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** Police officer shot dead in Armagh
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and that we could start afresh, and begin to trust the PSNI as a whole.
Personally I'll never trust any police force whose security agenda is dictated by MI5.
Dannyboy,Can I give a shout out to Osama too?
Eh? I'd bet you never even heard of the person in question before you stumbled across this thread, still you feel happy enough to make stupid assumptions about something you haven't the slightest clue about.
Go away and read a book or something lad, and don't be annoying peopl with ill-thought out rubbish.
:rolleyes:0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »What happened to that other stuff you were saying earlier mate?
Casualty of war and all that?
God, he edits his post only to come out with something that makes even less sense than his original post. Gas man... :rolleyes:
Pray tell when I was talking about "casualties of war"?
Merciful hour...0 -
So FTA, if he is charged and found guilty will you condemn his actions or make up some excuse for him or write it off as a political frame up.
On a seperate note aren't eirigi the ones who were convinced they had been bugged by MI5 because some one fond a device made by Ericsson in their car?0 -
Let me see if I can follow your logic: if a person is a member of organisation A, which has no connection with organisation B, then it's physically impossible for that person to be connected with organisation B?The Continuity IRA claimed this attack, Colin Duffy is a leading member of Éirigi which has absolutely no connection to that organisation or any other armed group for that matter.
Nope, doesn't add up.
Which is why Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams were arrested in a blaze of publicity?Basically the cops are lifting any prominent Republican...
Exactly what would the police achieve by doing this, apart from getting petrol-bombed by scum?...and using this attack as an excuse to do so, even though the cops know full well Duffy or the party he represents had f*ck all to do with it.
I see. Obviously "having a clue" extends to knowing everything there is to know about that person, including whether or not they have anything to do with an organisation that, by its nature, is clandestine and secret.No, unlike yourself I have a clue about the person in question.0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »So FTA, if he is charged and found guilty will you condemn his actions or make up some excuse for him or write it off as a political frame up.
If my aunt was a man she'd be my uncle.On a seperate note aren't eirigi the ones who were convinced they had been bugged by MI5 because some one fond a device made by Ericsson in their car?
No, that was the 32 County Sovereignty Movement who are connected to the Real IRA. Personally it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that such an organisation would be monitored by various intelligence agencies.
Oscar,Let me see if I can follow your logic: if a person is a member of organisation A, which has no connection with organisation B, then it's physically impossible for that person to be connected with organisation B?
Highly unlikely. You seem to believe that simply because the cops lifted him in connection to this that he's obviously up to no good, and the police are incapable of engaging in political policing. Duffy has sh*te all to do with the CIRA, this is common knowledge in Armagh and in Republican circles in general. You can be sure the cops know this as well. What they are trying to do is lump Duffy (and the wider Éirigi party) into this current "dissident threat" furore and it stinks to tell you the truth.Which is why Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams were arrested in a blaze of publicity?
Adams and McGuinness were the ones shouting from the rooftops about "traitors" and calling for arrests and imprisonment, hilarious considering up until a few years ago they were on the ruling body of an organisation that killed hundreds of cops.
By prominent Republicans I meant those who are opposed to the current status quo, not those shoring it up.I see. Obviously "having a clue" extends to knowing everything there is to know about that person, including whether or not they have anything to do with an organisation that, by its nature, is clandestine and secret.
Éirigi isn't a clandestine or secret organisation at all. The CIRA is, but Éirigi have nothing to do with them and nether does Collie Duffy in my opinion.0 -
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I have no idea who is and isn't a member of the CIRA - that's kinda sorta the point of it being a clandestine organisation. You, on the other hand, seem to have magically decided that there couldn't possibly be any reason whatsoever for this arrest other than political motivation, and have jumped to a conclusion.You seem to believe that simply because the cops lifted him in connection to this that he's obviously up to no good, and the police are incapable of engaging in political policing.
Ah, I see. The CIRA membership list is in wide circulation around those parts, yeah?Duffy has sh*te all to do with the CIRA, this is common knowledge in Armagh and in Republican circles in general.
Sounds reasonable. After all, every cop I know likes nothing better than to run the gauntlet of a several hundred scumbags throwing bricks and petrol bombs, it's what they do for jollies.You can be sure the cops know this as well. What they are trying to do is lump Duffy (and the wider Éirigi party) into this current "dissident threat" furore and it stinks to tell you the truth.
I know you have some sort of deep-seated idea with the very concept of a police force, but has it ever occurred to you that just occasionally, they might actually be operating on the basis of evidence?
Ah right, they're not Republicans if they disagree with you.Adams and McGuinness were the ones shouting from the rooftops about "traitors" and calling for arrests and imprisonment, hilarious considering up until a few years ago they were on the ruling body of an organisation that killed hundreds of cops.
By prominent Republicans I meant those who are opposed to the current status quo, not those shoring it up.
It's a bit of a leap from "I don't think he's a member of the CIRA" to "the dirty cozzers stitched him up because it's physically impossible for him to have done anything wrong".Éirigi isn't a clandestine or secret organisation at all. The CIRA is, but Éirigi have nothing to do with them and nether does Collie Duffy in my opinion.0 -
I have no idea who is and isn't a member of the CIRA - that's kinda sorta the point of it being a clandestine organisation. You, on the other hand, seem to have magically decided that there couldn't possibly be any reason whatsoever for this arrest other than political motivation, and have jumped to a conclusion.
The man was never affiliated to or supportive of any armed organisation, up until a few weeks ago he was a member of Éirigi, a group with no connection to any armed organisation and one which isn't supportive of armed action. It makes absolutely zero sense that he'd be involved in this, none at all. And the current trial by media going on at the moment is wrong, and one only has to look at the many examples that occurred during the recent conflict to see that.Ah, I see. The CIRA membership list is in wide circulation around those parts, yeah?
As I said, it's common knowledge who agrees with who and who is affiliated with what.Sounds reasonable. After all, every cop I know likes nothing better than to run the gauntlet of a several hundred scumbags throwing bricks and petrol bombs, it's what they do for jollies.
The reason he is probably being targeted (in my opinion) is because the last time there was a riot in Craigavon after the cops started kicking in doors and raiding houses he refused to condemn it. After that there was a whole bullsh*t furore in some sections of the media about how Éirigi was somehow encouraging or starting riots, something which is untrue.but has it ever occurred to you that just occasionally, they might actually be operating on the basis of evidence?
What evidence? You don't need any evidence at all under certain legislation to arrest someone and hold them for days for questioning. Whether you care to admit or not the security agenda for the north of Ireland is controlled by MI5, this includes policing matters that include "national security". The cops have continually played a political role in the north of Ireland, that role obviously hasn't changed when there seems a concerted effort to lump a peaceful political party in with those shooting the cops in order to discredit them.Ah right, they're not Republicans if they disagree with you.
They certainly aren't anti-GFA Republicans. Why would they be arrested "in a blaze of publicity" if they're actually actively administering British rule in this country?It's a bit of a leap from "I don't think he's a member of the CIRA" to "the dirty cozzers stitched him up because it's physically impossible for him to have done anything wrong".
I firmly believe the cops are up to no good regarding this arrest, it simply doesn't make any sense at all. None.0 -
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The man was never affiliated to or supportive of any armed organisation, up until a few weeks ago he was a member of Éirigi, a group with no connection to any armed organisation and one which isn't supportive of armed action. It makes absolutely zero sense that he'd be involved in this, none at all. And the current trial by media going on at the moment is wrong, and one only has to look at the many examples that occurred during the recent conflict to see that.
The reason he is probably being targeted (in my opinion) is because the last time there was a riot in Craigavon after the cops started kicking in doors and raiding houses he refused to condemn it. After that there was a whole bullsh*t furore in some sections of the media about how Éirigi was somehow encouraging or starting riots, something which is untrue.
What evidence? You don't need any evidence at all under certain legislation to arrest someone and hold them for days for questioning. Whether you care to admit or not the security agenda for the north of Ireland is controlled by MI5, this includes policing matters that include "national security". The cops have continually played a political role in the north of Ireland, that role obviously hasn't changed when there seems a concerted effort to lump a peaceful political party in with those shooting the cops in order to discredit them.
I firmly believe the cops are up to no good regarding this arrest, it simply doesn't make any sense at all. None.
Perhaps he's been nominated for The Nobel Peace Prize.0 -
..."never" since the cease-fire, in fairness.
True.
Camelot,Hmm, sounds like you might have some catching up to do, re the now very well respected PSNI.
I might also add that there is a Police Ombudsman in Northern Ireland.
What's your point caller? Name-change or no they remain an instrument that is used in the political process. It is MI5 who is in explicit control of the "security" agenda despite what Adams, Orde, O'Loan or whoever would like to portray.0 -
So FTA69 you have little or no faith in the Police then?, which leads me to ask "Are you saddened by the murder of the Policeman & the two soldiers last weekend"?0
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All deaths are upsetting, one of the soldiers killed was my age, and every Staurday I went to Wood Green where he was from. Chances are we went to a few of the same shops or the same cinema. I take no pleasure in the likes of his death at all.0
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The crime of 'Murder' carries a life sentence.0
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All deaths are upsetting, one of the soldiers killed was my age, and every Staurday I went to Wood Green where he was from. Chances are we went to a few of the same shops or the same cinema. I take no pleasure in the likes of his death at all.
Murder is the word you are lookibg for I believe0 -
perish the thought he might actully be gulity, surly arresting the wrong people is only going to play in to the hands of disserdents. These days the PSNI is under so much scruntinity that it cant afford to arrest the wrong people0
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My own business always bores me to death; I prefer other people's.Dannyboy,
Eh? I'd bet you never even heard of the person in question before you stumbled across this thread, still you feel happy enough to make stupid assumptions about something you haven't the slightest clue about.
I'd never heard of Osama Bin Laden before 9/11.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe hes ever been found guilty or convicted of anything?
Was Martin McGuinness ever convicted of terrorist activity after 1973?
Was Billy Wright ever convicted of terrorist activity or the 20 odd murders accounted to him?
The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.Go away and read a book or something lad, and don't be annoying people with ill-thought out rubbish.Pray tell when I was talking about "casualties of war"?
Merciful hour...Two soldiers and a cop being whacked won't change the fundamentals one bit. The pertinent question that these groups have failed to answer is how they are going to achieve Republican objectives with a campaign that isn't a tenth of the intesnity of the previous Provisional one?
If the IRA could bomb London every month, kill 800 of the crown forces etc, and still not succeed how is this current phase going to?This has certainly put a cat amongst the pigeons so to speak, although this was on the cards for a long time. I'm watching Sky News there now and all the Brit politicians are having kittens over it. Personally I don't think such attacks are going to achieve anything to be honest, it's a battle of ideas that needs to be won, stiffing a couple of Brits every couple of months isn't going to alter anything.Spot on. If you choose to buy into the all the macho-man rubbish on the TV and join an army you know full well is an occupying force in three countries then don't be stricken with surprise when someone in one of these countries decides to shoot at you.
It would appear the only thing in which you are consistent is your inconsistency.
My apologies if I have unfairly labelled you as one of the "foreign army - tough luck" crew, but your comments would seem to indicate that you're only problem with the killings is that they don't advance your cause.
Pray tell, where did one acquire such use of the English language?:rolleyes:
Merciful hour...
What does that have to do with anything?The man was never affiliated to or supportive of any armed organisation, up until a few weeks ago he was a member of Éirigi, a group with no connection to any armed organisation and one which isn't supportive of armed action. It makes absolutely zero sense that he'd be involved in this, none at all. And the current trial by media going on at the moment is wrong, and one only has to look at the many examples that occurred during the recent conflict to see that.
What do you know about policing or counter-terrorism?
Has it been implied that he is guilty of something?
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.As I said, it's common knowledge who agrees with who and who is affiliated with what.
I know people living in the middle of these areas (not Cork), I've asked about your comments and they've said you are brainwashed.
That is their comment, not mine.
And they are/were republicans
Were I not in contact with these people, I would be inclined to believe otherwise, because I have read it out of a forum or a book, much the same as you have.
If not, then from where did you get that information?
Furthermore, if its common knowledge as to who is doing what, why don't one of these 'freedom fighters' give a drop of the ol' valuable info to the PSNI?
Or does the freedom of innocent men not count?The reason he is probably being targeted (in my opinion) is because the last time there was a riot in Craigavon after the cops started kicking in doors and raiding houses he refused to condemn it. After that there was a whole bullsh*t furore in some sections of the media about how Éirigi was somehow encouraging or starting riots, something which is untrue.
You don't suppose it would have something to do with questioning?
Indoctrination of young people or anything like that?
Have you heard much about the UN/Amnesty International pleas to halt the indoctrination of young people into militant causes.
I can't find the link at the moment, but I read it quite recently.
http://www.birw.org/Policing%20board.html
http://www.birw.org/Jurists%20Panel.html (See Article 11)
Shall we have a look at their homepage then?They certainly aren't anti-GFA Republicans. Why would they be arrested "in a blaze of publicity" if they're actually actively administering British rule in this country?
http://www.eirigi.org/latest/latest150309.html
“éirígí, through our Campaign for a British Withdrawal, will be hammering home the point that the British government and its armed forces are not welcome in Ireland, in whatever guise they come.”
Note the picture above the comment... "British Death Squads out of Ireland"I firmly believe the cops are up to no good regarding this arrest, it simply doesn't make any sense at all. None.
Why doesn't it make sense?
Pray tell, hast thou ever heard of indoctrination?
Are you aware of the ages of some of the people arrested/questioned?
http://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/the-security-service-in-northern-ireland.html
The PSNI still provides the operational police response in countering terrorism and protecting the whole community of Northern Ireland.
I don't claim to be an expert on any of this. I'm getting my info from people who live in the middle of all this mayhem and the odd bit of reading on the internet.
So far, it looks like the PSNI are doing a bloody good job.
Where are you getting your information from?0 -
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I'd never heard of Osama Bin Laden before 9/11.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe hes ever been found guilty or convicted of anything?
No, but he has openly admitted that he and his organisation are directly responsible for a number of attacks. He isn't exactly denying anything like, there's no comparison between Bin Laden and Colin Duffy to be fair.Was Billy Wright ever convicted of terrorist activity or the 20 odd murders accounted to him?
Why do you think he was resident in Long Kesh prison when the INLA killed him?My apologies if I have unfairly labelled you as one of the "foreign army - tough luck" crew, but your comments would seem to indicate that you're only problem with the killings is that they don't advance your cause.
I don't think I'm being inconsistant at all. As I said, I wasn't gloating over these attacks at all. I think it is sad when anyone gets killed for whatever reason. Pointing out that those who join an army engaged in conflict around the world are in danger of getting shot by someone isn't contradictory to that. That's just fact.What do you know about policing or counter-terrorism?
Plenty.Has it been implied that he is guilty of something?
Yes it has, by some sections of the media and others who are trying to portray Duffy and the party he was formerly a member of as being involved in these attacks. Something patently untrue.I know people living in the middle of these areas, I've asked about your comments and they've said you are brainwashed.
That is their comment, not mine.
And they are/were republicans
I couldn't give two brown ones about what random people I don't know say about me to be honest. I don't see how I'm brainwashed because I believe Duffy had nothing to do with this at all.Have you heard much about the UN/Amnesty International pleas to halt the indoctrination of young people into militant causes.
I can't find the link at the moment, but I read it quite recently.
Indoctrination of young people happens all over the world, it happens as much in the British Army and the cops as much as it does in Republican organisations. "Indoctrination" is a very blasé term to throw out to be honest.Shall we have a look at their homepage then?
I was referring to Sinn Féin, not Éirigi.Why doesn't it make sense?
Pray tell, hast thou ever heard of indoctrination?
Are you aware of the ages of some of the people arrested/questioned?
What has that got to do with Colin Duffy?Where are you getting your information from?
Personal experience with the people in question.0 -
I actually agree with you here surprisingly.Indoctrination of young people happens all over the world, it happens as much in the British Army and the cops as much as it does in Republican organisations. "Indoctrination" is a very blasé term to throw out to be honest.
The difference is that young loyalists aren't running around killing anyone. Yet.
Young republicans already have tho.0 -
You know I have read back through some of your other posts FTA, there is no doubting it, you are clearly an intelligent fella.
That is why I cannot understand your inability to condemn these people.
Why do you think this is? Leftover hostility?
Believe me, i know well that the British government have been up to no good in the past.
Human Rights Watch
UN Submission on ICCPR
Helsinki Watch
Amnesty International
FONT=times new roman]BIRW Submissions to UN Special Rapporteur[/FONT] on Freedom of Religion 2007
International League for Human Rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6285101.stm
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/collusion/chron.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6281829.stm
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/collusion/docs/panorama230602.htm
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/collusion/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-177123/British-collusion-Irish-killing.html
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/01/28/story20531.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bogside”I think it is important to make it clear that this collusion between Loyalist paramilitaries such as Robin Jackson and my RUC colleagues and me was taking place with the full knowledge of my superiors.”Statement by John Weir 3rd February 1999
There is a list of collusion as long as my arm there.
But don't the British government have bigger fish to fry?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/4780970/British-intelligence-officials-colluded-with-torture-of-UK-citizens-abroad.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/guilty-britain-admits-collusion-new-torture-claims-emerge-1634735.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/22/torture-pakistan-human-rights :
Lets be honest, why would the Brits give a sh1te about the North anymore?
They've just spent billions rebuilding it and the last thing they want is another war.
They've handed control over to a DUP/SF government and the PSNI going through reform and full of Catholics.
Some of the things the likes of Alex Maskey and co. have been doing are highly commendable.
I understand your earlier post about Normalisation etc., but aren't the Brits too busy fighting wars in far off lands to even bother with the North?
What do you really believe has sparked all this nonsense off again?
What is the TRUE motivation of the likes of the RIRA/CIRA?
Most of the time, it looks like the British government just want to wash their hands of the peace process.
And the RIRA/CIRA just want long and permanent war.
And from what I'm told by people living in this area, it has zip to do with politics, and everything to do with power grabs and drug trade.
Why would you suggest they have picked up this fella Colin Duffy?
What is their real motivation?0 -
That is why I cannot understand your inability to condemn these people.
I don't support them but I won't condemn them, the primary reason being I would be nothing but a hypocrite if I did. I agree with the 1916 Rising, with the Border Campaign and I agreed with the Provisional IRA as well. To turn around and start condemning attacks on the crown forces now would be inconsistant to say the least.Lets be honest, why would the Brits give a sh1te about the North anymore?
They've just spent billions rebuilding it and the last thing they want is another war.
The answer is contained in your question to tell you the truth. The fact they spent 25 years here fighting a war, murdering their own citizens and facilitating the Loyalist death squads; not to mention the billions they've spent here reflects the fact that they do have an interest here and that they're willing to defend that through force of arms if necessary.
The Brits don't want a war here at all, they never did. What they've always wanted is a stable Ireland over which they have influence. That's why they've always sought to placate the Irish with Land Acts, Home Rule Acts etc, as you said, they've bigger fish to fry. It doesn't mean they have any intention of disengaging from this country though.I understand your earlier post about Normalisation etc., but aren't the Brits too busy fighting wars in far off lands to even bother with the North?
True, the last thing they want is their already stretched resources being diverted into another low-intensity conflict in Ireland.What do you really believe has sparked all this nonsense off again?
What is the TRUE motivation of the likes of the RIRA/CIRA?
The fact is that a physical force tradition has always existed in Ireland and in Irish Republicanism. Sometimes it is big other times it is small, but it has always been there; the CIRA and RIRA are simply a current manifestation of the fact there will always be people who believe in armed actions to achieve Irish unity. It's that simply really.And from what I'm told by people living in this area, it has zip to do with politics, and everything to do with power grabs and drug trade.
Put it this way, if they were interested in making money from drugs how would shooting cops and soldiers facilitate that goal? If they were in it for personal gain they wouldn't bother putting themselves at risk or bother with politics at all. Like the drug dealers in Cork or Dublin they'd just sell drugs and wouldn't bother with any political trappings.0 -
I don't support them but I won't condemn them, the primary reason being I would be nothing but a hypocrite if I did. I agree with the 1916 Rising, with the Border Campaign and I agreed with the Provisional IRA as well. To turn around and start condemning attacks on the crown forces now would be inconsistant to say the least.
The answer is contained in your question to tell you the truth. The fact they spent 25 years here fighting a war, murdering their own citizens and facilitating the Loyalist death squads; not to mention the billions they've spent here reflects the fact that they do have an interest here and that they're willing to defend that through force of arms if necessary.
The Brits don't want a war here at all, they never did. What they've always wanted is a stable Ireland over which they have influence. That's why they've always sought to placate the Irish with Land Acts, Home Rule Acts etc, as you said, they've bigger fish to fry. It doesn't mean they have any intention of disengaging from this country though.
True, the last thing they want is their already stretched resources being diverted into another low-intensity conflict in Ireland.
The fact is that a physical force tradition has always existed in Ireland and in Irish Republicanism. Sometimes it is big other times it is small, but it has always been there; the CIRA and RIRA are simply a current manifestation of the fact there will always be people who believe in armed actions to achieve Irish unity. It's that simply really.
Put it this way, if they were interested in making money from drugs how would shooting cops and soldiers facilitate that goal? If they were in it for personal gain they wouldn't bother putting themselves at risk or bother with politics at all. Like the drug dealers in Cork or Dublin they'd just sell drugs and wouldn't bother with any political trappings.
Yes its only the loyalists that are the evils ones and the provies were just good ole boy that never shot or blew up any inocent people in thier entire compaign :rolleyes:0 -
I don't support them but I won't condemn them, the primary reason being I would be nothing but a hypocrite if I did. I agree with the 1916 Rising, with the Border Campaign and I agreed with the Provisional IRA as well. To turn around and start condemning attacks on the crown forces now would be inconsistant to say the least.
The use of the term 'Crown Forces' caught my eye here, its like something out of the history books, and you also say that wont condem the recent murders or the murderers, & that you agreed with what the Provo's did over the 35 years of the Troubles!
I am lost for words really, this is your mindset, its your consience, and its obviously the way you have been indoctrinated over the course of your life, and I feel sad for you really, I mean to say, you cant even see right from wrong, you dont see the sad loss of the Policemans family, or the greiving of the young Soldiers families, you cant see the murderers for what they are, in the same way as the rest of us can.
If we didnt know where you stood before on Terrorism, we certainly do now.
How sad that this mindset still exists in some.0 -
I don't support them but I won't condemn them, the primary reason being I would be nothing but a hypocrite if I did. I agree with the 1916 Rising, with the Border Campaign and I agreed with the Provisional IRA as well. To turn around and start condemning attacks on the crown forces now would be inconsistant to say the least.
But why?
Do you not agree that they are pushing away a United Ireland forever?
The GFA says it can only go 1 of 2 ways.
I agree with the 1916 rising and Michael Collins and the War of Independence, etc.
I view this as a complete reversal of the progress made in the last decade.
I view this as a direct attack on a United Ireland and an effort to prolong British Rule.
So I don't consider it in the least bit hypocritical.
Trying to speed up unification by killing soldiers and police, is not unlike trying to run faster by cutting your foot off.
You yourself said that if the PIRA could not do it with a sustained campaign of far more targetted violence and destruction (docklands), then how could the RIRA seek to do anything.
I think the financial facts prove that, that is anything but the truth.The answer is contained in your question to tell you the truth. The fact they spent 25 years here fighting a war, murdering their own citizens and facilitating the Loyalist death squads; not to mention the billions they've spent here reflects the fact that they do have an interest here and that they're willing to defend that through force of arms if necessary.
The North only has a GDP of 14.2 Billion per annum.
The British are spending that much and more just on construction.
This doesn't take into account their armed forces or intelligence services, subvention to the Northern Irish Parliament or any of the other colossal bills.
And this more than anything would seem to suggest the opposite is true:
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9082.html
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Britain is teetering on the edge of the bankruptcy abyss.
Many of my English friends have said they are sick of paying for the North, paying high taxes and crazy petrol prices for a bunch of people who have nothing to do with them and don't belong in their country anyway.
From what I've seen, public opinion has never been so strongly against subsidising the Northern Welfare State.The Brits don't want a war here at all, they never did. What they've always wanted is a stable Ireland over which they have influence. That's why they've always sought to placate the Irish with Land Acts, Home Rule Acts etc, as you said, they've bigger fish to fry. It doesn't mean they have any intention of disengaging from this country though.
I'm don't intend to come across as argumentative here, I'm just asking you for some kind of evidence, because I honestly don't understand.
All the facts seem to show me that the opposite is true.
I've even heard Unionists saying that the British government are cowards, and they are abandoning them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7938812.stm
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article7526.htmlTrue, the last thing they want is their already stretched resources being diverted into another low-intensity conflict in Ireland.The fact is that a physical force tradition has always existed in Ireland and in Irish Republicanism. Sometimes it is big other times it is small, but it has always been there; the CIRA and RIRA are simply a current manifestation of the fact there will always be people who believe in armed actions to achieve Irish unity. It's that simply really.
Yes, but the physical force tradition was always focused,controlled and measured. The RIRA strike me as the cowboys of the terrorist world and you and 7 other people both on the internet and real life are the only people I have not heard condemn them (I understand you say you don't support them, just saying that I've only witnessed 8 people not condemn them)
Given that they haven't attacked any economic targets in England, it seems that their problem lies at the feet of the British Military.
But why now?
What has changed?
Why didn't they do something 5 years ago?
And the CIRA - they've always been yellow ba$tards, even if they are terrorists. Something made a point the other day - the big news was that the CIRA had actually fired a shot.Put it this way, if they were interested in making money from drugs how would shooting cops and soldiers facilitate that goal? If they were in it for personal gain they wouldn't bother putting themselves at risk or bother with politics at all. Like the drug dealers in Cork or Dublin they'd just sell drugs and wouldn't bother with any political trappings.
By destabilising the region and gaining troops and trying (but failing beyond all comprehension of the word failure) to gain some public support.
Most of the protection rackets now owned by people linked to Pro State elements in the Provos. If you are opposed to the GFA you have absolutely no chance of gaining employment in any these.
Areas like West Belfast are corrupt to the core, financial aid and investment is siphoned off by those the Stormont loyalists.
Peace time has been highly profitable for the PIRA and loyalists, and highly unprofitable for the RIRA/CIRA and anti-treaty side.
Above all else, what puzzles me about the motive you assign to them is the fact that they planted a pipe bomb outside Sinn Fein's HQ, why would they do that?0 -
The use of the term 'Crown Forces' caught my eye here, its like something out of the history books
They still call themselves "Her Majesty' Force", "HMS..." etc. The UK is a monarchy if I recall correctly. You're talking rubbish.that you agreed with what the Provo's did over the 35 years of the Troubles!
Yes I do. Apologies if I don't adopt a West Brit mindset or agree with your skewed analysis of history.If we didnt know where you stood before on Terrorism, we certainly do now.
More drama. To be honest you didn't address any of the points I made, in fact you've simply come out with warbling nonsense about how I'm indoctrinated and other complete crap. When you're able to actually engage in a debate as opposed to spouting "woe betide" platitudes come back to me.0 -
But why?
Do you not agree that they are pushing away a United Ireland forever?
I don't think are pushing it away any farther than it already is, but they certainly aren't going to achieve one either. Only by becoming a grass-roots led, representative and relevant political movement in Ireland can Republicanism succeed. Accepting capitalism and the GFA won't lead to Irish unity, but neither will shooting people every few months. That's my position on the issue.I agree with the 1916 rising
Why? Basically the Rising was as a result of tiny minority, no more than a couple of hundred men deciding to take up arms in contravention to the wishes of the vast majority of the Irish people. More Irish people died in British uniform on the Somme in a week than died for the Republic throughout the past 100 years. How is it acceptable for the 1916 rebels to kill people off their own bat? Or is it just it was so long ago that you view it in a nostalgic sense instead of the bloodbath it actually was?You yourself said that if the PIRA could not do it with a sustained campaign of far more targetted violence and destruction (docklands), then how could the RIRA seek to do anything.
They can't. Which is why I disagree with armed struggle.I think the financial facts prove that, that is anything but the truth.
So it isn't true that the Brits fought a 25 year war, murdered their own citizens and injected billions into the gaff? All that for a place you're telling me they're dying to get rid of? That doesn't make a blind bit of sense.
One Republican currently in Portlaoise said this in an interview, I believe there is merit to a lot of his argument.Britain has conducted a brutal and dirty war in our country over the past thirty years. Britain has armed, trained and directed pro-British death squads. Britain has murdered hundreds of Irish nationals. Britain has been found guilty of inflicting torture and inhuman and degrading treatment upon Irish prisoners before international courts. This war has clearly tarnished Britain's international reputation. On the financial front Britain injects an annual subvention of £4bn into the north. It has spent over £60bn since 1979. Is it enduring all of this out of the goodness of its heart? To protect the "democratic rights" of one million unionists?
In the long run Britain is prepared to maintain a normalised and reformed six-county state in perpetuity. Some have argued the British establishment is fearful that a withdrawal from Ireland could radicalise Welsh and Scottish nationalism and precipitate the future dismemberment of the so-called United Kingdom. There may be something in this. But one shouldn't discount the British establishment's profound hostility towards Irish separatism and its deep-seated commitment to anti-democratic unionism, all of which are continued manifestations of its age-old imperialist mindset. The British establishment would also be fearful of the radicalising effects of unity within Ireland. So, for various reasons, Britain has a political interest in remaining in Ireland.
The strategic question is an interesting one. In 1987 Adams secretly presented a republican questionnaire to Tom King via Fr Alec Reid. All of this is well-documented in Ed Maloney's A Secret History of the IRA. The first item on Adams' questionnaire asked: What is the nature of the British government's interest in Ireland? The response declared that Britain has "no political, military, strategic, or economic interest in staying in Ireland". King subsequently informed Maloney that he never actually saw the finished written response. Consequently Maloney concluded that MI5 - and not any British politician - penned the reply. This debate then entered the public domain in 1989 when Peter Brooke famously declared that "the British government has no selfish, strategic or economic interest in Ireland". Patrick Mayhew reiterated this formula as late as May/June 2005 in a History Ireland interview.
Were these declarations of strategic neutrality genuine? Or were they a ruse designed to strengthen the hand of Adams and McGuinness? Well, published British policy documents contradict these public declarations of strategic neutrality. Throughout the Cold War British Foreign Office documents continually stressed Ireland's strategic importance for the British state, particularly with regard to the protection of shipping in the approaches to Britain. Has the end of the Cold War rendered these strategic concerns redundant? An interesting post-Cold War analysis was provided by GR Sloan, the Deputy Head of Strategic Studies at the Britannia Royal Naval College in Dartmouth, in a 1997 book entitled The Geopolitics of Anglo-Irish Relations in the 20th Century. Sloan believes the end of the Cold War has not diminished Ireland's strategic importance. Indeed Sloan encourages the British government to continue to pursue what he refers to as a "unique geopolitical dualism" which he believes is based on the assumption of being able to differentiate between a strategic policy enunciated for the purposes of political consumption in the north, namely, to send a signal to the provisional movement, and the necessity of maintaining partition to ensure the continued membership of a part of Ireland in the NATO Alliance. Sloan concluded that this "geopolitical dualism" looks likely to underpin British strategic policy for some time to come. So despite public pronouncements to the contrary, one shouldn't dismiss Ireland's strategic importance to certain elements within the British military establishmentMany of my English friends have said they are sick of paying for the North, paying high taxes and crazy petrol prices for a bunch of people who have nothing to do with them and don't belong in their country anyway.
I lived in England for years. The fact is the average person on the street couldn't give a flying f*ck about Ireland or the Irish. Similarly they couldn't care less about Afghanistan or its people etc. The majority of them weren't keen on going off to Iraq either, but the British government actually told them blatant lies to garner support. There is a big gulf between the establishment of a country and its people.Yes, but the physical force tradition was always focused,controlled and measured.
When? Like when the 1798 Rebels butchered loads of Protestants in Wexford? Or when the IRB were planting dynamite to kill civilians in London? Or when in our own city Florrie O'Donoghue's men threw a Mill bomb into a pub? The IRA of the 1920s weren't shooting water pistols like, all war and conflict is a dirty and messy business. If you think previous generations of Republicans were above brutality or crime then you're very much mistaken.Given that they haven't attacked any economic targets in England, it seems that their problem lies at the feet of the British Military.
They planted a bomb at the BBC offices as well as firing an RPG 22 rocket at the MI6 headquarters in London. The only reason they haven't mounted such a campaign is because they lack the capability, not the will. That having been said, up until recently I thought they were incapable of attacking the British Army and I was wrong about that.But why now?
What has changed?
Why didn't they do something 5 years ago?
Because they were full of touts and half of their key people were in jail.Something made a point the other day - the big news was that the CIRA had actually fired a shot.
The CIRA were never great military types.Peace time has been highly profitable for the PIRA and loyalists, and highly unprofitable for the RIRA/CIRA and anti-treaty side.
There have indeed been people within the IRA engaged in crime, most of the time this was addressed but the fact is Republican organisations have always had those who abuse their position, stretching back centuries.
As I said, if you wanted to make money off drugs etc you'd be better off just selling them rather than drawing the state down on top of you. I know those involved in the drug trade in our own city, and its certainly not Republicans.0 -
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The sad truth hurts (FTA69) when its put to you in black & white, doesn't it.
Nuff said (to you).0
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