Private clampers

stealthyspeeder

Victor wrote: »

http://gofree.indigo.ie/~vcahill/huntstown/newsnov03.html#story23

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/replacing-clamp-damaged-by-cabbie-to-cost-2100-201728.html

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2004/0123/1074675698161.html (Archived)

Thanks for the link, however this clamping company operated for dublin city council on public roads not a private land owner. Big difference and different law.

Victor

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Thanks for the link, however this clamping company operated for dublin city council on public roads not a private land owner. Big difference and different law.

Doesn't affect the cost of clamps.

stealthyspeeder

Victor wrote: »

Doesn't affect the cost of clamps.

The clamps the guys in the City centre use are a lot more robust than the ones the NCPS guys use. Totally different mechanism of clamping and made of hardened steel! the NCPS ones have a thin triangular sheet of metal rimmed with a lead pipe and and a hardened chain. much simpler and a lot cleaper to produce I would asssume.

Cuddlesworth

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

The clamps the guys in the City centre use are a lot more robust than the ones the NCPS guys use. Totally different mechanism of clamping and made of hardened steel! the NCPS ones have a thin triangular sheet of metal rimmed with a lead pipe and and a hardened chain. much simpler and a lot cleaper to produce I would asssume.

How often do you get clamped?

The Yipper

Wishbone Ash
Sorry mate...looks like you were had.
No Estate Security in Phonebook or in Company Registration Office.
The fact that they only take cash is another eyeopener...and the company name on the clamp doesn't look too professional either....I could be wrong, but I honestly think you've been ripped off.
I really hope I'm wrong!

stealthyspeeder

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

How often do you get clamped?

a few times! but whenever I see some else getting clamped, I feel sorry for them, and get a rage towards the clampers for them! plus im always ready to help anyone I see clamped if their trying to get it off!

Our man in Havana

Victor wrote: »

http://gofree.indigo.ie/~vcahill/huntstown/newsnov03.html#story23

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/replacing-clamp-damaged-by-cabbie-to-cost-2100-201728.html

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2004/0123/1074675698161.html (Archived)

All those refer to council clampers. They have statute law behind their actions.

Victor

Bond-007 wrote: »

All those refer to council clampers. They have statute law behind their actions.

I've answered the question already. I only gave to links regarding the price of the clamps.

conlonbmw

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

a few times! but whenever I see some else getting clamped, I feel sorry for them, and get a rage towards the clampers for them! plus im always ready to help anyone I see clamped if their trying to get it off!

I have just read the links.

Clamps come in packets of four for €2,000, thats fu*kin hilarious

I understand DCC employed contractor on public streets is different to private property.

Are we all agreed here that if you get clamped on private grounds you just remove the clamp and make sure that it is never found. Only in very rare circ. will this go any further.


I have some more questions about the links, sorry in advance if they are simplistic.

Has anyone received threatening behaviour from clamper when you remove the clamp in front of them.


How did the taxi driver end up in a scuffle?
If I was removing a clamp I would be ignoring anyone around me so the clampers must have tried to stop him.


How is it legal for a clamper to try and block you in?
This cannot be legal, it has to fall under remit of illegal detention, Garda should have arrested clampers.

Can you be detained by clampers?

Why did they use 2 clamps?

Why was Taxi driver also fined €600 for breach of the peace?

Cuddlesworth

conlonbmw wrote: »

I have just read the links.

Clamps come in packets of four for €2,000, thats fu*kin hilarious

I understand DCC employed contractor on public streets is different to private property.

Are we all agreed here that if you get clamped on private grounds you just remove the clamp and make sure that it is never found. Only in very rare circ. will this go any further.


I have some more questions about the links, sorry in advance if they are simplistic.

Has anyone received threatening behaviour from clamper when you remove the clamp in front of them.


How did the taxi driver end up in a scuffle?
If I was removing a clamp I would be ignoring anyone around me so the clampers must have tried to stop him.


How is it legal for a clamper to try and block you in?
This cannot be legal, it has to fall under remit of illegal detention, Garda should have arrested clampers.

Can you be detained by clampers?

Why did they use 2 clamps?

Why was Taxi driver also fined €600 for breach of the peace?

Read the thread.

There is a large difference in Clampers like in the links who are a private company enforcing public parking laws and a private company in this case enforcing private estate rules.

The issue is that the private clampers on private estates or private clampers on public roads(who are not licensed to do so) are themselves detaining cars illegally and would find it difficult to win court cases, hence nothing I have ever heard about anything actually going to court. Myself and a few others have stripped clamps from NCPS(who seem to be huge in Dublin) with nothing said or done afterwards. My car is still parked in the estate.

Eru

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Myself and a few others have stripped clamps from NCPS(who seem to be huge in Dublin) with nothing said or done afterwards. My car is still parked in the estate.

Guys there is nothing written in stone here. I really must advise caution here as A, You could be the one in court waiting for a Judge to make a 'case law' judgement which wont be fun and B, you have absolutely no right whatsover to remove a clamp from someone elses car. You dont own either property!

conlonbmw wrote: »

How did the taxi driver end up in a scuffle?

He was approached by the clamper and ended up pushing them according to the news links.

conlonbmw wrote: »

How is it legal for a clamper to try and block you in?

Yes they have the same rights to protect their property as you do. Asking can they block you in when your damaging their property and / or stealing it is the same as asking if you can stop and detain a person stealing your car stereo. FYI, same as shop security as well.

conlonbmw wrote: »

This cannot be legal, it has to fall under remit of illegal detention, Garda should have arrested clampers.

As above, think about it. Of course its legal. Why is it legal for you to destroy someone elses property and then also steal it but illegal for them to stop you?

conlonbmw wrote: »

Can you be detained by clampers?

As above. Yes you can. Same as shop security stopping a shoplifter or you stopping someone taking your car or your TV or your mobile phone.

conlonbmw wrote: »

Why did they use 2 clamps?

That I cant answer. Perhaps it was standard practice at the time for that company.

conlonbmw wrote: »

Why was Taxi driver also fined €600 for breach of the peace?

As he was commiting an offence under the Public order Act 1994. Using threatening, abusive and / or insulting behaviour in a public place. Liken it to a guy walking up and pushing you aggresively on a Saturday night as your getting your chips.

Lauder

From my understanding of recent case law. A non-Council clamper has to ask for your permission before they can clamp you! Hard to believe but someone won a case against private clampers in the courts recently. You have every right to cut it off, as they have no (legal) right to clamp you.

Stephen

Surely you could argue that they (private, non-council clampers) are effectively stealing your property by preventing you from using it with their clamp?

Paulw

Lauder wrote: »

From my understanding of recent case law. A non-Council clamper has to ask for your permission before they can clamp you! Hard to believe but someone won a case against private clampers in the courts recently. You have every right to cut it off, as they have no (legal) right to clamp you.

Have you got a link the case law in question?

samsemtex

Eru wrote: »

As above, think about it. Of course its legal. Why is it legal for you to destroy someone elses property and then also steal it but illegal for them to stop you?

You are allowed to take reasonable steps to remove an obstruction. Just as if someone had locked you in a room you are allowed to break it down to get out.

As above. Yes you can. Same as shop security stopping a shoplifter or you stopping someone taking your car or your TV or your mobile phone.
.

That is a pretty idiotic comparison. You are not committing a crime in the case of parking. You are at worst committing a trespass which is a civil matter.

conlonbmw

Eru wrote: »

Guys there is nothing written in stone here. I really must advise caution here as A, You could be the one in court waiting for a Judge to make a 'case law' judgement which wont be fun and B, you have absolutely no right whatsover to remove a clamp from someone elses car. You dont own either property!



He was approached by the clamper and ended up pushing them according to the news links.


Yes they have the same rights to protect their property as you do. Asking can they block you in when your damaging their property and / or stealing it is the same as asking if you can stop and detain a person stealing your car stereo. FYI, same as shop security as well.



As above, think about it. Of course its legal. Why is it legal for you to destroy someone elses property and then also steal it but illegal for them to stop you?



As above. Yes you can. Same as shop security stopping a shoplifter or you stopping someone taking your car or your TV or your mobile phone.



That I cant answer. Perhaps it was standard practice at the time for that company.



As he was commiting an offence under the Public order Act 1994. Using threatening, abusive and / or insulting behaviour in a public place. Liken it to a guy walking up and pushing you aggresively on a Saturday night as your getting your chips.

Thanks for the reply but it still does not explain certain issues.

I cannot be stopped removing an item from my car other than by being physically restrained, which is an assault on my person. Can I detain them for that assault.

If they block me in with a vehicle then that vehicle must be parked illegally as well, can the gardai issue them a ticket.

Eru

samsemtex wrote: »

You are allowed to take reasonable steps to remove an obstruction. Just as if someone had locked you in a room you are allowed to break it down to get out.at

Thats ok mate, argue the law with the serving Garda on the web if you want. Im not the one that will end trying to argue it with a judge. Your only allowed break down the door if said detention is unlawful and thats a seperate set of rules to what we are dealing with. Its not for you to decide whats lawful or not, its for a judge. Put another way, court cases show the clampers are winning and the clamped losing. When you can show proof of that being the other way around then I will accept your view. In other words, your understanding of the various laws concerning this action is limited. Not completely wrong but your using one section and ignoring another plus applying the same rule to different situations gthat are not compatable. You dont own the clamp, and as such its questionable if your actions are justified. Again, questionable. test it and let me know how you get on.

Also, what reasonable steps have you taken before you break and take the clamp? If your neighbour blocks your driveway can you drive his car into the Liffey?

samsemtex wrote: »

That is a pretty idiotic comparison. You are not committing a crime in the case of parking. You are at worst committing a trespass which is a civil matter.

No your not your commiting a traffic offence which is not civil. You are however commiting a crime by removing and taking a clamp. Read posts before responding and again, stop talking about civil trespass, your plain and simple wrong in your understanding of what trespass is and when it applies. This in turn is giving people are dangerous misunderstanding of the situation.

Stephen wrote: »

Surely you could argue that they (private, non-council clampers) are effectively stealing your property by preventing you from using it with their clamp?

Yes you could argue this point and I personally think its a decent arguement but the point Im making is that its your argument against theirs and you could lose. Not saying you will but you could. Remember, its private property, same rules dont apply in all areas. Also, judge may agree with your original opinion but disagree with how you handled it.

conlonbmw wrote: »

I cannot be stopped removing an item from my car other than by being physically restrained, which is an assault on my person. Can I detain them for that assault.

If your being arrested and the Garda restrains you is that also assault? Again I repeat, you removing an item from YOUR car is the exact same as them protecting THEIR Clamp. Its not one rule for them and another for you. In the case above, the clampers were authorised agents of the council. They clamped a vehicle in a public place legally. They have every right to protect their property which was legally attached to your vehicle and have a citizens power of detention for criminal damage and / or theft the exact same as a security guard.

conlonbmw wrote: »

If they block me in with a vehicle then that vehicle must be parked illegally as well, can the gardai issue them a ticket.

Again, they are authorised to park illegaly in the same way that Gardai are. In the execution of their duties. Any person can however use their vehicle to stop a criminal (which is what you now are) from evading justice. Again, if you saw a bank robbery and blocked the escape vehicle in would you reasonable expect a ticket and prosecution? Maybe the bank robber could legally shoot you as your blocking his property????

The main problem I see here is people dont A, realise what authority they and in fact, all people can act and when as well as B, placing themselves higher up than the clamper and other people.

Stark

I think you're overestimating a citizen's power to make an arrest. A Garda has more powers than a citizen does. A citizen can only detain someone in the case of an arrestable offence where they would otherwise escape arrest by the Gardaí. In the case of the clamp, the clamper would have had the registration details of the car so it would be hard for them to argue that the person in question would have escaped Garda arrest if they hadn't detained them.

samsemtex

Eru wrote: »

Thats ok mate, argue the law with the serving Garda on the web if you want. Im not the one that will end trying to argue it with a judge.

Wow, a member of the Gardai. What was i thinking arguing a point with someone who has Templemore levels of legal education? Argue the law with someone doing a masters in Law if you want :rolleyes:. Im by no means an expert on clamping but i have a fair idea of the law.

Your only allowed break down the door if said detention is unlawful and thats a seperate set of rules to what we are dealing with. Its not for you to decide whats lawful or not, its for a judge. Put another way, court cases show the clampers are winning and the clamped losing. When you can show proof of that being the other way around then I will accept your view.

There are almost no cases concerning clamping on private property in this jusisdiction.

In other words, your understanding of the various laws concerning this action is limited. Not completely wrong but your using one section and ignoring another plus applying the same rule to different situations gthat are not compatable. You dont own the clamp, and as such its questionable if your actions are justified. Again, questionable. test it and let me know how you get on.

They dont own your car. Their rights to put a clamp on it and interfere with your constitutional property rights are at least as questionable as it is for you to remove said clamp.

Also, what reasonable steps have you taken before you break and take the clamp? If your neighbour blocks your driveway can you drive his car into the Liffey?

Obviously reasonable steps only extend so far and it is for the judge to decide if the steps you have taken were reasonable. Refusing to pay €600 as a clamp release fee could very easily be argued as reasonable grounds for removing a clamp.

No your not your commiting a traffic offence which is not civil. You are however commiting a crime by removing and taking a clamp. Read posts before responding and again, stop talking about civil trespass, your plain and simple wrong in your understanding of what trespass is and when it applies. This in turn is giving people are dangerous misunderstanding of the situation.

Dear God, what do they actually teach you lads about the law in templemore? Private property is not governed by the Road Traffic Acts. The situation we are talking about involves a clamp being placed on a car in a private car park. If you are going to lecture me on the law try understanding it yourself first.

Eru

Stark wrote: »

I think you're overestimating a citizen's power to make an arrest. A Garda has more powers than a citizen does. A citizen can only detain someone in the case of an arrestable offence where they would otherwise escape arrest by the Gardaí. In the case of the clamp, the clamper would have had the registration details of the car so it would be hard for them to argue that the person in question would have escaped Garda arrest if they hadn't detained them.

Having a reg doesnt mean anything really. You could have that for any number of reasons unrelated to the actual incident. Power of arrest doesnt change a persons right to defend their own property. If you know the person stealing your car you can still intervene because its your property and you only need to believe they will try to evade capture which by running away they are clearly doing.

samsemtex wrote: »

Wow, a member of the Gardai. What was i thinking arguing a point with someone who has Templemore levels of legal education? Argue the law with someone doing a masters in Law if you want :rolleyes:. Im by no means an expert on clamping but i have a fair idea of the law.

Your right, my statement was arrogant however there is a big difference between studying a subject and practicing that subject every day having actually qualified in it and who said I didnt attend and finish college before joining AGS? Heaven forbid, the very idea! :eek:

samsemtex wrote: »

There are almost no cases concerning clamping on private property in this jusisdiction.

Agreed and as a result no one can say yes or no to the underlying question concerning clamping on private property. Its interesting to see a number of cases in the UK with different results. Its feasible that similar decisions may be reached in the Republic. (http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/137863-clamping-guide.html)

samsemtex wrote: »

They dont own your car. Their rights to put a clamp on it and interfere with your constitutional property rights are at least as questionable as it is for you to remove said clamp.

I agree that this is the case. The area it gets grey is because your not just dealing with another person that is equal in law and rights. If the clamper just came along and clamped you I would agree your very much safe removing the clamp but in the case where they are operating under agreement with a management company, etc your on less certain ground.

samsemtex wrote: »

Obviously reasonable steps only extend so far and it is for the judge to decide if the steps you have taken were reasonable. Refusing to pay €600 as a clamp release fee could very easily be argued as reasonable grounds for removing a clamp.

Again, possible. I refer you to the UK decisions as there is mention of reasonable amounts. Its an estate by estate basis to a degree and depends on what is in your lease. Then theres the issue concerning non lease holders. Say someone thats just visiting or happened to drive in? Can only the owner of the parking place take issue or can a clamping company do so? Should they have contacted AGS to deal with it in the first place instead of clamping or is there any offence of any kind being commited? Too many questions and factors to make a definitive decision.

samsemtex wrote: »

Dear God, what do they actually teach you lads about the law in templemore? Private property is not governed by the Road Traffic Acts. The situation we are talking about involves a clamp being placed on a car in a private car park. If you are going to lecture me on the law try understanding it yourself first.

I enforce and deal with these laws everyday, you as yet do not. I made a mistake in my post. I meant to say its NOT traffic or civil trespass as Im refering to removal and taking the clamp on the basis that they have interfered with your property which is criminal law. My whole basis for posting concerning the removal of the clamp which could fall within the boundary of theft and / or criminal damage. This subject centers around a persons right to free movement, private property protection, criminal damage and theft for both parties concerned.

In the case where you take the clamp thats theft regardless of all other factors so lets stick to your property being detained V removing the clamp as were going down roads we dont need to. My stance is it depends on the lease agreement if your a tenent. If your not then your tresspassing but it really depends on your intent and actions. This in turn decides what action can be taken against you.

We both agree that theres an arguement there, just not how certain it is. If you want to test it, work away by all means and I hope you win or at the very least some guidelines are put in place.

Victor

Honestly lads, the desperate sea-lawyering is just that - desperate.

Lauder wrote: »

From my understanding of recent case law.

Link please.

Stephen wrote: »

Surely you could argue that they (private, non-council clampers) are effectively stealing your property by preventing you from using it with their clamp?

So its OK to break into the the dry cleaner's at 3am to retrieve my suit? It is my suit after all.

And aren't you stealing money's worth from them by improper parking / trespass?

samsemtex wrote: »

You are allowed to take reasonable steps to remove an obstruction. Just as if someone had locked you in a room you are allowed to break it down to get out.

What is the the differnce between a car park operator lokcing up for the night or clmaping you. Would you force the car park gate?

You are not committing a crime in the case of parking. You are at worst committing a trespass which is a civil matter.

Trespass is a crime. That most tresspasses are dealt with as civil matters is largely irrelevant. Illegal parking and criminal damage to a clamp are crimes.

conlonbmw wrote: »

I cannot be stopped removing an item from my car other than by being physically restrained,

"Oi! What do you think you're doing?" (or its working class equivalent) usually has an effect. Alternatively "'Ere mate can we discuss this for a moment". Second clamper stands in front of clamp.

which is an assault on my person. Can I detain them for that assault.

No. Assault isn't a serious enough offence. Criminal damage > assault. Theft > assault.

If they block me in with a vehicle then that vehicle must be parked illegally as well, can the gardai issue them a ticket.

No, they have exemptions from the parking rules.

Stark wrote: »

I think you're overestimating a citizen's power to make an arrest. A Garda has more powers than a citizen does. A citizen can only detain someone in the case of an arrestable offence where they would otherwise escape arrest by the Gardaí. In the case of the clamp, the clamper would have had the registration details of the car so it would be hard for them to argue that the person in question would have escaped Garda arrest if they hadn't detained them.

You can arrest anyone you see committing a crime where the maximum sentence is ten years or more. If the Garda isn't present, they can't make and arrest, so you can. Obviously if the Garda is there, you don't interfere.

samsemtex wrote: »

They dont own your car. Their rights to put a clamp on it and interfere with your constitutional property rights are at least as questionable as it is for you to remove said clamp.

Sure, questionable. So why, in thousands of clmapsings, has nobody ever sued the clampers?

Obviously reasonable steps only extend so far and it is for the judge to decide if the steps you have taken were reasonable.

Absolutely. But may I ask why aggrieved motorists have never taken a case?

Refusing to pay €600 as a clamp release fee could very easily be argued as reasonable grounds for removing a clamp.

Sure, it does seem unreasonable. In this one particular isolated case.

Dear God, what do they actually teach you lads about the law in templemore? Private property is not governed by the Road Traffic Acts. The situation we are talking about involves a clamp being placed on a car in a private car park. If you are going to lecture me on the law try understanding it yourself first.

If you hadn't noticed, the conversation has moved on to the Onuke case.

stealthyspeeder

Victor wrote: »

Sure, questionable. So why, in thousands of clmapsings, has nobody ever sued the clampers?
Absolutely. But may I ask why aggrieved motorists have never taken a case?

Great post, I think your spot with everything you've said, I think I may be able to have a stab at answering the quoted questions.

The hassle involed in sued a company would have to be weighed up against the expected benefit from sueing and the probability of winning the case.

Firstly the existance of clamping companies compensation or refund scheme (virtually non existant but if someone is cleary right and threaten legal action) will result in them getting their money back (this seriously reduces the amount the motorist could gain from sueing as the judge would see that the motorist has got his money back)

Secondly the legal cost in taking up a case (someone who can afford this will be easily able to afford the clamp fee so may not be (comparitively) as bitter and angry as someone on a smaller budget.

Third, the time, effort and stress involved in taking up the case

So for a case, we need a rich, rightously indignant person with plenty of time on their hands to get clamped without justification, who goes through the clampers clamp release system, is denied by their compenstion scheme, starts legal proceedings and will not resolve the case outside of court once the clampers have been notified of the intended prosecution!!

I think this may be why we haven't seen any clamping court cases!

Mr Benevolent

Did anybody else read the title and start singing

I'm a private clamper,
clamping for money,
and any old vehicle will do

?

xt40

Eru wrote: »

You are however commiting a crime by removing and taking a clamp.

REALLY. the other day, someone placed a leaflet under my wipers in a car park. i drove away with it still there. by your logic, i was committing a crime.
all the leaflet company have to do is ring up the cops and its off to court for me.

if , instead of placing the clamp on my wheel , the clampers opened the passenger door and left it on the passenger seat, would i be committing a crime by driving away and keeping it. of course i wouldnt. you cant be charged with stealing something gifted to you.
whats the difference between leaving it on the seat, roof, wheel . answer - none. you cant go about abandoning stuff / giving it away and then claiming theft.

Victor

xt40 wrote: »

whats the difference between leaving it on the seat, roof, wheel .

Intention.

samsemtex

Victor wrote: »

Honestly lads, the desperate sea-lawyering is just that - desperate.
Link please.
So its OK to break into the the dry cleaner's at 3am to retrieve my suit? It is my suit after all.

And aren't you stealing money's worth from them by improper parking / trespass?
What is the the differnce between a car park operator lokcing up for the night or clmaping you. Would you force the car park gate?
Trespass is a crime. That most tresspasses are dealt with as civil matters is largely irrelevant. Illegal parking and criminal damage to a clamp are crimes.
"Oi! What do you think you're doing?" (or its working class equivalent) usually has an effect. Alternatively "'Ere mate can we discuss this for a moment". Second clamper stands in front of clamp.
No. Assault isn't a serious enough offence. Criminal damage > assault. Theft > assault.
No, they have exemptions from the parking rules.
You can arrest anyone you see committing a crime where the maximum sentence is ten years or more. If the Garda isn't present, they can't make and arrest, so you can. Obviously if the Garda is there, you don't interfere.
Sure, questionable. So why, in thousands of clmapsings, has nobody ever sued the clampers?
Absolutely. But may I ask why aggrieved motorists have never taken a case?
Sure, it does seem unreasonable. In this one particular isolated case.
If you hadn't noticed, the conversation has moved on to the Onuke case.

Your fundamental lack of knowledge of the law is really quite shocking. For a start tresspass is NOT a crime. It is a tort. It will only become a crime if it is aggravated. "illegal" parking on private property is not a crime either. Its an unlawful act which is a civil matter. Comparing breaking into a dry cleaners to clamping is ridiculous. If you had been asked could they clamp your car and then agreed to it and then decided to cut off the clamp your argument might hold some weight.

Victor

samsemtex wrote: »

For a start tresspass is NOT a crime.

Housing Acts. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0009/sec0024.html#partiii-sec24

"illegal" parking on private property is not a crime either.

Oh, not only did you miss that the conversation has moved on, but you also missed me saying that it has moved on.

Comparing breaking into a dry cleaners to clamping is ridiculous.

So when you go into the buffet restaurant and start eating, by your reckoning, there is no contract?

samsemtex

Victor wrote: »

Housing Acts. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0009/sec0024.html#partiii-sec24

Read section 19c of that statute and you will see that you have just backed up exactly what i said.

Oh, not only did you miss that the conversation has moved on, but you also missed me saying that it has moved on.

The person i was talking to ie. NOT YOU! didnt have any problem with what i said in response to him and he took my points as i intended them. I dont recall him asking for your help.

So when you go into the buffet restaurant and start eating, by your reckoning, there is no contract?

Again this makes no sense. That is in relation to a contract. There is an implied agreement in this situation and no wrong is being committed unless you walk out without paying. Yes it could be argued that there is an implied agreement with the clampers on private property but that doesnt necessarily mean they can interfere with your property rights. That is the issue and that is why i think they have been very slow to take cases against people who have removed their clamps. This is why we need a case on it and it will be very interesting.

Eru

when you eat in a buffet restaurant you can be arrested and in fact detained by staff if you refuse to pay. Therefore its a valid comparison. Contract / no contract. Doesnt matter. The agreement is implied and I believe this applies to certain private clamping such as shopping centre car parks. Otherwise you could stop at the barrier, abandon your car and walk away which I dont think would be a good situation for Mr driver behind you. In fact he may well become annoyed and punch you on the nose

Also, Im afraid I dont know where your getting this 'trespass is a civil matter unless theres violence involved' stuff. thats not true at all and the housing act states simple that if someone enters without permission and interferes with the lawful use of said land, they are commiting an offence of tresspass. The fact that the Gardai are involved shows its a criminal offence without any violence. Also the Public Order Act requires no violence of any description, just intent to commit a crime. We all know this means mostly theft, burglary and criminal damage. Again theft does not involve any violence and more importantly, the intent is not limited to those offences. It could be something lesser such as squatting.

Same for private property, RTA does not apply but many many other laws do so I dont undertstand you comment "Its an illegal act but civil". I cant murder the Missus when I get home, My bloody castle or not and trust me, I get tempted! Theres obstruction and interference for starters on both sides. If you parked illegally arent you interfering with the owners use of their property? Now Im not suggesting this is the whole and simple answer to the question of clamping, Im just pointing ut out.

Can we all agree that theres merit to the arguement but theres also some evidence against it and were really not going to know for sure until a Judge in a big chair in a high court tells us? Otherwise I think were going in circles with the OP probable long gone and asleep.

xt40 wrote: »

REALLY. the other day, someone placed a leaflet under my wipers in a car park. i drove away with it still there. by your logic, i was committing a crime.
all the leaflet company have to do is ring up the cops and its off to court for me.

if , instead of placing the clamp on my wheel , the clampers opened the passenger door and left it on the passenger seat, would i be committing a crime by driving away and keeping it. of course i wouldnt. you cant be charged with stealing something gifted to you.
whats the difference between leaving it on the seat, roof, wheel . answer - none. you cant go about abandoning stuff / giving it away and then claiming theft.

Oh Jesus :rolleyes:

Look up Section 4, Criminal Justice (Theft and fraud offences) Act 2001. You did not reasonable belief that you had permission or permission would have been given if sought to remove the clamp. Thats the only defence permitted for taking someone elses property without their direct consent under said act.

Otherwise based on your arguement you can simple take someones property if they leave it down for more than 5 seconds. "Hey ho, bike for me, it wasnt locked that well afterall! And whats this? Some kind person has left their phone and wallet on the table beside me, how nice of them. Afterall, they didnt actually tell me not to take them and it was just left there"

In fact, does this also mean that if I handcuff someone they now own my handcuffs? This may get pricey! :eek:

dnally1983

Hello everybody,

I have a small group of people who have had similar issues with NCPS. We have received no response from NCPS in our request for a refund.

In each situation, there was inadequate signage highlighting the fact that clamping was in operation in the area. We have photographic evidence of this, along with our correspondance with NCPS.

We are now progressing to take NCPS to court to recoup the clamping fees unfairly levied upon us.

If anyone else wishes to be involved in this action, please can you e-mail david.nally@three.ie with your details & we will enter into discussion regarding the matter.

We are making our submission on 18/08/2009. Anyone wishing to join us will need to get their details in before close of business on 17/08/2009.

Our man in Havana

You have my 100% support.

dnally1983

Okay, if you want to be included in the action please can you email your details to me & I will send a group e-mail to all interested parties on Tuesday 18th advising of how many respondants I have.

In your email please include contact details & particulars of your incident with NCPS please.

Stark

The issues I have were with APOCOA unfortunately but best of luck with this. It's heartening to see someone taking a stand.

yupyup7up

I got clamped a few times in Limerick IT, 1st time I just had to pay it (€60), second time, the car park was completely full bu there was a hatched area that was free(I know i shouldnt have parked there) but was late for class so I did cuz it didnt block anyone, came back and jacked the car up and started to dismantle the wishbone. 2 of clampers came up and started taking pictures of me taking it off but i had a hood up. Got the clamp of after 15 minutes. handed it to them, told them f*ck off and to stay the hell away from my car and drove off. the 3rd time, I reported it to the estates manager and he made them take it off because I pointed out the fact that there was no signs around!(someone had taken them down? ) and the 4th time, I was clamped but there was a dispute going on over who owned the land that the clampers patrolled and over who had initially hired them so that one was taken off too!

Me - 3, Clamping NCPS pr1cks - 1

Cuddlesworth

dnally1983 wrote: »

Okay, if you want to be included in the action please can you email your details to me & I will send a group e-mail to all interested parties on Tuesday 18th advising of how many respondants I have.

In your email please include contact details & particulars of your incident with NCPS please.

You would be best starting a new thread as a large majority of people will read the first page and then go off on a rant rather then contributing. See below.

As for myself, I would love to help but NCPS have never recieved money from me to appeal back. The have never received there clamps back either.

yupyup7up wrote: »

I got clamped a few times in Limerick IT, 1st time I just had to pay it (€60), second time, the car park was completely full bu there was a hatched area that was free(I know i shouldnt have parked there) but was late for class so I did cuz it didnt block anyone, came back and jacked the car up and started to dismantle the wishbone. 2 of clampers came up and started taking pictures of me taking it off but i had a hood up. Got the clamp of after 15 minutes. handed it to them, told them f*ck off and to stay the hell away from my car and drove off. the 3rd time, I reported it to the estates manager and he made them take it off because I pointed out the fact that there was no signs around!(someone had taken them down? ) and the 4th time, I was clamped but there was a dispute going on over who owned the land that the clampers patrolled and over who had initially hired them so that one was taken off too!

Me - 3, Clamping NCPS pr1cks - 1

pablosd

moose112 wrote: »

I just hung up on her, started my generator and cut the clamp off with a grinder (and not to be littering brought the clamp with me and threw it in a skip when i got home). .

what a legend, i love you man, dats the way to do it,
i heard about some lads in england that have a business which is basically cutting off the private clamps, it was on fifth gear while ago, legends