will we ever see a 32 county republic

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

And what about the atrocitys caused by the PIRA you can't have ago at one community and not the other. What i think we in northern ireland need to learn be it protestant or catholics is tolerance of each other and our cultures, there are many loyalist communitys that are now recaliming bonefires from the paramiltarys and making them more family affairs, for example in woodvale park last year rather then a huge bonfire there was a beacon that was lit instead, things are changing. As for the Feile i would not go to it as i would not feel safe, who knows maybe in a few years that may change

Well, we know the PIRA did some terrible things. There were terrible things done on all sides. Republicans would admit that themselves. But do you feel there is a lack of acceptance of what the unionist state did on nationalist people in the north, going back to when the state was formed?

I'm all for tolerance of cultures and I'd applaud any steps from the unionist community to improve things. Do you feel there's a lot more that could be done?

Junder, I'd honestly recommend you to give feile an phobail a chance. Even pick up a brochure for this year, see what's on. I've a few mates from a protestant background have come up with me to see a few things. There would never be a problem. There's been unionist politicians have joined debates. An Orangman did a talk last year about the order, what it means, how it can improve. Some decent gigs aswell

Can'tseeme

Just to confirm. I went to a catholic school, we partly covered irish history at GCSE and A level. I learnt most of my Irish history myself. Irish history is not taught in Protestant schools. They are taught about British kings and queens. I'm sure junder would back me up on that one.

K-9

T runner wrote: »

Unionists are not taught Irish (inc. Ulster) history. Where do they learn about it? Do you think what they are told about catholics/southerners is positive or negative, judging by what you have witnessed re. attitudes in NI?

I've met a few Northern Unionists who would have a reasonable understanding of Irish history, haven't met many Southern Republicans who would have a great understanding of the history of Ulster and Unionism.

T runner wrote:

Dont misrepresent him. He said he has as much in common with someone from Outer Mongolia as someone from Rep of Ireland (He gave Donegal as an example).
Given that Donegal is in the same Province as Antrim where he is from, given that 40% of the population of NI are Irish, given that 40% of NI have the same culture as ROI, given that the are both on the same small Island, given that they both are partitioned parts of Ireland, given that there are several all Ireland official, national as well as sporting and cultural bodies, then I would say that his position is comnpletely illogical.

Except 60% of the NI population don't look at it that way.

T runner wrote:

The difference between GB and UK is Northern Ireland. That is not semantics.
If you are going to talk about Irish and British politics at least make an effort to understand the basics. Again if you are crossing the border into co Down are you entering Great Britain? Yes or No.

Makes no odds to me what it is called. It isn't the ROI.

T runner wrote:

The fact that Irish or N Irish history is not taught in NI makes the distinction between GB and UK more pertinant. Do you agree?

I must ask a few Protestants I know about that.

T runner wrote:

You said , I said all catholics were the same (in every sense). I said all catholics (and msot protestants in south) were the same in nationality. Stop trying to misrepresent me. Move on.

Thought you clarified you said the vast majority of Catholics.

T runner wrote:

The walls are still there. The relationship hasnt improved much. Infact the upcoming generations are even more vicious towards eachother. This now seems to include more of the young catholics who tarditionally would be more respectful of their neighbours.

It has improved substantially since the 60/70's. Concentrating on the trouble spots doesn't change that. Major improvements have been made.

T runner wrote:

80% of people wanted to break the link with Britain. That was the democratic will of the Irish people. There was evidence of this will in elections long before De Valera came on the scene.
The Irish people lived under British rule and voted this way. But perhaps it suits you to think of the Irish as stupid?

Yet a minority of 40% who consider themselves Irish in NI, means Unionists who consider Irish people as foreigners is illogical? A majority is a majority!

T runner wrote:

Judging by the inbred sectarianism, epitomised by some really horrible jokes about Taigs which are accepted in the Loyalist communities. These type of jokes simply are not acceptable in catholic communities.

Republican communities disguise their sectarianism. See I can generalise too.

gurramok wrote: »

Funny that the status quo does not have 70%+ support right now from the NI people.

It does. What parties do not support the status quo?

T runner

K-9 wrote: »

I've met a few Northern Unionists who would have a reasonable understanding of Irish history, haven't met many Southern Republicans who would have a great understanding of the history of Ulster and Unionism.

You see Ulster history is part of Irish history, did you not know that? We are taught Irish history in the south, they are not taught Irish history in the North. How could their knowledge possibly be better? The average southern Irish person is more knowledgeable on all aspects of Irish history than the average northerner because we are actually thought about Irish history. We arent really taught the really relevant stuff though like who lady McDuck married which eventually meant that the McDucks were now in line for royal lineage etc. Im sure your friends could give us a dissertion on that stuff.
But on Irish (inc. Ulster) history they get their history from the prejudices of their community.

Except 60% of the NI population don't look at it that way.

Yes that may be true 60% of the population of NI may deny that Donegal is in the same Province as Antrim, that 40% of the population of NI are Irish, that 40% of NI have the same culture as ROI, that both ROI and NI are on the same small Island, given that they both are partitioned parts of Ireland, given that there are several all Ireland official, national as well as sporting and cultural bodies, that we have as little in common with NI as OUTER MONGOLIA. Are you still claiming this is a logical position? TELL THE TRUTH

Makes no odds to me what it is called. It isn't the ROI.

Yes it isnt the ROI. If you are so ignorant that you dont even know where NI is then maybe you should go to a thread where you are more knowledgeable. Or dont you think the political entity to which NI belongs is relevant to this thread?

I must ask a few Protestants I know about that.

To save time, Im sure you can work out the ramifications with a bit of thought all by yourself. Someone who would know has already confirmed the truth of this.

It has improved substantially since the 60/70's. Concentrating on the trouble spots doesn't change that. Major improvements have been made.

The disrespect shown between young people of both communities may actually have disimproved since then. Are you just making up these facts to suit your views now?

Yet a minority of 40% who consider themselves Irish in NI, means Unionists who consider Irish people as foreigners is illogical? A majority is a majority!

If they consider Irish people as foreigners then they also consider 40% of people from Northern Ireland as foreigners by your logic. Yes?

No real historian on Irish history considers anyone from Ireland North or South as British by the way.

K-9

Just to quote:

T runner wrote: »

If you consider People from the republic of Ireland to be foreigners then you consider catholics in NI to be foreigners. We are all the same. You may not like it but its a fact.

That isn't fact. Unionists would see Catholics in NI as citizens of there, not the ROI. Many people from the ROI and many Catholics in NI see themselves as different too!

Obviously you are unwilling to recognise that.

T runner wrote:

Catholics North and (Catholics and Protestants) South interact on a meaningful level more with each other than with Northern Protestants.

A ridiculous statement.

T runner wrote:

So a catholic sees his country as Ireland and you say you feel they are fellow country people? That means that Ireland is not foreign to you. Your position is becoming increasingly ridiculous.

NI isn't foreign to him, ROI is. Jaysus, this isn't a recent phenomenon.

K-9

T runner wrote: »

You see Ulster history is part of Irish history, did you not know that? We are taught Irish history in the south, they are not taught Irish history in the North.

Pro British Irish history as you say yourself.

T runner wrote:

How could their knowledge possibly be better?

Is it not conceivable that some Unionists may have a better understanding of Irish history than some Republicans?

T runner wrote:

The average southern Irish person is more knowledgeable on all aspects of Irish history than the average northerner because we are actually thought about Irish history.

It's a pro British version as you say yourself. They aren't taught the real reasons for the divide and conflict.

T runner wrote:

We arent really taught the really relevant stuff though like who lady McDuck married which eventually meant that the McDucks were now in line for royal lineage etc. Im sure your friends could give us a dissertion on that stuff.
But on Irish (inc. Ulster) history they get their history from the prejudices of their community.

LOL, LOL. We get our history from our prejudices. It's subjective and revisionist as you said yourself.

T runner wrote:

Yes that may be true 60% of the population of NI may deny that Donegal is in the same Province as Antrim,

Nope, many are perfectly aware of the 9 counties.

T runner wrote:

that 40% of the population of NI are Irish,

Think by now they are perfectly aware of that by now. Same as most of us are perfectly aware 60% are British!

T runner wrote:

that 40% of NI have the same culture as ROI,

Probably, though NI Catholics are in general, different.

T runner wrote:

that both ROI and NI are on the same small Island,

Geography probably covers that.

T runner wrote:

given that they both are partitioned parts of Ireland, given that there are several all Ireland official, national as well as sporting and cultural bodies,

Completely logical when 60% of a population see it that way.

T runner wrote:

that we have as little in common with NI as OUTER MONGOLIA. Are you still claiming this is a logical position? TELL THE TRUTH

He never stated that we have as little as common with NI as MONGOLIA!

T runner wrote:

Yes it isnt the ROI. If you are so ignorant that you dont even know where NI is then maybe you should go to a thread where you are more knowledgeable. Or dont you think the political entity to which NI belongs is relevant to this thread?

LOL LOL. Living about 10 miles from the border I think I know. Maybe it is because I live in a mixed town I don't see Unionists as illogical. I don't go around saying your Irish, fact.

T runner wrote:

To save time, Im sure you can work out the ramifications with a bit of thought all by yourself. Someone who would know has already confirmed the truth of this.

Many take time to learn for themselves, not Govt. curriculums or Unionist or indeed Republican propaganda.

T runner wrote:

The disrespect shown between young people of both communities may actually have disimproved since then. Are you just making up these facts to suit your views now?

You are focusing on the negatives that the media and certain Republicans focus on and are ignoring normal, everyday life for the vast majority of people in NI. The key is getting people out of these enclaves through education. There are excellent cross community relationships going on every day, Employment, sport, Schools and Universities, community groups, police boards etc. How we get people out of the hatred and sectarian communities on both sides is complicated. Education and money is the key and of course, peace and power sharing.

T runner wrote:

If they consider Irish people as foreigners then they also consider 40% of people from Northern Ireland as foreigners by your logic. Yes?

LOL, NI and logic? Unionist see themselves as British and N. Irish, hell, some even see themselves as Irish. They would see the 40% as N. Irish, which BTW, a large section of Catholics see themselves as.

Which goes back to my point, made earlier that has been ignored, 20/30% Catholics do not see an United Ireland as a priority and are likely to want the staus quo over an United Ireland. Just because they vote SDLP does not mean it's a priority same as many SF voters would not necessarily agree with many SF economic policies.

T runner wrote:

No real historian on Irish history considers anyone from Ireland North or South as British by the way.

LOL, that's the propaganda showing through.

Can'tseeme

There's been alot said about the people of the north about nationality. Speaking as a northerner, Imho, the majority of people in the north, if you take away the religious aspect, class themselves as Irish or N irish and the trend is that more and more feel comfortable with that. There is a large amount of unionists still have difficulty with this identity and prefer British. But even Ian Paisley is happy to be called an Irishman:

"I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman."

K-9

Can'tseeme wrote: »

There's been alot said about the people of the north about nationality. Speaking as a northerner, Imho, the majority of people in the north, if you take away the religious aspect, class themselves as Irish or N irish and the trend is that more and more feel comfortable with that. There is a large amount of unionists still have difficulty with this identity and prefer British. But even Ian Paisley is happy to be called an Irishman:

"I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman."

Well summed up, this article explains it perfectly, from the dreaded Telegraph!

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/johann-hari-northern-ireland-peace-depends-on-ending-the-educational-divide-14225931.html

Integrated schools are growing in numbers, but it's a slow process.

T runner

K-9 wrote: »

Is it not conceivable that some Unionists may have a better understanding of Irish history than some Republicans?

You dont have any understanding of Irish history so your not in a position to comment. You thought Irish history and Ulster history were different things.
You think NI is in GB.

Irish History is taught in the republic not in the North. Irish history is not taught to Unionists. Give it up.

It's a pro British version as you say yourself. They aren't taught the real reasons for the divide and conflict.

History is always written by the victors of the previous war. I said it was relatively pro-British compared with the version we would have got if the Republicans had won the civil war. All history is relative, I guess.

History from an historian is generally better than history from a community involved in a sectarian war though wouldnt you agree?

LOL, LOL. We get our history from our prejudices. It's subjective and revisionist as you said yourself.

No read the post. The Unionists get their history from their prejudices as they are not taught Irish history in school.

Think by now they are perfectly aware of that by now. Same as most of us are perfectly aware 60% are British!

Speak for yourself! Every emminent historian on Irish history disagrees.

Probably, though NI Catholics are in general, different.

All of the NI catholics who posted on this thread disagreed with that.

Nope, many are perfectly aware of the 9 counties.

Ofcouse they are aware of it, but the poster claimed he had nothing in common with people from Donegal. Well as much as Germany in that particular example. How can you be from the same prvince as someone and yet have absolutely nothing in common with them doesnt seem logical to me!

Completely logical when 60% of a population see it that way.

Do you understand what the word logic means? If 60% of a population thinks that 1 + 1 = 3 does that make it logical?

He never stated that we have as little as common with NI as MONGOLIA!

Yes he did. Stop bull****ting

LOL LOL. Living about 10 miles from the border I think I know. Maybe it is because I live in a mixed town I don't see Unionists as illogical. I don't go around saying your Irish, fact.

If you know then why did you say that NI was in Great Britain? Bull**** again. BTW Would you mind not using LOL to try and strenghten your arguments? It makes you look silly.

Many take time to learn for themselves, not Govt. curriculums or Unionist or indeed Republican propaganda.

BULL

You are focusing on the negatives that the media and certain Republicans focus on and are ignoring normal, everyday life for the vast majority of people in NI

You seem to be conveniently ignorant of the many negative articles in the Belfast Telegraph not written by republicans.

The key is getting people out of these enclaves

Do you not understand anything about the peculiarities of the situation in NI? The demographies in Ulster have changed little in hundreds of years. If you mention an area or a street to a person they are likely to know which community you hail from. In some small towns you might have to say which end of the street you are from. Any slight change in these demographies can cause sectarian violence of the worst kind as witnessed by the scenes in the Holy Cross national school.

Probably, though NI Catholics are in general, different.

All of the NI catholics who posted on this thread disagreed with that.

How we get people out of the hatred and sectarian communities on both sides is complicated

Best to get sectarianism out of the people dont you think?

Education and money is the key and of course, peace and power sharing.

Education like, teaching everybody their own history on not just the history of Britain?

LOL, that's the propaganda showing through

If you had read through the thread you would see that ATQ Stewart a Unionist and former professor of History in Queens holds this view. Is he peddling republican propaganda?

That isn't fact. Unionists would see Catholics in NI as citizens of there, not the ROI. Many people from the ROI and many Catholics in NI see themselves as different too!

Junder admitted he sees catholics as Irish in fact more Irish than the Irish in the south. Is that the difference you mean?

A ridiculous statement.

Why? If its ridiculous why cant you refute it?

NI isn't foreign to him, ROI is. Jaysus, this isn't a recent phenomenon.

If youre going to but into a conversation do the people involved the justice of reading it first.

junder

so were did you learn that all unionists are taught is to be sectarian bigots, did you learn that at school?
donegal seemed pretty forgein to me when riding through the gaeltacht, don't speak gealic so found it pretty hard to understand the road signs, might as well have been written in german or outer monglian for that matter so :P

K-9

T runner wrote: »

You dont have any understanding of Irish history so your not in a position to comment. You thought Irish history and Ulster history were different things.

Were did I say that? LOL. If you'd listen you'd learn your interpretation of history is not the only and right one.

You remind me of me 15 years ago, basically, a young, nieve, 19 yr old.

T runner wrote:

Irish History is taught in the republic not in the North. Irish history is not taught to Unionists. Give it up.

Yet you see Irish history in ROI schools as pro British? Thank God they aren't taught it.

T runner wrote:

History is always written by the victors of the previous war. I said it was relatively pro-British compared with the version we would have got if the Republicans had won the civil war. All history is relative, I guess.

Agreed.

Remember the reverse applies, the losers version is relative because of defeat.

T runner wrote:

History from an historian is generally better than history from a community involved in a sectarian war though wouldny you agree?

Depends on the historian! I prefer to read up and learn from all. Contrary to what you seem to perceive of me, I have read up on Republican history and I take a keen interest in 68-85 in particular, as I believe things slowly changed from 85 on.It's a fascinating period in history, from both a Nationalist/Unionist/British/Irish view.

T runner wrote:

No read the post. The Unionists get their history from their prejudices as they are not taught Irish history in school. (Looks like you didnt get the last laugh there)

And Republicans get their history from their prejudices. Round and round we go..............:p

T runner wrote:

Think by now they are perfectly aware of that by now.
Speak for yourself! Every emminent historian on Irish history agrees that nobody in NI is from Britain/British.

Obviously, but nobody can deny the attachment.

T runner wrote:

All of the NI catholics who posted on this thread disagreed with that.

You ever been to an Ulster GAA match between one of the inner 6 and the outer 3?

T runner wrote:

Ofcouse they are aware of it, but the poster claimed he had nothing in common with people from Donegal. Well as much as Germany in that particular example.

Think he was exaggerating to make a point.

T runner wrote:

Do you understand what the word logic means? If 60% of a population thinks that 1 + 1 = 3 does that make it logical?

LOL. Perspective is everything, so to is understanding.

T runner wrote:

Yes he did. Stop bull****ting

Ah, but we've straw manned away from what he said. His words have been twisted a few times now. His perception of the ROI has now been twisted to ROI'ers perception of NI. How could he know an ROI'ers perception of a Northern Catholic?

T runner wrote:

If you know then why did you say that NI was in Great Britain? Bull**** again.

LOL, LOL, LOL. Their MP's sit in Westminister, they have been ruled by Westminister for most of the last 25 years, currency is sterling etc. etc. Logic again. It's a British ruled statelet, still is to a large extent. Otherwise why does McGuinness go running to Brown for more Govt. funding?

T runner wrote:

BULL

Source?

T runner wrote:

You seem to be conveniently ignorant of the many negative articles in the Belfast Telegraph not written by republicans.

I don't write of the Indo because Myers writes in it, or the Times because of the Tool.

T runner wrote:

Do you not understand anything about the peculiarities of the situation in NI? The demographies in Ulster have changed little in hundreds of years. If you mention an area or a street to a person they are likely to know which community you hail from. In some small towns you might have to say which end of the street you are from. Any slight change in these demographies can cause sectarian violence of the worst kind as witnessed by the scenes in the Holy Cross national school.

How many times have you been up North?

The demographics have changed and are changing, otherwise you wouldn't think a United Ireland is 10/20 years away. I do the surname thing myself, happens everyday. Strangely, Protestants march in my town on the 12th and Apprentice boys day, never a bother.

T runner wrote:

Best to get sectarianism out of the people dont you think?

Mixed schools FTW.

T runner wrote:

Education maybe like, teaching everybody their own history on not just the history of Britain?

From a Unionist perspective to and update it to include Enniskillen, Omagh etc.

T runner wrote:

Junder admitted he sees catholics as Irish in fact more Irish than the Irish in the south. Is that the difference you mean?

That is opinion. I think they are more Irish in ways, less in others.

T runner wrote:

Why? If its ridiculous why cant you refute it?

I thought when I quoted it you would have seen how ridiculous it was. You yourself have pointed to AI political and sports bodies that show NI Unionists can interact with Catholics etc. They interact with Northern Catholics on a daily basis. Do I have to explain this?

I have to ask, other than West Belfast, what is your experience of NI?

Injustice, we've moved on, the majority have. Bringing up 800 years, Protestant statelet etc. doesn't help, either does Republican atrocities all the time.

We had a Civil War, most of us are over it. Time for NI to move on.

PS. One very pertinent question, how many Unionists do you know, I mean in reality, not from a book or propaganda?

junder

Svalbard wrote: »

No idea. I'm Irish, I know what Irish culture is (to me, at least). On this thread and others unionists have claimed they have their own culture, that they are British and not Irish (or English, Scottish, Welsh, Manx, Cornish or Channel Islander, despite insisting they are British funnily enough).

So they are born in Ireland, their ancestors have lived here for generations, but they are not Irish. Makes no sense.

So instead of answering a question with a question, answer mine, if you can - what is Unionist culture?



At what point did the Irish government support the war?

The IRA was a cross-border organisation I'll grant you, but your own neighbours and 'British' countrymen lead the charge. Your problems come from within, mate, don't blame Eire.



Your 'distict' culture intrigues me. From my POV its fear-based, uncompromising and dogmatic. It defines itself, not by what it stands for, but by what it stands against. It revels in past military glories, the murder of Catholics and the disposession of the Irish from their land. The fact that the Orange Order and the 12th of July Marches are its corner stones speak volumes of what a bigoted, hateful and cynical 'culture' it is. Partition has allowed this mindset to fester - you need to look to the south to see the positive integration of all those who call this island home and are proud to call themselves Irish.
This is just my POV and I would really like someone to convince me there is more to it than this.



Plenty of Irish people with British passports too.
Look if you are born in Ireland, live here - your Irish. It may turn your stomach to have to be associated with the rest of us but tough, deal with it.
You can be British too - in fact since 'British-ness' is more a concept than a nationality, I don't see how you can be British without being also English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh etc.

if you can define your culture in a few sentences then you have a pretty poor culture, culture is pretty much undefinable, realesticaly it is only possiable to list parts of a culture but not the entire culture, yes orangism is part of unionist culture but so is the beatles or liverpool football club for that matter. As for being born in ireland last time i cheacked i was born in the internationally recgonized region known as northern ireland, anyway your were born in the British isles's so that must make you british, going by your own logic of course.
Still i am glad you have clarified the fact that in the event of a united ireland my culture will not only be looked down upon, sneered upon and generally villified, chances are the vast majorty of it will be banned anyway, moreover it seems going by some of your posts that the right to define yourself as you see fit ie British is also going to be denied us as well (funny thing is i thought the right to define yourself as you see fit was one of the key things about living in a democarcy)
Guess when you look at it there is nothing in a united ireland that would remotly interest the unionist community or benefit us. Funny thing is if we are so bad why on earth would you want to united with us in the first place. Oh hang on i forgot some of you made it quite clear that you would rather be rid of us, so whats it going to be then resettlement grants (sinn fein already put forward that idea back in the 80's) or will you even just dispence with that and just force us out.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Just to confirm. I went to a catholic school, we partly covered irish history at GCSE and A level. I learnt most of my Irish history myself. Irish history is not taught in Protestant schools. They are taught about British kings and queens. I'm sure junder would back me up on that one.

you are correct, has to do with an education act passed in 1920 something, the protestant churchs ceded all control of thier schools to the government including ownership of property, while the catholic schools retained control over thier school propertys which is why you have the CCMS today. These days protestant schools are really no different fron state schools across the UK and are taught the same carriculum, which is why as you said in protestant schools the history thats taught is mainly English, this is changing though, my English girlfriends 14 year old son has been learning Irish/Northern Irish history and he is at a English school.

K-9

junder wrote: »

if you can define your culture in a few sentences then you have a pretty poor culture, culture is pretty much undefinable, realesticaly it is only possiable to list parts of a culture but not the entire culture, yes orangism is part of unionist culture but so is the beatles or liverpool football club for that matter. As for being born in ireland last time i cheacked i was born in the internationally recgonized region known as northern ireland, anyway your were born in the British isles's so that must make you british, going by your own logic of course.
Still i am glad you have clarified the fact that in the event of a united ireland my culture will not only be looked down upon, sneered upon and generally villified, chances are the vast majorty of it will be banned anyway, moreover it seems going by some of your posts that the right to define yourself as you see fit ie British is also going to be denied us as well (funny thing is i thought the right to define yourself as you see fit was one of the key things about living in a democarcy)
Guess when you look at it there is nothing in a united ireland that would remotly interest the unionist community or benefit us. Funny thing is if we are so bad why on earth would you want to united with us in the first place. Oh hang on i forgot some of you made it quite clear that you would rather be rid of us, so whats it going to be then resettlement grants (sinn fein already put forward that idea back in the 80's) or will you even just dispence with that and just force us out.

To some, you are a minor little irritation. Ironically Maggie would love that simplistic view.

Godwinned!

Dannyboy83

Lads, for Christs sakes give the man a break, ye are taking some jokes totally out of context, why is he gonna hang around to talk to us if everyone wants to bite his nose off:mad:




junder,

I was asking Scottish people today about the Scottish language.

It seems that while Welsh and Irish went through a revival, Scottish is (finally) starting to take off again.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Scotsdialects.png
Apparently, even Cornish is growing again!

Anyway, since you are UlsterScots, I was wondering if you had thought about learning a dialect of Gaelic?
Ulster Gaelic or Scots Gaelic?

How do you think Unionists would feel about learning Gaelic, assuming that the Nationalists feel strongly about learning both languages in school (English & Gaelic)?
Do you agree that it could be used as a tool to bridge the culture gap?

i.e. Northern ireland needs to find a new common culture composed of two old ones. Gaelic could be a useful community bridge, given that it is native to both countries and undergoing a rebirth in a newly devolved Scotland
Besides, young people - protestant & catholic - would be united in their hatred of having to learn it like in the south :D

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Lads, for Christs sakes give the man a break, ye are taking some jokes totally out of context, why is he gonna hang around to talk to us if everyone wants to bite his nose off:mad:




junder,

I was asking Scottish people today about the Scottish language.

It seems that while Welsh and Irish went through a revival, Scottish is (finally) starting to take off again.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Scotsdialects.png
Apparently, even Cornish is growing again!

Anyway, since you are UlsterScots, I was wondering if you had thought about learning a dialect of Gaelic?
Ulster Gaelic or Scots Gaelic?

How do you think Unionists would feel about learning Gaelic, assuming that the Nationalists feel strongly about learning both languages in school (English & Gaelic)?
Do you agree that it could be used as a tool to bridge the culture gap?

i.e. Northern ireland needs to find a new common culture composed of two old ones. Gaelic could be a useful community bridge, given that it is native to both countries and undergoing a rebirth in a newly devolved Scotland
Besides, young people - protestant & catholic - would be united in their hatred of having to learn it like in the south :D

As it happens my first name is scottish gealic, however i don't think gealic is really a tool for reconcillation as it was hyjacked by the republican movement and turned into a political weapon, sayting that however gusty spence did learn irish but that was only to understand what the provies were saying in the cells next to his

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Lads, for Christs sakes give the man a break, ye are taking some jokes totally out of context, why is he gonna hang around to talk to us if everyone wants to bite his nose off:mad:




junder,

I was asking Scottish people today about the Scottish language.

It seems that while Welsh and Irish went through a revival, Scottish is (finally) starting to take off again.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Scotsdialects.png
Apparently, even Cornish is growing again!

Anyway, since you are UlsterScots, I was wondering if you had thought about learning a dialect of Gaelic?
Ulster Gaelic or Scots Gaelic?

How do you think Unionists would feel about learning Gaelic, assuming that the Nationalists feel strongly about learning both languages in school (English & Gaelic)?
Do you agree that it could be used as a tool to bridge the culture gap?

i.e. Northern ireland needs to find a new common culture composed of two old ones. Gaelic could be a useful community bridge, given that it is native to both countries and undergoing a rebirth in a newly devolved Scotland
Besides, young people - protestant & catholic - would be united in their hatred of having to learn it like in the south :D

Understanding and tolerance is the way to bulid bridges, as long as you vilifiy or run down a community and thier culture you will always put them on the defencesive, and you will never have reconcilation. However since people seem to be hangimg on my everyword i would like to point out thatr i personly have no issue with the gealic langauge, although if you are a gealic speaker you really should take issue with the way sinn fein mangles it up in stormont, i know a few irish speakers myself and they cringe everytime old gerry gets up and gives us his best gealic. I would like to point out that my perticler institution the Apprentice Boys has tried very hard to reach out to the other community with outreach programmes and the maiden city festival (which sadly is ending due to lack of funding).

Deedsie

Surely Sport should be the bridge to unite the three communities? Irish citizens, Nationalists in the North and Unionists?

We all share the island, isnt it about time we were united in other things than just sport.

Look what can be achieved when we are working together? On the Cusp of a grand slam. 3 Heineken cups in ten years.

The boxers in the olympics represent All Ireland.

elshambo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

There are provisions in the Good Friday Agreement for unification.
Basically they give it on a plate, with probably war reparations ("reconstruction funds") as well.

That'll only happen as long as we keep the gun out of NI politics.
They'll never *be seen* to submit to terrorisim and I wouldn't blame them.

On the other hand, what will we do when we finally join with the North?

Possible problems:

• Irish state bankrupt
• 1 million unemployed
• Unionist parties would control over 1/3 the vote in an all Ireland council
• Loyalist terrorisim campaign
• Cost of anti-terrorrisim for Irish Government

+
Lots of people in the south either dont want or dont care about a united Ireland
+
Lots of people in the north either dont want or dont care about a united Ireland

and before the republicans start harping on
people are perfectly entitled to not want or not really care if ireland becomes united!

but yes we may see a 32 county ireland soon
What with County Fingal and County Bray side of Dublin(or what ever its called)
thats 28!

junder

Deedsie wrote: »

Surely Sport should be the bridge to unite the three communities? Irish citizens, Nationalists in the North and Unionists?

We all share the island, isnt it about time we were united in other things than just sport.

Look what can be achieved when we are working together? On the Cusp of a grand slam. 3 Heineken cups in ten years.

The boxers in the olympics represent All Ireland.

The problem with the Irish rugby team is that it is promoted as the irish rugby team, with all the trappings of irishness such as the tricolour and is not inculsive of the unionist identy. People need to realise that both communitys can still have their own traditions without having to constantly be forced together, we just need to learn to be respectful of the differences rather then papering over them, lets leanr to celebrate diversty rather then constantly seeing it as a threat

Deedsie

junder wrote: »

The problem with the Irish rugby team is that it is promoted as the irish rugby team, with all the trappings of irishness such as the tricolour and is not inculsive of the unionist identy. People need to realise that both communitys can still have their own traditions without having to constantly be forced together, we just need to learn to be respectful of the differences rather then papering over them, lets leanr to celebrate diversty rather then constantly seeing it as a threat

I think diversity is great.

Can i ask you, do you think Northern Ireland should have a flag and an anthem to represent the communities of Northern Ireland?

I am not trying to rise you with that question. I think St Patricks Cross would be a reasonable alternative? And perhaps the Derry Air?

LordSutch

junder wrote: »

The problem with the Irish rugby team is that it is promoted as the irish rugby team, with all the trappings of irishness such as the tricolour and is not inculsive of the unionist identy.

Yeah, I've noticed that too, the Tricolour is slowly creeping in, even though it is not officially affiliated to the combined Ireland Rugby team, but good to see several large Ulster Banner Flags in the crowd at Irelands last match.

By the way, what happens when God Save the Queen is played at a match, are the Northern Ireland players permitted to sing along too?

junder

Deedsie wrote: »

I think diversity is great.

Can i ask you, do you think Northern Ireland should have a flag and an anthem to represent the communities of Northern Ireland?

I am not trying to rise you with that question. I think St Patricks Cross would be a reasonable alternative? And perhaps the Derry Air?

I have no problem answering questions asked in good faith. personnly would not have any real problem with st patricks flag since it is part of the union flag, but i suppose its a mote point since Northern ireland does not have an offical flag since stormont was suspended in the 70's as for the Anthem while we are part of the UK the offical anthem will always be 'God Save the Queen' as it is for all the parts of the UK for an unoffical anthem i don't really know not really given it much though, how about 'teenage kicks'

elshambo

junder wrote: »

as for the Anthem while we are part of the UK the offical anthem will always be 'God Save the Queen' as it is for all the parts of the UK for an unoffical anthem i don't really know not really given it much though, how about 'teenage kicks'

how about 'Alternative Ulster'?

Erin Go Brath

junder wrote: »

The problem with the Irish rugby team is that it is promoted as the irish rugby team, with all the trappings of irishness such as the tricolour and is not inculsive of the unionist identy. People need to realise that both communitys can still have their own traditions without having to constantly be forced together, we just need to learn to be respectful of the differences rather then papering over them, lets leanr to celebrate diversty rather then constantly seeing it as a threat

It is a team representing Ireland after all. Irelands Call is used as the anthem and politics has been taken out of the team as much as is possible. In fairness if any national team plays its bound to engender some amount of patriotism in fans and players. It unfair to ask people to suppress this, as its part of supporting any national team.

There was a very interesting program relating to this on Setanta last week. Former rugby player Donal Lenihan was talking about his time playing rugby for Ireland and the relationships between the unionists and nationalists on the team. During his time playing there were 5 or 6 unionists on the team including RUC members and they all got on really well with the Southerners and had mutual respect for each other. He also said that the Unionist lads used sit together on the team coach and sing songs such as 'The Sash' while the nationalist lads would sing their songs and the intra-group banter was good fun and good natured.
He claims the Unionist players had no objection to Amhrán na bhFiann been played before games, but the rugby body decided on a neutral anthem. On one farcial occasion the Rose of Tralee was played as Irelands anthem in Cardiff, such was the confusion over what to play.

All told it doesn't look like rabid fenians ramming their culture down someones throats as you see it!

jimmmy

T runner wrote: »

You see the problem I have is where a people are viewed as underclass etc. because they come from a particular religion.

I have that problem too. By the way, you have not answered the question about
where did you learn that all unionists are taught to be sectarian bigots, was it at school?
T-runner earlier you wrote " Protestants are told from an early age that Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc. and under no circumstances are we to be ruled in a united Ireland. " A bit rich / ironic considering many a time a "black" Protestant ( for example if he / she was wanting to marry a Catholic) was told his / her religion was " inferior/underclass/bad " / not "the one true religion etc"., ..."Prods" have "inbred sectarianism" ( your phrase, not mine) etc. Who is more often viewing who as "underclass" lol ?

T runner wrote: »

Judging by the inbred sectarianism, epitomised by some really horrible jokes about Taigs which are accepted in the Loyalist communities. These type of jokes simply are not acceptable in catholic communities.

I have heard hundred of jokes from both Protestant and Catholic Northeners over the years, and never heard any "really horrible jokes about Taigs". However, there may be some, just as the Germans joke about the Polish, Dubliners about Kerrymen, etc. If you want to hear some charming comments, you should come on south and go to a Wolfe Tones concert, or come to a pub during a Rangers or England football match.

junder

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

It is a team representing Ireland after all. Irelands Call is used as the anthem and politics has been taken out of the team as much as is possible. In fairness if any national team plays its bound to engender some amount of patriotism in fans and players. It unfair to ask people to suppress this, as its part of supporting any national team.

There was a very interesting program relating to this on Setanta last week. Former rugby player Donal Lenihan was talking about his time playing rugby for Ireland and the relationships between the unionists and nationalists on the team. During his time playing there were 5 or 6 unionists on the team including RUC members and they all got on really well with the Southerners and had mutual respect for each other. He also said that the Unionist lads used sit together on the team coach and sing songs such as 'The Sash' while the nationalist lads would sing their songs and the intra-group banter was good fun and good natured.
He claims the Unionist players had no objection to Amhrán na bhFiann been played before games, but the rugby body decided on a neutral anthem. On one farcial occasion the Rose of Tralee was played as Irelands anthem in Cardiff, such was the confusion over what to play.

All told it doesn't look like rabid fenians ramming their culture down someones throats as you see it!

who said anything about rabid fenians ramming thier culture down anybodys neck, i merely stated why i don't identify with the team

junder

elshambo wrote: »

how about 'Alternative Ulster'?

that would work for me

Rock99

We will never come close to seeing a united Ireland while them dissident bastards are running around selling their drugs and killing police officers.