A Naieve Question.

fatboypee

I've a remarkably naieve question and please forgive me if this has been asked ad-nauseum..

I was thinking, is there ANY excuse for ANY government to issue such a budget in response to the *ahem* 'global' downturn as is predicted ?

By which I mean, the road leading to our own crisis here in this country, in the glorious view of hindsight (perhaps), can be very well signposted and has been and, given that this political party has overseen both the rise, and demise of our economy and now, in my humble opinion is very likely to kick seven bells of living sh1te out of our pockets due to their ineptitudes and financial mis managements, I wonder, on moral grounds if nothing else, is there really any excuse ?

In my view, we trust a government to do right by us, to spend our taxes and manage our country for us (and i'm making no political overtures towards any party when I ask this question) but global recession or not, can this current financial downturn not have been managed far far better up to and preceeding this situation ?

To my mind, there is no excuse and I'm stuck for words at the ineptitude (bordering crass stupidity) that has led us here and for which I / we will have to pay in the end....

Is that naieve ? Sorry if so...

FBP.

peasant

Naive? I don't think so.

Jul 4, 2007, 14:21

Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said during an address to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) biennial conference in Bundoran, County Donegal this morning, that he did not know how people who moaned about the economy did not "commit suicide".

"Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something," Ahern said

.

That was two years ago that all sorts of people were raising the red flag enough for the Taiseach to make a glib remark, but still do nothing about it.

in fact, he went on and spouted the following:

There are those who believe that our recent successes are an illusion. That they will disappear and we will be back to the natural order, an Ireland of unemployment and under-achievement. Some of these voices were telling us, not so long ago, that our approach was all wrong, that social partnership was a mistake, that centralised pay bargaining could not deliver. They were wrong then, and they are still wrong.

source:
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_1010514.shtml

Dannyboy83

I hope AineMolloy1 won't mind, but I've pasted her post here to show you what she wrote on the 25th of May 2007.

Its from the thread entitled "What does Bertie have to do to lose popularity?"

ainemolloy1 wrote: »

Very disappointed to hear the early results on RTE. I don't have a problem with Fianna Fail per se. But i do have a problem with a party that is in bed with vested interest that keep our country from progressing. I always just vote for the smaller parties for the sake of democracy. 15 years with the same old faces is no good for democracy.

Every time I turn on the radio I hear people complaining (and rightly so ) about the allowance for carers, the apartheid health care system, the crammed prefabs that pass for classrooms, the rip off prices, the bad planning etc etc...

But I wonder where all that anger goes on polling day. For me Bertie is the master politician as he has made a career out of sitting on the fence. He is now it seems untouchable, and it reminds me of in previous years when politicians with very dubious characters regarding their tax affairs ,crooks basically topped the poll in their areas, I always found that very bizarre. Not that I think Bertie is a crook, it's the power and not the money Bertie likes.

So finally here are the 3 ways Bertie could fall out of favour with the Paddy's over the next 5 years:

1. Take off of German Economy = interests rate going through the roof = property crash (note there has been around 40 property booms in Europe since WWII, all crashed and burned, no soft landings) = horrendous recession as the vast amount of new jobs in the last 5 years, for men have been directly in the construction industry, and for women in the public services ( paid for by property related taxes) = Bye Bye Bertie

2. Value of the dollar slides to 1.5 against the Euro = much higher costs for US multinationals for no added productivity (nurses?). (2,000,000 people working in Ireland, 100,000 in multinationals producing over 85% of exports, what the heck is everybody else doing?) = Bye Bye US multinationals = Bye Bye Bertie

3. Equalization of EU corporate taxes, new french premier is making noises about this. (Irish politicians saying they will veto this, but if France starts making enough noise and Germany does the same , methinks Irish politicians will be shouting at the wind.) = Bye Bye US multinationals = Bye Bye Bertie

But nobody wants to hear this of course, and the majority of economists put on the telly / radio work for banks (mortgages?).

Of course if none of this happens in 5 years time, you will see a 20 foot statue of a happy go lucky Bertie with an empty suitcase, except for his lunch money on O'Connell street. Of course you'll have to pay a toll to get on to O'Connell street then.

Seriously though I voted against the government as the opposition were saying (quietly) the same kind of things. I think it's a missed opportunity!!!

Dannyboy83

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53313890&postcount=12
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53314221&postcount=19

fatboypee

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53313890&postcount=12
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53314221&postcount=19

Thanks for the links, As you can probably tell, I'm new to the politics forum, just this issue is beginning to grate on me, and moreso, is that there IS NO culpability, there IS NO acknowledgement of the fk-up that went on. To boot, there IS NO opposition should that anger return one fine polling day that will lead us in any better direction.

I listened incredulously to the speeches of the Taoseach when he stuck the knife squarely between the shoulder blades of the banks (as it should be I agree), yet fails to accept his (as minister for finance) policies acted in collusion to create this situation.

I listened dumbfounded when the revelations of the now minister for finance regarding Anglo Irish Bank and I wonder what other skeletons are buried there or thereabouts, the fallout of which we will never be 100% told about.

I listen aghast at speculation that my taxes will now increase AGAIN due to a shortfall in the government's finances due to lemming-like spending plans founded on revenue from one (or maybe two) core industries that everyone knew are short term.

The list obviously can go on.

But my point is this. If as Franklin said "We get the Government we deserve",
I'm wondering 'how' democracy in this country can change this, as, even if we voted right now, today, en-masse to change our leadership, who would step up ? And in all honesty, would they have any more ability than is currently, clearly not there ?

ONe abiding image runs through my head and makes me smile though, I can imagine Bertie just looking into the Dail at Cowen and laughing his bolls off...

FBP.

Sleepy

For me, the depressing fact is that it's our system that's wrong. We're hugely over-represented and that, imho, causes most of the problems. Too many small-town politicians have too many favours to be returned, cost too much in salarys, expenses etc. and simply spend too much time on local issues instead of doing their jobs and running the country.

maxwell smart

The only way to get rid of the vested interests in to have a true executive running the country.
Basically we should: half the number of TD's, then change the constitution so that we abolish all ministers and junior ministers.
The Taoiseach then appoints non elected people from the private sector, on performance related salaries, to run each department. If they get the results, they get the bucks.
These guys and girls would only be answerable to the Taoiseach, who in turn is answerable to the Dail. This way they could get on with the job at hand, i.e. rescuing us!!

Dr Galen

maxwell smart wrote: »

The only way to get rid of the vested interests in to have a true executive running the country.
Basically we should: half the number of TD's, then change the constitution so that we abolish all ministers and junior ministers.
The Taoiseach then appoints non elected people from the private sector, on performance related salaries, to run each department. If they get the results, they get the bucks.
These guys and girls would only be answerable to the Taoiseach, who in turn is answerable to the Dail. This way they could get on with the job at hand, i.e. rescuing us!!

isn't what your suggesting here pretty much what the USA does? and aren't they fecked up as well?

the solutions the problems we face both in the public and private sector are much much more complicated than a few lines on a discussion board. Hiring a load of people from the private sector to head up the civil service will not fix things. Remember shady dealings happen in all walks of life whether public or private. What should happen is that people are appointed on merits, that they can do the job and that a proper system of performance measurement is created so that they and their depts can be judged, otherwise we go back to the short-termist, populist, ticky box mentality that is haunting us at the minute.

This is not something that can be done in the short term, reform is greatly needed, but needs to be carried out dilligently, with clear goals in mind, by qualified people,unfortunately, the shower we have in power right now are not inspiring confidence

Dannyboy83

fatboypee wrote: »

Thanks for the links, As you can probably tell, I'm new to the politics forum, just this issue is beginning to grate on me, and moreso, is that there IS NO culpability, there IS NO acknowledgement of the fk-up that went on. To boot, there IS NO opposition should that anger return one fine polling day that will lead us in any better direction.

I listened incredulously to the speeches of the Taoseach when he stuck the knife squarely between the shoulder blades of the banks (as it should be I agree), yet fails to accept his (as minister for finance) policies acted in collusion to create this situation.

I listened dumbfounded when the revelations of the now minister for finance regarding Anglo Irish Bank and I wonder what other skeletons are buried there or thereabouts, the fallout of which we will never be 100% told about.

I listen aghast at speculation that my taxes will now increase AGAIN due to a shortfall in the government's finances due to lemming-like spending plans founded on revenue from one (or maybe two) core industries that everyone knew are short term.

The list obviously can go on.

But my point is this. If as Franklin said "We get the Government we deserve",
I'm wondering 'how' democracy in this country can change this, as, even if we voted right now, today, en-masse to change our leadership, who would step up ? And in all honesty, would they have any more ability than is currently, clearly not there ?

ONe abiding image runs through my head and makes me smile though, I can imagine Bertie just looking into the Dail at Cowen and laughing his bolls off...

FBP.

I'm new to the forum myself mate.
And in the short time I've been here, there have been countless threads on this subject. The conclusion is that there seems to be sod all we do, except vote.

So for democracy to change, you, I and all the other people have to put Fianna Fail in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights, or substantially longer and really punish them badly at the voting booths.
Everyone else in government is keeping their head down and letting Brain Clow(e)n take all the flak because they don't want the sh1t to stick to them.
Much as I loathe Willie goebbels O'Dea, I have to give it to him that he has backed Brain Clow(e)n and Brain HenaHen when nobody else will.
Hopefully, that will be his downfall too.

Fact is, FF have been in power for 20 years and there is not much new blood in their ranks. Even Napoleon was exiled after his Old Guard were destroyed. If a new party got in, they wouldn't be doing trips of the world in their Gulfstream jet for a start, or would be hesitant at least. But after a term or two, they would get complacent aswell.

And its not just the electorate are angry.
The Lord mayor of Limerick was on the Late Late show 3 weeks ago and lost the plot about what is happening.

As for El Berto, he is just the mono-rail man in my opinion.
He has been looking for the next Shelbyville down around Central/Southern America.

You should have a look back through the threads over the last 4 weeks, there have been some interesting suggestions on reform, such as removing TD's unvouched expenses, tying their salary to the average national wage, abolishing the Seanad etc.

Dannyboy83

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

isn't what your suggesting here pretty much what the USA does? and aren't they fecked up as well?

the solutions the problems we face both in the public and private sector are much much more complicated than a few lines on a discussion board. Hiring a load of people from the private sector to head up the civil service will not fix things. Remember shady dealings happen in all walks of life whether public or private. What should happen is that people are appointed on merits, that they can do the job and that a proper system of performance measurement is created so that they and their depts can be judged, otherwise we go back to the short-termist, populist, ticky box mentality that is haunting us at the minute.

This is not something that can be done in the short term, reform is greatly needed, but needs to be carried out dilligently, with clear goals in mind, by qualified people,unfortunately, the shower we have in power right now are not inspiring confidence

The other problem is that, while there are good people in the PS, there are bad people too who seem to determine the culture oddly enough. (A reversal of the private sector ime)
And if you put fresh veg with bad, the fresh veg spoils faster.

There was a post recently about someone in the PS who was a good programmer and was getting grief for working too hard.
So he did a weeks work on Monday and sh1tarsed about for a week to avoid the aggro from his colleagues.

fatboypee

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm new to the forum myself mate.
And in the short time I've been here, there have been countless threads on this subject. The conclusion is that there seems to be sod all we do, except vote.

So for democracy to change, you, I and all the other people have to put Fianna Fail in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights, or substantially longer and really punish them badly at the voting booths.
Everyone else in government is keeping their head down and letting Brain Clow(e)n take all the flak because they don't want the sh1t to stick to them.
Much as I loathe Willie goebbels O'Dea, I have to give it to him that he has backed Brain Clow(e)n and Brain HenaHen when nobody else will.
Hopefully, that will be his downfall too.

Fact is, FF have been in power for 20 years and there is not much new blood in their ranks. Even Napoleon was exiled after his Old Guard were destroyed. If a new party got in, they wouldn't be doing trips of the world in their Gulfstream jet for a start, or would be hesitant at least. But after a term or two, they would get complacent aswell.

And its not just the electorate are angry.
The Lord mayor of Limerick was on the Late Late show 3 weeks ago and lost the plot about what is happening.

As for El Berto, he is just the mono-rail man in my opinion.
He has been looking for the next Shelbyville down around Central/Southern America.

You should have a look back through the threads over the last 4 weeks, there have been some interesting suggestions on reform, such as removing TD's unvouched expenses, tying their salary to the average national wage, abolishing the Seanad etc.

I shall take a look, to your point on the rise of an oppostion and what they would do if elected, I honestly fail to see where such a morally obliging opposition would emerge from ?

Certainly in my view there are NO credible alternatives to the current encumbents, those as you point out, with relatively strong back-bones are and will remain self-serving, as that is the model upon which the political forum of this country had grown.

I'm not advocating revolution, nor am I suggesting we need root and branch socialism, but until the majority reason for wanting to be a politician / leader of this country is centred squarely in the majority's interest over the clear hedonism of tripping the powerlines I remain unconvinced that anything will change dramatically.

What I find interesting of late, upon reviewing the past few years is that I think I began to feel disenfranchised by all the money and wealth around me ? I noticed, especially in the last two years, that everyone and his dog seemed to have a newer car, a bigger finer house nice watches and sunglasses, not to mention eating out all the time.. I looked on the estate agent sites and saw almost every house in my area was for sale at over 350k. I don't earn shabby money, yet I could not afford any of this so began to feel poor in a rich context ?

My point here is simply that we have all become acustomed to having nice things, alot of people, without actually paying for them up-front. This is so with the goverment, relying on revenue from industries doomed to be short term, blustering it all away as "a global recession" and hoping nobody cops what pile of pr1cks we have to manage our country.

The singluar, most salient point however is this. THEY DO NOT ACCEPT THEY ARE, OR HAVE DONE ANYTHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE MESS.

What's worse, is short of this forum, they appear to be getting away with it too....

FBP.

Godge

If boards.ie is representative of the Irish electorate, over 40% voted for FF the last time out - you would never believe it from the way the government is slated here.

The fact is - we got the government we voted for.

We elected a Taoiseach for the third time who believed that if there was nothing illegal about taking a gift in Manchester while also getting a loan in Drumconda, he had done nothing wrong or immoral. Any wonder Sean Fitzpatrick could see nothing wrong moving loans from bank to bank.

We have a culture of nods and winks, a culture that considers a tax-dodger a cute hoor and a man to be envied (except if he gets caught), a culture that rewards chancers and bluffers, that rejoices in us against them (don't let them know up in Dublin).

You are naive if you are surprised it all ended badly.

Darragh29

fatboypee wrote: »

I was thinking, is there ANY excuse for ANY government to issue such a budget in response to the *ahem* 'global' downturn as is predicted ?

There is an excuse, they are absolutely useless. I've stopped using the word incompetent lately because it occurred to me recently that I know several people who I could describe as incompetent, but through sheer hard work, they manage to pull it off.

What we are dealing with here is uselessness and laziness on a scale that most of us who work, would not be able to identify with. Sheer inability, they are up there with a corpse in terms of their inability to do anything useful.