Shooting in NI army base

amacachi

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

If you shoot and kill someone who opposes your point of view and are found guilty you will go to jail, exactly the same as what will happen to the culprits of the shooting if they are found. If a British soldier killed someone they would most likely not do any jail time. Bloody Sunday Derry 1972 being an example of an indiscrimate British Army killing spree with nobody brought to justice. This to me is why British occupation of Ireland is more of a problem than many would like to acknowledge.

Are you just trying to rile me now? Bringing Bloody Sunday into this is complete rubbish. Bloody Sunday was an absolute disgrace and abomination that can never be justified. In any way.

And yes, I would go to prison, for committing a crime. Which is all today was, and nothing else.

Liam Byrne

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

If a British soldier killed someone they would most likely not do any jail time.

Are you implying that there's corruption to ensure that they "look after their own" to make sure the truth doesn't come out and they don't go to prison ?

Strong parallels of the Robert McCartney case, so......?

And therein is my objection again; different rules for different sides, complained about if you're on one side, but condoned and excused from the other.

The day a "republican" (complete with quotes, mind!) sees the inconsistencies and starts to treat like with like is the day I'll start thinking they deserve a hearing and might have taken the first step towards earning some of my respect.

Dannyboy83

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Are you implying that there's corruption to ensure that they "look after their own" to make sure the truth doesn't come out and they don't go to prison ?

Strong parallels of the Robert McCartney case, so......?

And therein is my objection again; different rules for different sides, complained about if you're on one side, but condoned and excused from the other.

The day a "republican" (complete with quotes, mind!) sees the inconsistencies and starts to treat like with like is the day I'll start thinking they deserve a hearing and might have taken the first step towards earning some of my respect.

And until they realise those very points, this sorry mess and the horror for the very people they claim to represent and defend, will continue.
For ever.

P. Breathnach

I was feeling a bit guilty about not having washed up after dinner, and decided to read this thread as a punishment. I really should have done the washing up!

Almost all the argument is a waste of effort. Some people have said things here that I consider reprehensible. Nothing I might say has a snowball's chance of making them change their minds. Diehards don't budge. They fix on a certain view of things, and that's it: they know where they stand.

ejmaztec

I'd like to know what the situation would be, were the British to actually walk away from the North after a successful RIRA campaign. Would these people simply hang up their guns and leave the rest to democracy, or would they roam around the entire island killing people who don't happen to share their views?

(Of course, this hypothetical situation ignores the fact that they will have to wipe out thousands of loyalists before they get to start a clean-up in these parts.)

OhNoYouDidn't

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

What I will say outright however, is that you are not compassionate for the murder of human beings or their families.

Do you want a medal? I said that four or five times.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

And your words do more damage to the peace process, with every post you make in this thread.

Get a grip, its an internet forum.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is the last part an insult?
And from the perspective of whom?

Of the Irish who want peace?
Or the British who want peace?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

May I have your permission to post a link to this thread on other forums, to determine if they think I am bigoted?

You can do what you like, but I don't think you are bigoted, just that you are trying to put words in peoples mouths.

Erin Go Brath

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I believe perpetrators on both sides should be brought to justice.

I agree

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

How does that excuse the actions of the RIRA?

It puts it into context.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you support their actions?

I don't support them. Neither would i condemn them.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you agree with the murder of British soldiers?

I believe as long as they garrison themselves in a part of Ireland they are 'fair game'.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you actively seek an end to the Peace Process?

No

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you actively seek violent retaliation by the Loyalists on our doorstep?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you agree they have the upper hand and moral high ground as a result of the RIRA?

The Brits most certainly do not have the high moral ground.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you actively seek a return to hostilities on all sides and the resultant opression and interogation of innocent civilians of a Catholic or Nationalist background?

No, i just want to see the removal of British soldiers from Ireland.

Erin Go Brath

amacachi wrote: »

Are you just trying to rile me now? Bringing Bloody Sunday into this is complete rubbish. Bloody Sunday was an absolute disgrace and abomination that can never be justified. In any way.

And yes, I would go to prison, for committing a crime. Which is all today was, and nothing else.

You therefore then see the problem with British soldiers garrisoned in Ireland i take it. They can kill people with virtual impunity.British security forces are widely known to have a hand in organising the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. You are happy to let these murderers have sovereignty over part of our country?

Liam Byrne

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

You are happy to let these murderers have sovereignty over part of our country?

Interesting question.....have you answered it yourself ?

I'm off to bed, because the above post has just proven my double-standards point beyond any level I could in any further posts in this topic.

amacachi

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

You therefore then see the problem with British soldiers garrisoned in Ireland i take it. They can kill people with virtual impunity.British security forces are widely known to have a hand in organising the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. You are happy to let these murderers have sovereignty over part of our country?

Is it 1972?

Poccington

TomRooney wrote: »

yeah films thats it, the only place you seen combat was on your X-BOX.

What combat have you seen Tom? Please do tell.

Erin Go Brath

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Are you implying that there's corruption to ensure that they "look after their own" to make sure the truth doesn't come out and they don't go to prison ?

You are aware of widespread state sponsored collusion in the 6 counties. You are aware that all documents relating to the Dublin/Monaghan bombing disappeared without trace. A bombing campaign that is widely believed the British security forces organised.
You are aware of the numerous dirty tricks "black ops" assignments that British forces have partaken through the years which are increasingly coming to light.
Crown forces close ranks and suppress documents when it suits them to do so.

Call me paranoid if you like, but i would certainly question if Crown forces have Irelands interests at heart and could be trusted.

Erin Go Brath

amacachi wrote: »

Is it 1972?

There are many examples of Britain abusing their position of power in the 6 counties since then. You should question why you are so trustworthy.

amacachi

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

There are many examples of Britain abusing their position of power in the 6 counties since then. You should question why you are so trustworthy.

Link? And where did I say it was acceptable?

I suppose living in a house with my dad who moved down here in 1977 at 20 years of age due to what was nothing short of persecution may have given me a pro-british bias.:rolleyes:

Dannyboy83

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I agree

I don't support them. Neither would i condemn them.

How about if they shot some civilians next week?
Would you condemn that?

Have the RIRA declared war on the British Army, or just the loyalist factions?

I believe as long as they garrison themselves in a part of Ireland they are 'fair game'.

But aren't they sent here by their government?
Should it not be taken up with the people who sent them here - i.e. via politics?

No

But do you not worry about the damage this will do to the peace process and the likelihood of retaliation?

The Brits most certainly do not have the high moral ground.

There has been peace for a decade.

The criminals who pretend to be on our side (or claim to at least, I completely disown them and want no part in their murder) have fired the first shots.

Do you not agree that the British and the Loyalists now have the high ground and ample reason to step up their security?

No, i just want to see the removal of British soldiers from Ireland.

So do I.
How does this advance their removal in any way, shape or form?

This sets us back, it doesn't move us forward and it never will.
Do you agree or dis-agree?

Erin Go Brath

amacachi wrote: »

Link? And where did I say it was acceptable?

I suppose living in a house with my dad who moved down here in 1977 at 20 years of age due to what was nothing short of persecution may have given me a pro-british bias.:rolleyes:

Some bedtime reading for you:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/collusion/chron.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6285101.stm

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/defenders/hrd_n_ireland/HIRC-collusion-031605.pdf

Dannyboy83

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Do you want a medal? I said that four or five times.

I know, don't worry, everybody read it.

Get a grip, its an internet forum.

Who uses this internet forum?
Is this blocked in Belfast or the North or in England?

You don't suppose there may be some loyalists, unionists or similar people with a mindset to yourself on the other side who are looking for bait?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

The bit where you called me a plank.

You can do what you like, but I don't think you are bigoted, just that you are trying to put words in peoples mouths.

[/quote]

Thanks, done.
I haven't put any words in your mouth.
Its all written on this thread, by yourself.

RiverWilde

I cannot believe that these murdering bastards (real ira and co) are back.
They are so imbued with hate that they cannot believe that the majority of people in Northern Ireland want peace, want to get on with their lives and are fed up of little gob****es wanting to turn Northern Ireland into a fascist state.

Yes there are problems with the Northern Assembly, but the Assembly is there and it's working. Moving forward slowly, but it is moving forward.

I hope these terrorists are rounded up and spend the rest of their lives behind bars.

Riv

Dannyboy83

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I was feeling a bit guilty about not having washed up after dinner, and decided to read this thread as a punishment. I really should have done the washing up!

Almost all the argument is a waste of effort. Some people have said things here that I consider reprehensible. Nothing I might say has a snowball's chance of making them change their minds. Diehards don't budge. They fix on a certain view of things, and that's it: they know where they stand.

"All it takes for evil to succeed is for good to do nothing"

Men like my granduncles and relatives, men that were shot at by Percival and fought genuine oppression, who acted in the flying columns and liberated this country, they are the diehards and I have nothing but pride to be descended from them.
People like my girlfriends grandmother who were in the first wave of the assault on Berlin, or her granduncles who were executed at Buchenwald after defending Smolensk, they are diehards.

Apologists for the Real IRA and those with no compassion for the death of innocent men, they're just cowards.

Luckily, I don't think anyone would be confused but we still have to fight their lies and their hatred, just in case other weak minded individuals get confused.

amacachi

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Some bedtime reading for you:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/collusion/chron.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6285101.stm

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/defenders/hrd_n_ireland/HIRC-collusion-031605.pdf

More recent than '72 at least.

Liam Byrne

Had a few bits to do and had one last look here before calling it a night....

Erin Go Brath, since you either missed or ignored it, I'll ask your question to you again:

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

You are happy to let these murderers have sovereignty over part of our country?

Well ? Are you ?

P. Breathnach

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

"All it takes for evil to succeed is for good to do nothing"

It's not much better if good people waste their time fighting the wrong battles.

No participant in this thread looks like he or she will persuaded to take a different view. I suspect that lurkers, if they have ploughed through all the repetitive arguments, will have made their minds up by now. Given the type and tone of the argument, any reader who has been convinced of anything is probably convinced on the basis of disagreeing with things people have said, rather than agreeing with anybody.

Martyr

the killings were pointless, what exactly did the shooters hope to achieve in the end?
its also hard to know who did it..

Red Sleeping Beauty

Hmm, 2 less soldiers in Afghanistan ...


I wonder will this have any affect on the UK's proposals to tighten border controls between Ireland and the UK

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-abroad/freedom-of-movement-within-the-eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_UK

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/aboutus/consultations/closedconsultations/strentheningthecommontravelarea/

http://search.bbc.co.uk/click/p/1/ds/main/t/News%2520%252d%2520Northern%2520Ireland%2520%252d%2520Border%2520checks%2520%2527may%2520discriminate%2527/id/17231391113963123659172997908409000/sp/a3b54cc88393b489756898d27f81f205/-/http%253a%252f%252fnews%252ebbc%252eco%252euk%252f1%252fhi%252fnorthern%255fireland%252f7922993%252estm

Serenity Now!

TomRooney wrote: »

there has never been a truly representative vote in ireland since 1919

People in Northern Ireland and the Republic voted in two referenda in favour of the exact opposite of what these animals you make every excuse under the sun for.
Your kind should pay attention for once.

TomRooney wrote: »

as for seeing conflict, you dont me, you dont know what i have or have not done, dont make assumptions

Its you who likes to prejudge posters on their contributions "to Ireland". Practise what you preach, darling.
You do post however like the kind who supports murder against the will of the people of Ireland yet would sh*t themselves at the crack of a round.

TomRooney wrote: »

the bottom line is, there is no mandate in the 32 countys for the ongoing presence of british troops/gov in ireland, and untill these troops leave ireland you can expect more of this action. whether you agree or not.

The people on this island have already spoken. You don't seem to be getting this. Hello? Hello?

Rock Climber

dlofnep wrote: »

That's neither here nor there. Distance is irrelevant. It's an arbitrary value to discuss. The British army is the only army in the history of this state, besides Nazi Germany to kill Irish people on Irish soil.

You were but a child at the time,which means it's now becoming a long time ago.
Ever heard of the phrase "move on" ?

What logic? My lack of empathy for British soldiers who have murdered civilians across the world?

Like it or lump it,our biggest trading partner,her people we should be friendly with and they have a different view of their soldiers.
Your statement earlier "not shedding a tear" in other words your wizard of oz style "the wicked witch is dead" approach to British soldiers who were just collecting a pizza in barracks in their own legal jusidiction is appalling.

Now in saying that; I don't believe it was right to kill them. I don't think any good will come of it. Infact, it will make things worse.

I don't believe you believe any of that go ing on what you said.
Also these guys are just common unsupported loonies at this stage.
Jail for a long time methinks.

I couldn't give a fiddlers about America. They are in no position to offer moral guidance to anybody. They have, like the British military forces slaughter thousands around the world. They support Israel's ongoing attacks against the Palestinian people, which in itself is a terrorist act .

SF had no problem raising money there during the troubles and that was after Vitnam by the way...
Honestly I look at SF's attitude a lot of the time and i see ye saying what suits ye at the time irrespective of how it clashes with whatever else ye say.
To be honest with you,I think you should study the language of Martin McGuinness in relation to the soldiers that were killed.
It's proper pragmatism in the face of grass roots like you who seem to want to be stuck in the past as regards our countries relationship with it's friendliest neighbour.

My post is my honest thoughts on the situation. If you don't like honesty, I suggest you look elsewhere. I have already stated that I did not think it was right to do but that I have little to no empathy for members of a military force which slaughters thousands around the world.

I didn't say your post was dishonest.
I just said it portrayed a microsopically tiny minority view [that you don't mind British soldiers out collecting a pizza being murdered] and an attitude most people thankfully would look on with disgust.

Grudaire

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Please don't tarnish the reputation of the IRA with the Óglach na hÉireann impostors.

The truth is that during war and conflict a gangster black economy thrives and certain elements of the new scumbag Republican movement (not the current SF leadership) miss the income generation (or else see conflict as a road to riches for a new generation) plus top IRA men from the last conflict made serious money. FACT!

Huh? I'm just saying that the IRA is a different group to the RIRA (in this case), or the PIRA(who you are talking about)

Michael Collins etc was the IRA, and I didn't see him profiteering.

dlofnep

Rock Climber wrote: »

You were but a child at the time,which means it's now becoming a long time ago.
Ever heard of the phrase "move on" ?

Like it or lump it,our biggest trading partner,her people we should be friendly with and they have a different view of their soldiers.

Move on from what exactly? I'm all for peace. I moved on like everybody else after the GFA. I don't support this attack in anyway shape or form. I think it was stupid to do.

But as for "moving on" - Fancy taking a trip to Derry and telling the families of Bloody Sunday to move on, when their killers still walk free today; unaccountable for their actions? Events may have calmed; But it doesn't change the fact that the British government has not respected the families that their troops have killed, by offering a fair and just report on the events; putting those responsible behind bars.

And this is just one instance, or many around the world where British troops have murdered civilians, and have got away with it scot-free. So you're going to have to forgive my lack of empathy towards British troops. They are shadows behind some of the worst abuses of basic human rights in the world.

Attacks like that created the environment in the north that's there today and that is why these "loonies" are in the mindframe that they are. Too many bad stigmas are left because of attacks on the Irish public by British troops, and collusion between loyalist terrorists and British security forces. That can only be healed by making those responsible accountable for their actions, and bringing them to justice. It would create alot more faith for the British Government by Irish republicans. Infact, dare I say - if a British Government went outside the norm and actively pursued this, they would be respected for it.

Rock Climber wrote: »

Also these guys are just common unsupported loonies at this stage.

You don't have to tell me. I'm well aware of the lack of support for an armed campaign in Ireland. I don't support it myself. I've already stated that I think that this attack was wrong and I personally feel that the likes of the RIRA and CIRA have no support and do not have the capacity to do anything positive for the people of Ireland.

Rock Climber wrote: »

To be honest with you,I think you should study the language of Martin McGuinness in relation to the soldiers that were killed.
It's proper pragmatism in the face of grass roots like you who seem to want to be stuck in the past as regards our countries relationship with it's friendliest neighbour.

Look, I'm going to be frank with you. You're going to find it hard to get sympathy for British troops when it comes to speaking to a Republican. But at the same point, I don't like the idea of you twisting my words. I'm not condoning the attacks, and they serve absolutely no purpose in the broad scheme of things. My only fault is truly my lack of empathy for British soldiers, which is well founded and justified.

I wonder would you kick up as much about the deaths of the civilians that they have killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and indeed the north? I doubt it.

Rock Climber wrote: »

I just said it portrayed a microsopically tiny minority view [that you don't mind British soldiers out collecting a pizza being murdered] and an attitude most people thankfully would look on with disgust.

I didn't say "I don't mind". I obviously do mind. I think it has ruined the political peace-process, and will create a tit for tat environment, that will leave many innocent civilians dead. I stated that I had a lack of empathy for the soldiers. There is a difference. I don't need to justify to you, or anybody else why my love of British soldiers is not very high.

jimmmy

Geogregor wrote: »

It is sad day.
I'm surprised to see people happy to see this event happening and trying to justify this murder.
I guess for most of the foreigners (people not directly involved in all this Irish mess so more objective) it will be seen as cowardly act.
How shooting people delivering pizza might be called war?

What Irish soil? By international law NI is part of UK.

The same with western Ukraine which used to be Polish and have some polish minority. Thank god that we don't have idiots shooting poor Ukrainians in name of getting it back, otherwise Europe would burn in constant war. It is now part of Ukraine, end of story.

As I understand there is distant possibility of some sort of unification of Ireland but it will never happen by force or terrorism. There is no war. People get over it.

As far as I red those soldiers were from engineering unit. Maybe there were going to build some useful stuff in Afghanistan?
But of course for some people they are just going to shoot poor unarmed civilians.

Well said. Its a sad day when after a decade or so of relative peace the extremists start the killing again. As someone else said, its hard to " believe that these murdering bastards (real ira and co) are back.
They are so imbued with hate that they cannot believe that the majority of people in Northern Ireland want peace, want to get on with their lives "

Rock Climber

dlofnep wrote: »

Move on from what exactly? I'm all for peace. I moved on like everybody else after the GFA. I don't support this attack in anyway shape or form. I think it was stupid to do.

You don't shed a tear is what you said.
Thats a euphimism for you don't care about the death.
Now please don't get me wrong here,I'm just expressing an opinion on what you wrote.It's because I'm disgusted with tiny minority views like the one you are expressing.
It comes across as being completely two faced in this thread about the murders.
You can't say you care about them or you've moved on if you have a disregard for the lives of Brittish soldiers collecting a pizza at the gates of their barracks.

But as for "moving on" - Fancy taking a trip to Derry and telling the families of Bloody Sunday to move on, when their killers still walk free today; unaccountable for their actions? Events may have calmed; But it doesn't change the fact that the British government has not respected the families that their troops have killed, by offering a fair and just report on the events; putting those responsible behind bars.

And you say you have moved on and you post this?
I really think you should move on and follow the more pragmatic tone of Mr McGuinness.
I know theres an underlying slowness to do this in republicanism but it needs to be done as most of the rest of us find yesterdays murders outrageous.

And this is just one instance, or many around the world where British troops have murdered civilians, and have got away with it scot-free. So you're going to have to forgive my lack of empathy towards British troops. They are shadows behind some of the worst abuses of basic human rights in the world.

You haven't moved on,why don't you just say it?
Repeating that in the light of what I said is I'm afraid indicative of being stuck in the past.
You'll have to forgive me and the 90% plus that have moved on in this island.

Attacks like that created the environment in the north that's there today and that is why these "loonies" are in the mindframe that they are. Too many bad stigmas are left because of attacks on the Irish public by British troops, and collusion between loyalist terrorists and British security forces. That can only be healed by making those responsible accountable for their actions, and bringing them to justice. It would create alot more faith for the British Government by Irish republicans. Infact, dare I say - if a British Government went outside the norm and actively pursued this, they would be respected for it.

This is the third evocation about the past and you say you've moved on.You haven't.
This is reading like a hard line attitude you have

You don't have to tell me. I'm well aware of the lack of support for an armed campaign in Ireland. I don't support it myself. I've already stated that I think that this attack was wrong and I personally feel that the likes of the RIRA and CIRA have no support and do not have the capacity to do anything positive for the people of Ireland.

Thats a regrettable attitude to retain imho and looks two faced to be honest with you as you've already stated that you don't shed a tear at the murder of the soldiers.

Look, I'm going to be frank with you. You're going to find it hard to get sympathy for British troops when it comes to speaking to a Republican. But at the same point, I don't like the idea of you twisting my words. I'm not condoning the attacks, and they serve absolutely no purpose in the broad scheme of things. My only fault is truly my lack of empathy for British soldiers, which is well founded and justified.

I know I'm not going to get any sympathy for these unforunate murdered soldiers at a time when the rest of us have long since moved on.
But I'm entitled to point out the damage such a position can cause an otherwise aspiring political movement.
I hope you dont mind me saying but Martin McGuinness did an awfull lot better job last night on BBC NI explaining the icy ground needed to be threaded upon when dealing with the deaths of British soldiers even in 2009 in NI.
He even expressed sympathy to the bereaved.
He did so whilst explaining that he like most nationalists and republicans want to see those troops out and the rawness thats in the backs of peoples minds [on all sides] regarding the troubles.
As regards twisting your words.It was you who said you'd not shed a tear for the murdered in this case.I find that disgusting and appalling.

I wonder would you kick up as much about the deaths of the civilians that they have killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and indeed the north? I doubt it.

Whats going on in Afghanistan is a war against the Taliban.
These are the people who would put our girlfriends in burka's and stop their education and hang homosexuals.They'd stop at nothing to impliment that type of caveman ideology.
I do regret the deaths of civilians in such a sanctioned war but that kind of shit happens in a war.
What Rira did yesterday is not an act of war,it is a criminal act.

I didn't say "I don't mind". I obviously do mind. I think it has ruined the political peace-process, and will create a tit for tat environment, that will leave many innocent civilians dead. I stated that I had a lack of empathy for the soldiers.

With Martin McGuinness's words last night [who gained my respect] I think that won't happen.

There is a difference. I don't need to justify to you, or anybody else why my love of British soldiers is not very high.

I know you don't but with respect, I'd suggest you'd be more at home in the 32 county sovereignity movement or whatever the quasi political wing of Rira call themselves these days than in Sinn Féin unless you move on.