** Police officer shot dead in Armagh

junder

TomRooney wrote: »

northern ireland is a country...? tell that to the nearly 700,000 thousand irish people who live in the 6, also tell it to the 80% of people in the 26 who would like to see a united Ireland.

as for expectations of being shot, if you are in a military uniform ie the british, and you are in a foriegn country namely Ireland, you can expect to some degree you are a target,
now how can you determined who is a Republican from who isnt when they wear civvy clothes, it is impossible to positively identify the difference.
that is why loyalist/unionists used to just randomly pick out innocent civilians and murder them in cold blood, for no other reason than living in a certain area.

I am not in a forgien country i am in the country of my birth, namely northern ireland, moreover i will anybody you want thats its a country. You are right paramiltrays do not wear a uniform or any form of idenfying emblem which means they are in breach of the international law of armed conflict and waive any rights to be classed as POW, buts thats nither here nor there, the point was these soliders were unarmed irrespective of what they were wearing and were murdered. And trust me as somebody that actully lives in Northern Ireland, republican paramiltrays were not shy in murdereding innocent people either

djpbarry

TomRooney wrote: »

…but i would imagine if they IRA consider themselves members of the irish army…

…which they are not.

TomRooney wrote: »

well djbarry as for yor second claim i can see you are deluded, in a red c poll in 2006 over 80% of people in the 26 countys would like to see a united Ireland, how do you eqaute that fact with your opinion that irish people accept northern ireland as being british....?

I have no doubt that the majority of people in the Republic would support a united Ireland, in theory. But, the overwhelming majority of people in this country voted to relinquish Ireland’s constitutional claim on Northern Ireland in 1998, a fact that you and your ilk steadfastly refuse to acknowledge.

TomRooney wrote: »

i am a pacifist so i wouldnt justify any killing of any human…

Pull the other one.

FTA69 wrote: »

The "mad paddies will slaughter each other" argument has been bandied about for years. What would the Unionist position be in the event of a withdrawal? They don't have the critical mass to form an independent state and they're hardly going to re-join the UK so what would be the point in a Unionist campaign of violence?

What’s the point of the current campaign of violence? Since when does terrorism require a reason?

Liam Byrne

TomRooney wrote: »

it may not make them law, but it does dismiss the view you try to perpetuate that the majority of irish people accept any part of Ireland as being british.

Show me where I "tried to perpetuate" that, please....... :rolleyes:

In an ideal world, I would like to see the whole island as Irish, too, but it doesn't mean that I'll tolerate or excuse murder as a method to achieve it.

WE VOTED to let the people THERE decide what THEY wanted to do; THEY voted too.

So despite what people might say to a pollster - THAT IS WHAT THEY VOTED FOR.

The result : the right to self-determination. We no longer have a say, and it's up to those people to campaign - democratically - to achieve whatever they want.

And "they" includes the Unionists.

r0nanf

TomRooney wrote: »

Typo, but I'm sure you knew what I was getting at anyway - surely a pacifist wouldn't condone the killings

Fratton Fred

TomRooney wrote: »

northern ireland is a country...? tell that to the nearly 700,000 thousand irish people who live in the 6, also tell it to the 80% of people in the 26 who would like to see a united Ireland.

Actually, I've just done a quick poll in the UK. 80% of the 60,000,000 people that live here think that all these islands are part of the UK.

Just pop the keys through the letter box will you or well start shooting people a week next Tuesday.

Can'tseeme

FTA, it was Peter Brooke said it in 1990. I'm taking nothing from the British Government on face value. I said it's my personal opinion they don't want to be here.

Do you agree with the GFA?

Can'tseeme

Just to wrap up this argument. Ireland is a country with two states. N Ireland (under british jurisdication) and Rep of Ireland (free state). Now move on.

getz

Can'tseeme wrote: »

FTA, it was Peter Brooke said it in 1990. I'm taking nothing from the British Government on face value. I said it's my personal opinion they don't want to be here.

Do you agree with the GFA?

its always up to the people in the north to decide on what ever they want to do and that the way it always should be-the rest of the uk do not dictate on this decision -this is also the rules of the eu parlement-when i raised the question of gibraltar and the spanish claim to it -the letter i got from the chairman of the eu parlement saying we always back the peoples decision if they want to stay british so it will be-even a certain prime minister couldent change that and it will be for the people in the north to decide ,not the republic or britain so live with it

oscarBravo

TomRooney wrote: »

some people would say being a member of an armed foriegn occupational force Ireland such as the british army or the ruc/psni is justification enough to be executed. and im sure they were aware of this.

Some people say the voices in their heads tell them to kidnap and murder people. People say all sorts of things to justify their psychopathic behaviour. It doesn't make it any less wrong in the eyes of right-thinking people.

TomRooney wrote: »

firstly the state of "northern Ireland" is not a country, it is a segmented part of Ireland. illegaly partitioned by the british government against the will of the irish people.

"Illegally"? There's a law against the internationally-recognised border between the UK and Ireland?

Let me guess: this law exists only in your alternative reality, right? Because I'm pretty certain you're not going to be able to cite any law out here in the real world that's being broken.

if you are a member of the british army and you are in any part of Ireland then it is obvious you are part of a foriegn military occupational force.

Only if you live in the reality-distortion field that requires you to reject the overwhelmingly-expressed view that Ireland stops at the border.

TomRooney wrote: »

...in a red c poll in 2006 over 80% of people in the 26 countys would like to see a united Ireland, how do you eqaute that fact with your opinion that irish people accept northern ireland as being british....?

I would like to see an Aston Martin outside my house. I accept that there's a Ford Focus there. There is no contradiction.

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

I have no doubt that the majority of people in the Republic would support a united Ireland

I have no doubt either djpbarry. Most people in the republic consider their country to be Ireland rather than the republic of Ireland and so it's understandable that we would want to see our country united.

djpbarry wrote:

Ireland’s constitutional claim on Northern Ireland

Ridiculous statement. Northern Ireland is the northern part of Ireland. You can't refer to them as though they're separate entities. The former includes the latter.

oscarBravo wrote:

Only if you live in the reality-distortion field that requires you to reject the overwhelmingly-expressed view that Ireland stops at the border.

No it doesn't. The republic of Ireland stops at the border. Ireland is the island of Ireland and includes the six counties.

oscarBravo

O'Morris wrote: »

No it doesn't. The republic of Ireland stops at the border. Ireland is the island of Ireland and includes the six counties.

*sigh*

Bunreacht na h&#201 wrote: »

Éire is ainm don Stát nó, sa Sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland.

If you feel the need to use stupid semantic tricks to score points in a debate, you've already lost.

FTA69

FTA, it was Peter Brooke said it in 1990.

That's true, I was mistaken there.

Do you agree with the GFA?

No.

Can'tseeme

FTA69 wrote: »

That's true, I was mistaken there.



No.

Why

junder

Lawful Combatants. A lawful combatant is an individual authorized by governmental authority or the LOAC to engage in hostilities. A lawful combatant may be a member of a regular armed force or an irregular force. In either case, the lawful combatant must be commanded by a person responsible for subordinates; have fixed distinctive emblems recognizable at a distance, such as uniforms; carry arms openly; and conduct his or her combat operations according to the LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict). The LOAC applies to lawful combatants who engage in the hostilities of armed conflict and provides combatant immunity for their lawful warlike acts during conflict, except for LOAC violations.

Unlawful Combatants. Unlawful combatants are individuals who directly participate in hostilities without being authorized by governmental authority or under international law to do so. For example, bandits who rob and plunder and civilians who attack a downed airman are unlawful combatants. Unlawful combatants who engage in hostilities violate LOAC and become lawful targets. They may be killed or wounded and, if captured, may be tried as war criminals for their LOAC violations.

ilkhanid

"Republicans have nothing to do with sectarianism, the ideology of Republicanism does not allow it. "

Apart from the several well-attested instances where it did engage in sectarianism, of course.

"well djbarry as for yor second claim i can see you are deluded, in a red c poll in 2006 over 80% of people in the 26 countys would like to see a united Ireland, how do you eqaute that fact with your opinion that irish people accept northern ireland as being british....? "

No inconsistency there. What we'd like to see in an ideal world and the realities we accept are totally different things. The majority of Irish people probably would like to see an united Ireland eventually...in the right conditions. But they are not particularly botherred by the fact that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom right now.

"illegaly partitioned by the british government against the will of the irish people."

Is'nt this the whole point, about which John Hume has spoken so eloquently?There is no single will of the Irish people; there is arguably no single 'Irish People'. If there is it is divided on this matter. There is no single 'will'. That kind of thing is a relic of antiquated nationalism.

"What would the Unionist position be in the event of a withdrawal? They don't have the critical mass to form an independent state and they're hardly going to re-join the UK so what would be the point in a Unionist campaign of violence?"

Since when has nationalistic passions had anything to do with reason? What point is there in the basques carrying on a hopeless campaign against the Spanish state? Or the Tamils against the Sinhalese state? Neither of them has the "critical mass" either. Neither does Kosovo,South Ossetia or Abkhazia.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

Most people in the republic consider their country to be Ireland rather than the republic of Ireland and so it's understandable that we would want to see our country united.

That's not what I said at all (but I suspect you know that).

O'Morris wrote: »

Northern Ireland is the northern part of Ireland. You can't refer to them as though they're separate entities.

I can and I did. Northern Ireland Act 1998, part I, article 1 (1):

It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom...

Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.

ilkhanid

"No it doesn't. The republic of Ireland stops at the border. Ireland is the island of Ireland and includes the six counties. "

Correct. Ireland is the name give to the geographical entity. Sometimes the area of political jurisdiction of a state is coterminous with the geographical area where it exists, as in Australia, New Zealand and Japan. Sometimes (North America, Borneo,New Guinea) it is'nt. I am a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, a political unit and I am an Irishman,an inhabitant of the island of Ireland, a territorial unit with many historic and cultural similarities-and many differences too. Ireland includes two entities of this nature.There is no obligation of me-or anybody- to attempt to make the geographical area and a common political area one and the same. There is no reason that necessitates that such an area should by right have a single political authority or government.

K-9

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

they and their ilk DO NOT represent the majoirty of catholics or nationalists or republicans in the north. their idea's and action actually bring shame on us as a people.

I may not agree with the likes of Junder, but I firmly believe that his has every riht to hold such views, as long as it's in a peaceful manner. Like I've said before, a lot of these "real-republicans" have really no idea what it was actually like to grow up and live in Northern Ireland, they were sheltered away and the closest they came to ""the struggle" was the 9 o'clock news. Grow up lads, its 2009. Move on, our day will come, but only through inclusiveness, dialogue and the will of the majority, not shotings, bombings and a return to he bad old days!

Agreed. These people think parts of West Belfast and parts of South Armagh represent Republican/Nationalist opinion. They don't see or more accurately, don't want to see, the real NI. NI is moving on, it scares them.

FTA69 wrote: »

Well I was looking a lot further back than the 1970s, you said Republicans only engaged in armed actions when the democratic or consitutional path was closed, I simply pointed out that the complete opposite was the case.



When Ruairi Ó Brádaigh declared the 1975 ceasefire the likes of Gerry Adams in particular lambasted him as a sell-out and was pushing for the ceasefire to be ended (rightly in my opinion). Republicans up until the mid-1980s complete eschewed negotiations and as I said above, tried to wreck any power-sharing settlement because they knew it would be the end of them. The IRA campaign was about "Brits Out", it wasn't the armed extension of NICRA although you'd swear it was the way people go on these days.

Good God of almighy, it's 2009. Build a bridge.

FTA69 wrote:

The vast majority who voted UUP are now voting DUP. If you think a sizeable body of Unionists are ever going to come on board with Sinn Féin of all people you obviously don't understand the Unionist psyche.

You mean the same crowd who are power sharing? You do realise that exactly the same point can be made of SDLP Voters migrating to SF?

I live 10 miles from the border. It's there whether I like it or not. My town is an example of how a mixed community can get on. There's the odd eejit, but when the 12th of July marches happen in our South of the border town, nobody cares. NI will go that way and I think that is the extremists fear. They don't want to see normalisation in NI.

TomRooney

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Actually, I've just done a quick poll in the UK. 80% of the 60,000,000 people that live here think that all these islands are part of the UK.

Just pop the keys through the letter box will you or well start shooting people a week next Tuesday.

actualy most people in Britain would support a united Ireland also.

so lets break it down, the majority of people in the 26 countys want a united Ireland, the majority of people in Britain want to see a united Ireland......so why are a minority in the north east holding us all to ransom...?

you lot are quick to support the unionist position but what about the rest of us who want a united Ireland...?

K-9

TomRooney wrote: »

actualy most people in Britain would support a united Ireland also.

so lets break it down, the majority of people in the 26 countys want a united Ireland, the majority of people in Britain want to see a united Ireland......so why are a minority in the north east holding us all to ransom...?

you lot are quick to support the unionist position but what about the rest of us who want a united Ireland...?

Sources?

For ROI, GB and NI?

PS. Good Friday wasn't a Referendum on an United Ireland.

TomRooney

K-9 wrote: »

Sources?

For ROI, GB and NI?

PS. Good Friday wasn't a Referendum on an United Ireland.

A 2006 Sunday Business Post survey reported that almost 80% of voters in the Republic favour a united Ireland: 22% believe that "achieving a united Ireland should be the first priority of the government"


is significant support in Great Britain for Ireland to reunify as a political entity. An ICM poll conduced by The Guardian in 2001 revealed that only 26% of Britons supported Northern Ireland remaining a part of the UK, while 41% supported a united Ireland.[23] The British Social Attitudes Survey in 2006 found 34% supported Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK, and 39% supported a united Ireland.[24]

it is obvious the majority or irish people and british people believe a united Ireland is preferential over a partitioned Ireland, why should ulster loyalists/unionists dictate the will of the rest of us, after all they are the minority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland

TomRooney

K-9 wrote: »

Sources?


PS. Good Friday wasn't a Referendum on an United Ireland.

yes true, and that is part of the problem.

K-9

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055397127

I'll refer you to that thread, particularly to the last few pages. Also includes wiki articles to compare like with like.

A majority of Republican/Nationalist voters do not want an United Ireland.

They may vote SDLP/SF in an election but so do FG voters.

Unioinists voted for the SDLP in the 90's, therefore it does not mean all SDLP voters want an United Ireland. Many Nationalist are perfectly happy with the status quo and with the mess that is the Republic now, that could well increase.

Economics will come into a Referendum and that will, no matter how many want to portray it otherwise, result in less votes for an United Ireland.

TomRooney

K-9 wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055397127

I'll refer you to that thread, particularly to the last few pages. also includes wiki articles to compare like with like.

A majority of Republican/Nationalist voters do not want an United Ireland.

They may vote SDLP/SF in an election but so do FG voters.

Unioinists voted for the SDLP in the 90's, therefore it does not mean all SDLP voters want an United Ireland. Many Nationalist are perfectly happy with the status quo and with the mess that is the Republic now, that could well increase.

Economics will come into a Referendum and that will, no matter how many wants to portray it, result in less votes for an United Ireland.

what are you talking about..? i have proven to you that in a poll 80 percent of people in the 26 want re-unification, also in two other independant polls, the british people themselves said they favoured a re-united Ireland over a partitioned one, do you realy think you can just disregard this...?

are you realy that brainwashed...?

K-9

TomRooney wrote: »

what are you talking about..? i have proven to you that in a poll 80 percent of people in the 26 want re-unification, also in two other independant polls, the british people themselves said they favoured a re-united Ireland over a partitioned one, do you realy think you can just disregard this...?

are you realy that brainwashed...?

Read the thread, what harm will it do you if you are so right? Might even prove you are even more correct?

Unless you don't want to read polls that disagree with your opinion? Surely not?

TomRooney

K-9 wrote: »

Read the thread, what harm will it do you if you are so right? Might even prove you are even more correct?

i have read it,

that thread is only about 6 countys out of the 32 countys of Ireland, even if only half (big exageration) of the people from nationalist communitys in the 6 countys wanted a united Ireland, the majority on the island as a whole would still favour re-unification.

also the majority of people in britain favour irish re-unification over partition.

a small minority is holding us all to ransom, stamping there feet like children untill they get what they want. but it is common sense that partition can not last, it is an artificial boundry, and it goes against the will of the irish and british people.

K-9

TomRooney wrote: »

actualy most people in Britain would support a united Ireland also.

so lets break it down, the majority of people in the 26 countys want a united Ireland, the majority of people in Britain want to see a united Ireland......so why are a minority in the north east holding us all to ransom...?

you lot are quick to support the unionist position but what about the rest of us who want a united Ireland...?

TomRooney wrote: »

i have read it,

that thread is only about 6 countys out of the 32 countys of Ireland, even if only half (big exageration) of the people from nationalist communitys in the 6 countys wanted a united Ireland, the majority on the island as a whole would still favour re-unification.

also the majority of people in britain favour irish re-unification over partition.

a small minority is holding us all to ransom, stamping there feet like children untill they get what they want. but it is common sense that partition can not last, it is an artificial boundry, and it goes against the will of the irish and british people.

I think the only conclusive prove would be a referendum. If people are asked now, both sides of the border, "do you want an United Ireland", you'd get 3/3.5 Million easy in a poll. Say 70%.

Come a Referendum ala Lisbon, would we get the same majority.

PS. A 50% Simple majority will never wash, I'd say it would need to be 66%.

Exile 1798

K-9 wrote: »

I think the only conclusive prove would be a referendum. If people are asked now, both sides of the border, "do you want an United Ireland", you'd get 3/3.5 Million easy in a poll. Say 70%.

Come a Referendum ala Lisbon, would we get the same majority.

PS. A 50% Simple majority will never wash, I'd say it would need to be 66%.

Moving the posts I see, just like Ahern saying a majority isnt good enough.

And why not, if you've already accepted the veto of the Unionist minority, what's the harm in creating another minority population that needs to be obeyed?

"There are 150 000 West Brits that don't what unity, we must respect the wishes of the West Brit community!"

ilkhanid

"a small minority is holding us all to ransom"

Who is this 'us all',? Not me, or anybody I know.Don't attempt to pass your intransigence onto me or the rest of the Irish people.
Most of the people here want a united ireland when the time is right, when it will cause no trouble, when it won't cost us more and when everybody agrees to it. Not before then.

getz

with doing a little thinking about what it would mean if there was a united ireland next week-would most [forget about the po/brits at this moment] would most republicains be better off as part of the republic [no health service ect] remember the amount of uk tax payers money that has to be put into the provence , there are a lot of unemployed at the moment and that would increase with the so called brit pull out, i would think every irishman in the world would like one day to see one ireland--but in the cold light of day people will always think of what is best for them -i know the republic could not afford it and the uk taxpayer -will not give them money if they want to leave