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** Police officer shot dead in Armagh
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Dannyboy83 wrote: »
Above all else, what puzzles me about the motive you assign to them is the fact that they planted a pipe bomb outside Sinn Fein's HQ, why would they do that?
They didn't.0 -
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The use of the term 'Crown Forces' caught my eye here, its like something out of the history books, and you also say that wont condem the recent murders or the murderers, & that you agreed with what the Provo's did over the 35 years of the Troubles!
I am lost for words really, this is your mindset, its your consience, and its obviously the way you have been indoctrinated over the course of your life, and I feel sad for you really, I mean to say, you cant even see right from wrong, you dont see the sad loss of the Policemans family, or the greiving of the young Soldiers families, you cant see the murderers for what they are, in the same way as the rest of us can.
If we didnt know where you stood before on Terrorism, we certainly do now.
How sad that this mindset still exists in some.
Whats really sad is some peoples ignorance over the difference between indoctrination and socialisation, and to completely ignore the effect of their own socialising factors. Your aggresive behaviour and attempts to belittle and disparege nationalists/republicans and others beliefs shows us all of your own "indoctrination" to hate others more than attempting to portray others in a bad way0 -
I do find it quite amusing that people think the actions of the "old" IRA were somehow noble while what the Provos did was murder and terrorism.0
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Why? Basically the Rising was as a result of tiny minority, no more than a couple of hundred men deciding to take up arms in contravention to the wishes of the vast majority of the Irish people. More Irish people died in British uniform on the Somme in a week than died for the Republic throughout the past 100 years. How is it acceptable for the 1916 rebels to kill people off their own bat? Or is it just it was so long ago that you view it in a nostalgic sense instead of the bloodbath it actually was?
Because conscription was imminent.
If I raised my son and the Irish government tried to draft him to fight against the British or in Chad, I would take up arms against them myself.
Later, with regard to the actions of the auxilaries, the Tans, the burning of Cork, the murder of MacCurtain by the RIC, the murder of MacSweeney etc.
There was a blatantly oppressive muderous forces operating throughout the country.
I don't find any comparison between those times and today.
My family were evicted during the famine, and members fought in the flying columns. Major Percival shot my Grand Uncle's dog because he barked.
I don't see anything like this happening today.
If the British tried to draft Northern citizens to fight in Iraq, I would change my mind quickly.
At present, I don't see how they are being oppressed in any way.
They are just like the Taliban, trying to force their will on others. e.g. like conscripting people0 -
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Because conscription was imminent.
Conscription had nothing to do with it. The likes of Connolly and Pearse looked at consitutional politics within a UK framework with absolute contempt. The Rising was an assertion of Irish independence and the proclaiming of a Republic, it had nothing to do with conscription or anything else. Conscription only became a big deal in early 1918 anyway, that's when people started flooding the ranks of the Volunteers. According to Dan Breen the same people shagged off as soon as the threat of conscription was dropped.
The fact is the Rising was an action taken to proclaim a Republic the majority of people at the time didn't want or support.
Similarly the Provos today will argue til they're blue in the face that their campaign was caused by the lack of civil rights when in reality it was simply in the same tradition as every other independent action undertaken by Republicans.There was a blatantly oppressive muderous forces operating throughout the country.
After the Rising occurred and after the conflict was reignited when the likes of Breen decided to go out and shoot policemen because they felt enough wasn't being done. Up until then loads of Irish people were actually joining the British Army, and in far more multiples than they were joining Óglaigh na hÉireann. The British Army has always been the crudest manifestation of the occupation of Ireland. As I said, the Brits only send in the military when their police can't contain the Republican challenge to their presence here.My family were evicted during the famine, and members fought in the flying columns. Major Percival shot my Grand Uncle's dog because he barked.
I don't see anything like this happening today.
Of course you don't. You didn't see anything like that happening in 1915 either, it doesn't mean the country is any less occupied though.At present, I don't see how they are being oppressed in any way.
They are oppressed because Irish sovereignty continues to be denied and national self-determination ignored.0 -
FTA69
They are oppressed because Irish sovereignty continues to be denied and national self-determination ignored.
I disagree with a lot of what you've said, based on witness testimony given to me by people who were alive at the time (long since dead now tho).
Other bits I agree with.
Nevertheless, it does clarify your position.
Your are solely opposed to what you view as the occupation of Ireland by a foreign power. That is the be all and end all for you.
I guess that argument is already rendered defunct in my mind after the 19th constitutional amendment and the GFA.
I believe the territory is theirs as voted by us.
One day they'll join us, when they are ready and when they can parade through Patrick's Street and people will clap instead of trying to kill them.
I'm certain that will happen because despite all my families suffering at the hands of the British, I'm 1/4 anglo saxon.
My paternal grandmother was a descendent of planters during the Munster Plantation - the whole population seem to have integrated in West Cork a long time ago.
Maybe the bloody Northerners ought to come down here and see how we do it.
There are methodist churches, protestant cathedrals, church of Ireland & everything here and nobody gives a ****e, and today there were protestant people saluting the Tri-colour and saying its not just our flag but their flag too.
I expect the same thing will happen in the North of Ireland, eventually, in the future (maybe very,very distant future).
I suppose our views differ too strongly for me to learn anything further or to ever see eye-to-eye with the dissidents, but thanks for explaining your position anyway.
Cheers.
Dan0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »Conscription/World War 1 - have you heard of it?
Yes I did. I'm talking about the way the actions of the different IRAs are looked upon today.0 -
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Your are solely opposed to what you view as the occupation of Ireland by a foreign power. That is the be all and end all for you.
It's a main plank in my political belief, but Irish unity alone isn't the be all and end all of my politics either.I'm certain that will happen because despite all my families suffering at the hands of the British, I'm 1/4 anglo saxon
Yerrah, everyone can dig out a relative who got bate up by the Brits or evicted during the Famine etc. My family are Protestants anyway, Irish people are drawn from a variety of backgrounds.There are methodist churches, protestant cathedrals, church of Ireland & everything here and nobody gives a ****e, and today there were protestant people saluting the Tri-colour and saying its not just our flag but their flag too.
But sure we have our own f*cking eejits down here (Harris, Dudley Edwards) who'll insist that West Cork was "ethnically cleansed" of Prods by dastardly Republicans.I suppose our views differ too strongly for me to learn anything further or to ever see eye-to-eye with the dissidents, but thanks for explaining your position anyway.
No bother lad.0 -
The fact is the Rising was an action taken to proclaim a Republic the majority of people at the time didn't want or support.
Agreed. The 1916 rising was justified only after the fact. Much like support for a Sandista dictatorship will come with time. Its inevitable.Similarly the Provos today will argue til they're blue in the face that their campaign was caused by the lack of civil rights when in reality it was simply in the same tradition as every other independent action undertaken by Republicans.
Again, agreed. It didnt matter how beneficial or wonderful British rule was or wasnt. Attempts to link the Provo movement to the civil rights campaigns are simply historical revisionism.
The Provos were always deeply hostile to peaceful political movements, which implied compromise or recognition of the British state and totally uninterested in the views of the Irish people they claimed to be liberating.They are oppressed because Irish sovereignty continues to be denied and national self-determination ignored.
Do you extend national self-determination to any group that would claim it? As someone pointed out in a recent post I read on here, the true British occupation of Ireland isnt the British Army or the PSNI. Its the large group of people in Northern Ireland who view themselves as citizens of the UK - politically at least. Dont they have the right to self-determination? Is it possible for someone to retain an Irish identity that isnt linked to citizenship of the Irish Republic? Is it possible for someone to retain an Irish identity whilst being a citizen of the UK? Is there only one Irish identity, seperate to British citizenship, or is there multiple Irish identities?
Wouldnt they be oppressed if their right to self-determination was ignored and they were forced into a "United" Ireland? Nationalism and nationalist solutions wont relieve oppression in Northern Ireland.I don't think are pushing it away any farther than it already is, but they certainly aren't going to achieve one either. Only by becoming a grass-roots led, representative and relevant political movement in Ireland can Republicanism succeed. Accepting capitalism and the GFA won't lead to Irish unity, but neither will shooting people every few months. That's my position on the issue.
Its great to see youre taking a detached, strategical view on the futility of terrorism and murder. I can only hope youll evolve to take a moral view on it at some point.I do find it quite amusing that people think the actions of the "old" IRA were somehow noble while what the Provos did was murder and terrorism.
Im pretty consistent actually. I dont support the murder of unarmed Irish policemen regardless of what decade it occured in. Reports of the time [ which I have linked below] indicate the apparently random murder of civillians - hence the otherwise unexplained deep hostility of Dubliners to these Irish heros who were so eager for a bloodbath to drown out any possiblity of peaceful resolution of "the Irish question".
Id also find Larkins claimed willingess to murder his own children to be fairly disagreeable, regardless of him apparently being santised as a national hero. Lets face it, if he was willing to murder his own children what wouldnt he do to yours?0 -
It's a main plank in my political belief, but Irish unity alone isn't the be all and end all of my politics either
I asked you this before and never got a reply, as did another poster. You ignored reference to it in Dannyboys last post as well. We amended the constitution and the GFA was endorsed by a substantial majority both North and South of the border. You've previously discounted the ratification of the 1921 treaty as being coerced by the threat of war from Lloyd George. The main plank of your political belief, the notion that the occupation of the North continues today, has been overwhelmingly rejected by the democratic majority of people on this island.0 -
First Colin Duffy. I don't know one thing or another about this man. But I remember that there were plenty of PIRA men arrested over the years who were completely unconnected -to all appearances-to the 'movement' so all these 'political policing' claims are highly dubious to say the least. Are we to believe that the PSNI are so stupid that instead of trying to find the people who actually shot one of their own they prefer to arrest an innocent member of a miniscule,laughable grouping for some slight of the past? It seems supporters of these groups have a rather inflated idea of their own importance.
"They are oppressed because Irish sovereignty continues to be denied and national self-determination ignored. "
Here we go again.This ridiculous mixture of 19th century nationalism and vanguardist marxism-leninism that is Irish extreme republicanism. Apparently the Irish are oppressed even though they don't know that are oppressed, oddly enough. They are deluded, bought off, indoctrinated by the Church, the education system and the Media , suffering from false-consciousness and don't know what is in their true best interests etc etc etc. But only the true believers, the holders of the flame, know the truth and have the right to impose their will on the weak and foolish Irish who don't know what is good for them. We have been listening to this rubbish all our lives and it stinks now as bad as it ever did.
As for national self-determination. This is expressed every year by the people of Ireland in their actions by actively voting for parties that deny and reject this nonsense and by refusing to vote and support the anti-democratic groups like Eirigi,the Sovereignty committee, Republican Sinn Fein and all the rest of the irrelevant micro-groups. There is no "Irish Nation", no "national right to self-determination". These are airy nothings, ludicrous abstractions and they have reality only to the degree that they are given form by the actual wishes of actual living and breathing people.
"But one shouldn't discount the British establishment's profound hostility towards Irish separatism and its deep-seated commitment to anti-democratic unionism, all of which are continued manifestations of its age-old imperialist mindset. The British establishment would also be fearful of the radicalising effects of unity within Ireland. "
Aaah, this typical mixture of paranoia and delusions of self-importance so common in extremist Irish republicanism. Apparently there exists a shadowy "establishment" in Britain, grey eminences like the "illuminati" of legend,unrelated to the British political parties,leaders of opinion or business, Church or commentariat and who brood in secret eternally and unchanging, thinking up ways to obstruct and oppose the Irish. And radicalising Irish Unity? Ah, yes, the legend of the rainy atlantic Cuba of which the British are so frightened. Yeah, right...0 -
......national self-determination ignored.
Why the caveat - "national" - before "self-determination" ? We voted on the latter phrase without caveats, and that's what should be applied, not some biased or subtly adjusted version.
Also, you can't even use the phrase "national", because when it comes to Northern Ireland it probably means different things to different people.0 -
Whats really sad is some peoples ignorance over the difference between indoctrination and socialisation, and to completely ignore the effect of their own socialising factors.
Would you (Pandcoa) like to come back and argue your point?Your aggresive behaviour and attempts to belittle and disparege nationalists/republicans and others beliefs shows us all of your own "indoctrination" to hate others more than attempting to portray others in a bad way
My aggressiveness, my hate! How's that then? what did I say in posts 256/ 258/ 267 (to FTA69) that were so aggressive? Would you (Pandcoa) like to come back and explain your own personal views on the murders?
P.S. I'm sure FTA69 can fight his own battles, so it would be nice, (seeing as you have just jumped in & jumped out on his behalf), if you 'Pancoa' could come back and give us your own views on the three murders, instead of spouting off at my posts to FTA69.0 -
This reply will be brief due to the fact I'm suffering from a chronic case of DutchGolditis.First Colin Duffy. I don't know one thing or another about this man. But I remember that there were plenty of PIRA men arrested over the years who were completely unconnected -to all appearances-to the 'movement' so all these 'political policing' claims are highly dubious to say the least.
Fair enough, but as I said I've personal experience with the people in question and as such am fully convinced that Collie Duffy had nothing to do with the shooting in Craigavon. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't believe so.Are we to believe that the PSNI are so stupid that instead of trying to find the people who actually shot one of their own they prefer to arrest an innocent member of a miniscule,laughable grouping for some slight of the past? It seems supporters of these groups have a rather inflated idea of their own importance.
First of all Éirigi as an organisation has recieved plenty of harrasment from the Branch on both sides of the border, at all its meetings and events you will always see detectives either parked outside, filming proceedings etc. To suggest that this arrest is a continuation of that policy isn't laughable at all, and its perfectly likely that the cops just swooped on anyone they considered a prominent "dissident".As for national self-determination. This is expressed every year by the people of Ireland in their actions by actively voting for parties that deny and reject this nonsense
Oddly enough though that same political process to which you are alluding directly came about through the same primitive anti-democratic actions of the same Republicans you're giving out about. Similarly the same parties you're talking about aspire to Irish unity and directly commemorate events like the Rising.and by refusing to vote and support the anti-democratic groups like Eirigi
What's anti-democratic about Éirigi?Aaah, this typical mixture of paranoia and delusions of self-importance so common in extremist Irish republicanism. Apparently there exists a shadowy "establishment" in Britain, grey eminences like the "illuminati" of legend,unrelated to the British political parties,leaders of opinion or business, Church or commentariat and who brood in secret eternally and unchanging, thinking up ways to obstruct and oppose the Irish.
The same establishment actively told blatant lies to its own people in order to drag them into a war in Iraq, as I said the Brits fought a 25 year war in their country in order to maintain their presence here. I don't see that as an action of a country disinterested in Ireland.And radicalising Irish Unity? Ah, yes, the legend of the rainy atlantic Cuba of which the British are so frightened. Yeah, right...
Not necessaily radicalising of the Irish, but perhaps would encourage nationalist sentiment in other parts of the UK.0 -
And Murphy was the most prominent they could find?To suggest that this arrest is a continuation of that policy isn't laughable at all, and its perfectly likely that the cops just swooped on anyone they considered a prominent "dissident".
What has that got to do with anything?The same establishment actively told blatant lies to its own people in order to drag them into a war in Iraq…
So where is the net benefit in maintaining a presence in Northern Ireland?…as I said the Brits fought a 25 year war in their country in order to maintain their presence here. I don't see that as an action of a country disinterested in Ireland.0 -
Nationalist sentiment is as strong in Britain as it is in NI, the nationalists don't believe it is worth killing people for though.0
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"What's anti-democratic about Éirigi?"
What's democratic about it. Oh, yes I've heard of representatives from that organization saying things like "Personally, I am against violence....." but the caveat always is with these splinter groups that they don't have any problem with any Irish person who wants to resist crown forces etc.etc
"Oddly enough though that same political process to which you are alluding directly came about through the same primitive anti-democratic actions of the same Republicans you're giving out about. Similarly the same parties you're talking about aspire to Irish unity and directly commemorate events like the Rising."
They aspire to Irish unity by consent. And so..if an undemocratic act nearly a hundred years ago, in a different age and in a totally different context, started a train of events that led to Irish Independence, are we to be eternally held hostage to the notion that anti-democratic armed action is perpetually valid? That Independence only came about when the Insurgency was validated at the ballot box. And subsequently The Free State government had no problems crushing the irregulars in the name of democracy, as did De Valera when he crushed the IRA with severe methods. These actions are just as much models as 1916 was.
"The same establishment actively told blatant lies to its own people in order to drag them into a war in Iraq, as I said the Brits fought a 25 year war in their country in order to maintain their presence here. I don't see that as an action of a country disinterested in Ireland."
The British Government misled-intentionally or not, I don't know-it's own people. This still does'nt prove the existence of this so-called "establishment" which saw and sees the advent of Irish Unity as a greater threat to the UK than Nazis, Soviets or Islamists. Even when this struggle began, it existed in a totally different context; the cold war was going on. Post EU expansion,Post Soviet Union and Post 9/11 the world had changed immeasurably yet people like you still hold to this notion that Ireland has some extraordinary strategic value to Great Britain that she will never relinquish. I take the British at their word:that they have no selfish, strategic interest in the North.But then you believe that it isn't the British Government that rules Britain at all, it is their puppet masters,this mysterious "establishment". Maybe you are right. And maybe the Freemasons rule the EU,Obama is scheming to bring in a one-world government backed by Black Helicopters and Cowen takes his instructions from the Pope.
The fact is Eirigi,the 32 County Sovereignty committee, Republican Sinn Fein, Continuity IRA, RIRA and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all have'nt the support to get one County Councillor elected let alone a TD or MP, yet they presume to lecture the people of this island on what this nation is and how it should be governed! All these groups are is one bunch of aging fanatics living in the past,refusing to accept that the world has changed, another bunch of murderous malcontents trying to turn the people of Ireland against each other by violence and another bunch of ignorant,juvenile, hoodie and Celticshirt-wearing guttersnipes,whose main form of entertainment is throwing stones and petrol bombs. But more than that, RIRA thinks it's guns count for more than the wishes of people of Ireland. They are wrong. They are headed for the same historical rubbish-bin that people like Baader-Meinhof,The Red Brigades and the Spanish Carlists inhabit.0 -
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Would you (Pandcoa) like to come back and argue your point?
My aggressiveness, my hate! How's that then? what did I say in posts 256/ 258/ 267 (to FTA69) that were so aggressive? Would you (Pandcoa) like to come back and explain your own personal views on the murders?
P.S. I'm sure FTA69 can fight his own battles, so it would be nice, (seeing as you have just jumped in & jumped out on his behalf), if you 'Pancoa' could come back and give us your own views on the three murders, instead of spouting off at my posts to FTA69.
Not to go off topic much but I don't visit this forum as much as you so apologises for my horrendous negligence. I don't feel the need to defend FTA69 because I don't agree with some of his views or add much to this thread because I don't have much to add what has already been said but what really annoys me these days are people whose arguements on anything that are completely and ALWAYS politically motivated, you can't even turn off you have to say NI and the south have completely different cultures. Well if that isn't an admission of a complete lack of knowledge (or perhaps ignorance) of ALL the people in the north well I don't know what is, I'm lucky to get to spend a lot of time all over the south but I severly doubt your personal experiance in "the wee black north". What I don't like is generalisations of any people with liberally trown about phrases like "indoctrinated" or "black as the sole of your shoe" to either nationalist or unionist. Maybe if you occasionally turned off your constant "attack nationalist mentality" mode then you would shockingly find most nationalists/republicans/unionists are warm hearted people like anybody else, who like a lot of culturally heterogenous countries around the world have got off on the wrong foot and carry some suspicion towards one another. I refer your attitude to northerners on all threads which is basically to look down upon as if "intellectually inferior or unenlightened" to yourself
You call nationalists specifically "indoctrinated" but without going into any depth or evidence to back this up. This just says to me a lack of understanding between the difference of socialisation and indocrination which is how ideas are passed on forcefully and intentionally in order to shape ones views rather than unconsiously taking on the views of others wheather in the Media, family, peers, education or religion. And Family is the primary and perhaps the most important socialisation factor so if a nationalist or unionist family raises a child well then its only natural and most likely that for that child to grow up with similar nationalist or unionist views. Answer me this, I bet its a good chance your family didn't have any nationalist sendiments? Yet it annoys me how some people are completely bliss to how their views were shaped yet are quick to try and point out others. Well if the people of the north are "indocrinated" and you, who use more controversial language than a lot of us are surely "indoctrinated" aswell.
To your question which I know what your playing at, I felt a great amount of shame hearing of the killings and such an attact on the years of hard work all communities have contributed towards peace and a shared future, and I hope they are dealt with quickly by the authorities so we can concentrate on the urgent issues of the economy which affect us all. I won't take anymore of your bait so I'm not going to contribute anymore to this redundant arguement, say what you like.0 -
djpbarryAnd Murphy was the most prominent they could find?
He's one of the most prominent anti-GFA figures in North Armagh, the last time there was rioting in Craigavon if it was Duffy who gave a number of interviews on the subject to the media. Similarly Collie is also a hate figure for the cops as he was charged with killing three RUC men in the mid-90s.What has that got to do with anything?
Plenty because it demontrates the fact that elements within the British establishment often have an agenda which is vastly different to the average British citizen.
ilkhanid,What's democratic about it.
You're the one telling me they're "anti-democratic" when all they are are a small (but growing) political party with a focus on campaigns.That Independence only came about when the Insurgency was validated at the ballot box.
Oh right so its ok to launch an attack or an insurrection on the off-chance it might be retrospectively validated a few years later? That doesn't make any sense at all...if an undemocratic act nearly a hundred years ago, in a different age and in a totally different context,
What different context? The fact remains that it was a small, unrepresentative minority who asserted an Irish Republic. As far as I'm concerned that Republic is inalienable.The British Government misled-intentionally or not, I don't know-it's own people.
You don't know? Tony Blair stood up in parliament and declared Saddam Hussein had chemical weapons which could be used to attack the West in 45 minutes, an absolute and utter blatant lie. Who do you think gave him this information? Do you honestly believe it was all just a genuine mistake on behalf of the Brits and the Americans and that they had no other interest in Iraq at all?This still does'nt prove the existence of this so-called "establishment" which saw and sees the advent of Irish Unity as a greater threat to the UK than Nazis, Soviets or Islamists.
Did I say they saw Ireland as a bigger threat to the Soviets? No I didn't, so don't put words in my mouth.Post EU expansion,Post Soviet Union and Post 9/11 the world had changed immeasurably yet people like you still hold to this notion that Ireland has some extraordinary strategic value to Great Britain that she will never relinquish.
Post Cold War? Geo-political strategy is a long, long game. To deny that Ireland has a strategic value to Britain is superfluous; the Spanish saw it, the French saw it, even Hitler saw it. And you can be sure the Brits themselves saw it and certain elements in the British military had no qualms in saying that. The USSR may be gone, but that does not mean rivalry with the East has gone, if anything it is the complete opposite with NATO squaring off with a collossal China and a resurgent Russia which is reasserting its position as a major world power. To say that there is no strategic interest in keeping a part of this island as a member of the NATO alliance is naieve in my opinion.
Similarly the loss of the northern six counties could also herald the beginning of the end for the United Kingdom, and entity which is of very much economic, political and strategic importance.I take the British at their word:that they have no selfish, strategic interest in the North
So why do they stay here? Why the billions of pounds? Why the facilitating of death squads? Why cover up the murder of their own citizens?
Is it because they care about the Unionists so much or something?0 -
"Oh right so its ok to launch an attack or an insurrection on the off-chance it might be retrospectively validated a few years later? That doesn't make any sense at all."
No, it's not right. It happened once, long ago because of an extraordinary set of circumstances in another time. But that does'nt make it a rule. This country should be ruled by the democratically-elected living, not the example of the dead."..a small, unrepresentative minority who asserted an Irish Republic." And your point seems to be that every 'small, unrepresentative minority' since then participates in the same holy succession and enjoys the same imprimatur. Sorry, they don't.
"As far as I'm concerned that Republic is inalienable.
"As far as I'm concerned that Republic is inalienable." There is no inalienable "republic".It is not some platonic form that over-rides the wishes of men, it is a word describing a form of government, not holy writ.
"To deny that Ireland has a strategic value to Britain is superfluous; the Spanish saw it, the French saw it, even Hitler saw it." That was along time ago, when the enemies of Britain were on their doorstep. There are no French on the sea any more.
"NATO squaring off with a collossal China and a resurgent Russia which is reasserting its position as a major world power. To say that there is no strategic interest in keeping a part of this island as a member of the NATO alliance is naieve in my opinion."
So Northern Ireland is needed in case their is a war with Russia or China? Yes, I can imagine the value of the North in the struggle against the Chinese.I rather think Western strategic thinking has and had some slightly more important places (Iceland,Pakistan,Norway,South Africa, Taiwan,Japan,Vietnam,Hawaiii,Singapore etc etc )than Belfast and Newry to consider. And I think they would have some more sophisticated ways of defending Europe against the Bear and the Dragon than garrisons in Lisburn. This is topsy-turvy thinking. It goes like this "1. Britain is an important military power." (questionable) 2." Britain wants to retain the North of Ireland as part of the UK"(also questionable) 3."Therefore, we are a very important place and vital to Britain". Ah, Irish delusions of grandeur!0 -
No, it's not right. It happened once, long ago
It actually happened many times over the years, about once every generation or so. And yet you'll still find nearly every politician and political party scrambles to claim direct lineage from them.because of an extraordinary set of circumstances in another time
What extraordinary circumstances? Ireland was an integral part of the UK and that was an arrangement largely accepted by the majority of the Irish, in both the tacit and active sense.That was along time ago, when the enemies of Britain were on their doorstep. There are no French on the sea any more .
Plenty of angry Russians and Chinese though. As I said, your point about the world being "post Cold War" isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be considering the recent East/West rivalry.0 -
It happened once. it has'nt happened between 1921 and 2009 and I see no sign of it happening again. If that were to be the case,then we might as well forget about democratic government and hand the keys of Leinster House over the IRA (or whichever version is going at any given moment). How handy....we just wait until the first policeman or garda is murdered and..presto!.. we just find the killer and we have our new rulers,like Arthur pulling the sword from the stone. No need for nonsense like elections any more. The New Saviours of Ireland are...the ArmaghPizza killers!
If you are telling us that future generation of Irish politicians will genuflect before the shrines of Ruari O'Bradaigh and Bernadette Sands-McKevitt then all I can say is thanks for the laugh!
"Plenty of angry Russians and Chinese though."
And they are right here, off the coast and in the channel? A direct threat to Downing Street via Craigavon? I knew there were too many Chinese restaurants in Belfast....its all clear to me now!0 -
Possibly because he was an IRA member at the time (unless I am very much mistaken)? You don't think he might have information that may be of value to the police force?He's one of the most prominent anti-GFA figures in North Armagh, the last time there was rioting in Craigavon if it was Duffy who gave a number of interviews on the subject to the media. Similarly Collie is also a hate figure for the cops as he was charged with killing three RUC men in the mid-90s.
Also worth noting that Eirigi stopped short of condemning the attacks.0 -
What I don't like is generalisations of any people with liberally trown about phrases like "indoctrinated" or "black as the sole of your shoe" to either nationalist or unionist.
What does "black as the sole of your shoe" mean?Maybe if you occasionally turned off your constant "attack nationalist mentality" mode then you would shockingly find most nationalists/republicans/unionists are warm hearted people like anybody else, who like a lot of culturally heterogenous countries around the world have got off on the wrong foot and carry some suspicion towards one another. I refer your attitude to northerners on all threads which is basically to look down upon as if "intellectually inferior or unenlightened" to yourself
I was only replying to FTA69s comments . . . .You call nationalists specifically "indoctrinated" but without going into any depth or evidence to back this up.
I suggested that FTA69 may be indoctrinated, have you been on the Dutch Gold too . . .
To your question which I know what your playing at, I felt a great amount of shame hearing of the killings and such an attact on the years of hard work all communities have contributed towards peace and a shared future, and I hope they are dealt with quickly by the authorities so we can concentrate on the urgent issues of the economy which affect us all. I won't take anymore of your bait so I'm not going to contribute anymore to this redundant arguement, say what you like.
Well, I thank you for coming back to me and opening your thoughts, no bait laid or intended, seeing as my original post was aimed at FTA69.0 -
It happened once. it has'nt happened between 1921 and 2009 and I see no sign of it happening again.
What, there were no armed Republican actions after 1921 in Ireland? God, evidently I haven't a shaggin' clue so. Although I do have a nagging recollection of an armed campaign in or around 1969 that took place during a set of "extraordinary circmstances", circumstances far more "extraordinary" than that of 1916.And they are right here, off the coast and in the channel? A direct threat to Downing Street via Craigavon? I knew there were too many Chinese restaurants in Belfast....its all clear to me now!
I don't know, there's a place there in Whiterock whose Black Bean Sauce could be considered a weapon of mass destruction.
The fact is that during the Cold War there were a number of documents produced by figures in the British military which highlighted the strategic importance of Ireland. Is Ireland of paramount importance to the British agenda? Of course it isn't, even during our fabled "War of Independence" Ireland was considered a mere annoyance. I'm saying the place is of interest, but I don't think its of paramount interest no.
If it wasn't of any interest at all, or as some say, a "drain" then they would have p*ssed off years ago. You can be sure they wouldn't let the aspirations of a few Unionists get in their way.0 -
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"What, there were no armed Republican actions after 1921 in Ireland? God, evidently I haven't a shaggin' clue so. Although I do have a nagging recollection of an armed campaign in or around 1969...."
Yes, and all these campaigns ended the same way, with the perpetrators getting sense. The latest bunch took their time but they finally had to adjust to the real world. Maybe RIRA etc could save us some time and go directly to that point.
"Is Ireland of paramount importance to the British agenda? Of course it isn't, even during our fabled "War of Independence" Ireland was considered a mere annoyance. I'm saying the place is of interest, but I don't think its of paramount interest no."
So, in that case,its hardly worth the while of this shadowy "establishment" to put so much time and energy into thwarting Irish unification when any objectives they valued could be secured by less conspiratorial ways, is it? I would say pride has a lot to do with it. After all The Falklands are of little value to the British, yet they went to war to keep them. Practicality also;The British knew that to abandon the North would lead to an uncontrolled and unstable situation,numerous casualties, possibly thousands of refugees fleeing both to the South and across the Irish sea and also possibly the balkanization of Northern Ireland. The UN might get involved.Who would want that? Even the Republic-whatever the rhetoric- did'nt want the British to up sticks and leave, until there was some kind of settlement. No cunning plan here, no machiavellian objectives, just common sense.0
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