TK Maxx "flouting planning laws"

Freddie59

durrus wrote: »

Does it really matter who objected?

Yes it does. If that objector, hypothetically, turned out to have a vested interest in undermining TK Maxx.

Remember, when Waterford Shopping Centre opened in 1974 it was practically an out of town centre. Short memories indeed.;)

sunnysoutheast

Freddie59 wrote: »

This is almost surreal. You can sell what you like in the City Centre with impunity. Yet try to open a shop on the outskirts and a MAJOR retailer is punished.

What message is this sending out to other retailers considering locating here. We are in the middle of a recession, heading for a depression. AND WE'RE DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT A SHOP CAN SELL CLOTHES.

Moronic, imbecilic, and a host of like words come to mind. We had a Council Of Trade Unions, ably assisted by a member of the Green Party, stifling City Centre development.

Now we're telling people they can't locate on the outskirts either. Way to go lads - way to go. A bunch of clowns.

In Ireland only Dublin, really, has the population to support major out-of-town shopping. The Council is attempting to protect what's left of the city centre by means of its retail strategy. The business case for the Newgate centre will be implicitly connected to this retail strategy - why build it if there will be no tenants as they have all moved out to the suburbs?

I can't believe all this panic over what is simply a discount retailer - they will be interested only in TK Maxx. Remember that many US towns and cities welcomed the arrival of Wal-Mart and their jobs - only to realise later that this was at the cost of their city centres.

SSE

dannydiamond

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

I can't believe all this panic over what is simply a discount retailer - they will be interested only in TK Maxx. Remember that many US towns and cities welcomed the arrival of Wal-Mart and their jobs - only to realise later that this was at the cost of their city centres.

This is about as absurd and irrelevant as comparisons get.

Cabaal

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

I can't believe all this panic over what is simply a discount retailer - they will be interested only in TK Maxx. Remember that many US towns and cities welcomed the arrival of Wal-Mart and their jobs - only to realise later that this was at the cost of their city centres.

SSE

Wal-Mart is one store that became a once stop shop for EVERYTHING, not exactly the same thing

sunnysoutheast

dannydiamond wrote: »

This is about as absurd and irrelevant as comparisons get.

No it isn't. The detrimental impact of out-of-town retail growth on city centres is well known - you can Google it as well as I can. This is exactly the same issue, just on a smaller scale.

I don't have any axe to grind with TK Maxx and I am not a flagbearer for anyone else, I simply want to see a compact city centre busy and thriving. Inappropriate out-of-town car-dependent development is not the way to go about it. Many cities around the world have proved this, but we seem determined not to learn from the mistakes others have made.

Anyway, not much point debating this further until the facts are established one way or the other.

SSE

sunnysoutheast

Cabaal wrote: »

Wal-Mart is one store that became a once stop shop for EVERYTHING, not exactly the same thing

That's true, bad example maybe, but when the stores became an alternative shopping destination to the city centre was when the centre started to die. There was only so much shopping spend to go round.

SSE

AdMMM

Pretty sure I typed this in a thread before but the argument is over the sale of household goods, not clothes. They're allowed sell clothes. Also please lets not jump on the City Council bashing bandwagon as this is a matter that's up to the County Council.

wmpdd3

No I'm afraid your wrong they are not allowed to sell clothing as it would be comparable shopping.

Sully

Had a glimpse at the local papers today. The county council did a vote of no confedence against the board after they refused two developments: Argos and Mother Care. The board claimed the land wasnt zoned correctly (a similar reason they have given in the past about developments in Tramore). They also said they had to act against TKMaxx and will work for a resolution but said it was unlikely.

The objector is your man Noel Frisby who has interests in that shopping center on Paddy Browns. He brought other applications in Butlerstown to the attention of the board also according to the Munster Express.

As for what is/isnt allowed be sold.. Afraid your also mixed up Adam as we all seem to be!

The board, in a ruling issued last week, found that TK Maxx at the Butlerstown Retail Park did not have permission to sell items such as clothes, toys and shoes because they do not meet a "bulky goods" classification.

Council takes action against TK Maxx store over planning contravention
By Ciaran Murphy

WATERFORD County Council has commenced enforcement proceedings against a TK Maxx outlet in Waterford after An Bord Pleanála found it had contravened planning laws.

The board, in a ruling issued last week, found that TK Maxx at the Butlerstown Retail Park did not have permission to sell items such as clothes, toys and shoes because they do not meet a "bulky goods" classification.

Sixty jobs at the store are now under threat, it is feared.

An Bord Pleanála investigated the sale of items at TK Maxx, following a complaint by local developer Noel Frisby, a director of Noel Frisby Construction Ltd who has interests in the Lisduggan Shopping Centre.

The board ruled that TK Maxx, along with a Mothercare outlet that was due to open at the park, contravened planning laws, as outlets at the park can only sell items that are deemed to be "bulky".

A spokeswoman for TK Maxx yesterday said: "We are extremely disappointed by this ruling. It is a very complex situation and we are currently working to find a resolution that will be in the very best interests of our store associates and our customers in Waterford."

Director of services at Waterford County Council, Brian White, said that the council had deemed Mothercare to be within the bulky goods classification.

"We are certainly working out the options with them and are trying to reach some conclusion that will save [those] jobs."

Mr White said the options that are there for TK Maxx were to "defend the case against them in court, to apply for planning permission for retention, or to look for some alternative solution".

However, Waterford’s county councillors expressed anger at the monthly meeting of the local authority on Monday evening and passed a motion of no confidence in An Bord Pleanála.

Waterford county councillor Pat Daly said: "One job is a lot to lose at the moment, but if we can protect, in any way, sixty jobs, it is the duty of all of us here to do it."

The Mayor of Co Waterford Tom Higgins criticised Mr Frisby at the meeting. He asked Mr White: "It is a bit rich, a Kilkenny man coming in, telling us what to do, isn’t it?"

Mr White replied: "Mayor, with respect, any member of the public has a right to insist that the planning regulations are enforced."

Proposals to rezone the land were considered unlikely to succeed.

Cllr John Carey added: "I have the utmost respect for Waterford planning and I think it is high time now that we called for disbanding of An Bord Pleanála because they’re certainly not doing us any favours."

In response Cllr Damian Geoghan said: "If we go along with the proposals [for a vote of no confidence] today, what we are saying is that there should be no appeals process in this country in relation to planning."

A spokesman with An Bord Pleanála yesterday confirmed that it "ruled that TK Maxx does not have the correct planning permission for what it is proposing".

Source: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/idgbmhsngb/rss2/

I agree with the Board. Clothes are hardly "bulky goods". Mothercare is borderline, but they sell clothes aswel as some slightly bulky goods. I think the Board should be doing a vote of no confidence against the council seeing as the problem would seem to lie with them. Seen the same problem in Tramore and similar comments.

j walsh

I know this isn't retail but its still planning laws, but if proper regulations on planning were followed, then there's a lot of work left to be done around the city on estates and private houses with builders long gone that are still not finished yet, now the law is the law and it should always be followed , but not one rule for one and one for another,
Surely they knew what they were going to sell when they applied for plannning orginally and object then rather then now when people could lose there jobs.

robtri

Sully wrote: »

Source: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/idgbmhsngb/rss2/

I agree with the Board. Clothes are hardly "bulky goods". Mothercare is borderline, but they sell clothes aswel as some slightly bulky goods. I think the Board should be doing a vote of no confidence against the council seeing as the problem would seem to lie with them. Seen the same problem in Tramore and similar comments.

how does this become the councils fault, this is soley TK Maxx's fault, you can't blame the council cause TK Maxx didn't read the conditions of opening up in that retail park.....

Sully

robtri wrote: »

how does this become the councils fault, this is soley TK Maxx's fault, you can't blame the council cause TK Maxx didn't read the conditions of opening up in that retail park.....

With regards to other planning applications mainly.

JLemmon

Freddie59 wrote: »

Any TK Maxx in Ireland is usually located in out of town developments in Ireland. Imagine if this attitude (or similar) had been rolled out across the country. No Liffey Valley.....no Blanch....no Dundrum.

http://www.tkmaxx.com/storefinder.php

Yeah I was going to say this, is it only waterford that these planning issues exist?
Take the Mahon point complex in cork, they have everything for sale there, so what's the deal?
How does this affect Next and Tesco, and even Paddy Brownes centre?
Non-bulky planning permission?
They are hardly city centre locations.
All the while the Waterford Retail Park in 6 cross roads sits empty, is this a bulky item only location? If not sure can't TK Maxx, Argos and mothercare jump in there?
Outside of more DIY places there is not many bulky shops, what's bulky about Halfords & Home Focus?

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

Had a glimpse at the local papers today. The county council did a vote of no confedence against the board after they refused two developments: Argos and Mother Care. The board claimed the land wasnt zoned correctly (a similar reason they have given in the past about developments in Tramore). They also said they had to act against TKMaxx and will work for a resolution but said it was unlikely.

The Board doesn't "claim" that the land was zoned incorrectly, the Board points out that the land was zoned incorrectly.

We get this every month from the Councillors whenever Bord Pleanala highlights cock ups that the Councillors made.

We also saw it in Dungarvan last year when they rezoned a piece of land out past the Waterford Crystal Factory. Instead of rezoning a contiguous block of land they leap frogged one farm and rezoned the next farm out the road. If they had rezoned both Farms they would have been uin compliance with the Law, but because they (yet again) did it half-assed, the Department of the Environment overruled them.

We saw it in Tramore with the Aldi decision - the incorrect rezoning was mentioned in the decision.

The Councillors only have three real executive powers, and rezoning is one of them (setting speed limits is another - don't get me started! :roll: ).

They can't honestly blame An Bord Pleanala when it is they themselves who keep making these silly mistakes.

Sully

If they keep making the mistakes, why isnt someone stepping in and putting a stop to this constant stream of problems? Surely the council cant be let make mess up after mess up and expect the voters to push them out during election periods only.

merlante

JLemmon wrote: »

Yeah I was going to say this, is it only waterford that these planning issues exist?
Take the Mahon point complex in cork, they have everything for sale there, so what's the deal?
How does this affect Next and Tesco, and even Paddy Brownes centre?
Non-bulky planning permission?
They are hardly city centre locations.
All the while the Waterford Retail Park in 6 cross roads sits empty, is this a bulky item only location? If not sure can't TK Maxx, Argos and mothercare jump in there?
Outside of more DIY places there is not many bulky shops, what's bulky about Halfords & Home Focus?

Mahon Point and other centres could be the death of Cork city centre yet. These developments encourage urban sprawl. Limerick is in a very precarious situation with almost all new developments being on the outskirts. Limerick city council is impoverished and Limerick city centre is at risk. Those who know Limerick better might be able to say more.

There's no problem with the bulky goods/warehouse stores being outside of town, because they need space and access for vehicles, more than other shops. There's also no problem with supermarkets and neighbourhood facilities, etc. being in the suburbs. But that's all that should be outside of the centre.

TKMaxx would be fantastic, say, where Dunnes are now outside of city square. They would do much better business, and so would all the other shops around. That's how things go when you have a critical mass of comparison retail in a compact area. Consumers get real choice and a much better shopping experience. Obviously, though, there's no space in the city centre at the moment and we are waiting on the Newgate centre.

In my opinion, when the Newgate centre is built, Waterford city centre will be one of the best shopping locations in the country. It'll be as vibrant as any of the other cities but will feature most or all of its retail in one place. This places it at an advantage to most other city locations, where circuitous road trips are increasingly required to hit certain shops on the outskirts. The city council's strategy is a smart one -- surprisingly enlightened actually, coming from a council that are allegedly thinking of postponing the paddy's day parade for the De La Salle game!

Sully

I wouldnt get carried away in thinking Newgate will be the best in the country. I could be wrong, but is it the largest retail space in Ireland for such stores? It also does depend on who moves in there.

mike65

meldrew wrote: »

One of the objectors to the T K Maxx is a well known local property developer and now shopping centre owner who is no stranger to having to apply for retention of planning permission , I seem to recall he was told to knock houses and a wall which are still standing the last time I looked .

That would be Noel Frisby.

http://buckplanning.blogspot.com/2009/03/council-takes-action-against-tk-maxx.html

merlante

Sully wrote: »

I wouldnt get carried away in thinking Newgate will be the best in the country. I could be wrong, but is it the largest retail space in Ireland for such stores? It also does depend on who moves in there.

It won't be the largest centre in the country, that's not really what I'm getting at. It's the fact that you'll have one of the best concentrations on retail in the country. You'll have Newgate centre, City sq., JR sq., and the main streets providing as much choice as you'll find anywhere. Smaller centres can't sustain this level of retail (as Athlone will probably discover) or don't have the town centre space. Larger centres are either opting for out of town shopping or are very busy, like Dublin's Henry st. area.

You could have all your shopping done in an hour and a half (if you were coming from outside of Waterford and doing a lot of shopping), having had as much choice as in any other location, whereas other locations will typically have less choice, be busier and more spread out, or will have retail spread across a few centres, meaning that shoppers don't see everything, get tired more quickly, and spend a lot more time than they want to finding what they want.

But even on its own, the Newgate centre will be big. M&S will definitely come in for starters, hopefully a TKMaxx, a Dixons, a Waterstones, etc., etc. It will be the most attractive location for retailers left in Ireland, because every other promising location was developed, and in many cases over-developed, during the boom. Waterford, however, is the fifth largest centre in the country and is relatively underdeveloped.

Trotter

What are the chances of TK Maxx actually closing their doors in their existing premises?

I enjoy going in there for a little wander, and I'm sick of people telling me I should shop in Waterford city centre in the midst of the smell and rubbish and general 1988 feel to the place. I dislike being in Waterford city centre, so I hope to God the crowd who know better than me about where I should spend my money don't win out and force me to go to town everytime I need a pair of trousers. Going to Waterford city to shop, for me, is a nasty experience.

I hope they leave TK Maxx alone, build more out of town shopping, and clean Waterford city centre up so maybe people might actually want to go there to spend money.

sunnysoutheast

Trotter wrote: »

I hope they leave TK Maxx alone, build more out of town shopping, and clean Waterford city centre up so maybe people might actually want to go there to spend money.

That's the whole point. If there is unchecked growth in out-of-town (usually in a County Council local authority adjacent to a City boundary) shopping then there won't be any tax revenue to clean up the City centre, no reason for any third party to invest in it, and it will die a long slow death.

If you want to look over the Irish Sea for an example (albeit on a much bigger scale) contrast Bristol (with the huge out-of-town Cribbs Causeway built on part of Filton airfield) and Liverpool (with the central Liverpool One built on the old bus station). Bristol city centre is quiet, tatty and full of tramps and pound shops (last time I was there), Cribbs is booming. Liverpool now has a pedestrianised shopping thoroughfare from Lime St station all the way down to the Albert Dock, well over a mile, and the L1 development has been a major catalyst for growth and redevelopment in the centre, still ongoing, due to the concentration of retail footfall.

Another major consideration is that many of these out-of-town developments are completely inaccessible by public transport, not everybody has access to a car.

SSE

Trotter

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

there won't be any tax revenue to clean up the City centre

I disagree here because I can think of hundreds of things that could have been done with the money squandered on that black thing in city square and the metal bus stop like "information centre" that was built.

One person's free choice to spend money in town does not outweigh another's free choice to spend it outside of town. It is up to the city council to create the atmosphere to attract people. If those don't exist, nobody has the right to interfere with my free choice to spend my money somewhere else.

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Another major consideration is that many of these out-of-town developments are completely inaccessible by public transport, not everybody has access to a car.
SSE

I and many others do have a car. Therefore there's a market for shopping for people with cars. Nobody has the right to tell me I cant go shopping in my car. If I want to give my money to a business person who has seen the niche reflecting that I want to drive to an integrated out of town shopping complex, then it really is nobody else's concern.

Instead of putting energies into forcing me to shop in the centre,(not you SSE, in general I mean) the people with a vested interest in the centre should attract me in, not force me.

It boils down to free will and choice. I hate shopping. I like shopping in a place where I can see/buy what I need in a very short time. I earn the money I spend, so I'm free to spend it where I want.. be that Newry, Dundrum, Biddy's corner shop, Waterford City Centre, or an out of town centre.

There's got to be competition, and as far as I can see, the city centre businesses are losing the competition to attract customers because many of them aren't even bothered to sweep the path outside their shops.

If TK Maxx closes, I still won't shop in the city until something is done to make it less intimidating, dirty, unappealling, etc. etc. I'll keep my money and go somewhere else. Thats my right.

Quigs Snr

I don't like TK Maxx, its a glorified jumble sale. However it is massively popular. Yes it brings people out of town. Too bad. City center retailers need to compete or die, make me come into town for some other reason than to subsidise uncompetitive local shops. And oh yeah, give me a way to get in there other than drive. How can we have a bus service that feeble after so many years of boom ?

I find the retail park pretty handy, at least people are driving out the road and keeping jobs in Waterford not driving to another city. Furthermore, people visit Waterford just to go to TK Maxx. That cancels out any legal considerations in my view.

Would it be better to have it in town ? Why yes of course it would. So if they don't want TK Maxx out there then someone better pull their finger out and find/build a suitable location in town. A big store like that attracts people, that footfall attracts other stores which in turn brings even more people. Its so simple a child could grasp it.

Why is it that the morons in charge of this city stand out amongst extremely stiff competition in a country run almost entirely by morons ? I read this kind of stuff and I despair, we are talking about a planning dispute with a major retailer, one of the few places to bring new jobs to Waterford in the past year, we are not trying to send a manned mission to mars. Can some idiot not sort this out, we pay enough money for people to take care of these things. This town does nothing but shoot itself in the foot. I have been long embarrassed to be Irish, but to be from Waterford these days is a humiliation almost too much to bear. I would be less embarassed to tell people I was from Kilkenny. Yeah you heard me KILKENNY!

Bards

The many objections by selfish NIMBY's and serial objectors has led to this situation where there has been no new retail developed in Waterford City Centre during the Boom Celtic Tiger era.

longshanks

with regard to tk maxx, would everything have been ok if noel frisby hadn't lodged an objection? maybe the relevant authorities would have turned a blind eye to tk maxx's breach of the rules.
also its a bit rich that noel frisby objects thus threatening jobs, purely on a self serving basis. a developer worried about planning laws? that'd be a first.
another thing, if he withdrew his objection would the process still have to be seen through to the end. ie if all the staff penned a letter 'hi noel frisby, thanks to your bullshit objection my job is being threatened. any chance you would change your mind? regards etc...' probably not

KingLoser

Nah, Pandora's box can only be opened.

It is a wonder why the complaint was lodged really, seems kinda petty.

Freddie59

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

No it isn't. The detrimental impact of out-of-town retail growth on city centres is well known - you can Google it as well as I can. This is exactly the same issue, just on a smaller scale.

I don't have any axe to grind with TK Maxx and I am not a flagbearer for anyone else, I simply want to see a compact city centre busy and thriving. Inappropriate out-of-town car-dependent development is not the way to go about it. Many cities around the world have proved this, but we seem determined not to learn from the mistakes others have made.

Anyway, not much point debating this further until the facts are established one way or the other.

SSE

Are you a member of the Green Party by any chance?

Freddie59

robtri wrote: »

how does this become the councils fault, this is soley TK Maxx's fault, you can't blame the council cause TK Maxx didn't read the conditions of opening up in that retail park.....

Only in Waterford.......:rolleyes:

Freddie59

KingLoser wrote: »

Nah, Pandora's box can only be opened.

It is a wonder why the complaint was lodged really, seems kinda petty.

More like anti-competitive.

Sully

Keep the politics to the other thread folks and keep to the topic.

As for why we are in the current miss - I don't think any specific party is to blame nor do I think any specific party if voted in would transform the place.

As for judgement day - I think a new county council is in order for Waterford. Between the constant planning problems and the Tramore road it just bugs me that this crowd are running the county.