** Police officer shot dead in Armagh

junder

TomRooney wrote: »

yes FTA i know what he said, my point is when the psni officer who was killed joined it was a time of war in Ireland, he would not have joined the force if he was a nationalist which leaves the other option he was a catholic unionist, he was trying to claim the psni is now a representation of the community and is therefore valid, which is a false claim.

can you prove he was a unionist?
i noticed at his funeral there were no Unionist trappings, his coffin was not drapped in a union flag, in fact i did not see one union flag at his entire funeral. Personly as a unionist if i get killed in Afghanistan i will have it in my will that i want my coffin is drapped in a union flag, frankly as a unionist i want all the trappings, but you know thats just me you know being a unionist and all

TomRooney

junder wrote: »

can you prove he was a unionist?
i noticed at his funeral there were no Unionist trappings, his coffin was not drapped in a union flag, in fact i did not see one union flag at his entire funeral. Personly as a unionist if i get killed in Afghanistan i will have it in my will that i want my coffin is drapped in a union flag, frankly as a unionist i want all the trappings, but you know thats just me you know being a unionist and all

it is the only logical conclusion that he was pro union otherwise he would not have taken the pledge of alleigiance to the queen at a time when Ireland was at war with Britain, besides the british government have no right in any part of Ireland, as much as i dont condone voilence i am not so naive to think the GFA will permanently end 900 years of irish resistance to british rule, untill the british the leave Ireland it is likely there will be continued resistance, just look at history.

TomRooney

junder wrote: »

can you prove he was a unionist?
i noticed at his funeral there were no Unionist trappings, his coffin was not drapped in a union flag, in fact i did not see one union flag at his entire funeral. Personly as a unionist if i get killed in Afghanistan i will have it in my will that i want my coffin is drapped in a union flag, frankly as a unionist i want all the trappings, but you know thats just me you know being a unionist and all

unionists should learn to integrate into Ireland assimilate into Ireland or else vacate Ireland. multicultualism does not work it has been tried and has proven to be a failure.

I am pie

The RUC did not have an independently appointed Police Ombudsman and a locally appointed policing board to ensure accountability. It is one of the most stringently regulated police forces in Europe.

You go ahead and ignore this and pretend only the name has changed if it suits your nihilistic view of Irish politics, but know that you are in very very small minority.

Please tell me how the murder (now i know you're going to argue this was some act of fantasy war, spare us) of the police officer in question has brought us any closer to unification ?

Colin Duffy has been because DNA evidence suggests his involvement. He will be tried in a fre and open court. None of us know more than this. Anyone who is taking there inside information from graffiti on a wall would seem very gullible indeed.

junder

TomRooney wrote: »

it is the only logical conclusion that he was pro union otherwise he would not have taken the pledge of alleigiance to the queen at a time when Ireland was at war with Britain, besides the british government have no right in any part of Ireland, as much as i dont condone voilence i am not so naive to think the GFA will permanently end 900 years of irish resistance to british rule, untill the british the leave Ireland it is likely there will be continued resistance, just look at history.

in other words you have no idea what the political affilation of Stephen Carrol was you just assuming, do you remember that name? the name of the murderd police officer who was killed regardless of his political affliation. Who is to say he was not along time SDLP voter, who knows in the privacy of the election booth he may have even voted Sinn Fein, scoff all you like point is you or i don't know who he voted for and what his political affliation was

junder

TomRooney wrote: »

unionists should learn to integrate into Ireland assimilate into Ireland or else vacate Ireland. multicultualism does not work it has been tried and has proven to be a failure.

sounds like support for ethic cleansing to me

FTA69

TomRooney wrote: »

unionists should learn to integrate into Ireland assimilate into Ireland or else vacate Ireland. multicultualism does not work it has been tried and has proven to be a failure.

Demanding people conform to your own culture has been a much bigger failure throughout history. Ulster Unionists have been here for 400 odd years, they are as much an integral part of Ireland as anyone else have just as much right to what they perceive as their culture and heritage.

TomRooney

I am pie wrote: »

The RUC did not have an independently appointed Police Ombudsman and a locally appointed policing board to ensure accountability. It is one of the most stringently regulated police forces in Europe.

You go ahead and ignore this and pretend only the name has changed if it suits your nihilistic view of Irish politics, but know that you are in very very small minority.

Please tell me how the murder (now i know you're going to argue this was some act of fantasy war, spare us) of the police officer in question has brought us any closer to unification ?

Colin Duffy has been because DNA evidence suggests his involvement. He will be tried in a fre and open court. None of us know more than this. Anyone who is taking there inside information from graffiti on a wall would seem very gullible indeed.

i never said the killing of a police officer would further irish unification, but the fact it happened shows there is an ever growing section of the community in the 6 countys who are feeling marginalised and there desires for irish unification have effectively died with the Signing of the GFA,

the provos have already shown they are politicaly impotant, they cant even get the irish language act through because the unionists dont want it, there is no place it seems in the GFA for the promotion of irish culture.

and i believe it is both naive and wrong to think these people are just mindless vandals, what makes you think there political aspirations are less important than anyone elses, the fact the y use voilence is more a sign of desperation than anything else, im sure none of them would like to spend there life locked in jail, or cherish the idea of killing another human being, but the fact they are willing to risk all these things is a sign of utter desperation that can only come from the feeling that they have no other re-course.

djpbarry

TomRooney wrote: »

...as much as i dont condone voilence i am not so naive to think the GFA will permanently end 900 years of irish resistance to british rule, untill the british the leave Ireland it is likely there will be continued resistance...

So you don't condone violence, you just condone "resistance" to "British rule"?

TomRooney wrote: »

unionists should learn to integrate into Ireland assimilate into Ireland or else vacate Ireland.

Charming.

What about murdering Republican scum? They get the thumbs up, do they?

TomRooney

FTA69 wrote: »

Demanding people conform to your own culture has been a much bigger failure throughout history. Ulster Unionists have been here for 400 odd years, they are as much an integral part of Ireland as anyone else have just as much right to what they perceive as their culture and heritage.

they (unionists) dont however have the right to claim there culture takes presedence over all others....which they consistantly do, especialy in the north east of Ireland where a minority of them dictate the will of the majority on this island.

TomRooney

djpbarry wrote: »

So you don't condone violence, you just condone "resistance" to "British rule"?
Charming.

What about murdering Republican scum? They get the thumbs up, do they?

well i understand why resistance to british colonial rule exists if thats what you mean.

there is a difference between murder and fighting to rid your land of a foriegn force namely british forces.
i as i have already explained dont condone voilence but i do have an understanding of why Republicans feel the need to bear amrs against unionist scum and british forces.

I am pie

the fact that a police officer was murdered shows us that there are still a minority (let's see what kind of elected mandate these goons can muster up...fancy a bet on it being miniscule?) of people in Ireland who believe they are outside the rule law and outside of the overwhelmingly accepted boundaries of political process.

I put it to you that these people are marginalised and are fully aware that their violent method is futile and quite simply are vain nihilists looking for misguided hero worship in their marginalised communities. It's a duty of every republican to ensure these people are given hope and representation by polticians rather than violent criminals.... violent, criminal traitors in fact.

djpbarry

TomRooney wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

So you don't condone violence, you just condone "resistance" to "British rule"?

well i understand why resistance to british colonial rule exists if thats what you mean.

there is a difference between murder and fighting to rid your land of a foriegn force namely british forces.
i as i have already explained dont condone voilence but i do have an understanding of why Republicans feel the need to bear amrs against unionist scum and british forces.

A simple 'yes' would have sufficed.

TomRooney

I am pie wrote: »

the fact that a police officer was murdered shows us that there are still a minority (let's see what kind of elected mandate these goons can muster up...fancy a bet on it being miniscule?) of people in Ireland who believe they are outside the rule law and outside of the overwhelmingly accepted boundaries of political process.

I put it to you that these people are marginalised and are fully aware that their violent method is futile and quite simply are vain nihilists looking for misguided hero worship in their marginalised communities. It's a duty of every republican to ensure these people are given hope and representation by polticians rather than violent criminals.... violent, criminal traitors in fact.

you see herein lies the problem PSF have lost the respect of the grass roots, there sugar pedostal is crumbling beneath them.

there is no Republican representation PSF have strayed so far from Republicanism in there search for pwoer that they no longer represent the people they once gained there mandate from, McGuinness`s Traitor remarks went down like a lead baloon, you are entitled to your emotional outbursts of "scumbag" this and "criminal" that, but there is a growing feeling that Republicans where shafted in the signing of the GFA, PSF councilors are resigning on a regular basis due to the direction they have been led, the latest being last tuesday when a lurgan councilor resignes from PSF.

TomRooney

djpbarry wrote: »

A simple 'yes' would have sufficed.

no it wouldnt have sufficed to say "yes", as you no doubt would have attempted to twist and obscure the meaning of such a statement.

there are no simple answers in regards british occupation of Irish land.

TomRooney

junder wrote: »

in other words you have no idea what the political affilation of Stephen Carrol was you just assuming, do you remember that name? the name of the murderd police officer who was killed regardless of his political affliation. Who is to say he was not along time SDLP voter, who knows in the privacy of the election booth he may have even voted Sinn Fein, scoff all you like point is you or i don't know who he voted for and what his political affliation was

i dont care what his political views were, what i am sure of is, he most certainly would not have been shot if he was not in a british police force operating on irish soil.

TomRooney

junder wrote: »

sounds like support for ethic cleansing to me

haha sensationalist, emotional, unionist, drivvel.

Liam Byrne

TomRooney wrote: »

i dont care what his political views were, what i am sure of is, he most certainly would not have been shot if he was not in a british police force operating on irish soil.

And he would definitely not have been shot if those involved respected the views and the democratic vote of the people of this island.

TomRooney

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And he would definitely not have been shot if those involved respected the views and the democratic vote of the people of this island.

there was never an all ireland vote on the GFA, there were two partitionist votes based on lies and state propaganda.

the last all Ireland vote happened in 1918 when the majority on this island voted for a united Ireland free from british interference.
you cant pick and choose democracy, this was the last democraiticly expressed will of the entire island of Ireland and you choose to ignore it.

LordSutch

TomRooney wrote: »

i dont care what his political views were, what i am sure of is, he most certainly would not have been shot if he was not in a british police force operating on irish soil.

I have no idea what you are on about TomRooney :rolleyes: PC Stephen Carroll was by all accounts a decent man just doing his job when he was murdered . . .

Are you making excuses for his Murder?

DARKIZE

TomRooney wrote: »

it is the only logical conclusion that he was pro union otherwise he would not have taken the pledge of alleigiance to the queen at a time when Ireland was at war with Britain, besides the british government have no right in any part of Ireland, as much as i dont condone voilence i am not so naive to think the GFA will permanently end 900 years of irish resistance to british rule, untill the british the leave Ireland it is likely there will be continued resistance, just look at history.

Sweet mother........its like going back to 1988. The country has moved on and learned to accept that a reunification will not be achieved other than by consent. The rest of us have gotten over the whole "900 years of oppression" thing and learned to live peacefully with the majority of the unionist population who were just as fed up with the killing as we were..

By the way, its news to me and I'm sure the rest of the Irish population that we are now, or were ever in the last 50 years, "at war" with Britain. Can we expect conscription notices and rationing ?

TomRooney

Camelot wrote: »

I have no idea what you are on about :rolleyes: PC Stephen Carroll was by all accounts a decent man just doing his job when he was murdered . . .

maybe he was a decent man i didnt know him personaly, but the fact remains if his job wasnt serving in a british police force in Ireland then he would not have been shot.this is the reality it doesnt matter if one agrees with the motivation or not, this is the sole reason he was shot.

TomRooney

DARKIZE wrote: »

Sweet mother........its like going back to 1988. The country has moved on and learned to accept that a reunification will not be achieved other than by consent. The rest of us have gotten over the whole "900 years of oppression" thing and learned to live peacefully with the majority of the unionist population who were just as fed up with the killing as we were..

By the way, its news to me and I'm sure the rest of the Irish population that we are now, or were ever in the last 50 years, "at war" with Britain. Can we expect conscription notices and rationing ?

no it is highly un likely there will be conscription as the Army of the Irish nation has always been a voluntary organisation, and most irish people are either too apathetic or too cowardly to volunteer for anything.

the fact remains unless the british government doisengage from Ireland this type of thing is likely to continue, i didnt try to gorify it i am merely stating the reality.

TomRooney

Camelot wrote: »

I have no idea what you are on about TomRooney :rolleyes: PC Stephen Carroll was by all accounts a decent man just doing his job when he was murdered . . .

Are you making excuses for his Murder?

why would i make excuses for his killing...? it doesnt effect my life either way.

he was killed because he was a member of the british forces in Ireland to ignore this is to ignore reality.

Liam Byrne

TomRooney wrote: »

there was never an all ireland vote on the GFA, there were two partitionist votes based on lies and state propaganda.

the last all Ireland vote happened in 1918 when the majority on this island voted for a united Ireland free from british interference.
you cant pick and choose democracy, this was the last democraiticly expressed will of the entire island of Ireland and you choose to ignore it.

WTF ? I'm not the one ignoring the obvious..... :rolleyes:

It isn't possible to have an "all-Ireland vote"....similar to it not being possible to have a single "all-Europe vote" on Lisbon; ......because there are two separate juristictions. The North didn't have an "article 2 & 3" (or if they do, it probably refers to something completely different) so they couldn't be asked if they agreed to remove it, now could they ?

So there's NO WAY the vote could have been the same, or worded the same; the vote HAD to be different.

So both juristictions voted, all people were welcome to make up their own mind and vote for or against; and there were plenty of reasons to vote against - especially the release of criminals and murderers - but most people put the greater good ahead of their own preferences for the bigger picture.

As for your conspiracy theory - go tell that to the aliens and little green men. I'm intelligent enough to know what's on offer, regardless of spin and PR stunts, and I voted in favour of ending the madness and murder; despite my severe disgust that it meant murderers got released, it was [I thought] the right thing to do; I'm now having doubts, because those murderers are out free now and some factions are all-out to egg them into more murders and violence.

you cant pick and choose democracy, this was the last democraiticly expressed will of the entire island of Ireland and you choose to ignore it.

I genuinely think that sentence would be more apt coming from me and directed at you.

Liam Byrne

TomRooney wrote: »

the fact remains unless the british government doisengage from Ireland this type of thing is likely to continue, i didnt try to gorify it i am merely stating the reality.

Likewise, the fact remains that until those doing "this type of thing" - a minority with no wider support - "disengage" from it, it is likely to continue.

Quit blaming the wrong people.

You're saying the equivalent of : "until those rich people emigrate, those local minority scum with a grudge and a criminal mindset are going to keep on robbing stuff and damaging their cars."

Are you SERIOUSLY discounting the views and opinions of EVERYONE who voted for the GFA as irrelevant, in preference to the blinkered mindset of people who prefer to riot and murder ?

djpbarry

TomRooney wrote: »

i never said the killing of a police officer would further irish unification, but the fact it happened shows there is an ever growing section of the community in the 6 countys who are feeling marginalised...

All it shows is that some people feel that murder is justified. Stop trying to dress it up.

TomRooney wrote: »

...and i believe it is both naive and wrong to think these people are just mindless vandals...

Since when is murder vandalism?

TomRooney wrote: »

...what makes you think there political aspirations are less important than anyone elses...

I'm not terribly concerned about the political aspirations of murderers.

TomRooney wrote: »

...im sure none of them would like to spend there life locked in jail, or cherish the idea of killing another human being, but the fact they are willing to risk all these things is a sign of utter desperation that can only come from the feeling that they have no other re-course.

For someone who claims they don't condone violence, you're making a pretty good stab at it.

TomRooney wrote: »

you cant pick and choose democracy...

Do double-standards much?

TomRooney

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Likewise, the fact remains that until those doing "this type of thing" - a minority with no wider support - "disengage" from it, it is likely to continue.

Quit blaming the wrong people.

ok liam, what do you think of the 1918 vote in which the majority of people in Ireland voted to have a united independant nation, but the democratic will of the irish people was ignored by the british in favour of setting up an illegal unionist statelet.

awaiting your answer.

TomRooney

djpbarry wrote: »

All it shows is that some people feel that murder is justified. Stop trying to dress it up.
Since when is murder vandalism?
I'm not terribly concerned about the political aspirations of murderers.
For someone who claims they don't condone violence, you're making a pretty good stab at it.
Do double-standards much?

your debating skills are weak to say the least. you dont give a very convincing argument, lets not forget i dont have to defend anything, i am of the Republican view, which means the presence of foriegn troops in ireland is un just. it is you who must defend your poor argument.

the british gove have no right in Ireland, never had any right in Ireland and never can Have any right in Ireland, as long as there is even a respectable minority willing to affirm this then the irish nation will prevail.

djpbarry

TomRooney wrote: »

maybe he was a decent man i didnt know him personaly, but the fact remains if his job wasnt serving in a british police force in Ireland then he would not have been shot.

What about all the people in the Republic working for British businesses? Do they deserve to be shot too? And let's not forget the pizza delivery man -another enemy of the noble Republican cause, eh?