TK Maxx "flouting planning laws"

Sully

According to WLR FM, An Bord Pleanála has ruled that TK Maxx are "flouting planning laws" and as such the County Council has put an enforcment notice requiring them to step selling everything except clothes. This puts at risk the workforce in TKMaxx as a result of the order.

This will make the whole "pro city center" people very happy to see that the retail park has suffered a major blow. Somebody suggested by text that each retailer who opens outside in the retail park should also open a shop in the city center. Madness imo.

EDIT: I believe that, according to posters, the above is not entirely correct. TKMaxx are not permitted to sell clothes but can sell eveything else (such as household goods and toys).

c - 13

Even if they do suffer enough of a blow and pull out of the retail park whats that going to accomplish though ? Its still not going to entice people back into the city centre magically.

sunnysoutheast

Good.

So, Sully, your argument would be that companies can ignore planning laws, as long as they provide some jobs?

Developments such as this have killed off City centres all over the world. It makes a mockery of having a retail strategy if companies believe they can just ignore it.

SSE

ziedth

I'm truly in the pro-city centre camp but I wouldn't be happy to hear this by any means. Its hard enough to get work in the region at the moment for the poor people working out there.

Will they have to close down because of this and re-apply?

Aquos76

Sully wrote: »

According to WLR FM, An Bord Pleanála has ruled that TK Maxx are "flouting planning laws" and as such the County Council has put an enforcment notice requiring them to step selling everything except clothes. This puts at risk the workforce in TKMaxx as a result of the order.

This will make the whole "pro city center" people very happy to see that the retail park has suffered a major blow. Somebody suggested by text that each retailer who opens outside in the retail park should also open a shop in the city center. Madness imo.

I think you have it the wrong way aroung Sully, The problem is the clothes, they are not allowed to sell them. The planning was for household goods but clothes do not fall into that catorgory.

The enforcement notice is for them to remove all clothing for sale from the store.

Cabaal

TK Max are known for selling discount clothes. what the hell did the council think they'd be selling? Did they think every other TK Max in Ireland and the UK sells clothes but somehow Waterford would be different?

It seems Waterford City is destined to shoot itself everytime there's any bit of progress, sad state of affairs.

sunnysoutheast

Really? They can't sell clothes in that unit??

SSE

kensutz

Cabaal wrote: »

TK Max are known for selling discount clothes. what the hell did the council think they'd be selling? Did they think every other TK Max in Ireland and the UK sells clothes but somehow Waterford would be different?

It seems Waterford City is destined to shoot itself everytime there's any bit of progress, sad state of affairs.

If you read it properly, Sully said that they can't sell anything except clothes. This means mirrors and home appliances. It's a long standing argument which is going on over a few months.

Aquos76

kensutz wrote: »

If you read it properly, Sully said that they can't sell anything except clothes. This means mirrors and home appliances. It's a long standing argument which is going on over a few months.

And if you read my post properly, you will see that Sully has it the wrong way around;)

I think you have it the wrong way aroung Sully, The problem is the clothes, they are not allowed to sell them. The planning was for household goods but clothes do not fall into that catorgory.

The enforcement notice is for them to remove all clothing for sale from the store.

Sully

Waterford wont magically get back to the old days if the retail park dies. Nobody wants to go to a city center where parking is expensive both on street and in City Square. I believe Kilkenny gives at least an hour free parking.

These type of developments, while not in the city center (due to no space and probably fees) are encouraging people to stay local and not go to the likes of Cork, Dublin or Kilkenny. Surrounding areas that do not have these stores are travelling down and are now shopping in Waterford. The city center can not offer these type of stores - so what, we refuse them? The suggestion that they should open two stores is also daft. Right now Waterford offers out of town shopping in addition to in town shopping (which isn't great). This means people will use both rather then going elsewhere that has all of the above.

I thought the planning for this area was daft personally. Waterford needs these stores badly to encourage more people. I'm sure if a bus was provided between the city center and the retail park on a regular basis it would increase activity in the center.

But for now - our city center is dying because of lack of space, enticement, expensive parking and I assume expensive fees. Not because of the retail park which should be designed to go hand in hand with each other.

People are loosing their jobs at a rapid rate in this country in addition to our own local issues and now the council want to enforce a planning law resulting in the store having to either reduce staff or pull out completely. This will have a big blow as people will stop coming here and for all those people who hate the retail park - people will stop going there also. But guess what? You wont see them back in the city center, they will go elsewhere for their shopping.

(Excuse the rant, its just something that has hit a raw nerve)

Sully

Aquos76 wrote: »

And if you read my post properly, you will see that Sully has it the wrong way around;)

Ah ****e. Perhaps so, ill take it that I have. I guess I misheard what the presenter said as I thought it was everything but clothes must go. Thinking about it, the other way around probably makes more sense :P

I think however, my point still stands and probably has more of a point now more then ever. People go out for the discounts, the baragain. Now moreso then ever. Thats the main attraction for TKMaxx and I cant see them trading on without being permitted to sell clothes as then its just another Harvey Normal with less goods.

Planning laws should not be broken, fair point. However, is the planning law itself really appropriate?

Kotek Besar

So which is it, they can sell everything except clothes, or they can sell only clothes?

EDIT: My post crossed with Sully's.

sunnysoutheast

Surely TK Maxx knew of the restrictions before they moved in so this was a calculated risk?

If planning allowed this sort of store in this location it would spell the final death knell for the city centre. They'd all move out.

Interestingly both of the TK Maxx's I've been to in the UK - Liverpool and Kingston - are very busy and in city centres, not out-of-town.

SSE

merlante

What exactly are they allowed to sell? Just clothes? If it's just clothes, then that's pretty much all they have in there.

TKMaxx is a great shop, as I think is the Next in Ardkeen. I find these days that if I'm shopping for clothes I take a walk in the city centre and then I get in the car, go to Ardkeen, then get back in the car, go to Butlerstown, and then back again. That's, what, a 10km round trip in the car, when all of this stuff should be in the city centre? Also a gigantic waste of my time.

The sooner that Newgate shopping centre gets built the better, then the likes of those shops can open in the city centre. It's a bit harsh to punish TKMaxx whilst there are currently no city centre units large enough to accomodate it, but the reality of the matter is that out of town shopping will not only kill the city centre but ultimately make are lives miserable due to the amount of driving we'll have to do, and time we'll have to invest, to compare prices on jackets or jeans or whatever. It's in the consumers best interest to offer the largest amount of choice in a single location.

I think that the council should nearly take a stake in the Newgate centre just to get it off the ground, if such a thing is legal.

Sully

Once again.. the city center died a long time ago, before the opening of these retail parks. I can not see how they "kill" it anyway as it doesnt offer the same stuff as is offered in the town center (TKMaxx being a minor exception).

You get restraunts, cafes, jewlrey shops, clothes shops, shoe shops.. big retailers like Debenhams and Dunness... all in the city center. Might not be much, but the center has more to offer (excluding free parking) then the Retail Park which serves much larger retailers offering a different type of service then can be offerd in the city center.

You get pockets of stores like in Ardkeen and soon to be Ferrybank making life easier for those living around it. No harm with that.

Driving time? Geez its not that bad. A quick spin out a decent road, easy to get parking, easy to get around etc. I think a bus service would be great going to and from as it would make life that bit easier for people and gives a lot more freedom. Problem is, council will loose money as people will park in the Retail Park for free and bus the rest of the way.

noby

Cabaal wrote: »

TK Max are known for selling discount clothes. what the hell did the council think they'd be selling?

To be fair that's not up to the council. They can only go on what's on the planning application.
Hopefully common sense will prevail here, whether that's a retention application, or whatever.

Cabaal

Sully wrote: »

Waterford wont magically get back to the old days if the retail park dies. Nobody wants to go to a city center where parking is expensive both on street and in City Square. I believe Kilkenny gives at least an hour free parking.

Kilkenny gives
2 hours free in Mark Cross if you buy 10e worth in Superquinn,
2 Hours free in McDonaugh Junction if you buy stuff in Dunnes...though think its free for first 2hours in general now

Both places are within 10-15min walking distance and offer a range of shops

I'm sure if a bus was provided between the city center and the retail park on a regular basis it would increase activity in the center.

I'd have to agree with this, at present is only for people with cars full stop

But for now - our city center is dying because of lack of space, enticement, expensive parking and I assume expensive fees. Not because of the retail park which should be designed to go hand in hand with each other.

Agreed, the center of waterford is sadly dying a slow slow death, lack of decent shops, decent [parking, cafes and there is also a percentage of people who are actually just lazy and want the ability to nearly park in a shop as they won't walk short distances

People are loosing their jobs at a rapid rate in this country in addition to our own local issues and now the council want to enforce a planning law resulting in the store having to either reduce staff or pull out completely.

Its nuts when you think about it alright, frankly if they do pull out I don't blame them one bit. A shop should not have to fight to do business in a area

Cabaal

kensutz wrote: »

If you read it properly, Sully said that they can't sell anything except clothes. This means mirrors and home appliances. It's a long standing argument which is going on over a few months.

As already covered, the argument is about clothes

The argument is confirmed by source
http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2008/10/31/story29568.asp

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Once again.. the city center died a long time ago, before the opening of these retail parks. I can not see how they "kill" it anyway as it doesnt offer the same stuff as is offered in the town center (TKMaxx being a minor exception).

You get restraunts, cafes, jewlrey shops, clothes shops, shoe shops.. big retailers like Debenhams and Dunness... all in the city center. Might not be much, but the center has more to offer (excluding free parking) then the Retail Park which serves much larger retailers offering a different type of service then can be offerd in the city center.

You get pockets of stores like in Ardkeen and soon to be Ferrybank making life easier for those living around it. No harm with that.

Driving time? Geez its not that bad. A quick spin out a decent road, easy to get parking, easy to get around etc. I think a bus service would be great going to and from as it would make life that bit easier for people and gives a lot more freedom. Problem is, council will loose money as people will park in the Retail Park for free and bus the rest of the way.

I try hard to remember these halcyon days when the city centre was supposedly 'alive'. It's not thriving, that's for sure, but is it any less busy that anywhere else? Kilkenny looks busy because it is so small and it has no pedestrian area. Kilkenny is a nightmare for shoppers imho, cars everywhere, people nearly falling onto the road off narrow footpaths. Waterford circa 15 years ago.

The parking argument is a red herring. There is always parking in the ALDI in the Glen, for example, but Waterford people have no legs apparently. There probably should be more parking, but lets face it, nobody is going to drive to Kilkenny over a few euros on the meter.

The internationally recognised rule of thumb on out of town shopping is to provide neighbourhood level shops in the suburbs but to keep comparison shopping outlets in the city centre. In our own national strategy, only Dublin was said to be large enough (only just) to support out of town shopping.

This is not a 'save the city centre argument' -- although it's that too -- this is a better choice for consumers, lower costs, lower commutes, denser development, good for the environment, good for the local economy, win win win view. Out of town shopping, sparse development, car dependency, etc., are the opposite. The danger of course is that all you actually see if your free parking space in the suburbs and the traffic in the centre. The leakage from the economy and from our own pockets as a result of the latter policy is invisible. A bit like global warming, which is another very serious thing that nobody gives a damn about.

JLemmon

I think we are forgetting that the likes of Tk Maxx and other big retailers like M&S, HMV etc.. couldn't get spaces in the city centre due to planning objections. So to open here they were forced outside.

Parking is expensive in town but you can walk.
The problem is choice, ever wonder why we have only one big book shop? One or two small music shops? No choice here at all, that what put me off town also it's gone very dirty in parts, i.e ballybricken. Ever see the tree growing out of jumbos takeaway? Really! Broken Xmas decorations, dirty buildings (besco).
It's just not a pleasure.

merlante

JLemmon wrote: »

I think we are forgetting that the likes of Tk Maxx and other big retailers like M&S, HMV etc.. couldn't get spaces in the city centre due to planning objections. So to open here they were forced outside.

Parking is expensive in town but you can walk.
The problem is choice, ever wonder why we have only one big book shop? One or two small music shops? No choice here at all, that what put me off town also it's gone very dirty in parts, i.e ballybricken. Ever see the tree growing out of jumbos takeaway? Really! Broken Xmas decorations, dirty buildings (besco).
It's just not a pleasure.

All good points. I think ultimately, we wouldn't have this thread if TKMaxx, the big Next, M&S, Waterstones, H&M and a few others were in the centre. People would go in and pay the charges and that would be the end of it.

As a matter of interest, what are the parking charges in Galway and Limerick? I understand of course that at the moment you get better value for your money in these places, but the Newgate centre has the potential to right a big wrong.

Cabaal

merlante wrote: »

I try hard to remember these halcyon days when the city centre was supposedly 'alive'. It's not thriving, that's for sure, but is it any less busy that anywhere else? Kilkenny looks busy because it is so small and it has no pedestrian area.

Kilkenny looks busy because it actually is busy, thats clear from looking at numbers in shops and cafes in and around all of Kilkenny, compare Kilkenny on a Saturday v Waterford on a sat its a lot busier in Kilkenny

In addition if you look at the main shopping area in Waterford v Kilkenny there's alot more empty premises if you compare red square area/arundal square to High street in Kilkenny.

Its sad to see it but its been going this way even during the boom years...high rents and poor planning I would imagine

robtri

Cabaal wrote: »

Kilkenny looks busy because it actually is busy, thats clear from looking at numbers in shops and cafes in and around all of Kilkenny, compare Kilkenny on a Saturday v Waterford on a sat its a lot busier in Kilkenny

In addition if you look at the main shopping area in Waterford v Kilkenny there's alot more empty premises if you compare red square area/arundal square to High street in Kilkenny.

Its sad to see it but its been going this way even during the boom years...high rents and poor planning I would imagine

it is sad to see and a lot of it comes down to exactly what you said, high rents and very poor planning,

but is saying that, if TX maxx are in breach of the planning laws, then the appropriate action needs to be made, even if it means closing the store....
just cause you don't like the law doesn't mean you can ignore it.... even if jobs are at stake.....

merlante

Cabaal wrote: »

Kilkenny looks busy because it actually is busy, thats clear from looking at numbers in shops and cafes in and around all of Kilkenny, compare Kilkenny on a Saturday v Waterford on a sat its a lot busier in Kilkenny

In addition if you look at the main shopping area in Waterford v Kilkenny there's alot more empty premises if you compare red square area/arundal square to High street in Kilkenny.

Its sad to see it but its been going this way even during the boom years...high rents and poor planning I would imagine

I really doubt, if we had actual figures to hand, that Kilkenny would be shown to have more shoppers on a Saturday than Waterford. Waterford city centre is much more spread out than Kilkenny, and shoppers aren't confined to narrow footpaths. McDonagh centre doesn't get particularly busy.

Also, a lot of the vacant premises in Waterford are in line for redevelopment, i.e. Egans, parts of Michael st., etc.

I'm not saying that Waterford is thriving, but it's holding its own. If you look at the shops in the centre today versus 5 years ago, there is a marked improvement in quality, at least imho. The rents, rates and planning issues do seem to be major problems though.

meldrew

One of the objectors to the T K Maxx is a well known local property developer and now shopping centre owner who is no stranger to having to apply for retention of planning permission , I seem to recall he was told to knock houses and a wall which are still standing the last time I looked .

durrus

Does it really matter who objected? The fact is that the shop was opened without the correct planning - there is not, to my knowledge, another TKMaxx in the country located in a retail park like the one in Waterford (Dublin excepted - as previously pointed out, it has the population to be able to sustain this exception.) I doubt the store will close but if it does then the grievance of the staff should be with their own management who 'took a flyer' on planning and thought it might not be noticed. We have laws for a reason and they cannot be flouted or overlooked on the basis of jobs - that would just open the floodgates to all kind of 'shyster' operations setting up without correct permissions on the basis that 'We're creating jobs'. TKMaxx is a highly professional global business that should have known better.

Bards

durrus wrote: »

Does it really matter who objected? The fact is that the shop was opened without the correct planning - there is not, to my knowledge, another TKMaxx in the country located in a retail park like the one in Waterford (Dublin excepted - as previously pointed out, it has the population to be able to sustain this exception.) I doubt the store will close but if it does then the grievance of the staff should be with their own management who 'took a flyer' on planning and thought it might not be noticed. We have laws for a reason and they cannot be flouted or overlooked on the basis of jobs - that would just open the floodgates to all kind of 'shyster' operations setting up without correct permissions on the basis that 'We're creating jobs'. TKMaxx is a highly professional global business that should have known better.

They're in a retail park on the outskirts of Tralee

Sully

TKMaxx always claimed that they did not breach planning permissions. Will be interesting to hear their reaction.

Cabaal

Bards wrote: »

They're in a retail park on the outskirts of Tralee

I believe they are also in a retail park just outside Limerick also

Freddie59

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Good.

So, Sully, your argument would be that companies can ignore planning laws, as long as they provide some jobs?

Developments such as this have killed off City centres all over the world. It makes a mockery of having a retail strategy if companies believe they can just ignore it.

SSE

This is almost surreal. You can sell what you like in the City Centre with impunity. Yet try to open a shop on the outskirts and a MAJOR retailer is punished.

What message is this sending out to other retailers considering locating here. We are in the middle of a recession, heading for a depression. AND WE'RE DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT A SHOP CAN SELL CLOTHES.

Moronic, imbecilic, and a host of like words come to mind. We had a Council Of Trade Unions, ably assisted by a member of the Green Party, stifling City Centre development.

Now we're telling people they can't locate on the outskirts either. Way to go lads - way to go. A bunch of clowns.

Freddie59

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Surely TK Maxx knew of the restrictions before they moved in so this was a calculated risk?

If planning allowed this sort of store in this location it would spell the final death knell for the city centre. They'd all move out.

Interestingly both of the TK Maxx's I've been to in the UK - Liverpool and Kingston - are very busy and in city centres, not out-of-town.

SSE

Any TK Maxx in Ireland is usually located in out of town developments in Ireland. Imagine if this attitude (or similar) had been rolled out across the country. No Liffey Valley.....no Blanch....no Dundrum.

http://www.tkmaxx.com/storefinder.php