Shooting in NI army base

fitz0

Are you implying that the only people who could have done this are the PIRA? I would highly doubt they are involved and therefore SF have zero culpability. I suppose we will have to wait and see who claims it and who denies it.

Offy

fitz0 wrote: »

Are you implying that the only people who could have done this are the PIRA? I would highly doubt they are involved and therefore SF have zero culpability. I suppose we will have to wait and see who claims it and who denies it.

What Im implying is that if it was SF/IRA it will really hurt their political standing, if you looks back at history fitz0 you will see that ceasefires have been broken by both SF/IRA AND the British government, Im not implying it was them either. Nor am I implying it was Loyalists. Im not implying anything but I would keep an open mind about any of those three groups. With the history of this anything is possible. Neither the IRA(INLA, PIRA, etc.), various Loyalist paramilitary or the British government are beyond murder and I include murdering their own in that statement.

brianthebard

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion but whichever group was involved in these murders needs to be brought into talks as soon as possible. Cracking down with force will only lead to an escalation of violence and legitimisation of armed attacks. Whether any of the main political players are big enough to keep a cool head right now and look for a diplomatic response instead of a military one is hard to say.

nij

The more I think about it, the more I suspect Loyalist involvement. These kinds of things DO happen. I'd say Unionists feel that they are being swallowed up by Irish culture. There are Irish language programmes on BBC NI even! Ever see those low budget ads for Ulster Scots heritage events?

So, as someone else said - who has the most to gain by committing this act?

Tom65

brianthebard wrote: »

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion but whichever group was involved in these murders needs to be brought into talks as soon as possible. Cracking down with force will only lead to an escalation of violence and legitimisation of armed attacks. Whether any of the main political players are big enough to keep a cool head right now and look for a diplomatic response instead of a military one is hard to say.

I don't think it's possible. Apart from being politically toxic, the republican splinter groups are so fragmented it'd be difficult to know who to talk to. I mean, even if there were talks with the Real IRA, there'd still be the CIRA and various other dissidents. I do agree though that there shouldn't be a heavy-handed crack down. Find the people responsible, put them on trial, and don't make a big show of it. Though the British government is unparalleled when it comes to make martyrs out of people.

bmaxi

This is a deliberate attempt to create a reaction and allow these scum to go back to their murder and mayhem.
Looked at logically, there is no reason for the Provos to do it, there is no reason for the security forces to do it, there is no reason for Loyalists to do it . Who does that leave?
The people who stand out most in my mind are those same people who carried out Omagh and there is no point in trying to engage their likes in rational debate, it has been tried before. Even the main body of the Provos had no influence on these guys, they are a law unto themselves. It needs to be realised that they are no friends of the Irish people. North or South, Nationalist or Loyalist.
Great efforts have been made over the last ten years to level the playing field in the North and these criminals are determined to dig it up again just for their own ends, they have seen their little fiefdoms whittled away and their activities curtailed. They are prepared to mount attacks on either side of the border and recently a PSNI officer was forced to flee from his home in the Republic.
So unless we want to go back to the days of checkpoints and armed military patrols, fortified barracks, listening posts and a wedge again being driven between our communities again, we must stand up to these thugs.

Bottle_of_Smoke

brianthebard wrote: »

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion but whichever group was involved in these murders needs to be brought into talks as soon as possible. Cracking down with force will only lead to an escalation of violence and legitimisation of armed attacks. Whether any of the main political players are big enough to keep a cool head right now and look for a diplomatic response instead of a military one is hard to say.

These people won't accept ANYTHING but a 32 county republic. Thats not going to happen, so what would be the point of talks?

FTA69

The fact people here are suspecting Loyalists or the Provos demonstrates that some people here haven't a clue to be honest. To anyone following events over the past couple of years this attack won't come as a surprise at all. A few months back the Continuity IRA injured a number of soldiers in a rocket attack, and the Real IRA shot two cops in Dungannon and Derry. These groups have been trying to inflict a casualty on the crown forces for ten years straight, it was only a matter of time before they succeeded. It is clear that these groups, especially the Real IRA, have evolved to some extent out of their previous buffoonery and have become more capable organisations. Personally I believe it was the Real IRA behind this but no-one has claimed the attack yet so that remains to be seen.

This attack serves neither the Brits nor the Provos nor the Loyalists. The Brits have succeeded in implementing their strategy of Ulsterisation, Normalisation and Criminalisation. The northern state is stable and will remain a secure part of the United Kingdom as long as the Unionists wish it. Their former enemies in the Provisional Republican Movement are now in government in a UK context. The last the Brits or the Provos want is dead soldiers and bomb attacks as it disrupts the process which both of these parties have bought into.

Bottle_of_Smoke

nij wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I suspect Loyalist involvement. These kinds of things DO happen. I'd say Unionists feel that they are being swallowed up by Irish culture. There are Irish language programmes on BBC NI even! Ever see those low budget ads for Ulster Scots heritage events?

So, as someone else said - who has the most to gain by committing this act?

Millitant Republicans who don't accept the GFA and want to see the talks fall apart. Want to embarrass Sinn Fein and enrage the PUL community.

Yes, the perpetrators and planners behind it may be ex-provos of course, in fact that is highly likely, but it would be unfair to link them to modern Sinn Fein, who I accept have turned their backs on this sort of thing.

Loyalists? Well, they may very well want to destroy Sinn Fein in Government but I'm not so sure they'd do this, I don't think its their style. I just hope to God we don't start seeing their style in the near future

Condolences to the famililes, don't know how they could deal with something like this. The thoughts of a young man being gunned down doing something as simple as looking forward to eating a pizza is sickening.

brianthebard

Tom65 wrote: »

I don't think it's possible. Apart from being politically toxic, the republican splinter groups are so fragmented it'd be difficult to know who to talk to. I mean, even if there were talks with the Real IRA, there'd still be the CIRA and various other dissidents. I do agree though that there shouldn't be a heavy-handed crack down. Find the people responsible, put them on trial, and don't make a big show of it. Though the British government is unparalleled when it comes to make martyrs out of people.

At some point one group is going to come out and claim it was their doing. They would then need to be approached for talks.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

These people won't accept ANYTHING but a 32 county republic. Thats not going to happen, so what would be the point of talks?

Do you know that for sure? SF were supposedly just like that a while ago. So were some of the military organisations that have since accepted the gfa. Its impossible to know they won't accept anything if they are never made part of the talks about the future of the north. Yes its unpalatable to some to be talking with terrorists, but secret talks with various groups were a huge part of the making of the good friday agreement, and really, what's the alternative? Bring in more troops, crack down, and thus justify more attacks?

Bottle_of_Smoke

brianthebard wrote: »

Do you know that for sure? SF were supposedly just like that a while ago. So were some of the military organisations that have since accepted the gfa. Its impossible to know they won't accept anything if they are never made part of the talks about the future of the north. Yes its unpalatable to some to be talking with terrorists, but secret talks with various groups were a huge part of the making of the good friday agreement, and really, what's the alternative? Bring in more troops, crack down, and thus justify more attacks?

I'm fairly sure. This was probably the Oglaigh na hEireann who have no political wing. The IRA always had Sinn Fein.

What, for example do you think these terrorists would concede to other than a united Ireland? Give them South Armagh and West Derry? The Unionist community would never put up with that as they'd see it as pushing them out of Ulster. Any other Ideas?

OhNoYouDidn't

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

These people won't accept ANYTHING but a 32 county republic. Thats not going to happen, so what would be the point of talks?

Of course it isn't...:rolleyes:

This was an amateur night attack that got lucky. Sloppy security from soldiers getting a delivery of pizza and the gunman took advantage.

Who the gunman are and who is backing them will emerge in time, but one thing is guranteed, it has nothing to do with the provisional movement.

blackgold>>

Maybe it is another false flag operation as has happened plenty of times.

FTA69

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Of course it isn't...:rolleyes:

This was an amateur night attack that got lucky. Sloppy security from soldiers getting a delivery of pizza and the gunman took advantage.

I wouldnt say it was that amateur like, they managed to whack two Brits and injure two others at the gate of a British Army barracks full of soldiers and get away cleanly.

blackgold>>

This is a perfect time to discredit sinn fein.The english know that sinn fein will win alot of seats as ff are all but finished.The brits don't want to see sinn fein having any more power in the republic. For those who seen the sinn fein ardeche a few weeks ago- they will win alot of seats in the next election.
This is all to do with the economic sh!t storm.

Bottle_of_Smoke

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Of course it isn't...:rolleyes:

This was an amateur night attack that got lucky. Sloppy security from soldiers getting a delivery of pizza and the gunman took advantage.

Who the gunman are and who is backing them will emerge in time, but one thing is guranteed, it has nothing to do with the provisional movement.

Two men are dead. Can you not keep anything on topic?

I have no problem with republicans pursuing a united Ireland through political means but in the short term a United Ireland is not going to happen and it is never going to happen through cowards murdering a few lads enjoying a pizza. Thats the context I meant it in and what's worse is you know that

Grow the f*ck up

meathstevie

There's absolutely nothing wrong with aspiring to a 32-county republic. Sinn Fein and the Provo's still have those aspirations and that's absolutely fine and since the GFA those folks have basicly stated that the will try and work towards that aspiration by political means only. The other crowd(CIRA,and "Real" IRA ) on the contrary have no interest in politics at all and have also stated that recently, published in the Irish News. They claim to strive towards a 32-county republic but how can you do that if the only thing you wish to do to further that goal is cause carnage ? Does anyone think these people will abide by the law and will respect for example An Garda Siochana as the sole agency entitled to enforce the law on behalf of the state if a 32-county republic came into existance tomorrow ? Or will they continue smuggling fuel, tobacco, flog fake designer stuff, sell copied DVD's etc and commit the odd bit of carnage to justify their own delusions every once in a while ?

OhNoYouDidn't

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Two men are dead. Can you not keep anything on topic?

I have no problem with republicans pursuing a united Ireland through political means but in the short term a United Ireland is not going to happen and it is never going to happen through cowards murdering a few lads enjoying a pizza. Thats the context I meant it in and what's worse is you know that

Grow the f*ck up

Me grow up?

The are not "a few lads enjoying a pizza". They are an occupying force and let their guard down. To the point where the dissidents (presumably) were able to kill two of them at close range. How is it off topic?

My fear is that this blind luck may result in whichever group carried out this operation may result in them gaining kudos from within the nationalist community.

Bottle_of_Smoke

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Me grow up?

The are not "a few lads enjoying a pizza". They are an occupying force and let their guard down. To the point where the dissidents (presumably) were able to kill two of them at close range. How is it off topic?

My fear is that this blind luck may result in whichever group carried out this operation may result in them gaining kudos from within the nationalist community.

This part was off topic

These people won't accept ANYTHING but a 32 county republic. Thats not going to happen, so what would be the point of talks?

Of course it isn't...:rolleyes:

You knew I was referring to the short term and the attack in itself as regards a united ireland so your sarcastic rolleyes comment was pointless

FTA69

The are not "a few lads enjoying a pizza". They are an occupying force and let their guard down.

Spot on. If you choose to buy into the all the macho-man rubbish on the TV and join an army you know full well is an occupying force in three countries then don't be stricken with surprise when someone in one of these countries decides to shoot at you.

sceptre

Guys, this is not the thread for discussing the legitimacy of the continued presence of the British Army in Northern Ireland. For those that think it is, the other people are talking about the significance of this incident and what it means/may mean for the peace process and that's more pertinent, more relevant and far more interesting.

If you try to turn it into a thread on the the legitimacy of the continued presence of the British Army in Northern Ireland, I will regard it as thread spoiling, I will take action and you will be put outside the classroom door for a while.

OhNoYouDidn't

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You knew I was referring to the short term and the attack in itself as regards a united ireland so your sarcastic rolleyes comment was pointless

How was I to know that? If you are going to articulate yourself badly you will be misunderstood.

A United Ireland is coming. Thats the salient fact due to the British agreeing to accept the results of a vote on the matter. But it also makes this attack all the more irrelevant in the scheme of things. All the dissidents are trying to do is jockey for position as PSF become more and more aloof from their base.

brianthebard

blackgold>> wrote: »

This is a perfect time to discredit sinn fein.The english know that sinn fein will win alot of seats as ff are all but finished.The brits don't want to see sinn fein having any more power in the republic. For those who seen the sinn fein ardeche a few weeks ago- they will win alot of seats in the next election.
This is all to do with the economic sh!t storm.

This is completely unrealistic, SF were supposed to win ten seats in the last election and afaik lost one. SF are always supposed to be on the brink of breaking through but they haven't created a strong enough supporter base, strong enough policies or credible enough leadership. This attack imo was not about sinn fein.

Offy

The attack might be down to one of the soldiers having an affair with some nutters wife for all we know right now. Whatever the reason it was wrong. The fact that British soldiers were killed does not necessaryly mean it was a paramilitary killing.

FTA69

The fact that British soldiers were killed does not necessaryly mean it was a paramilitary killing.

The Real IRA has claimed it.

But is it normal to banned for life for saying that while the attack was bad in every way, it wasn't necessarily cowardly? I didn't think people had this sort of power in the forums!!

Yerrah, he's only a whingebag. Don't mind him. You'll have to direct your post toward the mods though, issues around moderation aren't really dealt with in open forum.

brianthebard

FTA69 wrote: »

The Real IRA has claimed it.

Link?

fitz0

Over on politics.ie it was said that a RIRA codeword was phoned into the tribune.

http://www.politics.ie/northern-ireland/51378-didnt-take-long-attack-army-49.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0308/massereene.html

cossworxenergy

The decision of Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde last week to enlist the help of British Soldiers for the purpose of reconaissance missions of the dissidents republicans was a blatant disregard for the peace process and the safety of british soldiers and the public. This ridiculous decision has caused the death of two innocent British Soldiers and injured four others seriously. How could he not have forseen the result of such ridiculous actions. He knew damn well what would happen and it is my opinion he wishes to disrupt the peace process and powersharing in Northern Ireland. The policing of the north should be left to the PSNI solely and not enlist the help of British Soldiers regardless of the small handful he sourced. There are enough Policing resources both north and south both highly experienced to watch the movements of dissident republicans and the likes.
This attack believed to be purpotrated by Dissident republicans of whom there are only a handful left with little support. Their goal is to get more british soldiers back to the north and create anoter war. Reactions from all political parties including Sinn Fein clearly indicate that there is no tolerance of these cowardly individuals and that peace is still at the forefront both north and south. These idiots killed unarmed soldiers and shot at civilians. They have no cause they are simply murderers and the public and the governments both north and south will continue the succesful work of creating a united ireland and peace will prevail!!
Sincere candolences to the soldiers killed and people injured in this attack.
PEACE WILL BE RIGHTLY ENJOYED BY THE DESERVING PEOPLE OF IRELAND BOTH NORTH AND SOUTH.

nesf

Anyone with complaints about bans for posts on this topic on other forums of this site should make their complaints on the Help Desk and not here. I will delete such posts since they are utterly off-topic.

Offy

Does the ceasefire agreement say anything about the British army spying on anyone (regardless of what group the supposedly belong to) as regards weather or not its acceptable during the ceasefire? Does anyone know? It seems like a silly thing to do if you really want peace.