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Recovery in 7 years???

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    #62
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Godge wrote: »
    particularly the one done by the international council for nurses, I guess an international trade union for nurses!!

    not really tbh. More of an associative body. The studies they're quoting aren't all done by them though.

    The bigger point I was trying to make though was that other countries use other jobs to negate the need for as many nurses. If we followed that model, then I'd agree we'd need less nurses, but as we stand now in this country, nurses and docs are doing many things that could be shifted off them. These are things that could actually enhance the role of the nurse, and I'd be very supportive of some of them.


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    #63
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    a lot of these roles are not at the lower end of the scale, and are actually managerial in nature as opposed to being just admin/secretarial in nature. There would certainly be some that could be swapped, and others that could be streamlined too.

    Using my earlier analogy though, if we were talking about engineers here, you'd want a senior engineer overseeing the bridge building project much the same way you'd want a senior nurse overseeing the care of patients


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    #64
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    The bigger point I was trying to make though was that other countries use other jobs to negate the need for as many nurses. If we followed that model, then I'd agree we'd need less nurses, but as we stand now in this country, nurses and docs are doing many things that could be shifted off them. These are things that could actually enhance the role of the nurse, and I'd be very supportive of some of them.

    It would also mean job cuts though, and the unions aren't exactly pro-shrinking of their constituent group.


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    #65
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    not really tbh. More of an associative body. The studies they're quoting aren't all done by them though.

    The bigger point I was trying to make though was that other countries use other jobs to negate the need for as many nurses. If we followed that model, then I'd agree we'd need less nurses, but as we stand now in this country, nurses and docs are doing many things that could be shifted off them. These are things that could actually enhance the role of the nurse, and I'd be very supportive of some of them.

    I agree that we should follow the model whereby highly skilled jobs should be performed by highly skilled professionals like nurses and doctors, and other unskilled jobs should be left to lesser skilled and lesser paid employees, thus reducing the numbers of nurses required.

    The biggest obstacle to this is the INO. They have prevented the off-loading of unskilled tasks to unskilled employees and thereby prevented the saving of money that the health service desperately needs. It is too glib, as many have done, to say management is to blame. Every nurse, through their membership of the INO (or SIPTU) have made heir own contribution.


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    #66
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    nesf wrote: »
    It would also mean job cuts though, and the unions aren't exactly pro-shrinking of their constituent group.

    well seeing as it would take probably 5 years to get this up and running, we could just train less nurses, then natural wastage would take care of it.

    We could look at encouraging nurses to move out of the hospital sector and into the primary care setting. We really need to change our focus to community based healthcare, with prevention and treatment at home being the norm. A reallocation of resources might actually take care of a lot of it.


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    #67
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    well seeing as it would take probably 5 years to get this up and running, we could just train less nurses, then natural wastage would take care of it.

    Considering the rate that we've been expanding the number of nurses I'd say the age profile isn't very amenable to a major reduction from 5 years of natural wastage.


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    #68
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    you'd be very surprised, plus a lot leave very soon after starting. I'd actually be very interested to see those figures. but in my experience this number is quite high. which then raises the question why are we spending so much training these nurses, only for them to lave the profession within a few years!


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    #69
    HashSlinging
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭HashSlinging


    Recovery as in what, we wont see a full recovery to what we had for about 20 years... at least.. there will be a short rise over the next 18 months and then all hell will break loose... I'm not prepared for it.. is anyone.


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    #70
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    well seeing as it would take probably 5 years to get this up and running, we could just train less nurses, then natural wastage would take care of it.

    We could look at encouraging nurses to move out of the hospital sector and into the primary care setting. We really need to change our focus to community based healthcare, with prevention and treatment at home being the norm. A reallocation of resources might actually take care of a lot of it.


    We don't have time or money for that. The public finances will not allow us that time. One of the unfortunate consequences of the FF failure to reform public services over the last 15 years is that the adjustment is going to have to be difficult, swift and hard on those losing out. the days of natural wastage, voluntary early retirements and promoting the problem away are gone. The danger is that they are about to be replaced by compulsory redundancy at costs that are affordable to the state but with terms that unons will find very hard to swallow. A recipe for industrial strife.


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    #71
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    not really tbh. More of an associative body. The studies they're quoting aren't all done by them though.

    The bigger point I was trying to make though was that other countries use other jobs to negate the need for as many nurses. If we followed that model, then I'd agree we'd need less nurses, but as we stand now in this country, nurses and docs are doing many things that could be shifted off them. These are things that could actually enhance the role of the nurse, and I'd be very supportive of some of them.

    How much do the other jobs cost and how much would the nurses strikes cost, the same nurses who who are looking for more responsibility,
    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    well seeing as it would take probably 5 years to get this up and running, we could just train less nurses, then natural wastage would take care of it.

    We could look at encouraging nurses to move out of the hospital sector and into the primary care setting. We really need to change our focus to community based healthcare, with prevention and treatment at home being the norm. A reallocation of resources might actually take care of a lot of it.

    Would it save money? Reallocation is SOOOO last year.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #72
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Godge wrote: »
    That shows a complete lack of understanding of the serious problems of the Irish public sector. Do you realise that we have more children per capita diagnosed with special needs than anywhere else in the world?

    But probably more administrators. Cut the admins, leave the SNA's if possible.

    Oh wait, I hear Unions protesting!
    Godge wrote:
    The vast majority is genuine but there is something wrong with the system that has brought us from a point of complete under-provision to a situation where we are over-providing in a number of areas but still under-providing in others.

    SNA'S?
    Godge wrote:
    The HSE is a mess but nurses and the INO, junior doctors and the IMO, consultants and the IHCA are as much if not more to blame than the middle management. The problems with middle management were caused by Mary Harney giving in to IMPACT.

    Or losing the will to live as seems to be a regular occurrence with Health.
    Godge wrote:

    One example is two-teacher rural primary schools with nine pupils while urban schools just outside DEIS areas struggle.

    Have to agree, that day and age is over. A decent school transport system would help to offset the cost for parents though.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #73
    Unpossible
    Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭Unpossible


    gurramok wrote: »
    Does anyone notice a parallel?

    Someone mentioned Finland. Yes, Finland had a massive housing bubble which nearly destroyed their economy in the early 90s. (like Ireland is now)

    Now, that country is No.1 in europe as a place to invest and innovate. Maybe just maybe we could do the same and emerge as an even stronger national economy in a few years time.(govt policy dependent of course :D)
    Personally I hope so, but they already had a high tax welfare state before their bust afaik.


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