Should Ireland rejoin the Commonwealth?

partyguinness

Fratton Fred wrote: »

its irrelevant to this debate, but a link would be nice.

i didn't know there was a chancellor in the US.

Please no more...I am embarressed for you..:o

partyguinness

Fratton Fred wrote: »

which is something Ireland can do, if it joins. the Queen is invited to be the symbolic head of the commenwealth and has no rights over the member countries. The Secretary general is currently Indian, who succeeded a Kiwi.



You keep telling yourself that mate, if it makes you feel better



what the **** has any of that got to do with the commonwealth?

I do now see your problem with joining though, it is more a chip on your shoulder with britain and your own prejudices than anything to do with the commonwealth.

Do yourself a favour and read post #45..that might bring you up to speed...

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

It was a device to withdraw from Empire with the delusion of dignity. It's members are united only in having been invaded by a Foreign power. They do not act as a political block. On the few occassions they develop a joint position, the British feel free to ignore them. The EU, though a flawed beast, is a far far more egalitarian grouping than this relic.

to an extent, yes it is. it is probably better than the alternatives.

Nodin wrote: »

......because no-one on the continent can grasp the concept of "exchange rate"? Silly talk. Britain is in a worse state than many of the EU nations.

like who?

partyguinness wrote: »

Please no more...I am embarressed for you..:o

well educate me then, send me a link to where Germany is being begged by the UK to bail it out.

Fratton Fred

partyguinness wrote: »

Do yourself a favour and read post #45..that might bring you up to speed...

you don't want to join the commonwealth because of Pakistan and India in Kashmir?

OK.....

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

partyguinness wrote: »

No I did not lliken a lack of Irish Nationalism to self hating...it was a question re citizenhsip and the lack of control thereof...my post related to his moaning about not being able to control his (Irish) citizenship with the implication that joining the Commonwealth he could take up British citizenship.

Then what were you likening self hating when you said "Oh dear..the "I am a self hating Irish man" forum is that way ---->>"? Why type it then? the rest of your post seems to be more anti-Brit than pro-Irish. "Post colonial clap trap"? "Reassuring Unionists"? "Giving them one-third of the tricolour"?

But, and let me get this right....you dont care what context I meant it in.....now you have just proved and admitted my last point..you have blantantly decided to take me out of context and completely misrepresent my post to back up our own point. You are in fact arguing with yourself...lol:pac::pac:

It was quoted alone because it doesn't fit with the rest of your post, not because it's out of context.

What age are you?

Does it matter?

ps Do yourself a favour and learn the meaning of the word "rhetoric"..;)

Rhetoric - (in writing or speech) the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast.

thebman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you don't want to join the commonwealth because of Pakistan and India in Kashmir?

OK.....

Sorry but the people in favor of joining the commonwealth have yet to put forward real points on what we will benefit from it other than easy access for people who don't want to be Irish citizens to gain citizenship elsewhere.

I don't see the benefit. We are in the EU and already have access to a massive market that 4 million people can't hope to run out of people to sell their products to.

Joining another union of nations is not going to help us significantly, economically IMO. We already have a special relationship with Britain anyway so why do we need to join the Commonwealth? Britain is perfectly willing to work closely with us outside of it.

partyguinness

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you don't want to join the commonwealth because of Pakistan and India in Kashmir?

OK.....

The point being highlighted is the hypocracy of the so called Commonwealth...:rolleyes:..honestly, you are tiresome..are you in a nursing home?;)

Educate you?...I am afraid that is your responsibilty...I am not your teacher..:pac:

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

like who?

Germany and France. Britain will be the hardest Western state hit, more than likely, with ourselves not far behind.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/imf-predicts-uk-will-be-hardest-hit-1518588.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/mar/06/houseprices-housingmarket
http://www.silobreaker.com/DocumentReader.aspx?Item=5_2262160671741313024

acontadino

if that was to happen i would leave ireland in a flash. the EU for all its problems is where the future is at for Ireland.

I just wish UK either adopts Euro, or just leaves EU altogether.

oscarBravo

partyguinness wrote: »

The point being highlighted is the hypocracy of the so called Commonwealth...:rolleyes:..honestly, you are tiresome..are you in a nursing home?;)

Educate you?...I am afraid that is your responsibilty...I am not your teacher..:pac:

I strongly suggest you either raise the quality of your contributions, or refrain from contributing.

Several others could do with taking a deep breath before posting, too.

Fratton Fred

thebman wrote: »

Sorry but the people in favor of joining the commonwealth have yet to put forward real points on what we will benefit from it other than easy access for people who don't want to be Irish citizens to gain citizenship elsewhere.

I don't see the benefit. We are in the EU and already have access to a massive market that 4 million people can't hope to run out of people to sell their products to.

Joining another union of nations is not going to help us significantly, economically IMO. We already have a special relationship with Britain anyway so why do we need to join the Commonwealth? Britain is perfectly willing to work closely with us outside of it.

There is no real benefit. Irish citizens have been offered the same status as commonwealth citizens for years now and it really only benefits the poorer nations (maybe in 12 months or so it may help then:D) and the aussies who get to pick up lots of medals at the commonwealth games.

The commonwealth does do a lot of work in poorer countries with regards aid and development work, a lot of which is performed by the Canadians and Australians.

It does piss me off when people see the commonwealth and think that joinging it would be like rejoining the empire, but a lot of those people still think we are living in 916, so it doesn't really surprise me.

partyguinness

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Then what were you likening self hating when you said "Oh dear..the "I am a self hating Irish man" forum is that way ---->>"? Why type it then? the rest of your post seems to be more anti-Brit than pro-Irish. "Post colonial clap trap"? "Reassuring Unionists"? "Giving them one-third of the tricolour"?


It was quoted alone because it doesn't fit with the rest of your post, not because it's out of context.


Does it matter?





Rhetoric - (in writing or speech) the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast.

To be honest as you continue to misrepresent my posts I am not going to waste any more of my time with you unless you are actually going to make a valid point about the topic in hand.

partyguinness

oscarBravo wrote: »

I strongly suggest you either raise the quality of your contributions, or refrain from contributing.

Several others could do with taking a deep breath before posting, too.

*yawn*:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

partyguinness wrote: »

Educate you?...I am afraid that is your responsibilty...I am not your teacher..:pac:

so you can't find me a link to something "The dogs on the street know"? are you fibbing...just a little bit?

Nodin wrote: »

Germany and France. Britain will be the hardest Western state hit, more than likely, with ourselves not far behind.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/imf-predicts-uk-will-be-hardest-hit-1518588.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/mar/06/houseprices-housingmarket
http://www.silobreaker.com/DocumentReader.aspx?Item=5_2262160671741313024

Stop the press, the outlook is bleak.

Germany are probably in a better state then the UK, but they will be dragged down by the eurozone countries, like Ireland, Holland and Spain, who actually are begging Germany for help.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

partyguinness wrote: »

To be honest as you continue to misrepresent my posts I am not going to waste any more of my time with you unless you are actually going to make a valid point about the topic in hand.

...well then you need to represent them better yourself and actually think about what you're writing. My points have been made, yours has not been defended. Like others, it's been met with :pac: , :rolleyes: and 'profound' statements like

partyguinness wrote: »

*yawn*:rolleyes:

in order to pretend that you have some sort of moral highground as if your word is beyond reproach.

Sorry, but that's not the case.

partyguinness

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is no real benefit. Irish citizens have been offered the same status as commonwealth citizens for years now and it really only benefits the poorer nations (maybe in 12 months or so it may help then:D) and the aussies who get to pick up lots of medals at the commonwealth games.

The commonwealth does do a lot of work in poorer countries with regards aid and development work, a lot of which is performed by the Canadians and Australians.

It does piss me off when people see the commonwealth and think that joinging it would be like rejoining the empire, but a lot of those people still think we are living in 916, so it doesn't really surprise me.

If there is no real benefit then why join?

Seems like a pointless exercise?

Considering its origins, is it any wonder that people see it akin to rejoininig the Empire (I would like to add that Ireland never joined the "Empire" it was forced upon the country so to say we would rejoin is slightly dubious)

Fratton Fred

partyguinness wrote: »

If there is no real benefit then why join?

Seems like a pointless exercise?

from an irish perspective, I would say the only benefit is extending an olive branch to the unionists.

partyguinness wrote: »

Considering its origins, is it any wonder that people see it akin to rejoininig the Empire (I would like to add that Ireland never joined the "Empire" it was forced upon the country so to say we would rejoin is slightly dubious)

Ireland was never actually part of the empire, but that is a different subject.

There are well over one billion people who are happy to be in the commonwealth plus the ones who were never part of the "Empire".

What makes Ireland so different?

Communicationb

surely there is a better argument than "well if its good enough for them then it should be good enough for us"

Fratton Fred

Communicationb wrote: »

surely there is a better argument than "well if its good enough for them then it should be good enough for us"

That is not a reason to join, that is a reason not to slag it off.

As I said, the only reason I can see for Ireland to join is symbolic.

T runner

Fratton Fred wrote: »

From an irish perspective, I would say the only benefit is extending an olive branch to the unionists.

That is not a good enough reason for doing something that is clearly wrong.
We don't need to go back to the dark ages now just to pacify unionism.

Ireland was never actually part of the empire, but that is a different subject.

Before the Act of Union surely it would have been counted by the British as a colony of the British empire?

There are well over one billion people who are happy to be in the commonwealth plus the ones who were never part of the "Empire".

I very much doubt that.

What makes Ireland so different?

Even last century Ireland realised Empire, commonwealth etc was a bit last century. We were the first member of the commonwealth to derive full citizenship for our citizens before we left.
[/QUOTE]

I guess we dont like being subservient to other countries after our bad experiences. Britain doesnt particularly like being subservient to other countries either but doesnt seem to have a problem with the principle of subservience when they are the controlling state.

The whole principle is flawed.

Soldie

There seems to be some confusion emanating from some posters as to what the Commonwealth is, and what it represents. Here is a column published by the BBC yesterday, which gives a brief timeline of the Commonwealth and draws attention to the differences in its goals and activities between now and the time of its inception.

The biggest misnomer seems to be that the Commonwealth is a symbol of oppression, and joining it would be a betrayal of our history, and a sign of submission. Naively, I had no intention for this thread to be hi-jacked by armchair republicans putting forth a straw man argument. The Commonwealth regards each country as having an equal status, and indeed, the current secretary-general and chairperson are Indian and Ugandan, respectively. It is not run by the UK, nor is the UK considered as being more important than any other members.

To clarify; the Commonwealth is an international forum featuring some of the bigger economies in the world (such as the Australia, Canada, India, the UK, etc.), and its goals and activities involve the promotion of democracy, free trade, individual liberty, etc. Again, it is an international forum, not a club for waving Union Jacks and eating prawn sandwiches.

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily agree nor disagree with rejoining the Commonwealth - I merely thought it was fitting to start a discussion on Commonwealth Day, on the merits of Ireland rejoining a forum it left 60 years ago.

Our man in Havana

A good enough reason. It won't effect 99.9999% of the population.

Fratton Fred

T runner wrote: »

I guess we dont like being subservient to other countries after our bad experiences. Britain doesnt particularly like being subservient to other countries either but doesnt seem to have a problem with the principle of subservience when they are the controlling state.

The whole principle is flawed.

As Soldie has clerly pointed out, there is no question of subservience, all members are equal. Of the members countries, many have their own crowned heads of states and i believe 32 are republics.

Now that you understand the commonwealth, tell me what is flawed with it?

thebman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

from an irish perspective, I would say the only benefit is extending an olive branch to the unionists.



Ireland was never actually part of the empire, but that is a different subject.

There are well over one billion people who are happy to be in the commonwealth plus the ones who were never part of the "Empire".

What makes Ireland so different?

Well we are already (majority of people) happy to be part of another union, the EU for one thing.

Britain is also in the EU but is euroskeptic in many ways that Ireland is not.

The Irish want to be part of the EU not the Commonwealth. There isn't a significant benefit to being part of both so why bother? I trust the EU with our economy and want them to have more control over it TBH. I want that to be the future for Ireland.

If joining the Commonwealth would solve our current economic woes, I'd be for it but it won't that I can see anyway. As for pleasing Unionists, I don't think it would make any difference to the way they see Ireland or the Irish.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Stop the press, the outlook is bleak.,

...and bleaker for Britain than for others. Despite the commonwealth.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Germany are probably in a better state then the UK,

I know. Thats what I said. The idea that "sterling" is some form of talisman against whats happening is essentially magical thinking, probably coming from the same crowd that said it would collapse in disaster years ago wanting to be proved right for not wanting to join.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

but they will be dragged down by the eurozone countries

If it did happen it would be 'by other Eurozone countries'. The DM is no longer extant.

However its more likely they will give aid in this time of need, and survive with far less social turmoil than here or Britain. Thats what the EU is for, after all, mutual aid to avoid war and conflict, not wave around the ghost of Empire.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Holland

Theres no such country in the EU.

diverdriver

This and other threads always highlight people who are very confused about their Irish identity. People who seem to think that hating the Brits is being 'patriotic'. But wanting the best for your country and disliking what it has become is somehow unpatriotic and self hatred.

This country is in mess, in truth it's been a mess since we became independant. The British didn't do it, we did it to ourselves. A lot of people can't see it, years of anti British propaganda has seen to that. It suited the leaders of this country because it deflected a lot of criticism away from them. Until now that is.

What we should do is grow up as a people and try and have some pride in being Irish in a positive way rather than constant negative reinforcement. The Canadians, Aussies and New Zealanders seem well able to do it. Yet they had to invent their own identity. Our identity is as old as any in the world. I can point to a possible ancestor a thousand years ago, my family name was mentioned at the Battle of Clontarf (on the Irish side). Many of us can do the same. Yet we don't seem to know what to do with it other than to have a go at the Brits.

So we need to do what's best for the people of this country, whatever that might be. If joining the Commonwealth helps then so be it. If not, then we shouldn't. If your sole argument against joining is that it's British then you are not doing anyone a favour. It's the same for anything, we should do what's best for this country. Knee jerk anti Britishness has held us back for years. Move on for everyone's sake.

ChocolateSauce

We should rejoin.

turgon

It all comes down to the fact that many people dont define Irish culture as something of its own making, instead they just try to make it the culture that is not British.

Its an inferiority complex maybe. Certainly if all the Irish nationalists were really as confident in Ireland as they preach then they'd have no bother joining the commonwealth, because if Ireland is so great and strong how could it be in any way subverted by Britain?

Nodin

An opposition to something thats a legacy of Emprire is not nessecarily an "Irish" position. Opposition to Monarchy is not nessecarily an "Irish" position.

Fratton Fred wrote:

As Soldie has clerly pointed out, there is no question of subservience, all members are equal. Of the members countries, many have their own crowned heads of states and i believe 32 are republics.

..so we'll being seeing a female African monarch as 'symbolic' head when?

Kev_ps3

I would consider it, only if they gave back the north and apoligised for 800 years of rape and murder with the odd genocide thrown in;)