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** Police officer shot dead in Armagh
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why would i make excuses for his killing...? it doesnt effect my life either way.
'Murder' is the word you are looking for (not killing).he was killed because he was a member of the british forces in Ireland to ignore this is to ignore reality.
He was 'Murdered' because some scum bags decided that they would murder a Policeman > I say hanging is too good for the murderers, who should be locked up for life (and I mean Life). There is no rhyme nor reason why a Policeman & two young Soldiers should be murdered out of the blue > No reason what so ever.0 -
What about all the people in the Republic working for British businesses? Do they deserve to be shot too? And let's not forget the pizza delivery man -another enemy of the noble Republican cause, eh?
dont be simplistic, there is a major difference between armed british forces and business men who happen to be british, if you realy think that is the type of thing Republicans indulge in you are highly ignorant,
as for the pizza men, they where shot for supplying food to an enemy force, i dont agree with it but that is the reasoning. and the brits lets not forget have done much worse.0 -
My argument is that these men (two soldiers, one police officer) were murdered, plain and simple. You are attempting to condone these actions by claiming that these men should not have been in Northern Ireland and they essentially had it coming.you dont give a very convincing argument...
Eh, no. It means that you seem to have a rather tough time accepting that Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two different jurisdictions. This was recognised by the people in both jurisdictions over 10 years ago, but for some reason this democratic decision is invalid in your eyes, probably because it contradicts your rather warped view of the world....i am of the Republican view, which means the presence of foriegn troops in ireland is un just.
As it happens, the British government doesn't have any authority in Ireland. The UK on the other hand is a different matter.the british gove have no right in Ireland...0 -
'Murder' is the word you are looking for (not killing).
He was 'Murdered' because some scum bags decided that they would murder a Policeman > I say hanging is too good for the murderers, who should be locked up for life (and I mean Life). There is no rhyme nor reason why a Policeman & two young Soldiers should be murdered out of the blue > No reason what so ever.
please keep your emotional outbursts to yourself, there a bit childish.
there is a reason, the reason is that there are british forces in Ireland.
and the word killing is appropriate not murder.0 -
well i understand why resistance to british colonial rule exists if thats what you mean.
there is a difference between murder and fighting to rid your land of a foriegn force namely british forces.
i as i have already explained dont condone voilence but i do have an understanding of why Republicans feel the need to bear amrs against unionist scum and british forces.
does that include me, am i 'unionist scum'0 -
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There has been a massive majority in an all Ireland referendum accepting the Good Friday Agreement.
No excuse for these murders. The excuses given for attempting to murder the pizza delivery men are sick. Anybody with information about these murders should talk to the police.0 -
ok liam, what do you think of the 1918 vote in which the majority of people in Ireland voted to have a united independant nation........
Hmmmm.....let's see......
In 1986, Ireland rejected divorce; in 1995, they accepted it.
So I guess people (or the next generation, if you're talking 90 years ago) are entitled to change their minds about what's more important to them.
Thankfully those who voted against divorce don't go around killing people just because they didn't get their way - DESPITE the 1996 margin being only a 1% difference, people accepted the result of the most recent vote.
Look, you're entitled to disagree with things, but the fact is that you have to face up to the FACT that people voted a certain way, and democracy and majority rules. I have to grin and bear the fact that the incompetent con-artists that are Fianna Fail are in power, because enough people voted that way. Do I think they were stupid to ? Yes. Do I think there was coercion and lies about the economy being "in safe hands" ? Yes.
Can I murder someone because I was right and because I disagree with them running my country ?
No.0 -
"there members are made up of over 74 percent of people from a unionist background which is a drasticly un-representative proportin in regards the make up of the populations ethnicity."
And with continuing, and successful, efforts to increase the proportion of members of the Nationalist/Catholic community in the force. Have you been asleep for the last ten years?
"a simple name change does not change the ideology of a force." A hell of a lot more has happened in the PSNI in the last ten years besides a simple name-change. To repeat myself:have you been asleep......?
"get a grip, you have to have serious mental problems or must be detached from reality to claim the psni are not a majority unionist organisation.
your fooling nobody but yourself. they are an inherintly prejudiced and sectarian organisation."
Let's see the logic here. Yes, the majority of the PSNI are indeed drawn from the Unionist community. The PSNI are inherently prejudiced and sectarian. Of course they must be as the Unionist community are all prejudiced and sectarian. Just as prejudiced and sectarian as the yahoos who subjected the young PSNI hurler, Darren Graham to sectarian abuse last year, maybe?
"but the fact it happened shows there is an ever growing section of the community in the 6 countys who are feeling marginalised and there desires for irish unification have effectively died with the Signing of the GFA,"
Marginalized, eh? Well,why should their desires for Irish unification have any more or equal weight than the desires of the vast majority of people that are satisfied with things as they are.
I'd like all members of Fianna Fail to be sent to Achill island and Gerry Adams to get pie in the face every day, but until I get a majority of the people of the Republic to agree with me on this subject, I act like a civilized person and keep my mouth shut...let alone try to put these objectives into effect myself. If you can't get a County Councillor, let alone a TD or MP elected, what right have you to be complaining that you are marginalized. If you have no mandate,then that is why your "political aspirations" are less important than everybody else's.You are marginalized by the people and the democratic process. Tough. Live with it. Being "desperate" gives you no special privileges. Let these disillusioned 'Republican' councillors stand for election and see how far they get and...any chance that when they get nowhere they accept the will of the people instead of the usual "last recourse of the ..desperate"?
"he most certainly would not have been shot if he was not in a british police force operating on irish soil. "
He was Irish, operating with the consent of the people of Northern Ireland,so he was on his own on his own soil, doing his job.
"there were two partitionist votes based on lies and state propaganda."
The elitist rubbish that assumes that because the people of Ireland ("cowardly and apathetic" of course) don't agree with the True Believers then they are sheep, ignorant, deluded and easily-led, putty in the hands of the cunning media and Government. That's a right insult to the people of Ireland to claim they have no minds of their own. They have indeed, just the kind you don't like.
"unionists should learn to integrate into Ireland assimilate into Ireland or else vacate Ireland. multicultualism does not work it has been tried and has proven to be a failure."
Ethnic cleansing is the logical implication of this position. If (1) The Unionists are not going to assimilate into Ireland (or rather your idea of Ireland ) and (2) not going to vacate-and they are not, unless one is stark, raving mad enough to believe they are, than there is only one solution....one of the Radavan Karadizc/Ratko Mladic kind.0 -
My first post here, but a long time thread reader. Reason being that I could not even aspire to the subject knowledge of the regulars here.
I'd like to say only this: I'm staggered & saddened that someone with the mental capacity to stand upright can be the same person who would attempt to justify the murder of people going about their daily lives, in the name of a cause which has gained more ground in 10 years of peace than a near millennia of strife.0 -
Well said.0
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My argument is that these men (two soldiers, one police officer) were murdered, plain and simple. You are attempting to condone these actions by claiming that these men should not have been in Northern Ireland and they essentially had it coming.
I did not say they had no right to be the country as in a personel context, I said the british government or there armed forces have no right to be in any part of the 32 countys of Ireland. these men were killed as a direct result of british rule in Ireland, they are not the first, and sadly they probably wont be the last.Eh, no. It means that you seem to have a rather tough time accepting that Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two different jurisdictions. This was recognised by the people in both jurisdictions over 10 years ago, but for some reason this democratic decision is invalid in your eyes, probably because it contradicts your rather warped view of the world.
I do not accept British rule or jurisdiction in any part of the 32 countys of Ireland, like most Irish people i would like to see a Re-United Ireland.
there was no democratic decision made on the future of Ireland, Partition was not up for vote, and a partitionist vote is not truly representative of the island of Ireland as a whole.As it happens, the British government doesn't have any authority in Ireland. The UK on the other hand is a different matter.
your right the british government do not have authority in Ireland im glad we agree on that, but unfortunitly they claim to have authority over the north eastern part of Ireland and as long as they continue to make such absurd claims there will likely be more resistance to such.0 -
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Liam Byrne wrote: »Hmmmm.....let's see......
In 1986, Ireland rejected divorce; in 1995, they accepted it.
So I guess people (or the next generation, if you're talking 90 years ago) are entitled to change their minds about what's more important to them.
Thankfully those who voted against divorce don't go around killing people just because they didn't get their way - DESPITE the 1996 margin being only a 1% difference, people accepted the result of the most recent vote.
Look, you're entitled to disagree with things, but the fact is that you have to face up to the FACT that people voted a certain way, and democracy and majority rules. I have to grin and bear the fact that the incompetent con-artists that are Fianna Fail are in power, because enough people voted that way. Do I think they were stupid to ? Yes. Do I think there was coercion and lies about the economy being "in safe hands" ? Yes.
Can I murder someone because I was right and because I disagree with them running my country ?
No.
of course people can change there minds, but any vote taken through the gerrymandered partitionist set up is INVALID and UN-DEMOCRATIC, and is unrepresentative of the nation as a whole.
so Lets have an all Ireland vote on the issue of Re-Unification and lets see if the british government and the unionists respect the will of the people of the whole island of Ireland.0 -
of course people can change there minds, but any vote taken through the gerrymandered partitionist set up is INVALID and UN-DEMOCRATIC, and is unrepresentative of the nation as a whole.
so Lets have an all Ireland vote on the issue of Re-Unification and lets see if the british government and the unionists respect the will of the people of the whole island of Ireland.
What has this got to do with shooting an innocent police officer in the back?0 -
My first post here, but a long time thread reader. Reason being that I could not even aspire to the subject knowledge of the regulars here.
I'd like to say only this: I'm staggered & saddened that someone with the mental capacity to stand upright can be the same person who would attempt to justify the murder of people going about their daily lives, in the name of a cause which has gained more ground in 10 years of peace than a near millennia of strife.
they were going about representing the armed forces of british occupation in Ireland, not just sauntering down the street with an ice cream.
PSF have achieved nothing in the last 10 years in stormont or the GFA.
PSF couldnt get the irish language act through stormont because the unionists blocked it.
Stormont is still run by sectarian bigots the 6 countys is still an artificial Orange statelet.
are the policing powers devolved to the Stormont set up....NO, meaning London and westminster control the british police in the north east of Ireland.
is there any framework for the Re-Unification of Ireland...NO, and there is not likely to be as Long as PSF administer british rule in Ireland.
you see once you scratch the surface and look past the smiley photos, nothing has changed, accept PSF have become alot richer in the service of the queen.0 -
There has been a massive majority in an all Ireland referendum accepting the Good Friday Agreement.
No excuse for these murders. The excuses given for attempting to murder the pizza delivery men are sick. Anybody with information about these murders should talk to the police.
Not true, there has not been an all Ireland referendum on anything in over 90 years, the last time there was an all Ireland vote, the people of Ireland voted for an independant 32 county Republic to be free from british rule, but the british ignored this and set up the gerrymandered state through partition known as "northern ireland"
there is a reason they were shot, you may not agree with the reason, but theres no point saying "there is no reason"
the reason respectivley was british troops/police Occupying Irish soil, and collaborating with enemy british troops on irish soil by providing food to them. im not saying i agree with it, but those are the reasons behind it.0 -
What has this got to do with shooting an innocent police officer in the back?
innocent in what respect was he innocent...what was he innocent of exactly...?
anyway you mean shot in the back of the head.
well if you read through the posts im sure you will see what it has to do with it.0 -
My first post here, but a long time thread reader. Reason being that I could not even aspire to the subject knowledge of the regulars here.
I'd like to say only this: I'm staggered & saddened that someone with the mental capacity to stand upright can be the same person who would attempt to justify the murder of people going about their daily lives, in the name of a cause which has gained more ground in 10 years of peace than a near millennia of strife.
Explain that one? Nothing has been gained.
Alot of republicans are sick of the GF agreement, nothing really has changed and it's very funny how nobody talks about loyalists dropping their weapons like the PIRA did, they still have them, the brits haven't gone away you know!!
I find this country abit strange, you have people in FF/FG and every other political party in Ireland who think people like Pádraig Pearse are heroes yet they go against everything these brave men stood for.0 -
When this thread started on the 9th of March, I expected 'in my innocence' that it would be a thread of condolence for the sappers families & PC Carrolls family, which it has been really, with 99.9% of the posts being 'Pro-peace' & sympathetic to the bereaved families of the three victims, but what I wasnt prepared for, was any toleration of the three murders & the murderers themselves! > but thats exactly what we are getting throughout this thread, (admittedly from only two or three posters), but I am still truly amazed.
Its very hard to believe that some people still think murder will further their cause (2009).0 -
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It must take a tremendous effort of will to sustain this sort of warped thinking.there is a reason they were shot, you may not agree with the reason, but theres no point saying "there is no reason"
the reason respectivley was british troops/police Occupying Irish soil, and collaborating with enemy british troops on irish soil by providing food to them. im not saying i agree with it, but those are the reasons behind it.
Last year a young plumber's apprentice was shot by a hitman for being in the house of their intended target. There is a reason he was shot, you may not agree with the reason, but there's no point saying "there is no reason" - the reason was that the filthy murdering subhuman scum who shot him decided that his personal agenda was more important than a human life.
I have no doubt that in the aftermath of that murder, whoever ordered the hit was able to justify his death by the same sort of self-serving sophistry that you're pulling out in this case. The circumstances don't matter: in both cases, all right-thinking decent members of society know that the reason a plumber's apprentice, two soldiers and a policeman are dead are because murdering low-life scum decided to murder them.
Why are you asking? You and your ilk have invented an alternate reality where a non-existent political situation is justification for the implementation of summary execution on the basis of the assumption of guilt.innocent in what respect was he innocent...what was he innocent of exactly...?
The rest of us don't live in your reality. We live in a world where someone who guns down unarmed soldiers, police and plumbers in cold blood is a murderer. When you're prepared to participate in our reality, we will have a basis for discussion.0 -
You're right, they weren't sauntering down the road with ice cream. They were sauntering down to the gatehouse to collect pizza. How very inflammatory of them, how oppressive. How many hours had those soldiers spent marauding the streets, abusing their position? None. Those days are gone, get over it, move on. Their murder is unjustifiable.they were going about representing the armed forces of british occupation in Ireland, not just sauntering down the street with an ice cream.
PSF have achieved nothing in the last 10 years in stormont or the GFA.
PSF couldnt get the irish language act through stormont because the unionists blocked it.
Stormont is still run by sectarian bigots the 6 countys is still an artificial Orange statelet.
are the policing powers devolved to the Stormont set up....NO, meaning London and westminster control the british police in the north east of Ireland.
is there any framework for the Re-Unification of Ireland...NO, and there is not likely to be as Long as PSF administer british rule in Ireland.
you see once you scratch the surface and look past the smiley photos, nothing has changed, accept PSF have become alot richer in the service of the queen.Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »Explain that one? Nothing has been gained.
Alot of republicans are sick of the GF agreement, nothing really has changed and it's very funny how nobody talks about loyalists dropping their weapons like the PIRA did, they still have them, the brits haven't gone away you know!!
I find this country abit strange, you have people in FF/FG and every other political party in Ireland who think people like Pádraig Pearse are heroes yet they go against everything these brave men stood for.
I went to visit a friend in Omagh just before Christmas. I didn't pass any checkpoints, military vehicles etc. Same with several shopping trips to Enniskillen. That's a change for the better.
The demographic of the PSNI has changed, and continues to do so. The people living on this island feel safer than they have done in many a year.
If some can't see progress, however slow it may be, it's because they simply don't want to.0 -
Yes, they do.I did not say they had no right to be the country as in a personel context, I said the british government or there armed forces have no right to be in any part of the 32 countys of Ireland.
And I don’t accept that the sky is blue because I’m colour-blind.I do not accept British rule or jurisdiction in any part of the 32 countys of Ireland…
Yes, there was. You can deny this all you want but it makes no difference.there was no democratic decision made on the future of Ireland…
But they do have authority in the UK, of which Northern Ireland is a constituent part.your right the british government do not have authority in Ireland...
Oppression! Oppression!PSF couldnt get the irish language act through stormont because the unionists blocked it.
You’d rather the policing powers were devolved to the “sectarian bigots”?Stormont is still run by sectarian bigots the 6 countys is still an artificial Orange statelet.
are the policing powers devolved to the Stormont set up....NO, meaning London and westminster control the british police in the north east of Ireland.
As far as I know, yes, there is. But you see, to most people on this island, unifying the North with the Republic is not the be-all and end-all. It wouldn’t be top of most peoples’ list of political and economic priorities right now.is there any framework for the Re-Unification of Ireland...
:rolleyes: No, of course not.…you see once you scratch the surface and look past the smiley photos, nothing has changed...
denial:Not true, there has not been an all Ireland referendum on anything in over 90 years…- the act of asserting that something alleged is not true
- a defense mechanism that denies painful thoughts
So you think the murders were reasonable?there is a reason they were shot, you may not agree with the reason, but theres no point saying "there is no reason"0 -
So what alternative do dissidents have to offer? What strategy do they have? If the IRA couldn't win what makes dissidents believe they can acheive their objective of a United Ireland through an already failed course of action? What political mandate do they possess? Where do they find the financial backing to prolong a campaign of any substance over any period of time? The concepts of Guerilla warfare rely upon,among other things, a sizeable popular support base,which dissidents do not have nor can hope to acheive. Dissidents are politically stunted and directionless and serve the interests of those who would use their actions to put back the valid cause of a united Ireland a further 800 years.Not true, there has not been an all Ireland referendum on anything in over 90 years, the last time there was an all Ireland vote, the people of Ireland voted for an independant 32 county Republic to be free from british rule, but the british ignored this and set up the gerrymandered state through partition known as "northern ireland"
there is a reason they were shot, you may not agree with the reason, but theres no point saying "there is no reason"
the reason respectivley was british troops/police Occupying Irish soil, and collaborating with enemy british troops on irish soil by providing food to them. im not saying i agree with it, but those are the reasons behind it.0 -
what they hope to achieve is a violent backlash against the catholic community, the common thing among paramilitary groups is they need their own community to feel oppressed in order to justify their existence, so they commit acts with the desire to achieve just that, which leads in the case of the troubles a almost symbiotic relationship between loyalist and republican paramilitaries with each act of aggression perpetrated against the other community justified the existence of the paramilitary group within that community and vice versa, which is why the whole idea of the wrong person being arrested makes little since since arresting the wrong person and charging play right into the hands of dissidents0
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they were going about representing the armed forces of british occupation in Ireland, not just sauntering down the street with an ice cream.
Very true. 5 minutes before hand they were burning a village in cork before violating Cathleen Ní Houlihan.
No wait they were buying pizza because their flight out of Ireland to Afghanistan was delayed.
Jesus wept.PSF have achieved nothing in the last 10 years in stormont or the GFA.
You mean the a decade without major violence isn't something.PSF couldnt get the irish language act through stormont because the unionists blocked it.
Oh christ well thats a reason to murder three men right there so. Do you really think a act to force through a lanaguage that despite nearly a decade of education many in the south have trouble speaking is worth murder.
Stormont is still run by sectarian bigots the 6 countys is still an artificial Orange statelet.are the policing powers devolved to the Stormont set up....NO, meaning London and westminster control the british police in the north east of Ireland.
And the policing board and Ombudsman are what now? Keep in mind I've been invited to speak in UCD alongside Nuala O'Loan's on the subject matter of policing in Ireland.is there any framework for the Re-Unification of Ireland...NO, and there is not likely to be as Long as PSF administer british rule in Ireland.
Child, because under the terms of the good friday agreement we renounced our claim to it. And we voted for it, in massive numbers.
There isn't any framework for it, but thers no outright rejection of the ideal, both sides have agreed to work together to build a peaceful stable state. Once we get that we'll see what comes next, no one is in any rush. Except some bigoted hot heads.you see once you scratch the surface and look past the smiley photos, nothing has changed, accept PSF have become alot richer in the service of the queen.
And the lack of bombings. And the massive decrease in sectarian violence. And the control over significant parts of the economy. And health care. And education. And the investment.
Aside from that everything is the same.
Sorry were you ever in the North in the 80s?Not true, there has not been an all Ireland referendum on anything in over 90 years, the last time there was an all Ireland vote, the people of Ireland voted for an independant 32 county Republic to be free from british rule, but the british ignored this and set up the gerrymandered state through partition known as "northern ireland"
So to be clear, despite the fact that there were two referendums one south and one north and (I know this must sound like some pretentious bit of legal tomfoolery) that when all the votes were cast in both elections if you added them up the "Yes" votes for the GFA were more than the "No" votes, on both sides of the border, to a ratio of 9:1, you seem to think that an election in 1918 nearly 90 years ago is a more valid representation of the will of the people of Ireland?
I have to ask this question, does your glue sniffing habit affect every part of your life or just your political beliefs?0 -
I'm afraid Diognes that our peaceful reasoning is falling of deaf ears, Tom + FTA are hell bent on their blood lust ideology - full stop. We can all condemn them till the cows come home, but sadly it wont make a blind bit of difference.0
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of course people can change there minds, but any vote taken through the gerrymandered partitionist set up is INVALID and UN-DEMOCRATIC, and is unrepresentative of the nation as a whole.
so Lets have an all Ireland vote on the issue of Re-Unification and lets see if the british government and the unionists respect the will of the people of the whole island of Ireland.
And if the new vote that you're proposing also indicated the same result, something tells me that you'd call it "gerrymandered, partitionist, invalid & undemocratic" :rolleyes:
The nation as a whole voted, and over 90% said "yes, that's the way we want to go". You're being very dismissive of people's level of intellect, because the gerrymandering etc went on with the Lisbon treaty and people STILL voted no.
In fact, the only gerrymandering that I saw with the GFA vote was when SF wanted some additional scum released from prison; I had uncomfortably agreed to release some of the scum from both sides when I voted, but I would have voted no if I'd realised some of the stuff they tried to pull was on the cards (e.g. trying to include Gerry McCabe's murderers that they'd previously disowned when it suited them and said were working off their own bat).
If you say the vote was undemocratic and you don't recognise it, what's your view on all of those people who were released ? Will you put all of those scum back into prison, as if the vote never happened ?
Somehow I doubt it; you probably want it both ways.
As I said, I don't agree with the public vote for FF last election, but I have to live with it because it's what the people decided. I can't say "I don't recognise their authority", or go rioting and murdering people because of it.
But we're repeating ourselves to someone who's obviously so bigoted and superior that they can dismiss a 91% democractic vote as undemocratic; jaysus, if Ireland does ever get united I'm emigrating because I couldn't live with people like that. :rolleyes:
So I'll bow to your superior knowledge, your AK-47, your "you know better" attitude (considering poor little gullible me didn't spot all the gerrymandering and voted like an idiot even though I spotted that murderers and criminals would be released), your dictatorship attitude that your view is superior to 91% of the population of this island and your amazing ability to remove the facts and blatantly obvious from your blinkered viewpoint.
I've better things to do than convince someone that somewhere between black and white there's a thing called grey..... :rolleyes:0 -
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In the history of Republicanism, a military campaign was only used when there was no alternative political route that they could follow. That is not the case in the 6 counties now.
Equality in housing, jobs, social issues are there. The rights of identity and citizenship are there. The police force wasn't going to change overnight. But the RUC have gone, accountablity measures are there, equality in policing is changing and policing powers will be brought to the north of Ireland for the first time in it's history. We have North-South bodies working on a range of issues for the island. Even unionism is at a point of working on an all island basis on some issues.
Is everything perfect? No, there is still more work to be done and sometimes stormont is fustrating. But to say there's been no progress is wrong.
Is shooting cops and british soldiers going to get a United Ireland? Definitely not. Why not join the politics, change hearts and minds, show people that having this ridiculous border only hinders all the people of this island.0
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