** Police officer shot dead in Armagh

FTA69

prinz wrote: »

Interesting how you can "occupy" your own country.

Balls. By your logic there was no such country as Ireland until 1921 and even then it ended at the Monaghan border. Ireland is Ireland, it always was; there is a big blue wavy thing with fish in it and Britain is on the other end of it. The fact the Brits decided to partition this country in 1920 doesn't change that fact.

As regards Iraq and Afghanistan, they are there defending basic human rights against the same scum as the RIRA.

They are there helping a US adminstration shore up an occupation which was initiated for oil wells and a pipeline. They could no more give a f*ck about the human rights of Middle Eastern civilians than the Taliban.

The difference is the British have the balls to put their troops in the frontline

"Our brave lads" is it now? :rolleyes: There isn't much "balls" in bombing the sh*t out of some of the poorest people in the world.

Dannyboy83

Originally Posted by FTA69
As I said on another thread, the British Army have no right to be in this country and are an army of occupation. The same crowd are also in Afghanistan and Iraq.

If the British Army left and a UN peace keeping force entered, do you think it would solve anything?

yoshytoshy

Without swaying the thread off topic ,could someone explain why there are orangemen up in the north and why do they need to parade around the place?

They come across as the most bigoted bunch up in the north and what is it they actually do for the people ?

Jip

FTA69 wrote: »

There isn't much "balls" in bombing the sh*t out of some of the poorest people in the world.

But there is in shooting young pizza delivery lads and unarmed men ?

Dannyboy83

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Without swaying the thread off topic ,could someone explain why there are orangemen up in the north and why do they need to parade around the place?

They are bigoted. And they're open about that.
But I think people have taken a higher ground.

Well, until this anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Dublin_Republican_riots

They come across as the most bigoted bunch up in the north and what is it they actually do for the people ?

Read all about them here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Institution

Mary Harney

Mary Harney leader of the government coalition member Progressive Democrats party, whose offices were attacked by rioters said, "I don't have much respect for the Orange Order, because it is a sectarian, bigoted organisation, but I do respect people's right to march... I think that they have got a great coup in being prevented from marching. Those that sought to stop them have played right into their hands."[9]

junder

FTA69 wrote: »

prinz wrote: »

Balls. By your logic there was no such country as Ireland until 1921 and even then it ended at the Monaghan border. Ireland is Ireland, it always was; there is a big blue wavy thing with fish in it and Britain is on the other end of it. The fact the Brits decided to partition this country in 1920 doesn't change that fact.



They are there helping a US adminstration shore up an occupation which was initiated for oil wells and a pipeline. They could no more give a f*ck about the human rights of Middle Eastern civilians than the Taliban.



"Our brave lads" is it now? :rolleyes: There isn't much "balls" in bombing the sh*t out of some of the poorest people in the world.

"Ireland has always been a country", really how long since by country i assume you mean nation state.
You are correct i do not live in britain, i never claimed i did, i do however live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so again i have to ask how can i 'occupy' my own country.

Dannyboy83

Originally Posted by FTA69
As I said on another thread, the British Army have no right to be in this country and are an army of occupation. The same crowd are also in Afghanistan and Iraq.

If the British Army left and a UN peace keeping force entered, do you think it would solve anything?


BUMP

FTA69

junder wrote: »

First of all I have to say I find it gas that a member of a party associated with the UVF is now in the new "reformed" Royal Irish Regiment.

You claim loyalists are inherently bigoted which in itself is a inherently bigoted statement

No it isn't. There is nothing necessarily bigoted about Unionism per se, but Loyalism is a different kettle of fish. Loyalism is a supremacist ideology with an inherent belief in the superiority of the Ulster Protestant over the native population. It has consistantly and reliably been a reactionary stream of thought, wedded to a constant siege mentality which has manifested itself in pogroms against Catholics and the formation of illegal and quasi-legal paramilitaries. (B-Specials, UVF etc).

so far the only bigoted posts i am seeing on this site are from republicans claiming that those of us of protestant descent in northern ireland are aliens to the land we call home.

I never said that anyway. When I say the British presence I don't mean Irish Unionists, I mean the actual British who retain sovereignty over a part of this country. Nobody believes Unionists should be shipped off or whatever, rather that they constituted a minority of Irish people and have no right to a veto over Irish sovereignty.

To makes things clear i am a loyalist, i was a member of the progressive unionist party for many years, i dispise sectarianism in all its forms and like many within the loyalist community will be doing our level best to insure that loyalist paramiltarys do not retaliate.

Good for you. And I mean that sincerely.

However, I have to ask, if you dislike sectarianism so much how come you were a member of a party which is aligned to an organisation founded upon sectarianism and which is currently selling hard drugs to your own people?

So far we have a policemen and 2 soldiers killed for doing nothing more then doing thier duty (have any of you even considered that fact that the policeofficer may have been from the catholic community)

I'm not sectarian at all like, I couldn't care what religion soldiers are. Sure weren't the RIC Catholics too?

all done by the same group the blew the heart out of omagh and killed innocent people many of whom where again catholic, and yet people are still trying to excuse thier actions as in some way ok.

I'm not anyway.

As i have already mentioned i am in the British army, the Royal Irish as it happens, and i am from northern ireland so explain to me how i can 'occupy' my own country.

Collaborating would be a better word.

prinz

FTA69 wrote: »

prinz wrote: »

Balls. By your logic there was no such country as Ireland until 1921 and even then it ended at the Monaghan border. Ireland is Ireland, it always was; there is a big blue wavy thing with fish in it and Britain is on the other end of it. The fact the Brits decided to partition this country in 1920 doesn't change that fact.

Well, there was't. The Normans united this country. Before that there was a mish-mash of vikings, outsiders, pirates etc. There never has been an "Ireland", the only thing the "Irish" could agree on was fighting someone else ( Brian Boru etc ). There are no homogenous 'Irish', we are just the result of wave after wave of invasion and settlement. The Brits didnt partition Ireland, the Treaty was negotiated and voted on, and the majority of people accepted and supported it. Once again the democratic will of the people is lost on you.

As for the other, yes the British Army is one of the best and bravest, and have a history of destroying tyrants and terrorists who cant respect the will of the people. It doesnt take courage to seriously wound, then execute in cold blood unarmed boys. It takes courage to put on your uniform and stand tall and proud doing your job.

FTA69

Jip wrote: »

But there is in shooting young pizza delivery lads and unarmed men ?

Did I say there was?

Merciful hour, so I point out the fact that British soldiers aren't a bunch of heroes and ergo I must be wholly supportive of the Real IRA? That's quite a leap.

yoshytoshy

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Read all about them here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Institution

Mary Harney

They're a front for sectarian bigotry ,something I wouldn't put up with in ANY democracy.

irishgrover

probably off topic, but here goes...

Directed more specifically at the more republican members of the board...

At what point does the partition of the Island of Ireland become legitimate? How many generations or years need to pass in order for it to be legitimate for part of this Island to be part of the UK, (if the majority of the people in that part of the island want it to be)
This island had been partitioned for almost 100 years now, a few generations. Over that time period the % of people on the island that accepted that partition as legitimate has increased. Obviously the people who carried out the incidents in NI in the last few days, violently disagree with that viewpoint.

Does anyone of the republican flavor ever see a situation where the people of NI (as the border is now partitioned) state that they are British and want to stay that way, and that will be accepted as legitimate by republicans?

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote: »

Balls. By your logic there was no such country as Ireland until 1921 and even then it ended at the Monaghan border. Ireland is Ireland, it always was; there is a big blue wavy thing with fish in it and Britain is on the other end of it. The fact the Brits decided to partition this country in 1920 doesn't change that fact.

But the fact that an overwhelming majority of us voted democratically to accept the partition of the island in 1998 does.

We changed the Constitution. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Seriously: move on.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Without swaying the thread off topic ,could someone explain why there are orangemen up in the north and why do they need to parade around the place?

That is completely off-topic for this thread.

Latchy

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If the British Army left and a UN peace keeping force entered, do you think it would solve anything?
[/I]

Might have happpened if histroy had being different ie,the south sent soldiers into the bogside in 1969 but noting to indicate that they to (UN) wouldn't have being attacked .Would only have being be a short stop gap soloution and would have suited the catholic population more than the protestant one.

FTA69

prinz wrote: »

Before that there was a mish-mash of vikings, outsiders, pirates etc. There never has been an "Ireland", the only thing the "Irish" could agree on was fighting someone else ( Brian Boru etc ). There are no homogenous 'Irish',

More revisionist balls. The Irish spoke the same language, they had the same dress and culture, they had the same legal system, they had the same economic system, they had the same social structure. Even the divisions you outlined were grouped into provinces or "cuigi", the Irish for "fifth" ie a fifth of a greater entity. Even the invaders you outline adopted and assimilated into this culture. So was Ireland a nation state? No, because there were only one or two proto-states in the world at that time; but they were a distinct people and this country was recognised across Europe as a distinct entity.

The Brits didnt partition Ireland

Will you ever go away and read a book and stop assaulting my eyes with such historical innaccuracies. Ireland was partitioned in 1920 when the Brits brought in the Government of Ireland Act.

Once again the democratic will of the people is lost on you.

After Lloyd George threatened an "immediate and terrible war" if they didn't, pure democracy alright.

As for the other, yes the British Army is one of the best and bravest, and have a history of destroying tyrants and terrorists who cant respect the will of the people.

They showed those dastardly Zulus alright, the rotten tyrants were armed to the teeth with spears and shields and all sorts of weapons of mass destruction. Not to mention the Indians, a people who were steeped in the tactics of terror before "Our Boys" arrived to sort them out and show them what for. And that's only the start of it.

Away up the yard and don't be annoying me.

Dannyboy83

latchyco wrote: »

Might have happpened if histroy had being different ie,the south sent soldiers into the bogside in 1969 but noting to indicate that they to (UN) wouldn't have being attacked .Would only have being be a short stop gap soloution and would have suited the catholic population more than the protestant one.

But the RIRA's point is simple.

There are British Soldiers, RIRA believe they have no right to be here.

So why not put in German, French or UN soldiers?

Then there are no excuses for the violence and even the diehards will see that the RIRA are just criminals.

yoshytoshy

oscarBravo wrote: »

That is completely off-topic for this thread.

Sorry oscar bravo ,just trying to point out something to people who say ,that they want to get on with their lives and not look to the past.

I don't think it's fair that groups like the orangemen ,can cause daily grief for people in northern ireland.
It obviously adds to the troubles.

Anyways sorry ,I won't indulge in this on the thread or forum.

prinz

The whole situation is typical Irish ignorance and petty minded. How is it that French and German people arent killing each other over Alsace and Lorraine anymore? They fight two world wars kill millions of each other in total space of about a decade, and now they can put it behind them. Ask someone in Ireland to do it?? The brits killed three of ours in Gibraltar.. WHATEVER.Grow the hell up and get over it without killing people.

Dannyboy83

FTA69 wrote: »

prinz wrote: »

More revisionist balls. The Irish spoke the same language, they had the same dress and culture, they had the same legal system, they had the same economic system, they had the same social structure. Even the divisions you outlined were grouped into provinces or "cuigi", the Irish for "fifth" ie a fifth of a greater entity. Even the invaders you outline adopted and assimilated into this culture. So was Ireland a nation state? No, because there were only one or two proto-states in the world at that time; but they were a distinct people and this country was recognised across Europe as a distinct entity.



Will you ever go away and read a book and stop assaulting my eyes with such historical innaccuracies. Ireland was partitioned in 1920 when the Brits brought in the Government of Ireland Act.



After Lloyd George threatened an "immediate and terrible war" if they didn't, pure democracy alright.



They showed those dastardly Zulus alright, the rotten tyrants were armed to the teeth with spears and shields and all sorts of weapons of mass destruction. Not to mention the Indians, a people who were steeped in the tactics of terror before "Our Boys" arrived to sort them out and show them what for. And that's only the start of it.

Away up the yard and don't be annoying me.

To be blunt, I don't actually disagree with any of what you've written there, its actually pretty much established fact!
Ireland basically saved Europe's ass with our educated clergy when the English were killing everyone and trying to colonise France.
We had specific laws and were a wealthy educated country etc.
But thats gone and been destroyed unfortunately.


We have to live in the present.
But what about the GFA?
And a UN peacekeeping force?


BUMP

junder

FTA69 wrote: »

junder wrote: »

First of all I have to say I find it gas that a member of a party associated with the UVF is now in the new "reformed" Royal Irish Regiment.



No it isn't. There is nothing necessarily bigoted about Unionism per se, but Loyalism is a different kettle of fish. Loyalism is a supremacist ideology with an inherent belief in the superiority of the Ulster Protestant over the native population. It has consistantly and reliably been a reactionary stream of thought, wedded to a constant siege mentality which has manifested itself in pogroms against Catholics and the formation of illegal and quasi-legal paramilitaries. (B-Specials, UVF etc).



I never said that anyway. When I say the British presence I don't mean Irish Unionists, I mean the actual British who retain sovereignty over a part of this country. Nobody believes Unionists should be shipped off or whatever, rather that they constituted a minority of Irish people and have no right to a veto over Irish sovereignty.



Good for you. And I mean that sincerely.

However, I have to ask, if you dislike sectarianism so much how come you were a member of a party which is aligned to an organisation founded upon sectarianism and which is currently selling hard drugs to your own people?



I'm not sectarian at all like, I couldn't care what religion soldiers are. Sure weren't the RIC Catholics too?



I'm not anyway.



Collaborating would be a better word.

Can you prove that the PUP are in any way involved in dealing drugs, Having known David Ervine i can assure you he very much dispised drug dealers he also dispised sectarinism and i think if you look at the PUP you will find that the principle of Anti Sectarinism is one of the core princples that the party was built on. And at the end of thae day if the PUP is so bad, howcome at David Ervines funeral there was Sinn Fein, the SDLP and the Irish Government being represented
Furthermore, if you find it such a gass that a someone who may have been a member of the PUP but never a member of the UVF being in the RIR would you also find it such a gass that a member of the IRA could end up as minster of justice and that we have a member of the IRA who is the deputy first minster of Northern ireland.
As for collerbating i am a british citzen in the British Army so again how can i be colleberating

prinz

So go take your frustrations out on the French ( ie Normans - better yet the Normans invaded France so go kill a few Scandinavian policemen - responsible for the Normans and the Vikings ), hell the Normans invaded England, so us and the English could get together and take them all on as payback. yawwwwwwwwn.

Oh and I didnt realise the Lloyd George forced every voter on this island to accept the Treaty, or the old Sinn Fein to accept it in the Dáil either. You do realize no Treaty = no Republic of Ireland at all.

junder

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Sorry oscar bravo ,just trying to point out something to people who say ,that they want to get on with their lives and not look to the past.

I don't think it's fair that groups like the orangemen ,can cause daily grief for people in northern ireland.
It obviously adds to the troubles.

Anyways sorry ,I won't indulge in this on the thread or forum.

Frankly being a member of the Apprentice Boys and having many family members in the Orange order i find your comments extremely insulting and very bigoted

prinz

FTA69 wrote: »

prinz wrote: »

They showed those dastardly Zulus alright, the rotten tyrants were armed to the teeth with spears and shields and all sorts of weapons of mass destruction. Not to mention the Indians, a people who were steeped in the tactics of terror before "Our Boys" arrived to sort them out and show them what for. And that's only the start of it.

Away up the yard and don't be annoying me.

Ever study demographics of the British Army and Navy? During the height of the colonial period the home country with the highest proportion of officers AND men in both services was Ireland. So go try that out.

Wheely

prinz wrote: »

As regards Iraq and Afghanistan, they are there defending basic human rights against the same scum as the RIRA. They are in Afghanistan with a UN mandate with almost 30 other countries contributing. The difference is the British have the balls to put their troops in the frontline.

The same goons who say that a PSNI officer cant do his job in peace are the same scum who would throw acid on girls faces for going to school. Its not political. Its immoral murder and terrorism.

I agree with the vast majority of what your saying but the dogs in the street know that the above is a vastly over-simplified explanation of the British presence in Afghanistan and Iraq. The absence of the UN mandate in relation to Iraq is also glaringly obvious in your post.

oscarBravo

junder wrote: »

Frankly being a member of the Apprentice Boys and having many family members in the Orange order i find your comments extremely insulting and very bigoted

Discussion of the Orange Order is OFF TOPIC.

Edit: as is discussion of the British involvement in Afghanistan & Iraq. This thread is about the cowardly murder of a policeman in Northern Ireland.

Wheely

FTA69 wrote: »

After Lloyd George threatened an "immediate and terrible war" if they didn't, pure democracy alright.

I love the way you choose the weaker arguments to respond to. Why not respond to oscar bravo. Where was Lloyd George and his threat of immediate and terrible war in 1998 when both the Republic and Northern Ireland voted in favour of retaining the partition, in our case by amending our Constitution. Pure democracy alright!

realismpol

Relax people your getting too carried away with this whole thing. Jez if the cira and real ira wanted to inflame tensions they certainly managed to do that. Lets be realistic here british troops are not going to return to the streets of northern ireland. They have much bigger priorities in afghanistan and iraq. Whilst not meaning to diminish people's lives in any way there were 3 people killed in northern ireland over the weekend, there were 33 killed today in one suicide attack today in baghdad alone. Lets put things in perspective ok.


Secondly what exactly is the goal of the real ira and cira if indeed they exist at all. To get the 6 counties back? And then you'll have 500,000 hostile unionists carrying out bombings and attacks on gardai and other republic of ireland based forces if they are forced into a united ireland. Obviously these people aren't looking at the big picture here as a lot of you commenting about 'they should get off our land' etc. I do agree that ireland should be united however not if your prepared to see civil war on the island between say 500,000 unionists and 4.5 million others... Not a great idea now really is it. The best method of getting a united ireland is actually the political process not through armed struggle. The PIRA learned this the hard way.

Im still of the opinion this is an inside job i find it hard to understand why the real ira would choose a time like now to start when they had 12 years to do so. Northern ireland is a guinea pig state used by the u.k to introduce legislation which they intend to
use on the mainland u.k. All is not what it seems.

RDM_83

oscarBravo wrote: »

Discussion of the Orange Order is OFF TOPIC.

Edit: as is discussion of the British involvement in Afghanistan & Iraq. This thread is about the cowardly murder of a policeman in Northern Ireland.

Rather than a brave murder?

FTA69

So go take your frustrations out on the French ( ie Normans - better yet the Normans invaded France so go kill a few Scandinavian policemen - responsible for the Normans and the Vikings ), hell the Normans invaded England, so us and the English could get together and take them all on as payback. yawwwwwwwwn.

Blah blah blah, more historical inaccuracies. By 1169 the Norman were identifying themselves as "Anglo-Normans" so to speak, and Henry II definitely saw himself as an English king expanding his writ.

Ever study demographics of the British Army and Navy? During the height of the colonial period the home country with the highest proportion of officers AND men in both services was Ireland. So go try that out.

What's your point? Do you think I sympathise with that or something? Perhaps as an Irishman I should be proud that "Our Boys" were off suppressing the "tyranny" of the Zulus and the "terror" of the Indians?

Junder,

Can you prove that the PUP are in any way involved in dealing drugs

Did I say they were? I said they were connected to the UVF which is dealing drugs and which is a sectarian organisation. I know that, and you know that. David Ervine even knew that. The fact is though, the more political people associated with militant Loyalism couldn't even get a vote in their own areas.

And at the end of thae day if the PUP is so bad, howcome at David Ervines funeral there was Sinn Fein, the SDLP and the Irish Government being represented

Ervine was an articulate and intelligent man, I have a degree of respect for him myself. I believe he was doing the right thing by his own people and this country in general, he was a loss. Perhaps what I respect him for the most is the fact he pointed out that Loyalist working people had continually been used by Big House Unionism and w*nkers like Ian Paisley.

Furthermore, if you find it such a gass that a someone who may have been a member of the PUP but never a member of the UVF being in the RIR would you also find it such a gass that a member of the IRA could end up as minster of justice and that we have a member of the IRA who is the deputy first minster of Northern ireland.

Believe me, I find McGuinness' current derision of armed struggle to be equally funny considering there was a time when he'd have loved to whack soldiers all day.

yoshytoshy

When things like this happen ,I sometimes find myself saying things I shouldn't. It's more got to do with the chaotic nature of things ,than my views on things.

Condolences to the families of the people killed ,hopefully we can all move on without letting this get the better of us.