will we ever see a 32 county republic

jimmmy

T runner wrote: »

If you consider People from the republic of Ireland to be foreigners then you consider catholics in NI to be foreigners. We are all the same. You may not like it but its a fact.

If people live in a different jurisdiction, if they were born and pay their taxes / get their welfare from / are governed by another jurisdiction, then its not unfair to say they are foreign. A bit the same as a French speaker in Belgium, who pays his tax to the Belgium government ( or gets his benefits from ), is a foreigner compared to people in France , for example. I remember a Catholic from N. Ireland ( who had a UK passport ) looking at my Irish passport with interest once, and joking about it being a "Pas" ( that was what was written on it ! ). He was not from the same jurisdiction as someone from Kerry, who obeyed different laws , paid their taxes to a different government etc, used different currency . He was a friend ; real " foreigners " were maybe those from thousands of miles away. Do not forget those who live 100 miles on each side of the US/ Canadian border are both "Americans" ( being from the continent of America) , but they are both not from the same country. Do not forget some from Hawaii is also American, even though they may live / work thousands of miles away from the American continent.

LordSutch

T runner wrote: »

By the way I do regard Britain as foreign. NI is not in Britain and no amount of sef-delusion on the Unonist part will achieve that feat. If you consider People from the republic of Ireland to be foreigners then you consider catholics in NI to be foreigners. We are all the same. You may not like it but its a fact.

This use of the word 'Foreign' is an interesting one, I have spent much of my life living & working between the two islands, and I must say, that I could never call Britain a 'Foreign' country, and Britons certainly don't see Ireland as 'Foreign' either. Parts of Britain may 'seem' to be foreign (bradford comes to mind) but Britain & Ireland are so so close geographically & culturally that its really rediculous to think of the two islands as being 'Foreign' to each other.

To me, (in my opinion) Northen Ireland seems to be much closer culturally to Scotland & the English Borders than it is to South Dublin, but I would never say that it was a 'Foreign Country' > the word 'Regional' would be more my description.

jimmmy

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I was taught the same thing to be honest and we weren't working class.

It was pretty much my father who pulled me aside and said 'listen x,y,z, get a clue, don't believe the propaganda'
That was the early 90s tho, and late 80s
Its fair to say tho, some teachers were less bigoted, others were more bigoted.

As I progressed through the education system, the bigotry was nearly completely eliminated, even among the Irish teachers which is saying something.
After the GFA, it all dissapeared, nobody said a bad word.

I agree with you there Dannyboy. Everyones experience is different, but many Irish + history teachers were bigoted. Of course not all were. Unfortunately all it took was a few people from each class ( of those who had extremist teachers ) to be really indoctrinated and cause the trouble + suffering. I remember even one English language teacher who had great sympathy for "the lads" ( the IRA ). I do not think it is as bad nowadays, this last 10 or 15 years or so. I was lucky, I was taught there was good + bad people of all nationalities + religions, everywhere.

jimmmy

Camelot wrote: »

This use of the word 'Foreign' is an interesting one, I have spent much of my life living & working between the two islands, and I must say, that I could never call Britain a 'Foreign' country, and Britons certainly don't see Ireland as 'Foreign' either. Parts of Britain may 'seem' to be foreign (bradford comes to mind) but Britain & Ireland are so so close geographically & culturally that its really rediculous to think of the two islands as being 'Foreign' to each other.

I agree with you there. We ( the 2 islands ) share so much in common, a common history, watch the same tv, read the same papers, follow the same soccer teams, I (as a southener ) never felt really foreign in England or Britain either.

junder

T runner wrote: »

Has a catholic as much chance of getting a job with NE as a protestant so?



You stated that people in the south are Irish and foreigner and you had absolutely nothing in common with them. You claimed you had lots in common with catholics in the North who were "more" Irish than the Irish in the south.
Your position is illogical. You either have something in common with Irish people or you have not something in common with Irish people.

By the way I do regard Britain as foreign. NI is not in Britain and no amount of sef-delusion on the Unonist part will achieve that feat.



If you consider People from the republic of Ireland to be foreigners then you consider catholics in NI to be foreigners. We are all the same. You may not like it but its a fact.






So a catholic sees his country as Ireland and you say you feel they are fellow country people? That means that Ireland is not foreign to you. Your position is becoming increasingly ridiculous.



You have already stated in another post that sectarianism is endemic in both communities, so according to yourself you do raise your children to hate catholics. I think myself that catholics are raised more to resent the Brits, than protestants.

Without lying (sorry but you accused me of lying in another thread), Were you told growing up that catholics or southerners were in any way inferior/(dirtier?)/stupider than protestants? Is there many "Taig" jokes in working class protestant areas? What was the reason given that you should not be ruled by Roman catholics while you were growing up?

have you ever seen somebody being shot, have you seen bombs go of, have you ever be caught up in a full scale riot, have you ever experinced the troubles are you even old enough to have experinced the troubles if not then no we do not have anything in common. As for taig jokes yer there are taig jokes, about as many as 'hun' and 'snout' jokes.

K-9

T runner wrote: »

Your position is illogical. You either have something in common with Irish people or you have not something in common with Irish people.

His position is perfectly logical to me.

T runner wrote:

By the way I do regard Britain as foreign. NI is not in Britain and no amount of sef-delusion on the Unonist part will achieve that feat.

Except it is part of GB. We can argue semantics over the name but it is British. Otherwise we wouldn't have to have unification!

T runner wrote:

If you consider People from the republic of Ireland to be foreigners then you consider catholics in NI to be foreigners. We are all the same. You may not like it but its a fact.

That is illogical, not all Catholics are the same. Religion shouldn't come into political boundaries.

T runner wrote:

Catholics North and (Catholics and Protestants) South interact on a meaningful level more with each other than with Northern Protestants. We may have a border we dont want seperating us but there are no man-made walls there to keep the peace as separates catholic and protestant areas in the North.

Times are changing T runner. Groups like the RIRA may want to keep the walls as it gives them some little power and in their own minds, legitimacy, but in time the walls will disappear.

T runner wrote:

So a catholic sees his country as Ireland and you say you feel they are fellow country people? That means that Ireland is not foreign to you. Your position is becoming increasingly ridiculous.

Many people are perfectly happy to see themselves as Irish and Northern Irish, even many Catholics are happy with that.

T runner wrote:

You have already stated in another post that sectarianism is endemic in both communities, so according to yourself you do raise your children to hate catholics. I think myself that catholics are raised more to resent the Brits, than protestants.

Many do resent the Brits, many also use it as a veil to cover up sectarianism.

Can'tseeme wrote: »

A few things I've noticed with thread over the last few pages.

There's a need for unionism to accept what went on in the north. It was an orange state, catholics were 2nd class citizens, the RUC was a police force for the protestant people. My own family were victims of the state, in regards to inequality. It happened, it's important to accept that and to make sure those type of mistakes won't happen again. Theres' also a responsiblity to look into their communities and see is there more that could be done to bring an end to sectarianism, triumphanism. Things like the 11th night bonfire. Are they really a good thing in this day and age?

Now, that was not an attack on Unionism. Just a way of maybe improving cultural elements within it. Taking away the ugly side of it, try and adjust it with other cultures, etc.

Feile an phobail has been a huge sucess in west belfast. Bringing in people from across the divide and the globe, dealing with conflict resolution, concerts, debates, music, plays, sports events etc. Instead of the republican bonfires that used to be lit.

That would also take Republicans who are willing to get involved.

Dannyboy83

Can'tseeme wrote: »

A few things I've noticed with thread over the last few pages.

There's a need for unionism to accept what went on in the north. It was an orange state, catholics were 2nd class citizens, the RUC was a police force for the protestant people. My own family were victims of the state, in regards to inequality. It happened, it's important to accept that and to make sure those type of mistakes won't happen again. Theres' also a responsiblity to look into their communities and see is there more that could be done to bring an end to sectarianism, triumphanism. Things like the 11th night bonfire. Are they really a good thing in this day and age?

Now, that was not an attack on Unionism. Just a way of maybe improving cultural elements within it. Taking away the ugly side of it, try and adjust it with other cultures, etc.

Feile an phobail has been a huge sucess in west belfast. Bringing in people from across the divide and the globe, dealing with conflict resolution, concerts, debates, music, plays, sports events etc. Instead of the republican bonfires that used to be lit.

I would see that as exactly the type of attitude that people need to adopt and I think its commendable.
Both sides admitting the truth and moving onward.

Wheter NI merges with ROI to become a new Ireland state; or stays within the UK, both sides will be in it together.
I'm pretty sure that is what has been happening anyway based on what friends have said.
No direct experience here so I don't know unfortunately.

Dannyboy83

jimmmy wrote: »

I agree with you there. We ( the 2 islands ) share so much in common, a common history, watch the same tv, read the same papers, follow the same soccer teams, I (as a southener ) never felt really foreign in England or Britain either.

Camelot wrote: »

This use of the word 'Foreign' is an interesting one, I have spent much of my life living & working between the two islands, and I must say, that I could never call Britain a 'Foreign' country, and Britons certainly don't see Ireland as 'Foreign' either. Parts of Britain may 'seem' to be foreign (bradford comes to mind) but Britain & Ireland are so so close geographically & culturally that its really rediculous to think of the two islands as being 'Foreign' to each other.

To me, (in my opinion) Northen Ireland seems to be much closer culturally to Scotland & the English Borders than it is to South Dublin, but I would never say that it was a 'Foreign Country' > the word 'Regional' would be more my description.

Nail. Head. Hammer.

I've often had English friends talk about Ireland as if we are the same people, despite sharing 2 different countries.
Our histories may inextricably linked, but so is our future.

I feel proud of that to be honest. I guess it depends how you were raised.

(obviously I'm not going to be proud to be associated with the little scumbags running around Amsterdam with their union jack tattoos and their bulldogs, but neither are the English people themselves nor the Dutch. The English people call them 'chavs' for a reason)

junder

Camelot wrote: »

This use of the word 'Foreign' is an interesting one, I have spent much of my life living & working between the two islands, and I must say, that I could never call Britain a 'Foreign' country, and Britons certainly don't see Ireland as 'Foreign' either. Parts of Britain may 'seem' to be foreign (bradford comes to mind) but Britain & Ireland are so so close geographically & culturally that its really rediculous to think of the two islands as being 'Foreign' to each other.

To me, (in my opinion) Northen Ireland seems to be much closer culturally to Scotland & the English Borders than it is to South Dublin, but I would never say that it was a 'Foreign Country' > the word 'Regional' would be more my description.

when i use the term forgine i am using it in the context jimmy refered to, the RoI is different nation to me with a different government system of which i feel no loyalty to or apart of, i do not mean it in a negative context, as i have already said while i regard the RoI as a forgein nation i do not hate it or have any problem with it and have enjoyed visting it, a few years ago me and a mate of mine (a catholic mate i might add t-runner) toured donegal on a couple of vespa scooters, good times. However i still felt i was in a different country. To put things into context i regard germany as a forgien country and yet i lived in germany for 4 years as a child and have very fond memorys of the country

T runner

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Thats not garbage at all mate.
I was taught the same thing to be honest and we weren't working class.

It was pretty much my father who pulled me aside and said 'listen x,y,z, get a clue, don't believe the propaganda'
That was the early 90s tho, and late 80s
Its fair to say tho, some teachers were less bigoted, others were more bigoted.

As I progressed through the education system, the bigotry was nearly completely eliminated, even among the Irish teachers which is saying something.
After the GFA, it all dissapeared, nobody said a bad word.

If you were taught with the prescribed history books then they would have been pro-British not anti-British.

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

junder,

are protestant & catholic young people in the North religious?

if someone among my friends was religious growing up, everyone would have known about it, it would have been the strangest thing ever.

The first time I went to Poland, i was gobsmacked that people took religion so seriously

relgiou about football maybe but no not relgious in the biblical sence

Dannyboy83

T runner wrote: »

If you were taught with the prescribed history books then they would have been pro-British not anti-British.

Are you going to dictate to me what education I had now?:rolleyes:

How about the parts where we were taught about the Penal laws?
How about 12/13th century Ireland where the Irish were depicted as savages by the British (Geoffrey Chaucer i think? can't even remember)?

We were taught all of that too.

Half of our education was off the books, I'm sure you know that.
It happened in the North too, nobody is innocent, but who really cares at this stage?
Its ancient history now and people are trying to get on with it.

If you want to feel bitter about what happened, you should find somewhere quiet to reflect and let it pass.
No amount of rage is going to change the past.
Best to move onward.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

A few things I've noticed with thread over the last few pages.

There's a need for unionism to accept what went on in the north. It was an orange state, catholics were 2nd class citizens, the RUC was a police force for the protestant people. My own family were victims of the state, in regards to inequality. It happened, it's important to accept that and to make sure those type of mistakes won't happen again. Theres' also a responsiblity to look into their communities and see is there more that could be done to bring an end to sectarianism, triumphanism. Things like the 11th night bonfire. Are they really a good thing in this day and age?

Now, that was not an attack on Unionism. Just a way of maybe improving cultural elements within it. Taking away the ugly side of it, try and adjust it with other cultures, etc.

Feile an phobail has been a huge sucess in west belfast. Bringing in people from across the divide and the globe, dealing with conflict resolution, concerts, debates, music, plays, sports events etc. Instead of the republican bonfires that used to be lit.

And what about the atrocitys caused by the PIRA you can't have ago at one community and not the other. What i think we in northern ireland need to learn be it protestant or catholics is tolerance of each other and our cultures, there are many loyalist communitys that are now recaliming bonefires from the paramiltarys and making them more family affairs, for example in woodvale park last year rather then a huge bonfire there was a beacon that was lit instead, things are changing. As for the Feile i would not go to it as i would not feel safe, who knows maybe in a few years that may change

T runner

jimmmy wrote: »

If people live in a different jurisdiction, if they were born and pay their taxes / get their welfare from / are governed by another jurisdiction, then its not unfair to say they are foreign. A bit the same as a French speaker in Belgium, who pays his tax to the Belgium government ( or gets his benefits from ), is a foreigner compared to people in France , for example. I remember a Catholic from N. Ireland ( who had a UK passport ) looking at my Irish passport with interest once, and joking about it being a "Pas" ( that was what was written on it ! ). He was not from the same jurisdiction as someone from Kerry, who obeyed different laws , paid their taxes to a different government etc, used different currency . He was a friend ; real " foreigners " were maybe those from thousands of miles away. Do not forget those who live 100 miles on each side of the US/ Canadian border are both "Americans" ( being from the continent of America) , but they are both not from the same country. Do not forget some from Hawaii is also American, even though they may live / work thousands of miles away from the American continent.

Nearly all people in the South and all catholics in the North see themselves as
"Irish" i.e from the same nation (and not in the Americam continent sense.)

People need to understand the reasons for the border in the North. It was put there solely to create a state with a protestant majority not because the people there were foreign or British. They are Irish. The problem in the North is a sectarian one not a national one.

Dannyboy83

Are there restriction on inward migration in the North?

Should have just moved 500,000 people North for a few months and done the survey:pac::pac:

jimmmy

T runner wrote: »

If you were taught with the prescribed history books then they would have been pro-British not anti-British.

Nobody could claim all the Priests, nuns and teachers in our schools pro-British ... lol never hear anything about the black prods or "burn everything British but their coal " etc ......I think more than a few people in Ireland were taught a particular angle about the 800 years, the famine, the famine, the penal times and the glorious rebels of 1916 and so on that some things which happened later came as no great surprise.

Dannyboy83

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Are there restriction on inward migration in the North?

Should have just moved 500,000 people North for a few months and done the survey:pac::pac:

How about we just join the UK again on January 1st 2012 with a devolved government, remove the partition with immediate effect on January 31st 2012, then cede the UK as a full unified state on January 1st 2013?;)

T runner

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Nail. Head. Hammer.

I've often had English friends talk about Ireland as if we are the same people, despite sharing 2 different countries.
Our histories may inextricably linked, but so is our future.

I feel proud of that to be honest. I guess it depends how you were raised.

(obviously I'm not going to be proud to be associated with the little scumbags running around Amsterdam with their union jack tattoos and their bulldogs, but neither are the English people themselves nor the Dutch. The English people call them 'chavs' for a reason)

Some English people may not see Ireland as a foreign country but the vast majority of English and Irish have always known the differences.

K-9 wrote: »

His position is perfectly logical to me.

Im not surprised you cant substantiate that.

Except it is part of GB. We can argue semantics over the name but it is British. Otherwise we wouldn't have to have unification!

Northern Ireland is not part of GB. It is part of the UK of NI and GB. (It is the NI part). GB is an island to the East of Ireland. Nothing to do with Semantics.
When I cross the border into Newry am I crossing into Great Britain? I didnt think so.

That is illogical, not all Catholics are the same. Religion shouldn't come into political boundaries.

I didnt say all Catholics are the same I said that the vast majority of Catholics in Ireland regard themselves as Irish which is true is it not?

If Junder says he has absolutely nothing in common with southerners (well the same as Outer Mongolians) then surely he also has very little in common with northern catholics who also regard themselves as Irish.

It is an illogical extreme position and we should not tolerate these stupid dishonest positions anymore.

Times are changing T runner. Groups like the RIRA may want to keep the walls as it gives them some little power and in their own minds, legitimacy, but in time the walls will disappear.

Im afraid it is both communities who are keeping the walls up at the moment. The point is how can junder claim they have so much in common when they dont even talk to each other?

junder wrote: »

when i use the term forgine i am using it in the context jimmy refered to, the RoI is different nation to me with a different government system of which i feel no loyalty to or apart of, i do not mean it in a negative context, as i have already said while i regard the RoI as a forgein nation i do not hate it or have any problem with it and have enjoyed visting it, a few years ago me and a mate of mine (a catholic mate i might add t-runner) toured donegal on a couple of vespa scooters, good times. However i still felt i was in a different country. To put things into context i regard germany as a forgien country and yet i lived in germany for 4 years as a child and have very fond memorys of the country

But Donegal is in Ulster, the same Province as Antrim! Are you seriously saying you have as much in common with people from Germany as people from Donegal or the ROI.

Heres a few things you may have in common:
40% of NI population regards themselves as completely Irish.
40% of NI population share the same culture as the rest of Ireland.
Both states share the same Island and are the partitioned states of Ireland.

If you (and the Unionist people?) insist that we are completely foreign then Im sorry but your position is extremist and dishonest.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Are you going to dictate to me what education I had now?:rolleyes:

I dont dictate to you what education you had, the history syllabus in primary and secondary school does. Th books on this sylabus are generally pro British, thats a fact.

How about the parts where we were taught about the Penal laws?

I dont think its fair to cherry pick what parts of history are taught to suit people of a certain political persuasion. You are complaining that the history you were taught was biased yet you seem to be suggesting that an important event in Irish history like the penal laws should be removed from the sylabus?

How about 12/13th century Ireland where the Irish were depicted as savages by the British (Geoffrey Chaucer i think? can't even remember)?

Never heard of that one myself.

It happened in the North too, nobody is innocent, but who really cares at this stage?

Now I know youre bluffing a little bit. You see Irish history is NOT TAUGHT in NI schools. Only British history. Therefore ALL knowledge of Irish (and NI history) comes from word of mouth. Not a good situation is it. But its logical isnt it? After all Northern Ireland is in Great Britain as you claim. This may show people why the difference between GB and UK is NOT semantics.

If you want to feel bitter about what happened, you should find somewhere quiet to reflect and let it pass.
No amount of rage is going to change the past.
Best to move onward.

I dont feel bitter. In fact I acknowledge that the Irish (both catholics and protestants) tendency to carry their histories around with them has contributed to the longevity of this dispute. However people need to be honest, and Unionists adopting the position of Irish people as being completely foreign to them is blatantly untrue and will eventually marginalise them in Ireland.

T runner

junder wrote: »

have you ever seen somebody being shot, have you seen bombs go of, have you ever be caught up in a full scale riot, have you ever experinced the troubles are you even old enough to have experinced the troubles if not then no we do not have anything in common. As for taig jokes yer there are taig jokes, about as many as 'hun' and 'snout' jokes.

But the Catholics in NI have experienced all these and I have plenty in common with them.

Does this mean you regard British people (Scots, English, Welsh) as foreign also as they have equally little experience of these things?

I think we both know there are a lot more Taig jokes than those others. Lets try and be honest here.
And do the Taig jokes portray them as stupid/dirty/inferior?

Ive been in west Belfast a few times and I have Never heard a sectarian joke against protestants. Most Catholics just arent like that, their problem is with British rule.

Sectarianism is far more imbedded in the protestant Psyche in NI.

My age is none of your business.

Exile 1798

You're doing a fine job speaking truth to Unionism there T.

My father was from Tyrone and my mother Dublin. According to junder's "logic" I'm of mixed race.

Poor fellow, yet another insecure Irish Unionist. "Oh eye the South is a Foreign country to me, no really it is. Might as well be China! Does my accent sound Scottish to you?"

jimmmy

T runner wrote: »

you seem to be suggesting that an important event in Irish history like the penal laws should be removed from the sylabus?

Ask the Priests, Nuns,and teachers who taught so many Irish people about the 800 years of oppression, the dastardly British, the black Prods, the penal times, the famine, the heroes of 1916 etc

A few pages ago T-runner you wrote " Protestants are told from an early age that Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc. and under no circumstances are we to be ruled in a united Ireland. " lol lol.

LordSutch

T runner wrote: »

People need to understand the reasons for the border in the North. It was put there solely to create a state with a protestant majority not because the people there were foreign or British. They are Irish. The problem in the North is a sectarian one not a national one.

Hmm, looking at it through 'my prism' it was the South who broke away from the UK leaving the North behind, thus the border had to be erected to distinguish between the (still British) residents of the North, and the newly invented 'Ultra Irish' breed being bred by De'velera in the Republic.

Another point of view
In my GPs surgery in Dalkey there are a dozen or more pictures of Queen Victoria's last visit to Ireland in 1900, and there for all to see are thousands of Union Jacks flying from shop windows in Cork, Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire), Dublin, Blackrock, and all over the South, with tens of thousands of people cheering > but then virtually overnight (1916-1922) the South decided that it was not British anymore! the collective Nationalist memory was subtly adjusted, and we became a new race, a new Irish breed, De Valera's children, fervently IRISH, Gaelic speaking, Mono cultural, (very Anti-British), isolationary, totally independent a new Irish identity was being manufactured, and we wanted to pull the North along with us ~ but the North stayed firm & remained faithful to the rest of the UK.

The Republic was created, it walked out of the Union, hence the creation of the artificial border!

K-9

T runner, Junder has a different view on things to you. What appears logical to him, may not appear logical to you! There is no substantiating to it! He feels he has more in common with his fellow NI citizens rather than ROI cotizens. Perfectly logical.

Is it that hard to understand?

As for the whole GB, UK thing, I'm not getting into Semantics. It's British, full stop, different currency, different Govt. etc.! No amount of arguing will change that.

PS. You did say all Catholics. I pointed it out to you and now you are back tracking. You could have just said you were generalising.

Similar to some sections of the Communities do not talk to each other, but the vast majority do. NI has moved on from the 70's.

junder

Exile 1798 wrote: »

You're doing a fine job speaking truth to Unionism there T.

My father was from Tyrone and my mother Dublin. According to junder's "logic" I'm of mixed race.

Poor fellow, yet another insecure Irish Unionist. "Oh eye the South is a Foreign country to me, no really it is. Might as well be China! Does my accent sound Scottish to you?"

so far your the only one who has mentioned race.

Exile 1798

Camelot wrote: »

Hmm, looking at it through 'my prism' it was the South who broke away from the UK leaving the North behind, thus the border had to be erected to distinguish between the (still British) residents of the North, and the newly invented 'Ultra Irish' breed being bred by De'velera in the Republic.

Another point of view
In my GPs surgery in Dalkey there are a dozen or more pictures of Queen Victoria's last visit to Ireland in 1900, and there for all to see are thousands of Union Jacks flying from shop windows in Cork, Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire), Dublin, Blackrock, and all over the South, with tens of thousands of people cheering > but then virtually overnight (1916-1922) the South decided that it was not British anymore! the collective Nationalist memory was subtly adjusted, and we became a new race, a new Irish breed, De Valera's children, fervently IRISH, Gaelic speaking, Mono cultural, (very Anti-British), isolationary, totally independent a new Irish identity was being manufactured, and we wanted to pull the North along with us ~ but the North stayed firm & remained faithful to the rest of the UK > it was the South that left, hence the artificial creation of the border!

Actually, that is remembered.

Which is why the men of 1916 are so revered. They restored Irish Nationhood.

Pearse spelt all this out and what you say about the direction of the country in his speeches and writings..

“The Defenders of this Realm have worked well in secret and in the open. They think that they have pacified Ireland. They think that they have purchased half of us and intimidated the other half.”

“Life springs from death; and from the graves of patriot men and women spring living nations.”

You’re probably right Camelot, but for 1916 Ireland would be British. I bet that annoys you no end. Myself I love it.

LordSutch

No, it doesnt annoy me Exile, its history & thats that, and its the path DeVelera chose for Ireland, and he suceeded ..........

Needless to say, things could have been very different.

Exile 1798

Indeed they could. We could be like Cornwall.

jimmmy

Exile 1798 wrote: »

but for 1916 Ireland would be British. .

Nobody mentioned that. Do not forget far more Irish people volunteered and fought in British uniforms than were ever in 1916. When the men of 1916 surrendered they were spat upon and jeered by the people of Dublin. Of course, after that, as another poster wrote "we became a new race, a new Irish breed, De Valera's children, fervently IRISH, Gaelic speaking, Mono cultural, (very Anti-British), isolationary, totally independent"

jimmmy

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Indeed they could. We could be like Cornwall.

More like any other group of islands in the world. Eg New Zealand. Japan. Island groups naturally stick together. It makes more economic and political sense.

Exile 1798

jimmmy wrote: »

Nobody mentioned that. Do not forget far more Irish people volunteered and fought in British uniforms than were ever in 1916. When the men of 1916 surrendered they were spat upon and jeered by the people of Dublin.

Again I know this and acknowledge that. In fact the main Nationalist newspaper in Dublin called for them to be executed.

It's the very reason I so admire the Irish Republican Brotherhood, The Irish Volunteers, The Irish Citiezen Army, Pearse, Conolloy, MacDermott, Ceannt, Plunkett and McBride.

They restored the Irish Nation. I know you despise them for it, but you should understand by now that the very reason you hate them is the same reason that we love them.