psychology or psychotherapy?

contenttypes

Hi guys,Hoping for a bit of advice.... cos i'm feeling like i need serious doses of either at the mo trying to figure out what to do...I'm looking at the degree in Psychology with Open Uni and then trying to get into MA counselling pscyholgy or Ma cognitive behaviourial with UCC. ORalso looking at Foundation & then Msc with PCI in Counselling & Psychotherapy....I've just done an intro to forensic psych and absolutely loved it but realise no career prospects in Ireland with it unless you've got about 8 years and can go to UK etc for placements... so the 2 options above are my problem...From an employment or setting up as an individual basis (i.e any way that i can work in these fields) which would be a better option? Please please help!!!

eth0_

The PCI course doesn't say that it's PSI or BPS accredited...so I would avoid.

LilMrsDahamsta

AFAIK the Cog/Beh MA in UCC isn't running any time soon.

taztastic

Presumably you'll be starting with the degree regardless. Unless I am very much mistaken doing a foundation and advanced course in counselling and psychotherapy will not qualify you to work as a psychologist in the majority of settings and when registration comes in it would be a big disadvantage.

contenttypes

Tanx for the replies guys, really appreciate it.

I know the PCI isn't regulated with PSI or BPS however when it comes to the counselling aspect with psychotherapy in Ireland PCI told me that they are registered with IACP which apparently is all that is needed to practice as a counsellor/psychotherapist in Ireland?

I understand that the Psychology degree then whatever postgrad is bringing me down a different path and I would not be a psychologist with the PCI course, however I am trying to figure out which is more viable to actually work in for the rest of my life!! Counselling Psychology & Counselling Psychotherapy seem to be similiar from what I have read except for your practicing titles( I'm maybe thinking the difference is that psychologist can diagnose mental prob/disorder etc & then treat whereas the Psychotherapist can only treat with talk-therapy)??! Or so I was told by PCI....

Please ignore my ignorance if I'm totally wrong on what I say! Finding clear cut info hard to find!

Thanks again for any light you can shed....

Odysseus

The PCI and the pratical side of the training will qualify you as a psychotherapist and will gain you entery into various conselling and psychotherapy bodies. That is it, you can work as a therapist in various settings.

My BA and MA are psychoanalytic that gains me entry into APPI and as I specialise in addictive disorders I'm also a member of the IAAAC. This is different to PSI recognition.

My advise now to anyone looking at working in a psychotherapeutic setting is to study psychology up to Masters level in the long run it will open more doors for you. Saying that from what I have seen of the PCI course its a good solid psychotherapeutic qualification, but your a psychotherapist not a psychologist. Hope that helps a little and best of luck with whatever you choose.

catussa

hi imageworks

I have applied for the course in PCI. I also thought about doing Psychology, but can only do part-time and work full-time and unfortunately no college offers Psychology as a part-time degree.
I guess most of the students (even if they are interested in Psychotherapy) do a Psychology degree and then do a Master or Diplom or any other qualification in Counselling/Psychotherapy, I guess that is the best way and gives you the best qualification AND keeps you the doors open to choose what exactly you want to do.
Now the good thing about PCI is that, as you mentioned, they are accredited by IACP AND the degree you get from them is a University Degree (Middlesex University London), which enables you to apply for Masters in Irish Universities (having a university degree is one of the entry requirements). This is my plan by the way :rolleyes:.
If you can afford to study full-time, I would recommend you to do a bachelor degree in Psychology in one of the main Irish Universities and then think about further qualification in the field.

eth0_

catussa wrote: »

unfortunately no college offers Psychology as a part-time degree.

Where do you live? DBS do a part time psych degree, I think Maynooth do too, and I myself have been doing a BSc psych part-time for the past 5 years with the Open University!

catussa

Hi Etho

I live in Dublin and you are right, DBS offers a degree program. Should have pointed out that I meant "no university offers a part-time psychology degree program". Since I intend to do a master after my bachelor degree (in a university), I guess a Bachelor degree from a university would be a huge advantage, so DBS wouldn't be my first choice.
Is Open University distance learning?

sambuka41

It makes no difference where your under graduate is obtained as long as it is recognised by the PSI and you can qualify for graduate mambership you can go on to do masters in university.

DBS degree is very,very good! Psychoanalysis is a big feature which will help if you choose to do psychotherapy at masters level,means you wouldnt have to do a conversion course after.

catussa

It makes no difference where your under graduate is obtained as long as it is recognised by the PSI and you can qualify for graduate mambership you can go on to do masters in university.

Might be true for psychology Masters, but for example Trinity College requires for MSc Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy "Applications are invited from candidates who are graduates of recognised University courses, with a degree in Medicine or a 1st or 2nd class Honours degree in Psychology Social Studies or a related discipline."

Everything I heard about DBS is that the reputation of the Undergraduate and Postgraduate Business degrees is not very good, do not know about the Psychology Degree...

Odysseus

I revieved my BA and MA from DBS, both of my mine were psychoanalytic. I know of people with the same degree who gained entry into UCD Msc in psychoanalytic psychotherapy programme. I remember people who finished psychology were going on to psychology post grad courses in Trinity.

I would be surprise if you were binned from the Trinity Msc because your degree was from DBS, psychoanalysis is quite small in Ireland. I'm much more familiar with the UCD Msc apart from psychologists, there is generally a wide range of other professions ranging from medics to social workers. Clinical experience is generally vital in gaining access to these courses, in my understanding. I would imagine its the same in Trinity.

I could be wrong but I think that you are reading to deeply into the word university, and ruling out DBS because its a college. If it psychology not psychotherapy you want to go with, its PSI membership and some form of clinical experience that are the critical issues.

hotspur

Do we have any information on the current state of the Health and Social Care Professionals Council's attitude to regulating counsellors and psychotherapists? I know what if the proposals of the group of accrediting organisations were implemented it would render most current training inadequate for statutory accreditation. Here is a link to their proposal:
http://www.psychotherapy-ireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/download-registration-of-psychological-therapies-submission-september-2008.doc

Note that the grandfathering for current existing practitioners sets a minimum of 5 years of supervised clinical practice. This is pretty steep. I think it would mean practically everyone having done training outside of a year Masters / Doctorate in a university in the recent past would no longer be qualified to call themselves a counsellor, psychotherapist, or the new proposed title of psychological therapist. Which leaves people currently considering training in a bit of a quandary, particularly if you already have the undergraduate degree.

Of course if only the university postgraduate courses counted we would soon have a bad shortage of counsellors and psychotherapists because they admit so few people. I'm all for upholding rigorous standards for those working with people who are suffering from mental health problems, but the occupational protectionism of admitting so few people to train like with clinical psychology is a profoundly negative thing I think.

auerillo

it seems "counselling" has now been renamed "physho therapy", possibly because counselling was in danger with becoming synomonous with middle class women looking all concerned and being ineffective. I'm not aware of any serious studies which show any benefit of counselling, and there are studies which show that counselling after a traumatic event seems to have no effect compared to having no counselling.

Valmont

auerillo wrote: »

it seems "counselling" has now been renamed "physho therapy",

No it hasn't, what gave you that idea?

auerillo wrote: »

I'm not aware of any serious studies which show any benefit of counselling

Maybe that's because you haven't actually read any of them.

auerillo

Valmont wrote: »

No it hasn't, what gave you that idea?



Maybe that's because you haven't actually read any of them.

You are right and I look forward to you giving me some linke here to properly carried out double blind studies, open to peer review, which give evidence either way.

Please note anecdotal evidence or non independent double blind studies are not evidence, but are anecdote, and as such are not acceptable as evidence.

Valmont

auerillo wrote: »

You are right and I look forward to you giving me some linke here to properly carried out double blind studies, open to peer review, which give evidence either way. Please note anecdotal evidence or non independent double blind studies are not evidence, but are anecdote, and as such are not acceptable as evidence.

Clever trick but the burden of proof is on you in this situation as you were the one damning an entire, empirically verified, realm of psychology. Can you extend your argument beyond your uninformed opinions? You also know nothing about the scientific method if you think that a double blind study is the only form of evidence. Please don't post such comments if you don't actually know what you're talking about.

auerillo

Valmont wrote: »

Clever trick but the burden of proof is on you in this situation as you were the one damning an entire, empirically verified, realm of psychology. Can you extend your argument beyond your uninformed opinions? You also know nothing about the scientific method if you think that a double blind study is the only form of evidence. Please don't post such comments if you don't actually know what you're talking about.

You made the claim that there was plenty of evidence, withouth giving any references to where we might find it. When you are asked for it, you seem unable to produce it.

If you have evidence which is not double blind, then produce that too. lets have a look at the evidence you mention.

Myksyk

Here, here. You really could go on all night with this but you can search yourself methinks.

Valmont

auerillo wrote: »

You made the claim that there was plenty of evidence, withouth giving any references to where we might find it. When you are asked for it, you seem unable to produce it.

You use very misleading argumentation methods. You made the original comment regarding the inefficacy of counselling and as such, the burden of proof is on you to produce evidence supporting this. Trying to switch the burden of proof onto me is a clever trick and one which I am aware of:

"Necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, "the necessity of proof lies with he who complains." (aka you)The burden of proof, therefore, usually lies with the party making the new claim." Your new claim being the outlandish one that counselling does not actually work.

An area of study such as counselling psychology does not exist due to one or a few defining studies, it is a result of scientific induction, that is, many, many smaller studies regarding the efficacy of various counselling methods contributed to establish the subject itself over a long period of time. An excellent starting point for your reading would be the Journal of Counseling Psychology, an APA, peer reviewed journal.

Also, an independent double blind study is absolutely impossible to conduct with counselling techniques and if that much is not obvious to you, it further unsubstantiates your original claim.

auerillo

Valmont wrote: »

You use very misleading argumentation methods. You made the original comment regarding the inefficacy of counselling and as such, the burden of proof is on you to produce evidence supporting this. Trying to switch the burden of proof onto me is a clever trick and one which I am aware of:

"Necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, "the necessity of proof lies with he who complains." (aka you)The burden of proof, therefore, usually lies with the party making the new claim." Your new claim being the outlandish one that counselling does not actually work.

An area of study such as counselling psychology does not exist due to one or a few defining studies, it is a result of scientific induction, that is, many, many smaller studies regarding the efficacy of various counselling methods contributed to establish the subject itself over a long period of time. An excellent starting point for your reading would be the Journal of Counseling Psychology, an APA, peer reviewed journal.

Also, an independent double blind study is absolutely impossible to conduct with counselling techniques and if that much is not obvious to you, it further unsubstantiates your original claim.

When I went to university, it was standard practive to ask for evidence. To simply make the assumption that we must accept anything works until it has been disproved, is the sort of arguments put forward by charlatans throughout the ages, and still used today as a serious arguement by, for example, the homoeopathic companies.

I really hate the way these discussions become polarised and we seem to end up trying to force each other into a corner, rather than enjoy the discussion for its own sake, and for the sake of trying to learn from each other.

Valmont

auerillo wrote: »

When I went to university, it was standard practive to ask for evidence.

I also thought it was standard practice to offer evidence when making bold claims.

auerillo wrote: »

To simply make the assumption that we must accept anything works until it has been disproved, is the sort of arguments put forward by charlatans throughout the ages, and still used today as a serious arguement by, for example, the homoeopathic companies.

I agree but this was not the assumption that I was making. I just finished an undergraduate course on counselling psychology and as such am aware of the evidence pointing to its' efficacy.

auerillo wrote: »

I really hate the way these discussions become polarised and we seem to end up trying to force each other into a corner, rather than enjoy the discussion for its own sake, and for the sake of trying to learn from each other.

I agree but you made a bold claim in a psychology forum populated by posters who know a great deal about these things. It wasn't really a discussion either as you just said you didn't think counselling worked and then asked me to provide you with the evidence you should have looked up yourself before posting in the first place.

auerillo

Valmont wrote: »

I also thought it was standard practice to offer evidence when making bold claims.



I agree but this was not the assumption that I was making. I just finished an undergraduate course on counselling psychology and as such am aware of the evidence pointing to its' efficacy.



I agree but you made a bold claim in a psychology forum populated by posters who know a great deal about these things. It wasn't really a discussion either as you just said you didn't think counselling worked and then asked me to provide you with the evidence you should have looked up yourself before posting in the first place.

You are right that it was tactless of me to make such a sweeping statement. Curiously I also have a friend who has just finished an undergraduate course in psychotherapy and is currently doing a masters (or at least some higher qualification) in it. She and I argue about it often, and have had some interesting and illuminating discussions.

I have also know other counsellors who gave up because they judged themselves to be frustrated by their lack of progress, particularly in school or university situations and mainly because they judged that what was needed was family therapy, but they could only see the one member who was in school or college, and the family were often impossible to include.

Of course I don't think therapy may not be beneficial, but thats not the same thing as saying it will be. I know a counsellor who told a woman dying of cancer that her cancer was brought on by her feelings of resentment towards her mother, causing her much distress in her final days. The counsellor may have bene correct, but no marks at all for tact or timing.

Very often therapy is a good thing, and if it helps us find some insight then that's probably a good thing. Although I say that with caution as not everyone is ready to have insight or wants it, but on the whole of course its a good thing.

Apologies if I came over a bit strong, and I wish you all the best with your chosen career, and hope it also brings you many happy and rewarding times.

hotspur

auerillo wrote: »

Please note anecdotal evidence or non independent double blind studies are not evidence, but are anecdote, and as such are not acceptable as evidence.

auerillo wrote: »

Curiously I also have a friend who has just finished an undergraduate course in psychotherapy

auerillo wrote: »

I have also know other counsellors who gave up because

auerillo wrote: »

I know a counsellor who told a woman dying of cancer

Epic fail.

auerillo

hotspur wrote: »

Epic fail.

Epic Nit Pick !

Geoffy

Hey i'm in a similar boat, was thinking of going to either DCU for their Counselling and Psychotherapeutic Practice part time degree(possibly leading on to a masters in psychotherapy), or the course they accredit at Turning Point, a 4 year MSc and Graduate Diploma in Integrative Counselling and Psychotherapy. Can anyone spot the differences between these courses?? they certainly seem very similar
I've also just finished a degree, totally unrelated, but I want to pursue counselling as a profession, it's just there are an overwhelming number of choices, this seems to be the best. I was considering a HDip in Trinity or DCU, but I have to have my degree at time of application (which has passed), and I won't get it till the summer, meaning I would have to wait until next year before I apply, and even then, there is no guarantee...
. To keep my doors open, does anyone think it would be worth it to do an Open University degree in Psychology while doing one of the above DCU courses? that would mean i could build up clinical experience while doing the part time courses, and still have the qualifications if i decide to enter into a more psychological realm as opposed to psychotherapy. How would the OU degree stand up if I wanted to do further studies in, say, Trinity or DCU?
Any ideas?

hotspur

I think I recall that DCU's course is specialised for couples therapy. The OU psychology degree will be fine for postgrad courses as it is recognised by the BPS and so PSI. But one of the conversion courses in TCD or UCD seem like a better idea than a whole new degree.

You currently don't need a psychology degree to enter most of the counselling / psychotherapy courses. However unless I am mistaken the Turning Point and DCU courses require postgraduate experience working in the counselling field.

Geoffy

yeah i called them today, they say either 5 years of postgrad experience, or, under exceptional circumstances, personal experience.

DCU now has a course called Counselling & Psychotherapeutic Practice, but i would need to complete a one semester access course to be eligible.
TCD and UCD only offer higher diplomas, which require one to have their degree at the time of application, so I would have to wait a year (as I will be getting my degree this august). it's a two year intensive psychology course essentailly as i understand it. so either i wait a year and apply without any guaranteed success, or apply to do a full undergraduate degree enrolling in september in UCD. with fees coming in at least there will be less people applying... either seem equally inconvenient.

So it seems I should apply for the DCU access course and the UCD undegrad and hope i get into one of them... but finishing a degree in UCD at the moment is making me feel that the prospect of another 3 years is pretty daunting

unless anyone can shoot some ideas out there.

hotspur

Check out the links I provided in the thread below. Remember counsellling / psychotherapy currently has no statutory licensing and accreditation in Ireland. It is accredited by various organisations. What this means is that while it is natural for you as a soon to be UCD graduate to think that the universities are the way to go it is not currently necessary as such. It should be but it isn't.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055528012

pandapatrol

Could someone help me out. I have a degree in Business and Marketing and was interested in doing the conversion course in Psychology with The Open University. I was wondering if the Psychology qualification offered by OU is recognised in the Republic? Also what is the outlook for Psychology graduates? Any help would be great. Also does anyone know any other good conversion courses out there that can be done through distance learning (at least 50% of course)? You can email me at johnaglynn@yahoo.com