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Anti feminist women
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Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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No added cost to the economy, but a massive rise in your tax and PRSI payments.
Maternity/Paternity benefit costs money, either the taxpayer pays it or the economy. Somebody has to!
I think you may have misinterpreted my post, my point was that if the current structure of six months paid leave (paid meaning at the min. Social Fund Maternity leave) were changed so that it was six months parental leave, then this would afford the opportunity for a couple with a new baby to choose e.g. for Mum to take four months paid leave and Dad to take two, or any combination of the two.
This would imo both make the system more gender neutral, and also in some cases, actually lower the burden on the tax system and on employers.
An example I can give is of a female contractor who is classed as a self employed director earning €100k per year.
If she takes six months maternity leave, she is unpaid as she is not entitled to maternity benefit, therefore she pays no tax in those six months.
If however her partner (and lets assume he's a normal PAYE worker for the sake of argument
) can take four of those six months as leave, then the woman in the relationship can go back to work, earn her living, pay her taxes, whilst her partner claims the leave and the State more than likely benefits in net tax receipts.
It's not as outlandish as it may at first seem, and it gives far more equality to the whole equation. I read an article recently that the majority of entrepreneurs in Ireland are women (I'll root it out if anyone wants proof), most of these would be classed as self employed and maternity leave for them means no income.
Making leave following the birth of a child gender neutral imo would pay huge dividendsHow BTW are teachers on maternity leave paid?
AFAIK like many public and private sector workers on a permanent contract, teachers on maternity leave are paid their full salary less maternity benefit.
Teachers on a temporary contract I imagine are not entitled to such benefits and would be reliant on maternity benefit based on their PRSI contributions.Feminism has granted to women the right to work and earn (though equal wages are still a dream
I may be an exception here, but I've worked a fair few jobs since I was sixteen (I'm 36 this year) and have never worked the same job as a guy for less pay, be that in Eddie Rockets, McDonalds or several blue chip firms, and that's based both on having close friends who were colleagues in those jobs, and being a manager and seeing pay scales/rates amongst men and women.
As I said, perhaps I have been very lucky.brianthebard wrote: »How is it not anti woman to suggest they provide a service that is more costly, inefficient and disruptive?
Brian, whilst I would never suggest that women provide a service that is more costly, inefficient, and disruptive, I can see the logic in the point you are arguing against, see below in response to taconnol if you wouldn't mindWhy shuold maternity leave matter that much? Many women are happy taking 6 months. I don't see why 6 months of absence shoud have such a incredibly large impact on women
I can tbh, but it's personal reflection Since 2005 I've had five different jobs and am currently in the middle of a three year contract. Some of my previous roles were less than five months in duration, and in my current role, if I were to become pregnant and combine 26 weeks paid maternity leave with the five weeks holidays I am entitled to, plus the 16 weeks unpaid leave that's a total of 47 weeks leave that I would take continuously, which is essentially a year were I to split the leave over two years and take two blocks of five weeks holidays.
That's one third of my contract, and given that I work in a relatively specialised role, it would a. have a huge impact on my employer, colleagues and manager, and b. have a significant impact on my prospects career wise.
Even if I took the bare minimum of six months the impact for me personally would be significant, if I look back six months in terms of work, it's a different place than it is at the present time.
Now I have to admit here that I am very focussed on work, thoroughly enjoy it, and do not want to have children, and am unlikely to do so, but from my perspective I can see how maternity leave does impact on women even if they take just the six months minimum leave.
As i've posted above, parental leave would imo go a long way towards negating that impact.
As an aside, and being pedantic, whilst Ireland does not provide for any paternal leave following the birth of a child, both male and female parents are each entitled to take 14 weeks unpaid (yes I know it's unpaid) parental leave per year, until a child is eight. Rather a skewed system as it obviously benefits those who can manipulate the tax system (i.e. those on more than the average industrial wage) to their benefit, but a very small start.tallaght01 wrote: »Problem arises with multiple babies. In medicine, the jobs come in 6 month blocks. So, if you want anymore than 6 months, then you're into a year. many doctors in particular want to breastfeed up to a year. This is impossible when you're doing shifts up to 72 hours long, and doing a 24 hour shift every 3rd or 4th day.
So, if a doctor has 4 kids it's usually at least 4 years away. That's a long time to let your skills become rusty. It's also a long time living a normal life. I don't blame women for not wanting to go back to slave labour after being off for a long time.
With other professional jobs, presumably it's just a case of you being a few years behind your classmates.
Women, rightly or wrongly, do tend to often go part time after having babies. That reduces opportunities too. They also seem to have a lot more responsibility for kids at times. For example, we had a bit of an emergency at work last friday evening. The guys all stayed back until 8pm, as did the one single woman. The 3 married ladies all refused to stay because of childcare concerns etc.
I say fair play to them, though. Like I said before, it's just work.
Very well put, thanks.
The working time directive is a step in the right direction, but aside from doctors, it also doesn't cover employees above a certain grade iirc.
tallaght01 - I think there are bigger issues at play there with work practices for doctors, particularly junior doctors. I have heard from a friend that Ireland prefers to pay the fine for not being compliant with the EU Working Time Directive so that medical professionals can be forced to work ridiculous hours. I personally don't want to be dealt with by a doctor who has been working for 40 hours non-stop.
I've had experience in the past two years of working from 6am straight through to 3am and being back in the office at 8:30 (not including a commute of an hour each way)
It was accepted as common practice in the particular company I worked in, and in the sector I work in, it's accepted that you stay until you fix an issue/meet a deadline an awful lot of the time.deafening silence on the myth of alcholic male teachers.
A study in the past four years on health issues of teachers in Northern Ireland would appear to back you up, as would one done in France, in that teachers full stop are less likely than the average person to suffer from alcohol dependancy.tallaght01 wrote: »
If I had kids I would have done everything possible to not have to leave work.
But, they know where they want to be at 8pm on a friday night. And I think they're right.
Ref. the point in bold, I'd be the same, but that's said as a non parent
As for point two, I'd agreetallaght01 wrote: »
I can only speak anecdotally, as I suspect you are, but all my married friends are equals in the relationship. I would say their wives tend to be the ones who rush home from work if the kids are ill etc, but not because they have to. I think it's a kind of mother's instinct for want of a better description.
I also think, anecdotally, that feminists do look down on housewives. A close friend happens to be married to a lecturer in feminism studies, and as a result I socaialise a bit within the card-carrying academic feminism community. They constantly use the phrase "just a housewife" when talking to me about the evolution of women's rights.
Ref your point in bold, rather weirdly I've had the opposite experience, mainly because I work in a team of 90% men and 10% women, the guys regularly take time off for PTA meetings, childhood injuries and illnesses etc, and they tend to share this with their partners from what I can gather, even down to scheduling holidays for half term etc.
It's nice to see.
I find there is a big difference in academic and grassroots feminism.
I am not a housewife ( I am not married ) I am just a stay at home
Mammy with two kids and a cat. I am a feminist and I do my bit for informing
and empowering women ( and parents ). Being just a stay at home
mammy enables me to do this and be active in my local community and
volunteer in my kid's primary school.
I agree ref grassroots and academic feminism.
I have been frustrated three times in the past three years by my former (all female) school.
Every year they hold a careers options evening for the students.
They never focus on my industry sector, which is hugely male dominated.
Every September for the last three years, I have telephoned and spoken to the Career Guidance teacher and expressed an interest in working with Women's groups in my field in having a slot at that evening.
I've also gone in twice to talk to the relevant teacher.
Every year nothing comes of it at all, despite follow up calls and emails.
The relevant teacher/s have all been female, it sometimes seems to me that the worst opponents to feminism/equality can be some women
Sorry for the missive, I hope I've contributed somewhat, I've been offline a few days.0 -
and hopefully keep on topic.Came across the following blog entry which sums up perfectly my feelings on women under 60 (or thereabouts) who enjoy the fruits of what the feminist movement helped achieve, yet like to proclaim themselves "anti feminist". Ann Coulter - great example: the ball-busting, unmarried, childless career woman who believes women's place is in the home serving their husbands and raising children.
http://community.feministing.com/2008/07/anti-feminist-women.html
I mean, it's one thing to have no time for man-haters, to be of the view that men have it bad in a lot of ways because of their gender (while also acknowledging that women have it bad in a lot of ways because of their gender), to revel in girlyness, to fancy the strong alpha-male type (yes please
)... but I don't see how being anti-feminist is a necessary accompaniment to the above. To me, feminism was originally about deconstructing the notion that women are limited to living life a certain way because of their gender - no more.
Or being conservative = anti-feminist. Why do some people who embrace conservatism have to support EVERY conservative ideology in order to avoid being seen as inconsistent? Why not leave a little room for flexibility?
Margaret Thatcher - another example. Hated feminists. Was totally the type who'd assume a feminist meant unattractive, butch etc - seemingly oblivious to the irony of the fact that you don't get to become female prime minister of Great Britain without what the feminist movement achieved.
Just thought I'd share...0 -
I think you may have misinterpreted my post, my point was that if the current structure of six months paid leave (paid meaning at the min. Social Fund Maternity leave) were changed so that it was six months parental leave, then this would afford the opportunity for a couple with a new baby to choose e.g. for Mum to take four months paid leave and Dad to take two, or any combination of the two.
This would imo both make the system more gender neutral, and also in some cases, actually lower the burden on the tax system and on employers.
An example I can give is of a female contractor who is classed as a self employed director earning €100k per year.
If she takes six months maternity leave, she is unpaid as she is not entitled to maternity benefit, therefore she pays no tax in those six months.
If however her partner (and lets assume he's a normal PAYE worker for the sake of argument ) can take four of those six months as leave, then the woman in the relationship can go back to work, earn her living, pay her taxes, whilst her partner claims the leave and the State more than likely benefits in net tax receipts.
It's not as outlandish as it may at first seem, and it gives far more equality to the whole equation. I read an article recently that the majority of entrepreneurs in Ireland are women (I'll root it out if anyone wants proof), most of these would be classed as self employed and maternity leave for them means no income.
Making leave following the birth of a child gender neutral imo would pay huge dividends
No problem with that. Women who want to get to back to work quickly get strange looks and comments, the French female Minister and Sara Palin spring to mind. Don't see the problem in fathers taking some of the leave.
As a Dad, I've done this, but no leave and the child was 2/3 and I worked too! LOL Would have been the main carer then and it's a fantastic experience.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 49073
Also nouggatti, if a Mother takes 2/3 years by the age of 35 to have children, should she be treated equally to a man in the exact same job for promotion, everything being equal, barring pregnancy obviously! ?
Far too many variables there K-9 tbh to answer your question
Given my five jobs since 2005 scenario, and the fact that prior to that I took a career break for four months as I'd been made redundant, I could look like a flakey candidate to some companies
Or I could have taken a four month career break to have babies
BUT, I'm in a specialist field and with specialist qualifications, and even in the current climate get calls every month asking if I am in the market.
So I'd have to say that unless you are talking about a man and a woman in the exact same job, with the exact same experience during that time, applying for another, my answer would be no.
Now if you are talking about two people, one male, one female, in the exact same job, at the exact same grade, in the same company, going for the same promotion, and the woman has taken 2/3 years maternity leave, I'd have to ask why she is so good that 2/3 years leave has caused her to be at that level, or alternatively what the bloke has not done that he's stayed at that level with someone who has 2/3 less years experience 0 -
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Far too many variables there K-9 tbh to answer your question
Ah, but that is why I was specific.
Everything else being equal, work rate, diligence etc. etc., you know the equality thing!
only difference being the woman had say, 3 children and 2 years less experience!
A direct answer?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 49073
Ah, but that is why I was specific.
Everything else being equal, work rate, diligence etc. etc., you know the equality thing!
only difference being the woman had say, 3 children and 2 years less experience!
A direct answer?
Two years less experience in the same job?
That would come down to selling basically, i.e. sell me your ability to do the new job in the interview, and I'll take it on board. The woman would have as much advantage as the man, as I tend to use situational questions in interviews about time management, people management, communication skills etc, and sometimes that can be to the advantage of someone who is a primary carer in a relationship with children.
Both would be moving into a new field with a promotion so both have to prove their skills.
Children don't come into it, it's illegal to ask about children in an interview (unless the interviewee brings it up), I'd usually never even know the parental status of my interviewees
And yes my answer is vague, as I can't be definite with your question. 0 -
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Franky to me Palin was the female equivalent of Dubya, a mouthpiece for the party with some links to the common man.
Give me a woman who can articulate her opinions, back them up, and display the knowledge to do the job, and she'd wipe the floor with Palin any day.
YEP, posted the same during the election on here, but is she anti feminist?
Getting back On Topic! Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 49073
YEP, posted the same during the election on here, but is she anti feminist?
Getting back On Topic!
Who know's Palin's personal opinion?
In equality terms, was it good to see a woman in the position she was in? YES.
Was is good to see a woman like her in the position she was in, without the world knowledge/articulation/ability to back up her opinons? No.
Overall, did she raise the profile of women's ability to do such a job? No imo, she came across as the Republican's puppet version of a Stepford wife, whilst not being disrespectful to her achievements as a Governor.
There are far more women in the political sphere I would admire rather than Palin tbh.0 -
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