Shooting in NI army base

TomRooney

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I wasn't aware of this but your next point



Nor do I.
And I am sorry for their death.
And the damage to the peace process.

Sinn Fein themselves have said its despicable and inexcusable.



I don't.
Its not self defense.
And, despite their wishes, intentions, ambitions or aims............its not Irish soil.

Can you not understand it?

I wish it was, but its not. Not legally or by any other means.
Its part of the United Kingdom.

These acts ensure it will NEVER be Irish soil.

Governments will NEVER submit to terrorisim, look at Afganistan/Iraq/Pakistan!!

Do you agree with me here?




Yes, it WAS an act of war.
An a cowardly act at that.

No matter WHO was murdered, I would be saying this.



I am opposed to the British presence here!!!
Who said I am not?

I don't support murdering scum tho.

There is a politicial process.

Anyone who disagrees should do everyone a favour and turn their guns on themselves!

one question for you, when did the 6 countys cease to be irish soil.
was it after the british drew an invisible line around 6 countys by threat of force proclaiming it to be british...?

Liam Byrne

TomRooney wrote: »

i made a mistake on that i meant 80 percent instead of 90, not a major difference.. stop clutching at straws. its pathetic on your behalf.

Ahem! You said "OVER 90%" and then quoted a source that mentioned "UNDER 80%"......even when acknowledging that you're wrong you're trying to put a spin on it.

PLUS (like I asked) were that UNDER 80% asked if they'd support shooting people, or was it a simpler question in that - like lots of people, including me - we'd IDEALLY like to see a united Ireland where the whole island is one country but (a) we've no right to dictate to others and (b) we definitely don't want blood spilt - it has to be a democratic, legitimate and natural process ?

I mean, if polled I'd say that I'd LOVE to see Munster win the Heineken Cup, too, but not if they ignored the rules of the game and violently beat the opposition to a pulp in order to achieve it.....

Ronan|Raven

TomRooney wrote: »

it may be a game for you, but the fact you can not provide proof leaves it clear for all to see, you are lying and you have zero credibility.

Provide proof? Can you provide me proof that those two british soldiers were going to kill innocent afghans as you have said previously?

Erin Go Brath

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd prefer to view Gerry McCabe as a martyr for Ireland; plus (ironically) if the 2 British soldiers finally get the British and Irish Governments to say "Right, we've had enough" and take decisive action to ensure peace on this island, it could well turn out that those soliders could end up as "martyrs for Ireland".

The only way peace can happen is if Britain no longer has sovereignty over part of Ireland. Anything short of a full withdrawal will ensure conflict remains.

Dannyboy83

TomRooney wrote: »

one question for you, when did the 6 countys cease to be irish soil.
was it after the british drew an invisible line around 6 countys by threat of force proclaiming it to be british...?

Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Union_1800

Then later here, when the majority opted out of the Irish Free State:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Treaty

This is all democratically and politicaly solid.

Our claim on the North is no more valid than our claim on Brazil.

I hope to live to see them join us as 1 nation.
But we will NEVER achieve that through violence.

TomRooney

gandalf wrote: »

You are a very skilled and dedicated apologist Tom. There is no more war, there is a period of reconciliation. The extreme minority cannot accept this so they become heroes by shooting people ordering a pepperoni.

This is murder, there is no other way to colour it. You are not worthy and do not deserve to be called Irish.

Another useless armchair republican ejaculating bile and hatred.

i am no apologist, i am simply a man aware of the realitys of the situation, i am also aware of the hidden agendas of both the 26 county admin and the brits.

the corrupt cronys in leinster house have too much to lose if they are to be forced from leinster house, they would sell there own mothers to prevent this from happening, hence media propaganda and media blackouts on the Republican view.

dosman

what the feck?

Four young lads have been shot. two dead. For what? I reiterate for what?

An absolute disgrace.

If you want to comment about imperialist hegemony get a feckin grip.

It's over...

TomRooney

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Union_1800

Then later here, when the majority opted out of the Irish Free State:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Treaty

This is all democratically and politicaly solid.

Our claim on the North is no more valid than our claim on Brazil.

I hope to live to see them join us as 1 nation.
But we will NEVER achieve that through violence.

oh im so happy you posted this.

you mean the act of union drafted by the british government, the one they forced on ireland under threat of war...? this act of union....i hope you understand that today this would be called signing a document under duress and would not be valid in anyway.

untill the british government forced partition on ireland by threat of war, ireland consisted of 32 countys 4 provinces a 9 county ulster not 6 and was one united nation.

therefore the 6 countys under occupation are in reality part of the irish nation.

TomRooney

dosman wrote: »

what the feck?

Four young lads have been shot. two dead. For what? I reiterate for what?

An absolute disgrace.

If you want to comment about imperialist hegemony get a feckin grip.

It's over...

2 british soldiers have been killed in a military action by irish volunteers against occupying forces.

when the brits troops leave we will have peace.

Dannyboy83

TomRooney wrote: »

oh im so happy you posted this.

you mean the act of union drafted by the british government, the one they forced on ireland under threat of war...? this act of union....i hope you understand that today this would be called signing a document under duress and would not be valid in anyway.

untill the british government forced partition on ireland by threat of war, ireland consisted of 32 countys 4 provinces a 9 county ulster not 6 and was one united nation.

therefore the 6 countys under occupation are in reality part of the irish nation.

I'm sure you've been through this rigamarole a million times.

Fair enough I accept your argument, its valid.

So, can you show me some proof as to where the democratic majority of the North have specifically stated they wish to join the Republic in union as 1 nation?

Believe me Tom, it would make my day.
I want Irish Unity.

Liam Byrne

TomRooney wrote: »

i am also aware of the hidden agendas of both the 26 county admin and the brits.

Hidden Agendas ? Any chance of that much-requested-by-you proof ?

And what part of "we don't want any more violence" - as voted for by the vast majority of the inhabitants of this island - is a "hidden agenda" ? I don't CARE what agenda ANYONE has, as long as it achieves what I want, which is an END to ALL violence and murders, and an end to deluded scumbags claiming that they're somehow doing this for me.

TomRooney wrote: »

the corrupt cronys in leinster house have too much to lose if they are to be forced from leinster house, they would sell there own mothers to prevent this from happening

Agreed - they've proved that on numerous topics to date.

TomRooney wrote: »

hence media propaganda and media blackouts on the Republican view.

Again, proof ?

I'd LOVE to hear more of this "republican view" because if this thread is anything to go by, it's biased, inconsistent and completely two-faced, and it's long overdue time that it be exposed for what it is.

But maybe you could prove me completely wrong ? Like I said above, if the "volunteer" was going for pizza, is it OK for the Brits to shoot him ?

GuanYin

I would like to express my sorrow and extend my condolences to the families of the British soldiers killed, their friends and colleagues and the British army for their loss.

It is awful to ever see a loss of life, especially one so senseless and as part of a horrific murder in cold blood.

I hope that those involved are brought to justice but in the meantime, first and foremost my thoughts are with the families.

Geogregor

It is sad day.
I'm surprised to see people happy to see this event happening and trying to justify this murder.
I guess for most of the foreigners (people not directly involved in all this Irish mess so more objective) it will be seen as cowardly act.
How shooting people delivering pizza might be called war?

What Irish soil? By international law NI is part of UK.

The same with western Ukraine which used to be Polish and have some polish minority. Thank god that we don't have idiots shooting poor Ukrainians in name of getting it back, otherwise Europe would burn in constant war. It is now part of Ukraine, end of story.

As I understand there is distant possibility of some sort of unification of Ireland but it will never happen by force or terrorism. There is no war. People get over it.

As far as I red those soldiers were from engineering unit. Maybe there were going to build some useful stuff in Afghanistan?
But of course for some people they are just going to shoot poor unarmed civilians.

amacachi

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd LOVE to hear more of this "republican view" because if this thread is anything to go by, it's biased, inconsistent and completely two-faced, and it's long overdue time that it be exposed for what it is.

As I said earlier, don't tar all republicans with the same brush. The RIRA are those guys who planted a bomb disguised as a torch outside a TA barracks in London, leading to him having his hand blown off. There's a huge difference between that and fighting to get equal rights or to defend one's family.

gandalf

TomRooney wrote: »

i am no apologist, i am simply a man aware of the realitys of the situation, i am also aware of the hidden agendas of both the 26 county admin and the brits.

the corrupt cronys in leinster house have too much to lose if they are to be forced from leinster house, they would sell there own mothers to prevent this from happening, hence media propaganda and media blackouts on the Republican view.

You know what Tom the more I read of your apologist musings the more sorry I feel for you. Infact I would go so far as to say I pity you.

I once revelled in the deaths of British Service men. It was during the Falklands War and I was 12. Guess what I grew up. I realised that life is grey and not black and white.

I believe a united Ireland will happen but only when there is compromise and agreement between the majority both North and South of the border in all communities. The majority already know it cannot be via the gun.

I have to laugh at your use of the word reality. Reading your posts reminded me of the Father Ted episode where Ted explained to Dougal the difference between Reality and Fantasy. Reality is that the majority voted for the Good Friday agreement to help bring peace to this island, the Fantasy is the Walter Mitty land that the extreme minority that you represent and apologise for occupy.

The sooner you and others like you mature and no more sons are murdered to extend a discredited criminal enterprise that the so called republican struggle has evolved into. To be honest they and the so-called loyalist criminals are all the same. A pack of hypocritical murderers. All the same.

Erin Go Brath

dosman wrote: »

what the feck?

Four young lads have been shot. two dead. For what? I reiterate for what?

An absolute disgrace.

If you want to comment about imperialist hegemony get a feckin grip.

It's over...

You can ignore the root cause of the problem, the British occupation of a part of Ireland as much as you want, however its the reason they were killed. These guys signed up to go into hostile territory and uphold British control over the region. They payed with their lives.

Dannyboy83

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

You can ignore the root cause of the problem, the British occupation of a part of Ireland as much as you want, however its the reason they were killed. These guys signed up to go into hostile territory and uphold British control over the region. They payed with their lives.

Who is ignoring what?

Isn't there a peace process?
Isn't there a cease fire?
Isn't there political means to achieving our objectives?

If it hasn't been a root cause for murder for 10 years, why has it become one now again?
Is it that the criminals who operate under political banners, deviod of support from either faction, either political party or either population, have nothing to do?

Who do they claim to represent?

Geogregor

TomRooney wrote: »

2 british soldiers have been killed in a military action by irish volunteers against occupying forces.

You must be seriously mad.
What military action? It is cold blooded murder.
Even during war for such behaviour you will get field court-martial.

when the brits troops leave we will have peace.

There won't be peace because you will have protestant resistance.

Liam Byrne

amacachi wrote: »

As I said earlier, don't tar all republicans with the same brush. The RIRA are those guys who planted a bomb disguised as a torch outside a TA barracks in London, leading to him having his hand blown off. There's a huge difference between that and fighting to get equal rights or to defend one's family.

No argument here, amacachi, and apologies if I unintentionally implied otherwise.....in fact, what you've posted is indicative of the damage that the "republican movement" has done; there's a reason that I put that in quotes, because I make the same differentiation that you do - any movement to get equal rights and stamp out discrimination is 100% welcome, and I support it 100%........but the phrase has been hijacked by the terrorists and has nothing to do with equal rights and more to do with one-upmanship and settling centuries-old scores, regardless of the wishes of the people.

And that blurring of lines between the two is difficult to follow or differentiate at times.

Anyone who truly wants equal rights would fully accept that they cannot be seen to condone the murder of someone going for pizza while crying foul at the murder of "one of their side" while they were going about their daily lives.

So anyone that does that, I'll gladly ridicule until they see the two-facedness of their stance. They have - as you highlighted by your post - dirtied the word "republican".

But anyone who simply wants equal rights for all and does not condone murder - OF ANYONE - has my complete support.

GuanYin

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

You can ignore the root cause of the problem, the British occupation of a part of Ireland as much as you want, however its the reason they were killed. These guys signed up to go into hostile territory and uphold British control over the region. They payed with their lives.

They were not actively engaging anyone. They were in a state under a peace treaty ordering pizza.

EVEN IF you suggest that they are an occupying force in a region, ALL the governments involved all the organizations involved INCLUDING the IRA, are currently under a peace treaty.

They were shot in cold blood under a peace treaty, the people involved are criminals and deserve no support.

Dannyboy83

TomRooney wrote: »

oh im so happy you posted this.

you mean the act of union drafted by the british government, the one they forced on ireland under threat of war...? this act of union....i hope you understand that today this would be called signing a document under duress and would not be valid in anyway.

untill the british government forced partition on ireland by threat of war, ireland consisted of 32 countys 4 provinces a 9 county ulster not 6 and was one united nation.

therefore the 6 countys under occupation are in reality part of the irish nation.

I accept your argument, its valid.

can you show me some proof as to where the democratic majority of the North have specifically stated they wish to join the Republic in union as 1 nation?

I want Irish Unity.

Bump for Tom

Erin Go Brath

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Who is ignoring what?

Isn't there a peace process?
Isn't there a cease fire?
Isn't there political means to achieving our objectives?

Yes
Yes (the real ira or not on a ceasefire though)
Yes

However there is still 5,000 British soldiers garrisoned in the north of Ireland. This will always be highly contentious and unacceptable to many people regardless of whatever international agreements exist.

dosman

TomRooney wrote: »

2 british soldiers have been killed in a military action by irish volunteers against occupying forces.

when the brits troops leave we will have peace.

For feck's sake.

There is peace now. You have to believe in the democratic process.

There is no silver bullet. Violence will achieve nothing.

Erin Go Brath

GuanYin wrote: »

They were not actively engaging anyone. They were in a state under a peace treaty ordering pizza.

EVEN IF you suggest that they are an occupying force in a region, ALL the governments involved all the organizations involved INCLUDING the IRA, are currently under a peace treaty.

They were shot in cold blood under a peace treaty, the people involved are criminals and deserve no support.

The Real IRA are not included under the peace treaty, and are not on a ceasefire.

amacachi

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

However there is still 5,000 British soldiers garrisoned in the north of Ireland. This will always be highly contentious and unacceptable to many people regardless of whatever international agreements exist.

I find many things offensive or unacceptable, is it acceptable for me to shoot anyone who opposes my point of view?

Gruffalo

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Nothing revisionist in anything I've posted.
I guess 1998 was your (conveniently) dozy year after all.

The people of the North voted on the Good Friday Agreement while the Republic voted to amend their constitution. Thats two different votes so it cannot be an All Ireland Vote. Perhaps 1998 was your dozy period.

Just in case you dont understand. The people of the 26 counties have never voted on the Good Friday Agreement.

Chonaic

Wouldnt be suprised if it was cowen who pulled the trigger to move attention off the economy and back to the northern issue.

Liam Byrne

Chonaic wrote: »

Wouldnt be suprised if it was cowen who pulled the trigger to move attention off the economy and back to the northern issue.

Jaysus, Chonaic.....conspiracy theory posts like that will make TomRooney seem reasonable and sane! :eek:

Erin Go Brath

amacachi wrote: »

I find many things offensive or unacceptable, is it acceptable for me to shoot anyone who opposes my point of view?

If you shoot and kill someone who opposes your point of view and are found guilty you will go to jail, exactly the same as what will happen to the culprits of the shooting if they are found. If a British soldier killed someone they would most likely not do any jail time. Bloody Sunday Derry 1972 being an example of an indiscrimate British Army killing spree with nobody brought to justice. This to me is why British occupation of Ireland is more of a problem than many would like to acknowledge.

Dannyboy83

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

If you shoot and kill someone who opposes your point of view and are found guilty you will go to jail, exactly the same as what will happen to the culprits of the shooting if they are found. If a British soldier killed someone they would most likely not do any jail time. Bloody Sunday Derry 1972 being an example of an indiscrimate British Army killing spree with nobody brought to justice. This to me is why British occupation of Ireland is more of a problem than many would like to acknowledge.

I believe perpetrators on both sides should be brought to justice.

How does that excuse the actions of the RIRA?
Do you support their actions?
Do you agree with the murder of British soldiers?

Do you actively seek an end to the Peace Process?

Do you actively seek violent retaliation by the Loyalists on our doorstep?

Do you agree they have the upper hand and moral high ground as a result of the RIRA?

Do you actively seek a return to hostilities on all sides and the resultant opression and interogation of innocent civilians of a Catholic or Nationalist background?