** Police officer shot dead in Armagh

Liam Byrne

TomRooney wrote: »

lets not forget i dont have to defend anything

Then stop defending murder.

TomRooney wrote: »

as long as there is even a respectable minority willing to affirm this then the irish nation will prevail.

Ah yes - those "respectable" people who see murdering people as an OK tactic. :rolleyes:

I quit - life's too short for arguing with brainwashed sectarian people.

Disagreements and issues are a fact of life; it's how you deal with them that counts and reflects who you are.

So let's let the idiots rest in their own delusions, and let those murdered rest in peace. We thought we could honour their legacy on some level by consigning murder and violence to history, but some people obviously prefer bloodshed and chaos to normality.

Good luck with your view of utopia, Tom Rooney - something tells me you'll be there with your 100 "respectable" blinkered friends minority, because thankfully it's a view that no-one else shares.

ilkhanid

"Alot of republicans are sick of the GF agreement, nothing really has changed and it's very funny how nobody talks about loyalists dropping their weapons like the PIRA did, they still have them, the brits haven't gone away you know!!"

A lot? Where are their representatives then? If they can't scrape together a County Councillor it does'nt seem like 'a lot'. A few gunmen, a mob burning cars? Impressive!

There is continuing pressure on the loyalist paramilitaries to surrender their guns. Back to sleep!

"Nothing has changed"
Soooo..lets see. Well, obviously apart from a devolved administration,North-South bodies, de-militarization, the dismantling of surveillance towers, a new police force with increasing Catholic membership,close overseeing of the PSNI, a police ombudsman,an improved economy,much rebuilding in Belfast, increased employment for the Nationalist community,a growing Catholic middle-class,Catholic participation in third-level education increasing greatly,a decline in sectarianism,citizenship rights guaranteed,equality in social housing,increased tourism,all parties represented in Government and last but most important hardly anybody being killed any more....apart from that, nothing has changed. With apologies to the Popular Front for the liberation of Judeah and The Life of Brian.

GuanYin

junder wrote: »

and what was he gulity of?

More importantly, what was he guilty of that led to being killed without trial, jury of peers, representation or even notice to family and friends.

With those allowances, someone (a twisted someone) might have a case for calling it an execution, without them, it is just murder.

To answer Tomrooney, he was innocent of anything that justified his death.

Dr Galen

guys can't you see that your wasting your time here with people like TomRooney and FTA.

they and their ilk DO NOT represent the majoirty of catholics or nationalists or republicans in the north. their idea's and action actually bring shame on us as a people.

I may not agree with the likes of Junder, but I firmly believe that his has every riht to hold such views, as long as it's in a peaceful manner. Like I've said before, a lot of these "real-republicans" have really no idea what it was actually like to grow up and live in Northern Ireland, they were sheltered away and the closest they came to ""the struggle" was the 9 o'clock news. Grow up lads, its 2009. Move on, our day will come, but only through inclusiveness, dialogue and the will of the majority, not shotings, bombings and a return to he bad old days!

FTA69

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

guys can't you see that your wasting your time here with people like TomRooney and FTA.

Don't be dragging me into this at all, I never said I agreed with these killings.

Can'tseeme,

In the history of Republicanism, a military campaign was only used when there was no alternative political route that they could follow.

That's rubbish, if anything the complete opposite was the case. Usually Irish Republicans such as the IRB etc were acting in a conspiratorial manner in opposition to already established and supported constitutional movements.

Equality in housing, jobs, social issues are there.

They could have been there by the mid-70s, let us not forget that the IRA (and right-wing Unionists) tried their utmost to wreck power sharing deals such as Sunningdale and the Anglo-Irish Agreement. This whole lark that the Provos were simply frustrated civil-rights campaigners is revisionism of the highest order. Contrary to his current warblings, the likes of Gerry Adams would have viewed NICRA with cynicism, viewing it only as a potential for a flashpoint which would enable the Provos to initiate their war with the Brits. Luckily for them the Brits were stupid enough to walk into that trap.

Similarly for the likes of Martin McGuinness to call those engaged in armed actions today "traitors" is nothing shy of hypocrisy considering up until a few years back he was on the ruling body of an organisation which shot hundreds of soldiers and cops without any democratic mandate from anyone.

But the RUC have gone, accountablity measures are there, equality in policing is changing and policing powers will be brought to the north of Ireland for the first time in it's history.

A complete and utter red-herring when you consider the fact that MI5 will have complete supremacy over any issues affecting "state security", they answer only to Westminister and will in no way be accoutable to Stormont, the policing boards, Sinn Féin or whoever else. Recently we have seen the re-introduction of covert agencies in Ireland by Hugh Orde, and Sinn Féin were completely powerless to change that. In fact Martin McGuinness had no qualms standing shoulder to shoulder with him a couple of days after to lambast people as "traitors".

Even unionism is at a point of working on an all island basis on some issues.

Unionism works the bodies which suits it, I remember when I was in the Provisional Republican Movement we were continually told that Unionism is divided and that Trimble was "managing a retreat". Complete and utter b*llocks told with a view to keeping the rank-and-file happy; "don't worry lads, ye're in the know" wink nudge. In reality Unionism has radicalised and solidified around the DUP and is now in the strongest position it ever was. Despite all the flowery language Northern Ireland will remain a part of the UK until the Unionists say otherwise, in other words the Unionist Veto has been accepted completely.

Sinn Féin's bold new strategy nowadays is one of convincing Unionists to vote for Irish unity. This notion is completely ridiculous because 1) they're not going to be convinced of anything by the people who shot their policemen and bombed their towns for 25 years straight and 2) it is arrogance to think you can turn Unionists into Nationalists.

Unionists have had their culture engrained into them for 400 years, more Unionists died on the Somme in a week than all the Republican martyrs put together. Saying you can persuade them to accept Irish unity is as ridiculous as them saying they're going to persuade you to become a Unionist.

Dr Galen

i'm sorry if thats what you thought I meant. I'm aware you haven't come out and agreed with the murders

nlgbbbblth

Camelot wrote: »

When this thread started on the 9th of March, I expected 'in my innocence' that it would be a thread of condolence for the sappers families & PC Carrolls family, which it has been really, with 99.9% of the posts being 'Pro-peace' & sympathetic to the bereaved families of the three victims, but what I wasnt prepared for, was any toleration of the three murders & the murderers themselves! > but thats exactly what we are getting throughout this thread, (admittedly from only two or three posters), but I am still truly amazed.

Its very hard to believe that some people still think murder will further their cause (2009).

Not really.
Plenty people still complain about 'the Brits', '800 years'. They still shout for ABE in sporting fixtures. Go into a pub when England are playing a soccer match. Or Celtic v Rangers.

It's not too difficult to see why the dissidents think their murderous actions will have support when they see this kind of naked hatred.

Of course you'll get people crying crocodile tears when murders like the ones we're discussing take place. But give 'em a few weeks and they'll be back to screaming at the television at Rooney and Gerrard representing their country. F*ckin hypocrites. :rolleyes:

ilkhanid

"This notion is completely ridiculous because 1) they're not going to be convinced of anything by the people who shot their policemen and bombed their towns for 25 years straight and 2) it is arrogance to think you can turn Unionists into Nationalists."

Sensible and to the point.

Can'tseeme

FTA,

It's easy to look back at the 70's, a horrible time for nationalists living in the north and try and find hypocrisies in the republican movement. While I don't agree with everything the PIRA were doing, I can understand why people signed up. We were under the jackboot of unionism and the rest of the world didn't give a sh1t. Republicans, were trying to negotiate away out of this from the mid 70's.

Do you honestly think Britian wants to remain here? Do you really think that nothing has changed? What's your thoughts on the transfer of policing and justice powers? Built into the GFA is a mechanism for unification if the people want it. People aren't born unionist or nationalist. I know people myself who once voted UUP and now vote Sinn Fein. We've a better chance for unification through a political process.

What is the alternative FTA? How would you achieve unification?

LordSutch

Pretty bad time for Unionists too if you look at the death toll, caused 'mainly' but not exclusively by the PIRA - who I had no time for (to put it very mildly) :cool: anyway, I dont want to get into a rant on what the PIRA did to people, so lets concentrate on 2009.

The Troubles are Over, they are finished, we have the GFA & SF are in Government!

FTA69

It's easy to look back at the 70's, a horrible time for nationalists living in the north and try and find hypocrisies in the republican movement.

Well I was looking a lot further back than the 1970s, you said Republicans only engaged in armed actions when the democratic or consitutional path was closed, I simply pointed out that the complete opposite was the case.

We were under the jackboot of unionism and the rest of the world didn't give a sh1t. Republicans, were trying to negotiate away out of this from the mid 70's.

When Ruairi Ó Brádaigh declared the 1975 ceasefire the likes of Gerry Adams in particular lambasted him as a sell-out and was pushing for the ceasefire to be ended (rightly in my opinion). Republicans up until the mid-1980s complete eschewed negotiations and as I said above, tried to wreck any power-sharing settlement because they knew it would be the end of them. The IRA campaign was about "Brits Out", it wasn't the armed extension of NICRA although you'd swear it was the way people go on these days.

Do you honestly think Britian wants to remain here?

Of course they do, they wouldn't have fought a 25 year war here and pumped £6bn odd into the place if they didn't. If they didn't want to remain here they would have shagged off years ago.

Do you really think that nothing has changed?

People often point out demilitarisation and the cosmetic reform of the PSNI as examples of "progress" and in Republican circles sometimes as a "victory". The fact is the militarisation of the northern state came about as a direct result of the IRA campaign and Republican resistance, when that resistance ended so did the paramilitary policing of the RUC and the active presence of the British Army. The likes of watchtowers etc were simply the crudest manifestation of the occupation of Ireland and in a nutshell are now only gone because the IRA stood down and destroyed its weapons.

What's your thoughts on the transfer of policing and justice powers?

A red-herring because anything to do with "security" will be under the complete control of MI5, which they will direct from their massive new barracks in Co Down.

I know people myself who once voted UUP and now vote Sinn Fein.

The vast majority who voted UUP are now voting DUP. If you think a sizeable body of Unionists are ever going to come on board with Sinn Féin of all people you obviously don't understand the Unionist psyche.

What is the alternative FTA? How would you achieve unification?

The only way to achieve Irish unity is via creating a demand for it in the south. For years the Republican Movement neglected to build a support base in the south (through no fault of their own considering the pressing circumstances) and that was their eventual undoing. Unionism can securely maintain its position only because they majority of the country is largely apathetic to it. In order to create that demand for unity Republicans must become relevant to the lives and issues of southern working people. In short that means grassroots political work and community activism as well as coalescence with like-minded groups and sections of organised labour.

One thing I do know though, is popping out of the shadows and banging a couple of Brits every few years is going to achieve f*ck all for anyone.

TomRooney

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

guys can't you see that your wasting your time here with people like TomRooney and FTA.

they and their ilk DO NOT represent the majoirty of catholics or nationalists or republicans in the north. their idea's and action actually bring shame on us as a people.

I may not agree with the likes of Junder, but I firmly believe that his has every riht to hold such views, as long as it's in a peaceful manner. Like I've said before, a lot of these "real-republicans" have really no idea what it was actually like to grow up and live in Northern Ireland, they were sheltered away and the closest they came to ""the struggle" was the 9 o'clock news. Grow up lads, its 2009. Move on, our day will come, but only through inclusiveness, dialogue and the will of the majority, not shotings, bombings and a return to he bad old days!

the naivity of your post is laughable, it is you who has no Idea of Irelands History and it is you who is unwilling to do anything to secure Irelands future.
The GFA has copper fastened british rule is Ireland, the unionists have a veto over the re-unification of Ireland, what always suprises me is how a minority in the north east of Ireland can hold the will of the majority on the isalnd of Ireland to ransom. it is simply illogical to have a border seperating 6 countys from the 26 all to appease a minority in this country.
sinn fein can not even get the irish language act through because the DUP dont want to recognise irish culture, Provo sinn fein can only do what the DUP allow them to do.
the british police force in the 6 countys are still controlled by westminster.
there is no framework for a re-united Ireland.

you can go on believeing the spin from the powers that be, but it is evident nothing has changed in the 6 countys except maybe there is less chance of a united Ireland than there ever was.
but the true patriots of this country who historicly were always in the minority will continue the struggle untill Ireland is free from british rule.

the very fact you even mention religion in relation to the irish struggle is evidence that you are educated by the media, Religion has nothing to do with the irish situation, it was just used as a smoke screen by the britis to cover and hide the real issue of british occupation of Ireland.
Republicans have nothing to do with sectarianism, the ideology of Republicanism does not allow it.

TomRooney

Camelot wrote: »

Pretty bad time for Unionists too if you look at the death toll, caused 'mainly' but not exclusively by the PIRA - who I had no time for (to put it very mildly) :cool: anyway, I dont want to get into a rant on what the PIRA did to people, so lets concentrate on 2009.

The Troubles are Over, they are finished, we have the GFA & SF are in Government!

just to clarify your biased view there camelot, in regards the "troubles" the loyalists/unionists planted the first bomb, the loyalists/unionists killed the first member of the security forces in the 6, the loyalists/unionists murdered the first civilian an innocent catholic. it was the loyalists/unionists who started to burn catholics out of there homes for no reason.

what did you expect the nationalist community to do just die or vanish..?
it is justified that they defend themselves from such brutality.

TomRooney

GuanYin wrote: »

To answer Tomrooney, he was innocent of anything that justified his death.

some people would say being a member of an armed foriegn occupational force Ireland such as the british army or the ruc/psni is justification enough to be executed. and im sure they were aware of this.

junder

TomRooney wrote: »

some people would say being a member of an armed foriegn occupational force Ireland such as the british army or the ruc/psni is justification enough to be executed. and im sure they were aware of this.

So how can i occupy my own country? and how can i be a forigner in my own country? note i am a british citzen, i am from northern ireland aqnd i regard, myself as British and i am in the British army. Moreover does being a member of a republican paramiltary group give justification to being 'executed' or is it just Soliders and policemen that deserve it?

r0nanf

TomRooney wrote: »

some people would say being a member of an armed foriegn occupational force Ireland such as the british army or the ruc/psni is justification enough to be executed. and im sure they were aware of this.

"Some people would say" - does that include you? Why don't you give straight answer instead of that diluted waffle. Do you think his murder was justified?

Can'tseeme

You talked about the hypocrisies of the Sinn Fein position atm compared to what there position was in the 70's. Life, politics, everything changes and in the Ireland things have changed for the better. You live, learn, develop, find other ways.

Personally I think the British government would get out if they could. Pouring £4 billion pound in a year with feck all back in return. They stated back in 1990 they have no reason to remain here and wouldn't stand in the way of a united Ireland if the people want it.

I agree, winning the hearts and minds of the people is the answer.

djpbarry

FTA69 wrote: »

Don't be dragging me into this at all, I never said I agreed with these killings.

No, you didn't. But you didn't condemn them either.

FTA69 wrote: »

A complete and utter red-herring when you consider the fact that MI5 will have complete supremacy over any issues affecting "state security", they answer only to Westminister and will in no way be accoutable to Stormont, the policing boards, Sinn Féin or whoever else.

This is borderline conspiracy theory, but anyway...

You're complaining about a unionist 'veto' in Stormont while at the same time complaining that policing powers reside at Westminster. That's a bit of a conflicting viewpoint, don't you think?

FTA69 wrote: »

Despite all the flowery language Northern Ireland will remain a part of the UK until the Unionists say otherwise...

Well, yeah, because that's what the majority of people in Northern Ireland want.

FTA69 wrote: »

...it is arrogance to think you can turn Unionists into Nationalists.

I think time would be far better spent converting both unionists and nationalists into couldn't_give_a_toss_either_way-ists, rather than trying to shift people from one pole to another.

FTA69 wrote: »

Unionists have had their culture engrained into them for 400 years...

There are 400-year-olds in Northern Ireland? Cool.

FTA69 wrote: »

Of course they do, they wouldn't have fought a 25 year war here and pumped £6bn odd into the place if they didn't. If they didn't want to remain here they would have shagged off years ago.

Come off it. If Westminster cut the chord tomorrow, you really think there would be no fall-out? The last thing Britain (and Ireland, of course) wants is an unstable statelet on it's doorstep.

djpbarry

TomRooney wrote: »

sinn fein can not even get the irish language act through because the DUP dont want to recognise irish culture...

Would you expect FF to be in favour of everything proposed by FG and Labour?

TomRooney wrote: »

some people would say being a member of an armed foriegn occupational force Ireland such as the british army or the ruc/psni is justification enough to be executed.

I'm sure some murdering scum would, yes. But the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland accept that Northern Ireland is British.

TomRooney

junder wrote: »

So how can i occupy my own country? and how can i be a forigner in my own country? note i am a british citzen, i am from northern ireland aqnd i regard, myself as British and i am in the British army. Moreover does being a member of a republican paramiltary group give justification to being 'executed' or is it just Soliders and policemen that deserve it?

firstly the state of "northern Ireland" is not a country, it is a segmented part of Ireland. illegaly partitioned by the british government against the will of the irish people.

if you are a member of the british army and you are in any part of Ireland then it is obvious you are part of a foriegn military occupational force.

you are entitled to be british and live in Ireland if you want, but you being a british person living in Ireland does not make that part of Ireland part of Britain.

no more than if a polish person tride to claim dublin was part of poland.

as for members of paramilitary groups you would have to address your questions about them to one of them of which i am not.
but i would imagine if they IRA consider themselves members of the irish army, then they would expect at some time it may be a possibility that they would be shot injured or captured, just as the british army or security forces in Ireland would expect.

TomRooney

djpbarry wrote: »

Would you expect FF to be in favour of everything proposed by FG and Labour?
I'm sure some murdering scum would, yes. But the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland accept that Northern Ireland is British.

FF,FG and Labour are the exact same with different names, there is no real opposition whitin lienster house, that is part of the Problem.

well djbarry as for yor second claim i can see you are deluded, in a red c poll in 2006 over 80% of people in the 26 countys would like to see a united Ireland, how do you eqaute that fact with your opinion that irish people accept northern ireland as being british....?

TomRooney

r0nanf wrote: »

"Some people would say" - does that include you? Why don't you give straight answer instead of that diluted waffle. Do you think his murder was justified?

i am a pacifist so i wouldnt justify any killing of any human, but i have an understanding of why these acts occured, alot of people here seem to be blinded by pure media sensationalism, they ignore the realitys that lay behind these acts.

that reality being, as long as there is a british presence in Ireland, it is likely there will be resistance to that presence, i dont believe these people who killed the soldiers and brit police are crazed lunatics, i believe they are commited determined unrepentant Republicans, and i doubt they will stop. i am not saying i agree with everything they do, but i do have an understanding of the situation that doesnt rely on biased reports from state controlled sunday rags.

junder

TomRooney wrote: »

firstly the state of "northern Ireland" is not a country, it is a segmented part of Ireland. illegaly partitioned by the british government against the will of the irish people.

if you are a member of the british army and you are in any part of Ireland then it is obvious you are part of a foriegn military occupational force.

you are entitled to be british and live in Ireland if you want, but you being a british person living in Ireland does not make that part of Ireland part of Britain.

no more than if a polish person tride to claim dublin was part of poland.

as for members of paramilitary groups you would have to address your questions about them to one of them of which i am not.
but i would imagine if they IRA consider themselves members of the irish army, then they would expect at some time it may be a possibility that they would be shot injured or captured, just as the british army or security forces in Ireland would expect.

Northern Ireland is not part of Britain it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and is a internationaly recognised as such by the US, EU, the UN etc etc. As somebody from Northern Ireland as far as i am concerned Northern Ireland is the COUNTRY of my brith and no amount of killing my fellow citzens is going to change that.
Does your republican expectation of of possiablt being shot or captured extend to being shot unarmed while going for a pizza?

TomRooney

junder wrote: »

Northern Ireland is not part of Britain it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and is a internationaly recognised as such by the US, EU, the UN etc etc. As somebody from Northern Ireland as far as i am concerned Northern Ireland is the COUNTRY of my brith and no amount of killing my fellow citzens is going to change that.
Does your republican expectation of of possiablt being shot or captured extend to being shot unarmed while going for a pizza?

northern ireland is a country...? tell that to the nearly 700,000 thousand irish people who live in the 6, also tell it to the 80% of people in the 26 who would like to see a united Ireland.

as for expectations of being shot, if you are in a military uniform ie the british, and you are in a foriegn country namely Ireland, you can expect to some degree you are a target,
now how can you determined who is a Republican from who isnt when they wear civvy clothes, it is impossible to positively identify the difference.
that is why loyalist/unionists used to just randomly pick out innocent civilians and murder them in cold blood, for no other reason than living in a certain area.

Liam Byrne

TomRooney wrote: »

in a red c poll in 2006 over 80% of people in the 26 countys would like to see a united Ireland

In a red c poll where ? In those Sunday rags that you dismissed as "state controlled" ? :rolleyes:

If you did a poll, most people would "like" to see a load of things (e.g. no tax if you were earning less than €30K), but wanting it doesn't make them fact or law, and doesn't justify murder.

TomRooney

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In a red c poll where ? In those Sunday rags that you dismissed as "state controlled" ? :rolleyes:

If you did a poll, most people would "like" to see a load of things (e.g. no tax if you were earning less than €30K), but wanting it doesn't make them fact or law, and doesn't justify murder.

it may not make them law, but it does dismiss the view you try to perpetuate that the majority of irish people accept any part of Ireland as being british.

the fact remains the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland would like to see a united Ireland, this is there expressed will, so why is a minority in the north east of this country allowed to determine the futer of the country it is un-democratic.

r0nanf

TomRooney wrote: »

i am a pacifist so i wouldnt justify any killing of any human, but i have an understanding of why these acts occured...

Surely a pacifist would condone the killings?

TomRooney

r0nanf wrote: »

Surely a pacifist would condone the killings?

FTA69

This is borderline conspiracy theory, but anyway...

No it isn't, it's an established fact and it was a condition of the St Andrew's Agreement that MI5 would retain supreme control over security matters to do with state security and that there would be no independent monitoring of their activities. That isn't me engaging in conspiracy at all, look it up for yourself.

I already posted one link to that effect.

You're complaining about a unionist 'veto' in Stormont while at the same time complaining that policing powers reside at Westminster. That's a bit of a conflicting viewpoint, don't you think?

The "Unionist Veto" has nothing to do with Stormont, it refers to the fact that there is no Ireland-wide determination of sovereignty outside of the confines of partition.

There are 400-year-olds in Northern Ireland? Cool.

How facetious. Although you know full well I was referring to the fact that Unionism is a 400 year old ideology and they aren't going to be shifted from that position by people they feel bombed the sh*t out of them for 25 years.

If Westminster cut the chord tomorrow, you really think there would be no fall-out? The last thing Britain (and Ireland, of course) wants is an unstable statelet on it's doorstep.

The "mad paddies will slaughter each other" argument has been bandied about for years. What would the Unionist position be in the event of a withdrawal? They don't have the critical mass to form an independent state and they're hardly going to re-join the UK so what would be the point in a Unionist campaign of violence?

Can'tseeme,

They stated back in 1990 they have no reason to remain here and wouldn't stand in the way of a united Ireland if the people want it.

That was 1993 I believe Patrick Mayhew said that. Similarly they also said there was no collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries, personally it's worrying that a Republican would accept anything they say on face value.

LordSutch

TomRooney wrote: »

northern ireland is a country...? tell that to the nearly 700,000 thousand irish people who live in the 6, also tell it to the 80% of people in the 26 who would like to see a united Ireland.

Northern Ireland is a region of the 'United Kingdom' as recognised by Dublin, London, Belfast & the World.

TomRooney wrote: »

as for expectations of being shot, if you are in a military uniform ie the british, and you are in a foriegn country namely Ireland, you can expect to some degree you are a target,

So does that mean that all Policeman/ WPCs & Soldiers in NI can expect to be shot from now on?

After all the bloodshed & misery up North over thirty five years, & just as things are beginning to settle down over the last ten years, and now the killing starts up again > but why ?