made mistakes, Govt., Unions, Employers, Private Sector workers not in Unions. We all suffer as we all gained.

Alessandra wrote:

There remains an awful lot of uncertainty over how much the government will be deducting and from where.. Surely you can understand peoples dismay at facing a cut but not knowing how much etc and this is due to take effect soon I believe.

There is, through Unions saying low paid workers lose €40/60 a week. They don't, unless 50/60k is low paid. The figures are widely available, please read up and do the Maths, not accept what Unions tell you.

Alessandra wrote:

The lack of communication between the Government and the public sector in this regard is frustrating. Were it not the the governments mishandling of the public finances for the last 10 years we would not be facing this situation. How and ever I realise everyone must pitch in and contribute to get the economy back on track, that is what people believe. More consultation on the implications is what is necessary.

To a point there is lack of communication. The pension timebomb wasn't explained during the boom/bubble. Then again Unions didn't want to know.

Govt. mishandled the finances, Unions knew how to spend those mishandled finances.

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

To a point there is lack of communication. The pension timebomb wasn't explained during the boom/bubble. Then again Unions didn't want to know.

Govt. mishandled the finances, Unions knew how to spend those mishandled finances.

We would have had no boom and property timebomb had the banks been more prudent so at this stage we can all be fighting on the way down but nothing will be achieved. I await with great interest tomorrows annoucement of mini budget day to see how long it is until everyone takes the next hit.

segaBOY

Alessandra wrote: »

Sorry if you are not making the money that teacher earns but the rates of pay have been negotiated and agreed upon for each member of the public sector. Any cuts to pay have got to be thrashed out and cannot be just deducted without consultation of the representatives. There remains an awful lot of uncertainty over how much the government will be deducting and from where.. Surely you can understand peoples dismay at facing a cut but not knowing how much etc and this is due to take effect soon I believe.
The lack of communication between the Government and the public sector in this regard is frustrating. Were it not the the governments mishandling of the public finances for the last 10 years we would not be facing this situation. How and ever I realise everyone must pitch in and contribute to get the economy back on track, that is what people believe. More consultation on the implications is what is necessary.



I am laughing at your idea that teachers should do the corrections for free, goes to show that ignorance really is bliss!

Your arrogancy amazes me, if you where in the private sector you can be guaranteed that not only would you be told to correct papers for free you would have been given a pay cut long ago and told to take a hike if you acted in the way teachers are threatening to act now.

If you can't realise that we are in seriously dire straights now and can't afford to keep everything in the public service the same as it was within boom times you are just plain selfish. The threat is real, there was talks of the IMF stepping in to take control of our economy not so long ago.

Instead of dodging my points as you usually do Alessandra can I ask you what do you think would happen if the IMF stepped in?

Here's a hint:http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/EconDebacle_Argentina.html

I can tell you now that it would not be pretty and you would have an awful lot more to worry about than a pension levy or a few part timers losing their jobs.

We all are in this together and we all need to act together, instead of bickering with each other we all need to do our duty.

Put up or shut up.

Rant over.

K-9

EF wrote: »

We would have had no boom and property timebomb had the banks been more prudent so at this stage we can all be fighting on the way down but nothing will be achieved. I await with great interest tomorrows annoucement of mini budget day to see how long it is until everyone takes the next hit.

Look, I Think most people don't care anymore. We want solutions, not blame. We know who is to blame and they will pay.

When people all around your company and job are being let go, you want solutions, not the blame game.

segaBOY

+1 that's my attitude at this stage too

givyjoe81

Fredser wrote: »

I am a teacher. Listen carefully to what I am about to say regarding the two positives you mentioned above. Are you sure you and all the other ill-informed are listening. Oi, you at the back listen up or you will find yourself on detention......

SECURITY - NONE. Good chance of me having no job this September. See that's not very secure is it. Understand?

HOLIDAYS - UNPAID. I'd rather be working and earning money during the holidays. See?


Maybe some research in future before composing more embarrassing drivel.

Oh really, so could it be safely said that you dont have a permanent position? Which is why you dont get paid when YOUR NOT WORKING?? I dont know for sure, but is my understanding that teacher who HAVE secured a permanent position DO have job security and ARE paid for holidays, i.e the monster summer break that teachers get. My gosh what a hard life( im sure you work hard, but so does everyone else), drivel indeed.

The majority of teachers are not underpaid, do not suffer from lack of job security and DO get excellent holidays and benefits, yet this majority will/ have voted for strike action. Come off it guys, are you striking to fight for students or against the pension levy. The class sizes. facilities etc have been on the slide for years, but you choose to go on strike now?! Coincidence?!

givyjoe81

Alessandra wrote: »

Typical responses tbh..

If you really wanted to be a teacher, wages wouldn't really come into it. In comparison to "other graduates" yes the money may be better but you have to look at the fact that teaching doesn't suit everyone who graduates college and in order to get decent teachers you have to pay. Consider teachers have a degree AND H.Dip with many having masters.

There is no strike action planned, it is "up to and including strike action". Yes the ballot is about the levy and the cuts. I am not sure but think that many will reluctantly accept the levy but a further proposed income cut would be too much.

Just as the cuts in education spending affect the children, they affect the teacher also. Bigger classes is a decrease in working conditions for teachers. Language support, SNA, Learning support, sport etc will all be cut. These are also vital to any student and vital to ensure the child has the best environment to work in.

Parents have been protesting since these cuts have been made and teachers have given up their time on saturdays to attend the protests. Teaching is a caring profession whether you believe that or not. Most teachers live for the job, rather than to pay the bills. If I didn't like teaching, i'd take a lower paid job in return for less stress. I teach because it's a personally rewarding(not purely economically) profession.

I dont doubt the quality of your education and im not going to start blowing my horn about mine, but you would do well to brush up on education starting with economics. How do you expect a government to continue to pay wages which are far higher in contrast to other comparable nations(public sector workers on average, including teachers) when the government has less money coming in, that it has going out. No business/government can sustain this situation hence you see so many people in the public sector losing their job.

Now obviously this cant happen to the same extent in the public sector, owing to the fact the same numbers of staff or more are needed in areas such as teaching etc. So what can they do?? I dont know, introduce a pension levy perhaps? Or maybe they should have just gone for your wages straight off the bat. Public sector workers have to share in the pain, and according to your unions it seems you dont want to, honestly if i hear one more union clown spouting on about 'fairness' im gonna hunt them down..

oldmillgal

Strike called for the 30th.

nesf

oldmillgal wrote: »

Strike called for the 30th.

My opinions are stated here already: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055506464

I'm not going to repeat them in this thread.

NewDubliner

segaBOY wrote: »

there was talks of the IMF stepping in to take control of our economy not so long ago.

were there? Source please?

K-9

Alessandra wrote: »

Hmm teachers are unpopular with the general public. My colleagues are going to lose 500eu a month, kids in college, husbands lost jobs!! May not get anywhere but it's going to happen.

I reckon there will be 2 days, one the day of general public service strike day and another teachers strike day.

€500 a month?

nesf

K-9 wrote: »

€500 a month?

At €100,000 a year your net loss is approx €415 a month, so eh Teachers on over €100K?

Unless of course she's being disingenuous and calling the gross figure as "down per month" in order to make the levy seem harsher.