will we ever see a 32 county republic

Dannyboy83

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

It is a team representing Ireland after all. Irelands Call is used as the anthem and politics has been taken out of the team as much as is possible. In fairness if any national team plays its bound to engender some amount of patriotism in fans and players. It unfair to ask people to suppress this, as its part of supporting any national team.

There was a very interesting program relating to this on Setanta last week. Former rugby player Donal Lenihan was talking about his time playing rugby for Ireland and the relationships between the unionists and nationalists on the team. During his time playing there were 5 or 6 unionists on the team including RUC members and they all got on really well with the Southerners and had mutual respect for each other. He also said that the Unionist lads used sit together on the team coach and sing songs such as 'The Sash' while the nationalist lads would sing their songs and the intra-group banter was good fun and good natured.
He claims the Unionist players had no objection to Amhrán na bhFiann been played before games, but the rugby body decided on a neutral anthem. On one farcial occasion the Rose of Tralee was played as Irelands anthem in Cardiff, such was the confusion over what to play.

All told it doesn't look like rabid fenians ramming their culture down someones throats as you see it!

Jesus sake.
you were doing so well there, but you just couldn't resist getting the heel in at the end, could you?

I have to admit tho, its encouraging stuff - the pair of ye have actually communicated a point to each other instead of arguing:)
Thats progress.:D

If the pair of ye have learned to discuss stuff, there may still be hope for North & South Korea yet

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

I have no problem answering questions asked in good faith. personnly would not have any real problem with st patricks flag since it is part of the union flag, but i suppose its a mote point since Northern ireland does not have an offical flag since stormont was suspended in the 70's as for the Anthem while we are part of the UK the offical anthem will always be 'God Save the Queen' as it is for all the parts of the UK for an unoffical anthem i don't really know not really given it much though, how about 'teenage kicks'

PMSL, that would be a good idea actually:)

Deedsie

Camelot wrote: »

Yeah, I've noticed that too, the Tricolour is slowly creeping in, even though it is not officially affiliated to the combined Ireland Rugby team, but good to see several large Ulster Banner Flags in the crowd at Irelands last match.

By the way, what happens when God Save the Queen is played at a match, are the Northern Ireland players permitted to sing along too?

Who could stop them singing?

The Tri-Colour isnt creeping in. I have brought a Tri-colour to matches since i was a kid. Every year since 97' I see people from unionist backgrounds with a Northern Ireland flags at Irish matches.

It doesnt really bother me.

Scotland have there own Flag and anthem, Wales have there own flag and anthem. Northern Ireland should have the same. It is just blindingly unfair to the nationalist community that they are not represented by anything other than GSTQ and the Union Flag.

No wonder they respond to the Tri-colour when there is no other alternative.

Its a two way street guys. Change is needed.

And hopefully someday we will be able have both the Northern Flag and Tricolour fly side by side all over the world.

And have either both anthems played or alternate between the two.

Now surely that is better than our current situation of papering over the cracks the make us different?

We should be celebrating what makes us one. We all want Ireland to do well.

Erin Go Brath

junder wrote: »

who said anything about rabid fenians ramming thier culture down anybodys neck, i merely stated why i don't identify with the team

You said as much here.

junder wrote: »

The problem with the Irish rugby team is that it is promoted as the irish rugby team, with all the trappings of irishness such as the tricolour and is not inculsive of the unionist identy.

junder

Deedsie wrote: »

Who could stop them singing?

The Tri-Colour isnt creeping in. I have brought a Tri-colour to matches since i was a kid. Every year since 97' I see people from unionist backgrounds with a Northern Ireland flags at Irish matches.

It doesnt really bother me.

Scotland have there own Flag and anthem, Wales have there own flag and anthem. Northern Ireland should have the same. It is just blindingly unfair to the nationalist community that they are not represented by anything other than GSTQ and the Union Flag.

No wonder they respond to the Tri-colour when there is no other alternative.

Its a two way street guys. Change is needed.

And hopefully someday we will be able have both the Northern Flag and Tricolour fly side by side all over the world.

And have either both anthems played or alternate between the two.

Now surely that is better than our current situation of papering over the cracks the make us different?

We should be celebrating what makes us one. We all want Ireland to do well.

i actully support England over Ireland i am afriad

Deedsie

junder wrote: »

i actully support England over Ireland i am afriad

Why would you be afraid of that. I have no problem with England. Did us a massive favour on Sunday eliminating the French threat to the championship.

junder

Deedsie wrote: »

Who could stop them singing?

The Tri-Colour isnt creeping in. I have brought a Tri-colour to matches since i was a kid. Every year since 97' I see people from unionist backgrounds with a Northern Ireland flags at Irish matches.

It doesnt really bother me.

Scotland have there own Flag and anthem, Wales have there own flag and anthem. Northern Ireland should have the same. It is just blindingly unfair to the nationalist community that they are not represented by anything other than GSTQ and the Union Flag.

No wonder they respond to the Tri-colour when there is no other alternative.

Its a two way street guys. Change is needed.

And hopefully someday we will be able have both the Northern Flag and Tricolour fly side by side all over the world.

And have either both anthems played or alternate between the two.

Now surely that is better than our current situation of papering over the cracks the make us different?

We should be celebrating what makes us one. We all want Ireland to do well.

Why does it have to be in a irish context then why not a british one, this celebration of onesness?

junder

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

You said as much here.

can you actully provide qoutes were i used the words rabid fenians ramming thier culture down our throats

Deedsie

junder wrote: »

Why does it have to be in a irish context then why not a british one, this celebration of onesness?

Not really possible to answer that. I can only speak for myself. I dont want to go down the 5 million to 1 Million population road. We are all from the Island of Ireland thats what we should focus on. Can you not keep the British or Irish debate out of it?

I am a proud Irish man, nothing British about me. But i can understand why another man would be proud of his nationality. French are proud to be French, English are proud to be English. British... etc.

Just support island of Ireland team together? If we cant support each other in something like sport then the GFA is a sham.

Hypothetically? What happens if in 2021 after the census, Nationalism has overtaken Unionism in the six counties? And Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail (SDLP) has a 53% majority in Stormont? Calls for a referendum on Unity?

We might have to learn to live together in relative peace and harmony or out come the guns again.

diverdriver

i actully support England over Ireland i am afriad

Now why would you do that? Would a Welshman support England, would a Scotsman?

The problem with the Irish rugby team is that it is promoted as the irish rugby team

That because it is the Irish rugby team, not the Republic of Ireland rugby team.

To me that smacks of a difficulty over identity. The kind of difficulty which sees NI televsion stations consistently refer to 'local' this and 'local' that.

Just accept the ambiguity, no one is going to take away your British citizenship because you admit you might have an Irish identity.

Deedsie:

Hypothetically? What happens if in 2021 after the census, Nationalism has overtaken Unionism in the six counties? And Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail (SDLP) has a 53% majority in Stormont? Calls for a referendum on Unity?

I cannot see that happening, if NI settles down into a peaceful few years with the bigotry fading. Many from a traditionally Catholic or Nationalist background would see no reason to unite with the Republic. If they can maintain their Irishness and not suffer discrimination there would be no good reason to join the Republic. In a sense it's already happening. One of the biggest mistakes that the Unionists in the past made in their paranoia was to create the very situation they feared. By ensuring Catholics were second class citizens they created resentment and when the over reacted to civil rights protests they re-created the very monster the feared most. The IRA. Before that the IRA was a fading group of old men with no real support.

As long as that mistake isn't made again, there will be no reason for anyone to want a united Ireland. If anything it would be a disadvantage for many. In my opinion there is no short term possibility of a united Ireland, more likely a more 'Irish' North still within the realm of the UK but with strong connections to the rest of Ireland.

However it could get very interesting if Scotland opted out of the UK at some point in the future. If if was up to the English electorate they would kick everyone out.

junder

Deedsie wrote: »

Not really possible to answer that. I can only speak for myself. I dont want to go down the 5 million to 1 Million population road. We are all from the Island of Ireland thats what we should focus on. Can you not keep the British or Irish debate out of it?

I am a proud Irish man, nothing British about me. But i can understand why another man would be proud of his nationality. French are proud to be French, English are proud to be English. British... etc.

Just support island of Ireland team together? If we cant support each other in something like sport then the GFA is a sham.

Hypothetically? What happens if in 2021 after the census, Nationalism has overtaken Unionism in the six counties? And Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail (SDLP) has a 53% majority in Stormont? Calls for a referendum on Unity?

We might have to learn to live together in relative peace and harmony or out come the guns again.

And i am a proud British man nothing irish about me hence the reason i don't suppport the Irish rugby team, i am glad you are proud of your country i have no issue that you are proud of your country but its not my country. I have no hatred towards the Irish rugby team and i wish them the best of sportsmens luck in the 6 nations but i don't support them. If you are really serious about living together in peace then you aree going to have to accept my Britishness and stop trying to tell me i am Irish all the time.

junder

diverdriver wrote: »

Now why would you do that? Would a Welshman support England, would a Scotsman? That because it is the Irish rugby team, not the Republic of Ireland rugby team.

To me that smacks of a difficulty over identity. The kind of difficulty which sees NI televsion stations consistently refer to 'local' this and 'local' that.

Just accept the ambiguity, no one is going to take away your British citizenship because you admit you might have an Irish identity.

As it happens my father was English which would make me half English

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

And i am a proud British man nothing irish about me hence the reason i don't suppport the Irish rugby team, i am glad you are proud of your country i have no issue that you are proud of your country but its not my country. I have no hatred towards the Irish rugby team and i wish them the best of sportsmens luck in the 6 nations but i don't support them. If you are really serious about living together in peace then you aree going to have to accept my Britishness and stop trying to tell me i am Irish all the time.

But how can you reconcile this in the context of a team?

Erin Go Brath

junder wrote: »

can you actully provide qoutes were i used the words rabid fenians ramming thier culture down our throats

I was just paraphrasing, granted i may have indulged in a bit of hyperbole i'll give you that. However you still haven't admitted that your claim that the Irish team is not inculsive of the unionist identy is in fact a bogus one.

Dannyboy83

junder I don't get it.

My sister's partner is German, he supports Ireland.
My brother's partner is Swedish, she support Ireland.
My GF is Russo-Lithuanian, she supports Ireland.

If you live on this island, why would you not support a team representing the whole island? (not just the republic)

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

But how can you reconcile this in the context of a team?

What about the British and Irish Lions

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

junder I don't get it.

My sister's partner is German, he supports Ireland.
My brother's partner is Swedish, she support Ireland.
My GF is Russo-Lithuanian, she supports Ireland.

If you live on this island, why would you not support a team representing the whole island? (not just the republic)

fair play to them, they have everyright to support a team of thier choosing

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

fair play to them, they have everyright to support a team of thier choosing

Fair enough, it just strikes me as odd.
I mean, there are plenty of Turks in Germany who support both the German team and the Turkish team.

Dannyboy83

I just don't see why it would have to be mutually exclusive, thats all.

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Fair enough, it just strikes me as odd.
I mean, there are plenty of Turks in Germany who support both the German team and the Turkish team.

As it happens mate i am not really big into sport in the first place, i don't follow any perticuler football team, really could not tell you what the off side rule means for instance.

diverdriver

As it happens my father was English which would make me half English

Well naturally, that explains is, that's your identity. My brother in law is half English, lives in Ireland and is all 'Sarf' London. When he talks about 'us' in soccer terms he means England. It doesn't stop him supporting Ireland though. Yet, he doesn't really see himself as Irish. He is British as far as he's concerned.

On the othe hand, half of U2 could be considered English. But the embrace their Irishness as such.

Each to his own I suppose.

Deedsie

Did any of ye ever see the play "A night in November"

If people give each other a chance there is very little difference between the two communities.

Im not forcing anyone to be Irish, we have a few i wish they were anything but. However, we are all, all of us born on this island Irish. There was no ethnic group of Northern Irish distinct from the rest in 1920.

It is a creation resulting from partition. We were Irish when we were all in the UK and we are all still Irish with 26 counties independent of it.

T runner

junder wrote: »

i actully support England over Ireland i am afriad

Why would you support another team over your own? Why should we believe unuinsist are trying to mend relationships on this Island when they so clearly detest anything remotely Irish?

junder wrote: »

Why does it have to be in a irish context then why not a british one, this celebration of onesness?

Because none of us are British! The Scots hardly regard themselves as British anymore in the political sense and they actually are British.

junder wrote: »

so were did you learn that all unionists are taught is to be sectarian bigots, did you learn that at school?

I never said all unionists are sectarian bigots.

This article by a Northern Protestant may clear it up.

donegal seemed pretty forgein to me when riding through the gaeltacht, don't speak gealic so found it pretty hard to understand the road signs, might as well have been written in german or outer monglian for that matter so

Are you still saying you find Donegal and the ROI to be completely foreign to you: that you have as much in common with people with the ROI as to Outer Mongolians.

BTW you were complaining that the ROI would not respect customs:
Heres the current articles 2 and 3.
I read this to mean all customs are guaranteed under Irish Law.
It would also probably mean that anyone living in Ireland would be allowed to hold a British passport and if it happened I also reckoned that anyone holding an Irish passport could be defined as Irish or British.

I have heard hundred of jokes from both Protestant and Catholic Northeners over the years, and never heard any "really horrible jokes about Taigs".

I don't really believe you.

Dannyboy83

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

There are provisions in the Good Friday Agreement for unification.
Basically they give it on a plate, with probably war reparations ("reconstruction funds") as well.

That'll only happen as long as we keep the gun out of NI politics.
They'll never *be seen* to submit to terrorisim and I wouldn't blame them.

On the other hand, what will we do when we finally join with the North?

Possible problems:

• Irish state bankrupt
• 1 million unemployed
• Unionist parties would control over 1/3 the vote in an all Ireland council
• Loyalist terrorisim campaign
• Cost of anti-terrorrisim for Irish Government

just read the first page of this thread correct me if i am wrong

northern ireland population on a 2008 estimate is 1.75 million
with the unionists at circa 55% that gives them just under 1million
republic of ireland population on a 2008 est is 4.4 million

that leaves the unionist with just under 1 million in an all ireland population of 6.15 million

under 1/6 of an influence, where did the 1/3 come from

junder

Deedsie wrote: »

Did any of ye ever see the play "A night in November"

If people give each other a chance there is very little difference between the two communities.

Im not forcing anyone to be Irish, we have a few i wish they were anything but. However, we are all, all of us born on this island Irish. There was no ethnic group of Northern Irish distinct from the rest in 1920.

It is a creation resulting from partition. We were Irish when we were all in the UK and we are all still Irish with 26 counties independent of it.

I would agree with you up until the creation of northern ireland we were all irish 1921 changed that, but its not something new its happened in every country in the world, were once you had one identy something has happened that has split it and new identys have formed. Your irishness is not an issue for me, i belive you are perfect;y entitled to define yourself as irish and celebrate your irishness free from intimidation or persecution, i just wish for the same rights to celebrate my Britishness.
For instance my identy is strongly ulster-scot, My family were border reivers, who were exiled to ulster by king james for our reiving activerties along the border with england, there are even songs about my family in scotland as we were one of the biggest reiving familes, did you know that in my family the tradition was for new borns when they were chrisnened the master hand was left unblessed so unhollowed blows could by struck with thier sword arm. Once a priest was traveling my family lands and he comment on the lack of churchs by asking if there were no christains here, the reply was no were are all (family name) here, this is my traditional background

junder

T runner wrote: »

Why would you support another team over your own? Why should we believe unuinsist are trying to mend relationships on this Island when they so clearly detest anything remotely Irish?



Because none of us are British! The Scots hardly regard themselves as British anymore in the political sense and they actually are British.


I never said all unionists are sectarian bigots.

This article by a Northern Protestant may clear it up.





Are you still saying you find Donegal and the ROI to be completely foreign to you: that you have as much in common with people with the ROI as to Outer Mongolians.

BTW you were complaining that the ROI would not respect customs:
Heres the current articles 2 and 3.
I read this to mean all customs are guaranteed under Irish Law.
It would also probably mean that anyone living in Ireland would be allowed to hold a British passport and if it happened I also reckoned that anyone holding an Irish passport could be defined as Irish or British.



I don't really believe you.

There goes the tone of the discussion again now super-irish is here, shame i was kind of enjoying the dicussion.

junder

T runner wrote: »

Why would you support another team over your own? Why should we believe unuinsist are trying to mend relationships on this Island when they so clearly detest anything remotely Irish?



Because none of us are British! The Scots hardly regard themselves as British anymore in the political sense and they actually are British.


I never said all unionists are sectarian bigots.

This article by a Northern Protestant may clear it up.





Are you still saying you find Donegal and the ROI to be completely foreign to you: that you have as much in common with people with the ROI as to Outer Mongolians.

BTW you were complaining that the ROI would not respect customs:
Heres the current articles 2 and 3.
I read this to mean all customs are guaranteed under Irish Law.
It would also probably mean that anyone living in Ireland would be allowed to hold a British passport and if it happened I also reckoned that anyone holding an Irish passport could be defined as Irish or British.



I don't really believe you.

As i have already pointed out i am half english which makes the english team as much my team as any other, you may not be British but i am, Deal with it

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

As it happens mate i am not really big into sport in the first place, i don't follow any perticuler football team, really could not tell you what the off side rule means for instance.

LOL, I'm the same myself mate.

Strongman/Weightlifting/Powerlifting - thats far more interesting for me

LordSutch

Deleted User wrote: »

just read the first page of this thread correct me if i am wrong, northern ireland population on a 2008 estimate is 1.75 million, with the unionists at circa 55% that gives them just under 1million, republic of ireland population on a 2008 est is 4.4 million

that leaves the unionist with just under 1 million in an all ireland population of 6.15 million

under 1/6 of an influence, where did the 1/3 come from

Or maybe just over the million mark, if you include Unionists from the South

jimmmy

T runner wrote: »

Why would you support another team over your own?

Why do more than a few people born in Scotland not support the Scottish football team, but instead wave tricolours and sing certain songs and wear celtic jerseys instead ?
If you want to see an example of people who "support another team over your own", go in to most pubs here in Ireland when England are playing and you will find examples of people supporting any team other than the English team. Not totally their fault ; it often has to do with the way they were indoctrinated / brought up. The way "history" was drummed / beaten in to many of us at school is well known. You do not see such racist bigotry as often in England ; most English people would support the Irish team if it was the Irish team playing (some continental side, for example).