TK Maxx "flouting planning laws"

merlante

Cabaal wrote: »

Given this ruling I honestly wouldn't see anything wrong if TKMaxx closed up shop in Waterford.

TK Maxx may not want the expense of
1 Moving stock etc into town
2 Finding premises big enough to hold stock
3 Having enough storeroom space for stock
4 Renovating new premises, signage etc

Rent is going to be higher in town compared to out at the ringroad especially for what they'll want and they'll also loose all the handy and free parking they've had till now.

TK Maxx should have thought of that when they lied about what they were going to sell.

Anyway, to be honest, I don't think those costs will drive TK Maxx out of Waterford. By all accounts they are doing very well in Waterford, and they might end up doing even better in the city centre. They are a large chain and can afford to take a hit on these one-off costs in lieu of good profits later.

I think the other retailers out there are strong enough in their own right to be a significant draw to the retail park. These warehouse stores seem to be popping up everywhere on the outskirts of Waterford.

The unit used by Penny's in Railway sq. is an obvious temporary (at least) location, until they could get planning permission to renovate more prominent premises or until the Newgate centre gets built (fingers crossed there). Penny's apparently did very well in that unit.

Alanson

First of all I would just like to say that Tk Maxx are not one bit in the wrong and that the county council made an error about the planning regulations for Tk Maxx to move into Butlerstown Retail Park as they basically turned a blind eye to the type of items the store would be selling which personally i think is backwards from Ireland as a country to have these regulations.

On another note, Tk Maxx is an extremely profitable company and clearly supports the other companies out in the retail park and also employs over 60 people living in the Waterford area and regardless of any planning regulations and breaches of the terms this is the most important thing to note.

Tk Maxx were brought to court by some very jealous individuals which personally i think is pathetic. Of course the company would like to move into the city center like some of their other stores across the country but due to the lack of facilitation in Waterford city center area for large stores such as Tk from the laid back attitude of the so called "city council members" this cannot be achieved. It is clearly evident and also proves my point that this is true as some people refer to the company temporarily moving into the Railway Square until they find a store best suited for them which could take a very long time if waiting on the members in the city council.

My last point is that I dont understand how Next received planning permission for their store beside Tesco when they appealed to An Board Penala and Tk Maxx was refused in an extermely recession era.

If the city had another shopping center or large retail units in the city this whole messy situation would not be occuring and will more then likely continue to reoccur due to some other jealous retailers in the city, a builder(do i even need to say the names....!!) and from some idiotic members of the city council.

decies

Alanson wrote: »

First of all I would just like to say that Tk Maxx are not one bit in the wrong and that the county council made an error about the planning regulations for Tk Maxx to move into Butlerstown Retail Park as they basically turned a blind eye to the type of items the store would be selling which personally i think is backwards from Ireland as a country to have these regulations.

On another note, Tk Maxx is an extremely profitable company and clearly supports the other companies out in the retail park and also employs over 60 people living in the Waterford area and regardless of any planning regulations and breaches of the terms this is the most important thing to note.

Tk Maxx were brought to court by some very jealous individuals which personally i think is pathetic. Of course the company would like to move into the city center like some of their other stores across the country but due to the lack of facilitation in Waterford city center area for large stores such as Tk from the laid back attitude of the so called "city council members" this cannot be achieved. It is clearly evident and also proves my point that this is true as some people refer to the company temporarily moving into the Railway Square until they find a store best suited for them which could take a very long time if waiting on the members in the city council.

My last point is that I dont understand how Next received planning permission for their store beside Tesco when they appealed to An Board Penala and Tk Maxx was refused in an extermely recession era.

If the city had another shopping center or large retail units in the city this whole messy situation would not be occuring and will more then likely continue to reoccur due to some other jealous retailers in the city, a builder(do i even need to say the names....!!) and from some idiotic members of the city council.

I think its only a convenient excuse to be saying no suitable place in the city centre,that telecom land (i think it is) just by entrance to city square would fit a tk-max easily, or probably more important a marx and spencers.Stop your whinging and find a new retail space,"if you build they will come".

Cabaal

decies wrote: »

I think its only a convenient excuse to be saying no suitable place in the city centre,that telecom land (i think it is) just by entrance to city square would fit a tk-max easily, or probably more important a marx and spencers.Stop your whinging and find a new retail space,"if you build they will come".

The empty bit of land across the lane from the eircom central exchange?

There's nothing there, for TK Maxx to build would cost them a fortune as they'd have to build from scratch...first off they'd need planning.

Then there's objections due to the size of the store, signs etc, don't forget lack of parking and tiny laneways (streets) which would cause traffic mayham.

The middle of the town is unsuitable traffic wise to take another large retail unit when there's no where for people to park as it is.

I'm curious if Waterford CoCo would retract all objections if TK Maxx opened up in Ferrybank, they wouldn't be too happy then.

In relation to M&S, what is it with people's obsession with them....sure they have nice stuff but its not ground breaking stuff and its not cheap either....hardly ideal when people don't have lots of money.

Cabaal

merlante wrote: »

TK Maxx should have thought of that when they lied about what they were going to sell.

Tell me, what idiot in the county council gave the green light to TK Maxx thinking they'd be selling something different in the Waterford store compared to every other store they own worldwide? Seriously.

Any links to the wording of TK Maxx's planning app just so we can see did they lie?

wmpdd3

http://www.waterfordcity.ie/ePlan41/SearchExact.aspx?FocusFieldName=Address

Can't find it at all, is it Waterford city council or is it County council?

If it's the county council that may explain Next as they got PP from the city council.

http://www.waterfordcity.ie/ePlan41/SearchResults.aspx


I have no idea how they got PP as Tesco Ardkeen can't increase the clothing space.

'comparison goods sales '

http://www.waterfordcity.ie/ePlan41/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=0322&LASiteID=0

decies

Cabaal wrote: »

The empty bit of land across the lane from the eircom central exchange?

There's nothing there, for TK Maxx to build would cost them a fortune as they'd have to build from scratch...first off they'd need planning.

Then there's objections due to the size of the store, signs etc, don't forget lack of parking and tiny laneways (streets) which would cause traffic mayham.

The middle of the town is unsuitable traffic wise to take another large retail unit when there's no where for people to park as it is.

I'm curious if Waterford CoCo would retract all objections if TK Maxx opened up in Ferrybank, they wouldn't be too happy then.

In relation to M&S, what is it with people's obsession with them....sure they have nice stuff but its not ground breaking stuff and its not cheap either....hardly ideal when people don't have lots of money.

Some fair points,mind you plenty of carpark space except christmas on the quays.Was in millers marsh today,only half full and its good value.Mind you i think tkmax is 90% rubbish its the other 10% that makes it interesting.The ladies seem to love the M+S,mind you the one in clonmel is a bit of a joke

Cabaal

decies wrote: »

Some fair points,mind you plenty of carpark space except christmas on the quays.Was in millers marsh today,only half full and its good value.Mind you i think tkmax is 90% rubbish its the other 10% that makes it interesting.The ladies seem to love the M+S,mind you the one in clonmel is a bit of a joke

Here's were the problems begin
- You park on the quays and its expensive and full alot of the time
- You park in places like the marsh and its cheaper but far away

Sadly people are lazy we've seen this time and time again, if people could park in the shop they would :rolleyes:

Walking from Millers Marsh to say the eircom central exchange location is something that average joe won't bother doing.

Compared to what TK Maxx currently have (plenty of free parking) moving into town isn't really that attractive rent wise, parking wise and space wise imho.

I'm curious, how is TK Maxx not allowed operate outside the city centre but Next is yet Next sell clothing goods as well.

gscully

Cabaal wrote: »

I'm curious, how is TK Maxx not allowed operate outside the city centre but Next is yet Next sell clothing goods as well.

I'm being cynical, but at the time Next opened in Ardkeen, they had two shops already open in City Square and maybe they were able to use that as leverage.

My best guess is that it's to do with the city boundary. Doesn't it cut right through the Butlerstown Retail Park?

fricatus

gscully wrote: »

My best guess is that it's to do with the city boundary. Doesn't it cut right through the Butlerstown Retail Park?

No, the retail park is entirely within the county council area. The boundary is a few hundred metres back in the Cork Road (very near where NTL used to have their call centre).

merlante

It doesn't take a genius to see that if M&S, TK Maxx, Next, etc. make a beeline for various locations around the inner and outer ring roads, that the city centre will die a death, everyone will have to buy a car in order to shop, and we'll all have to spend a few euro of petrol doing some basic comparison shopping. And nobody will travel to Waterford to shop because there's no one place they can park and do all their shopping.

The city council's policy is 100% right, and is 100% consistent with urban planning best practice. Waterford is making an important stand where other Irish cities, such as Limerick are failing badly. Bad urban planning costs money and jobs. The 60 jobs in Tk Maxx are nothing compared to what can be gained or lost by good and bad urban planning decisions, which have a huge affect on the trade that a city does. You might not be able to see where the jobs are won and lost, but that doesn't make it any less real.

If Tk Maxx was in the city centre, those 60 people would have a much higher quality of life, with the range of eateries nearby for lunch, and with the possibility of doing daily shopping/other errands before they go home. Those 60 jobs would support a lot of other jobs by doing so. Similarly, those working and shopping in town, could easily pop into Tk Maxx and support those 60 jobs. The 60 jobs might become 80 jobs. In a more central location, far less of those 60 people would have to drive to work, saving fuel and giving them back some leisure time. Out of town shopping, except where furniture, garden centres and large items, etc. are concerned, are bad for everyone and good for nobody. (Comments about parking in town don't hold water, and are another issue anyway since parking can always be improved.)

Tk Maxx are completely at fault, and Bord Planala agrees. They got planning permission to sell one type of thing (ala the other warehouse shops out there) and they tried to get away with selling something different. They got caught. If nothing else, they can be happy they're not getting a steep fine, and that they got to sample the strength of the local market without having to invest heavily in a unit. Although I sympathise with the argument that there are no/few suitable units in town, there were no units at all in town until businesses built them. Tk Maxx's in other areas have inner city premises, which would have required at least some modification. Penney's built a whole building from scratch. If they're making money, as they seem to be, they should be willing to invest -- or take the half-hearted approach of going into Railway sq. until the Newgate centre is built.

It is an awkward time for planning in Waterford city because we do have a shortage of units, and the Newgate centre is stalled for the moment because of the economic climate, but that cannot mean that the council should let comparison retail set up wherever it wants. There is too much at stake. If M&S, etc. opened on the ORR, what chance would the Newgate centre and the whole city centre have? It's frustrating, but Waterford has to stick to its guns, and the Newgate centre has to hit the ground running, with the best offering possible to ensure that the rest of the city centre is buoyant. Only then will Waterford draw the kind of crowds that the other major cities in Ireland attract.

Cabaal

merlante wrote: »

It doesn't take a genius to see that if M&S, TK Maxx, Next, etc. make a beeline for various locations around the inner and outer ring roads, that the city centre will die a death

Fair enough, but then the council should have started as they meant to go on, they shouldn't have allowed TK Maxx to open where they did in the first place.

Instead somebody in the council had their head up their arse and wasn't paying any attention to what every other TK Maxx store in the world sell! Its very basic stuff.

If Tk Maxx was in the city centre, those 60 people would have a much higher quality of life, with the range of eateries nearby for lunch, and with the possibility of doing daily shopping/other errands before they go home.

Thats open to debate,
Sure they'd have more choice food wise but then they'd also have to pay for daily parking which means they may actually have less money to spend in other business's.

merlante

Cabaal wrote: »

Fair enough, but then the council should have started as they meant to go on, they shouldn't have allowed TK Maxx to open where they did in the first place.

Instead somebody in the council had their head up their arse and wasn't paying any attention to what every other TK Maxx store in the world sell! Its very basic stuff.

In fairness, it's not up to the councillors. If a business submits a plan to sell X and selling X is in line with the local development plan, and there are no other reasons for denying permission, then permission should be granted. I mean, it's Tk Maxx's responsibility if they want to play games. They deliberately lied about what they wanted to sell in order to get permission, now they're paying the price. The council can't be getting into the business of second guessing all planning submissions.

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats open to debate,
Sure they'd have more choice food wise but then they'd also have to pay for daily parking which means they may actually have less money to spend in other business's.

Some staff will have to pay parking, many staff will live within walking distance or on a bus route. The greater expense is surely having to buy a car to go to work in the first place, which many/most staff will have to do as things stand, not to mention taxing and insuring it, and paying for fuel. I doubt most retail jobs really pay well enough to justify the purchase of a car for commuting purposes. (Buying a car is a big financial commitment just to be able to work.) And in such a small city as Waterford, where accommodation in or near the city centre is numerous and reasonably priced, there should be no reason why people should be forced to buy a car. (Fair enough, if people feel they really want a car and are willing to pay the associated costs -- that includes some parking charges.)

Putting shops and services in one place is obviously more efficient in general than spreading them out over a large area. Just looking at parking charges is too simplistic imho.

fricatus

Hopefully the City Council will make every effort to facilitate TK Maxx moving into the city centre as soon as possible, and hopefully in the midst of a recession we won't have to suffer serial objectors with too much time on their hands.

Equally though, I hope whatever they build is sensitive to the streets around it. The more I look at City Square, the more it looks to me like an eyesore, but Penney's have shown that quality is achievable within a tight enough construction deadline.

I'd second Merlante's points above about having to buy a car, and having to tax and insure it, etc., and I'd also add that having the likes of TK Maxx in the city centre opens up those job opportunities to people who can't or don't drive - a group often forgotten in this country!

By the way, isn't the second Penney's store in Railway Square still open, despite the John Roberts one being open now since before Christmas?

Silverado

fricatus wrote: »

By the way, isn't the second Penney's store in Railway Square still open, despite the John Roberts one being open now since before Christmas?

I passed it by the other day and it had a sign up saying that it closed on Jan 16.

decies

Heard yesterday a cafe owners business was way down because of a knock on effect of people being made let go or shorter worker hours.Less people around for sambos and lunch in general.Its a vicious circle down the town,you see the likes of hillfigger literally dying on its feet there,often only one staff on the floor,michael street looks terrible closed shops,johnny michael is retiring within the next few months.Its beginning to look weary,pennys is a lovely shop,but barronstrand street is still dead.I think the council need to start thinking outside the box on all this,before we do see nothing but boarded up shops and tumble weed in waterford city centre.

decies

Silverado wrote: »

I passed it by the other day and it had a sign up saying that it closed on Jan 16.

Tk max anyone??

longshanks

is there anything in the bescos premises on ballybricken. if not, with a bit of refurbishment could it be transformed into a half decent store? i'm sure a lot of the businesses up that way would appreciate the footfall.

shellykbookey

merlante wrote: »

The sooner that Newgate shopping centre gets built the better, then the likes of those shops can open in the city centre. It's a bit harsh to punish TKMaxx whilst there are currently no city centre units large enough to accomodate it, but the reality of the matter is that out of town shopping will not only kill the city centre but ultimately make are lives miserable due to the amount of driving we'll have to do, and time we'll have to invest, to compare prices on jackets or jeans or whatever. It's in the consumers best interest to offer the largest amount of choice in a single location.

I think that the council should nearly take a stake in the Newgate centre just to get it off the ground, if such a thing is legal.

The Newgate center would already be under construction if a certain serial objector hadn't stuck the ore in like every other project in the city. The whole TKMaxx thing is only flaring up now because of him as well. ABP needs to realise that there's a difference between reasonable objections to projects and there's obvious attempts to run the city into the ground

wmpdd3

In my opinion if TK Max was to move into the city they have to think about deliveries, about 120 cages of stock every week. That's 5 trucks in week. Ever seen the Argos truck trying to get to the store!

You're right about Besco, possibly Arrowmount furniture or Old Bolands.

fricatus

wmpdd3 wrote: »

In my opinion if TK Max was to move into the city they have to think about deliveries, about 120 cages of stock every week. That's 5 trucks in week. Ever seen the Argos truck trying to get to the store!

Well I'm sure they would have plenty of expertise in that sort of thing, given that they're in Stephen's Green in Dublin, Castlecourt in Belfast, McDonagh Junction in Kilkenny, and Prospect Hill in the centre of Galway.

Sure it would be a squeeze, but I have no doubt they'd manage!

Cabaal

fricatus wrote: »

McDonagh Junction in Kilkenny,

which has proper purpose built delivery entrances for trucks and also more turning space etc

fricatus

Cabaal wrote: »

which has proper purpose built delivery entrances for trucks and also more turning space etc

My point is that they have city-centre locations all over the place, and that they manage to get deliveries to them. If they have to locate in Waterford city centre, they will of course face logistical challenges like they would anywhere, but they'll get over them.